David G. Healy

hey dude, if its good enough for Josiah Thompson, its good enough for you -- let's see your likeness, or are you a Lamson.... post your picture...

where's you photo Colby? Or are you Colby?

Craig Lamson

Oh yes..the hacks have had at it...Fetzer Costella, Four Arrows et al.

The debunking of Fetzers falsehoods and downright lies are here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FETZERclaimsDEBUNK/

I agree with Fetzer on one point...do the reading and the research yourself and come to your own conclusions.

_____________

your last sentence in your post above [finally, one beyond the 3rd grade level] a few of us can agree on-- thank you -- I'd also add, when future research is complete covering the discussed subject matter (and I certainly don't expect any from Lansom) please post with document cites supporting your theses pro and/or con... Lets see what these armchair pros are made of, shall we? The NTSB posted their results, Fetzer posted his and his teams -- we await yours and what's his name Colby's [retired attorney or is he the guy who sells souvienrs from Brazil, can't keep track of these newly risen pillars in research community] If the best you can do is point to NTSB findings ONLY, and can't take the Fetzer/Four Arrow/Costella findings point-by-point, displaying contrary support evidence, I hear nothing more than .john McAdams WCR supporting clone type rhetoric ... shall we see what you're made of... or will you be relegated to the 'noise maker hall of shame er, fame' peanut gallery?

Everyones a "hack" according to the Indiana drygoods photog. Gott'a love America, those without Wellstone subject matter credibility, overnight, become experts on his death, not to mention, additional incidents covering murder.... truck on Craigster... one should sell internet streaming tickets... if you had something, anything to show that wasn't thrown about here as opinion... so make a point-by-point case, who knows, I might learn something... Hell, you might get a book offer!

Len Colby dronned on:

[...]

Didn't I tell you he'd urge to buy his book!

have you read the book Mr. Colby? For that matter, any of the books?

[...]

Why did I say about him impugning the intelligence of those who disagree with him? First Pat and now Steve! Wow Jim you sure aren't doing yourself any favors! Tink and Bieter always said you were unpleasant!

have you read the book Mr. Colby? For that matter, any of the books? Or are you depending upon Dr. TINK'S review (tsk-tsk)

He called me an idiot too! But now I'm classified as disreputable!

as Gary Ag infers--- Warranistas abound... quite frankly many whom call themselves CTer's are nothing more than simple 'liars', protecting positions proferred by the WCR -- where do you fall Mr. Colby? Original research, covering, shall we say, difficult events a bit tough for those on the "right" these day's?

Have a nice day, oh - tell Dr. Tinster and Dr. Gary Ag their 399 work is excellent, worth a on-camera interview probably, GaryM?

Len

Post your original research/studies to a website (please provide the url) Evan. I'm sure the hubcap collector will participate. Official statements might go a long way, too -- then we'll discuss the merits of you and your teams efforts, PRO and CON -- till then, noise, nothing but noise..

Gillespie dronned on:

"I do not have personal real conversations with assholes." by JACK

"...saying things that they would not dare to say in a personal face-to-face setting." also by JACK

I would have thought the above to be an attempt at satire or irony if I hadn't known better by experiencing the speed bumps that Jack's exquisite prose places in the way of cogency.

But this is so often what we get. Here's a guy using the 'a' word and decrying a lack of civility at the same time. Then he says things he wouldn't dare say face-to-face while at the same time accusing others of saying things they wouldn't dare say face-to...well, I think you get the picture.

dgh01: NO, I for one don't get YOUR picture -- the term asshole would be considered 'civil' (in some circles) when it comes to what JWhite has suffered from his 'research' critics -- assholes like you haven't a clue. Attempts, not just threats have been made on his LIFE... getting the picture, newcomer?

The Progressives are good (great, actually) at the double standard. They're also good at getting angry at you real quickly (but it's SOOO righteous, you see, and YOU are to blame) and to get personal and nasty, as above. I refer you to any of the more recent Nic postings. Once these people have exposed themselves they hate you even more because of their own self-loathing and because they know you're on to them.

So, AHEM! That's about the extent of expletory spillage you'll get outta ME, guys.

dgh01: if you got anything worthwhile JG, were 'a waitin...

"And you David - you just like posting in the forum. You don't seem to add anything to the topic being discussed..." by Evan

Good call, Ev Man! This place reeks of THAT sort of thing as well. Touche. I still like perusing the topics but one has to wade through way too many Davids, Jacks, Nics, Pamelas et al - those who , literally, have never done anything meaningful outside the womb of academia and have absolutely NOTHING to offer but a continous stream of nonsense not worthy of teenage girl chatlines; the trading of drivel full of sound and fury and signifying...you guessed it.

dgh01: I anxiously await your first publication JG and remember 3 page coloring books DON'T count - btw, you forgot Ev's pal, you know, the hubcap collector from San Mateo, whats up with that?

Yesterday I saw perhaps the most outrageous and gratuitous speculation that I have yet encountered. It was on the Tippitt slaying sub-topic of the JFK assassination "debate", posted in January by something called Dixie Dea.

dgh01: Dixie has probably forgot more than you'll ever know about the investigation, for an old fart, you show no signs of wisdom - you don't have a clue about who is who in the research community...

Mr. Dale Myers wrote a very admirable book on this subject - one of the best investigative works I have ever read - entitled "With Malice." Originally, I thought that those placing messages in the wake of the Dea posting would have cringed had they read that book. But then, obviously they WOULDN'T have read the book. They got just what they wanted (Earlene Roberts And The Amazing Honking Horn, among other things..incredible, simply beyond belief!)...after all, sometimes a great notion.

dgh01: JG for your benefit most of us have had dealings with Mr. Myers and his work, especially over the last 10 years, his animations are the source of contention, hardly anyone pays much attention to the Tippit killing -- you need to ask questions before you show ignorance

Hey, progressives, listen up! An FBI report (I'll get you the specifics tomorrow) revealed that fibers from the discarded jacket matched fibers from LHO's shirt worn at the time of his arrest. Try this and be done with it: Oswald didn't kill JFK but he DID kill Tippitt. I would have, too, under the circumstances. It was the smart thing to do. Being unable or unwilling to accept that notion tells me there may be an agenda at work. Just a wild guess.

Check out the Dixie Dea thing, Evman. It is symptomatic of what one must scroll (what a euphemism, that) through: declarative statements absolutely shot from the hip for no other reason than the posters simply WANT to believe them and feel good in the process; those who think they have some sort of license to dispense garbage as if it were wisdom, a la Jack; wild theory put out for its own sake and a bizarre insistence by the practitioner that he or she somehow has a voice to be heard on serious matters. They're up past their bedtimes.

Ok. I'm starting a new topic on Jonestown at this junction. If you haven't read what I am going to attach, then you are in for an enlightened ride (Jim Hougan on that trail).

dgh01: with the uninformed posting this kinda nonsense, its no wonder why TGratz appears intelligent --so, JSimkin you can remove my response or edit it at your will - I certainly don't want to offend uninformed reich-wing sensibilities around here, roflmao

You go, guys.

dgh01: go where, they're already here? Oops! Maybe your the bench warming watercarrier for the varsity team?

Tim Gratz wrote:

A man respected by all Forum members, G. Gordon Liddy

[...]

____________

must of missed that endorsement by all Forum members, can you point to that, please!

Thanks...

Well, Len, it certainly seems you've done your homework.

Thanks! Pat 2 posts and you have already been subject to "The Wrath of Fetzer". Welcome to the club!

Have you looked into how someone could make an accident look like pilot error? While this may sound paranoid

That is Fetzer's department! I haven't looked into it but I don't think that Manchurian Candidate kamikaze pilot mind control exists yet. The stongest evidence for pilot error is the track record of the 2 pilots. Since Conry was one of two pilots that Wellstone requested [Wellstone appreciated the fact that he also did not like flying in bad weather] and Guess was only chosen as co-pilot because the company's first choice did not call them back - it would be hard to theorize that the CIA or whoever arranged for them to be the pilots.

It does not sound paranoid to me I just don't think it fits the facts.

the possibility exists in my mind that some right-wing fringe group...brought about his downfall.

I would not put such a thing beyond right-wing extremists but I don't think they would have been able to pull it off. Also the same logic would apply to the Bush Junta, if they wanted a Republican to take Wellstone's place killing him after he was [re]sworn in [if he actually won] would have made much more sense than before the election.

I'd feel the same way if Tom DeLay suddenly went down.

I wouldn't liberals are not as ruthless as the right.

Have you uncovered anything that makes you suspect foul play?

Not yet. I hope this doesn't sound close minded but until Fetzer or someone else presents me with a sliver of credible evidence I am not looking specifically for something I don't think exists. Research is often neutral, one does not know what they are going to find. The more I research the case the less credible such ideas become. In a similar vein I am not going to waste my time looking for evidence for "theories" such as intelligent design, Holocaust denial, the moon landings were faked!

I am therefore skeptical that all the negative comments on Dr. Fetzer's book were aroused purely by the quality of his analysis. I suspect that much of the criticism serves a political purpose.

Indeed many rightwingers did criticize Fetzer, with good reason I hate to say! Unfortunately they painted all liberals with the same brush. As you said "the real battle for America's heart and soul is no longer on the nightly news, which is bland as rice wafers, but is on the internet" this is why I think unfounded paranoia from our side should be avoided. Most people have a"boy who cried wolf" mentality. Every such book makes it that much harder for liberals to be taken seriously by moderates.

I think that Vincent Salandria is alarmingly paranoid, and am distressed that Dr. Fetzer seems to be following his lead

I couldn't agree more. What I think is especially telling is that not only does he find Salandria credible but he expects others to do so also. Fetzer also believes that the Dallas Historical Society and the city's parks department are participants in the JFK cover-up, the WTC collapse was a demolition job, a missile [not a plane] hit the Pentagon and that we probably did not go the moon. No wonder he finds a Holocaust denier like Bollyn credible!

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Let's cut to the chase -- when's your book being published, Mr. Colby?

I would imagine that the tens of thousands of people earning minimum wages or waiting for welfare checks would be trapped in Pompeii.

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It is a good comparison. The people of Pompeii got adequate warning when Vesuvius began erupting in 79 AD. However, thousands were killed by poisonous gases or by the falling buildings. Why? The rich got out but insisted on their slaves staying behind to protect their homes from looters. The vast majority of people killed in New Orleans were the descendants of slaves. They were not ordered to stay but they lacked the necessary funds to get out. Like the US government, the Romans believed in charity rather than a state run welfare system. One would have thought we would have made some advancements in 2000 years but in some countries that does not seem to be the case.

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Corporate Welfare in America far out strips 'Social Welfare'. Those that believe Social Welfare runs rampant in America need there heads examined --

To those that post in support of, 'the rise in social welfare, might they post the latest US census figures regarding said rise in "welfare rolls" -- translate that to a % of the Gross GDP and compare same to 1980/1990 figures...

Gratz wrote:

[...]

alkl

[...]

__________

alkl?? English please.

T.Gratz wrote:

[...]

I notice none of the "blame Bush" crowd has answered my questions about responsibility of the mayor for his failure to evacuate his city.

____________

your questions are irrelevant - Shrubs answers and FEMA responses are MOST relevant. Heads are going to roll, the GOP is on its way out! The WH, The Senate and, the HOUSE.

Perk up, Tim! When's that mid term election again?

Tim Gratz wrote:

[...]

the problem was created in the first place by the failure at the local level.

______________

kinda like Bhagdad, right?

It is a great pleasure to welcome Josiah Thompson to the forum. Six Seconds in Dallas remains the starting point for investigating gunshots from the grassy knoll, and one reason for this is that Six Seconds was the first book to publish the Moorman photo, a vital piece of evidence ignored and neglected (and denied?) by the Warren Commission.

The Moorman photo appears on page 126 of  Six Seconds, and a large blow-up appears on page 128. The photo shows a man's head looking over the wooden fence just to the right (from Moorman's POV) of Emmet Hudson. Although no weapon can be distinguished in the photo, this man is obviously within easy handgun range of JFK 

The man behind the fence, sometimes known as "Hatman"  is the subject of a fascinating new investigation by researcher Ricky Needham, and I would be most appreciative if Josiah Thompson  would comment on Needham's work as presented on the Lancer link below.

Needham has identified a figure in the Nix film whom he believes is the same person highlighted by Thompson in Six Seconds. Researcher Bill Miller, who has considerable expertise in the photo evidence, agrees with Needham, even though to my untrained eye the man behind the fence in the Moorman photo seems to be a seperate person to the person in the Nix film.. Needham and Miller attribute the apparent difference in location to the different angles from which Moorman & Nix took their films. 

Here is the Lancer link:

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.p...ing_type=search

and I look forward to Josiah Thompson's comments.

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There's considerable wavyness in the right side of the .gif animation. Clealy visible in the tree limbs. It consistently appears throughout left side of the animation ... the format these frames came from appears to be compressed NTSC videotape frames, the animation is compressed yet again, when posted... how you, Needham or any other film/photo researcher can determine these images display someone behind that wall is beyond me -- I'm sure it's not beyond BM [he'd do me the same favor ] -- BMiller, who at onetime specialized in creating .gif animations...

btw, that Josiah's way of saying: thanks, but no thanks!

Even the most casual reader can discern who is awash in vitriol... Fetzer or me. 

When Fetzer cannot win an argument on the merits, he attacks the motives and character of those who disagree with him.  The bare facts are that after ten years of trying to impugn the authenticity of the Zapruder film and other films taken in Dealey Plaza, Fetzer has failed.  Having failed he has to impugn my character by publishing faded speculation by Vince Salandria from 40 years ago.  All this is no more believable now than it was 40 years ago.  When he cannot handle the scrupulous dismembering of his actual arguments, he claims that I have illegitimate motives in defending the authenticity of the film.... that I based my forty-year-old book on it and therefore defend the film now.  My old book was based upon a review of all the evidence then available including much photo evidence from Dealey Plaza which I discovered in the Archives.  I defend the authenticity of the Zapruder film not to defend my old book but because the film is authentic and Fetzer's arguments to impugn its authenticity become sillier the longer he keeps at it.  It's simply a question of intellectual integrity, a quality one would think a professor of philosophy would value.

In discussing the Wellstone crash above in this thread, Fetzer  says that while a midshipman he "piloted a jet" aircraft and hence has a knowledge of aviation.  The reality is that a real pilot took him up in a jet for an exhibition flight while Fetzer was in college.  Fetzer never "piloted a jet" and his claim that he did shows how truly looney-tunes he has become.

He fled another site set up to discuss the Wellstone crash and here, as usual, he means to substitute vitriol and an attempt at character assassination for argument. 

I'm going on vacation.  Professor Fetzer can remain stewing in his juices!!

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I see you haven't lost your magical touch .... roflmao! Some things NEVER change

p.s. whatever happended to the revision of 6 Seconds we heard so much about, few years back?

DHealy

Tim Gratz wrote:

[...]

Makes my debate with Robert Charles-Dunne pale in comparison!

___________________

Ah, praytell, what debate was that?

as for JosiahT:

Welcome Dr. Tink, we can discuss the Z-film anytime you like... I promise not to bring up the GANG!

David, your post did not, of course, answer the question I posted which I assume is of some relevance in asssessing blame if that is what we want to spend our time doing.

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No politics - No blame, here. Just talk shows and newsreel footage -- And a whole lot of GOP Dancing around the issue.

Think Rep. Billy will be switching back to the Democratic party anytime soon? When's that midterm election again?

No blame here, I suspect the Black Cacus might feel a bit different... Karl, oh, KARL! Where are you?

Is it correct that Bush was urging a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans and the local authorities (including the Governor) resisted?  Presumably, the earlier the evacuation began the more people would have been evacuated.

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Mr Gratz,

I do believe you have FEAR for the Grand Old Party

pucker up -- Karl Rove will think of something, SOMETIME...

I believe I'll sign off after the last two. It shouldn't be the "politics of Katrina". You are all missing the point. There ARE troops there. There ARE supplies and people who care. Unfortunately, the countries that owe the US the most (Germany and France) offer nothing. Perhaps it's because Chirac just can't SEE the big picture. Hopefully that is being fixed. I leave you all to your political squabblings, your impertinent opinions whil those that you debate ABOUT perish.

Good day and God Bless.

Carrie

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The GOP is in major damage control Ms. Carrie -- there is NO political sqabbling, unnecessary dead are NOT impertinent opinions -- if the current GOP leadership below the Mason Dixon Line/Wash D.C. don't wake up ...

When did you say that next election was?

What is FEMA, again? Who might fall on their sword tomorrow?

I just finished reading Tom Purvis' posts (on the previous page on this thread).  They were excellent and demonstrated why Mississippi does not face the disaster that Louisiana does.  Mississippi enforced a mandatory evacuation.  Louisiana did not.

Perhaps the response of the federal government could have been quicker but I think Tom has effectively made the point I was trying to make: that we face the crisis in Louisiana precisely because the local officials failed in their responsibility.  And as noted in my previous post, only a few days ago the Governor of Louisiana was frustrating the efforts of the federal government to assume total control over the operation.

John claimed on the previous page that the problem is that US citizens are not taxed high enough to support adequate federal resources.  Well, my Republican spirit tells me that normally it is the government closest to the scene that is best able to handle a crisis.  I really don't think the problem is that FEMA lacked the financial resources.  John claims that because of inadequate tax dollars resources were not available to evacuate  the citizens of New Orleans.  But that is just not the case.  The buses were all there, parked.  The City of New Orleans simply failed to use the resources available to it to do what Mississippi did.  As a result, its citizens died or are now suffering.  The cause was not a lack of money, John.  On either the city or federal level.

And Tom has wisely pointed out that there may have been economic factors involved in the failures of the City of New Orleans and the State of Louisiana.

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Thank GOD for a Repugnican, by-the-way, best let Rumsfeld know he looks like an idiot in that suit cheering on the troops...

Shrub has met his Waterloo...Where-oh-where is the Christian right? Ya know, the M O R A L majority? Truck loads of water sitting on a freeway in the south, won't move till authorized, all the 'authorizers' are posing for photos while townspeople need a drink of potable water -- you got a world class cluster f*** underway, Mr. Gratz! How will Karl Rove, ole buddy, fix this ONE?

F E M A? What's FEMA?

Another article which I hope will improve the knowledge about Katrin disaster in New Orleans.

And which I hope will end the tries to politicised the catastrophy.

Tnhe article is from New York Times and could be found at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/national...artner=homepage

September 2, 2005

Government Saw Flood Risk but Not Levee Failure

By SCOTT SHANE and ERIC LIPTON

WASHINGTON, Sept. 1 - When Michael D. Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, returned in January from a tour of the tsunami devastation in Asia, he urgently gathered his aides to prepare for a similar catastrophe at home.

"New Orleans was the No. 1 disaster we were talking about," recalled Eric L. Tolbert, then a top FEMA official. "We were obsessed with New Orleans because of the risk."

Disaster officials, who had drawn up dozens of plans and conducted preparedness drills for years, had long known that the low-lying city was especially vulnerable. But despite all the warnings, Hurricane Katrina overwhelmed the very government agencies that had rehearsed for such a calamity. On Thursday, as the flooded city descended into near-anarchy, frantic local officials blasted the federal and state emergency response as woefully sluggish and confused.

"We're in our fifth day and adequate help to quell the situation has not arrived yet," said Edwin P. Compass III, the New Orleans police superintendent.

The response will be dissected for years. But on Thursday, disaster experts and frustrated officials said a crucial shortcoming may have been the failure to predict that the levees keeping Lake Pontchartrain out of the city would be breached, not just overflow.

They also said that evacuation measures were inadequate, leaving far too many city residents behind to suffer severe hardships and, in some cases, join marauding gangs.

Large numbers of National Guard troops should have been deployed on flooded streets early in the disaster to keep order, the critics said. And some questioned whether the federal government's intense focus on terrorism had distracted from planning practical steps to cope with a major natural disaster.

Disaster experts acknowledged that the impact of Hurricane Katrina posed unprecedented difficulties. "There are amazing challenges and obstacles," said Joe Becker, the top disaster response official at the American Red Cross.

Under the circumstances, Mr. Becker said, the government response "has been nothing short of heroic."

But he added that the first, life-saving phase of hurricane response, which usually lasts a matter of hours, in this case was stretching over days.

While some in New Orleans fault FEMA - Terry Ebbert, homeland security director for New Orleans, called it a "hamstrung" bureaucracy - others say any blame should be more widely spread. Local, state and federal officials, for example, have cooperated on disaster planning. In 2000, they studied the impact of a fictional "Hurricane Zebra"; last year they drilled with "Hurricane Pam."

Neither exercise expected the levees to fail. In an interview Thursday on "Good Morning America," President Bush said, "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." He added, "Now we're having to deal with it, and will."

Some lapses may have occurred because of budget cuts. For example, Mr. Tolbert, the former FEMA official, said that "funding dried up" for follow-up to the 2004 Hurricane Pam exercise, cutting off work on plans to shelter thousands of survivors.

Brian Wolshon, an engineering professor at Louisiana State University who served as a consultant on the state's evacuation plan, said little attention was paid to moving out New Orleans's "low-mobility" population - the elderly, the infirm and the poor without cars or other means of fleeing the city, about 100,000 people.

At disaster planning meetings, he said, "the answer was often silence."

Inevitably, the involvement of dozens of agencies complicated the response. FEMA and its parent agency, the Department of Homeland Security, were in charge of coordinating 14 federal agencies with state and local authorities. But Mayor C. Ray Nagin of New Orleans complained Wednesday on CNN that there were too many cooks involved.

Unlike a terrorist attack or an earthquake, Hurricane Katrina gave considerable notice of its arrival. It was on Thursday, Aug. 25, that a tropical storm that had formed in the Bahamas reached hurricane strength and got its name.

The same day, Katrina made landfall in Florida, dumping up to 18 inches of rain. It then moved slowly out over the warm waters of the Gulf of Mexico, growing by the hour.

Though its path remained uncertain, the Gulf Coast was clearly threatened, with New Orleans a possible target. Officials from the Pentagon, the National Guard, the Army Corps of Engineers, FEMA and the Homeland Security Department said they were taking steps to prepare for the hurricane's arrival.

Army Corps personnel, in charge of maintaining the levees in New Orleans, started to secure the locks, floodgates and other equipment, said Greg Breerwood, deputy district engineer for project management at the Army Corps of Engineers.

"We knew if it was going to be a Category 5, some levees and some flood walls would be overtopped," he said. "We never did think they would actually be breached." The uncertainty of the storm's course affected Pentagon planning.

"We did not have precision on where it would make landfall," said Lt. Gen. H. Steven Blum, the head of the National Guard Bureau. "It could have been anywhere from Texas all the way over to Florida."

Some 10,000 National Guard troops were mobilized, 7,000 of them in Louisiana and Mississippi. But the Defense Department could not put soldiers and equipment directly in the possible path of the storm, General Blum said.

On Saturday, at the urging of FEMA, Mr. Bush declared an emergency in Louisiana, allowing the agency to promise financial assistance to state and local governments and to move ready-to-eat meals, medicine, ice, tarpaulins, water and other supplies to the region.

By Sunday, Katrina had become a Category 5 hurricane, with winds of 175 miles per hour. The president extended the emergency declaration to Mississippi and Alabama. Mayor Nagin, who had urged New Orleans residents to flee on Saturday, ordered a mandatory evacuation.

It would have been up to local officials, a FEMA spokeswoman said, to hire buses to move people without transportation out of the city.

Rodney Braxton, the chief lobbyist for New Orleans, said many of the city's poorest "had nowhere to go outside the region and no way to get there." He added: "And there wasn't enough police power to go to each house to say, 'You have to go, come with me.' "

In a city with so many residents living in poverty, the hurricane came at the worst possible time: the end of the month, when those depending on public assistance are waiting for their next checks to be mailed on the first of the month. Without the checks, many residents didn't have money for gasoline, bus fare or lodging.

City officials said they provided free transportation from pick-up points publicized on television, radio and by people shouting through megaphones on the streets. In addition to the Superdome, officials opened schools and the convention center as shelters.

Mr. Braxton said he believed the city was "aggressive enough" in conducting the evacuation. "We had everything we thought we needed in place," he said. "I don't think anybody could ever plan for the magnitude that Katrina ended up being."

But Susan Cutter, a geography professor at the University of South Carolina and an emergency preparedness expert, said Mayor Nagin should have ordered a mandatory evacuation on Thursday or Friday.

"Evacuation is a precaution," she said. "I don't think they would have taken a political hit if they had ordered it, and it helped."

While New Orleans residents fled the city or gathered in the Superdome, federal agencies positioned search and rescue teams and medical assistance teams from Tennessee to Texas, according to Michael Chertoff, secretary of homeland security.

Before it made landfall on Monday, the storm turned slightly to the east, avoiding a direct hit on New Orleans. The winds had eased slightly to 140 miles per hour, reducing Katrina's strength to Category 4, and officials counted themselves lucky.

But on Tuesday, when the levees breached, a desperate situation became catastrophic. There was no fast way to fix them, Mr. Breerwood of the Army Corps said, because delivery of heavy-duty equipment was hindered by the destruction.

The National Guard was having similar troubles. While troops were stationed in the region, they could not move quickly into the New Orleans area. And in Mississippi, the zone of destruction was so widespread, it was difficult to cover it all quickly, officials said.

"It is not a function of more people, but how many people can you move on the road system that exists now in Louisiana and in Mississippi," said General Blum of the National Guard. "How many people can you put through that funnel that a storm has taken four lane highways and turned them into goat trails?"

On Wednesday, Mr. Bush, having cut short his vacation, convened a federal task force. With looting spreading throughout New Orleans, Guard officials said they were doubling the call by this weekend, to 21,000 forces, one-third of them military police officers. On Thursday, General Blum said more than 32,000 Guard members would be deployed in the gulf region by Monday.

Currently, the states' governors control their National Guard, with the Pentagon and other federal agencies like FEMA, coordinating operations with the state. The administration has resisted federalizing the relief operation, in large part because officials say it would severely limit the National Guard's ability to conduct law enforcement missions for which they are specifically trained.

"Federalizing the National Guard for purposes of law enforcement would be a last resort, not a first resort," said Paul McHale, assistant secretary of defense for homeland security, told reporters on Thursday.

A 1878 law restricts active-duty military forces from performing domestic law enforcement duties. But in extreme emergencies, like some of the race riots and civil disorders in the 1960's, federal troops have been sent in to restore order.

The administration has also balked at ordering active-duty military forces, such as the 82nd Airborne Division from Fort Bragg, N.C., to intervene in a civilian law enforcement role to stop looting and restore order. Late Tuesday, the Pentagon dispatched five ships to the gulf, but four of the ships are coming from Norfolk, Va., four days' sailing time away.

Some military analysts criticized the Pentagon's response.

"Is the problem that they are only just now beginning to understand how serious the damage was?" said John Pike, director of GlobalSecurity .org, a national security policy group in Washington. "Did they not have a contingency for a disaster of this magnitude?"

The chaotic response came despite repeated efforts over many years to plan a coordinated defense if the worst should occur. As recently as July 2004, federal, state and local officials cooperated on the Hurricane Pam drill, which predicted 10 to 15 feet of water in parts of the city and the evacuation of one million people.

Martha Madden, who was the Louisiana secretary of environmental quality from 1987-1988, said that the potential for disaster was always obvious and that "FEMA has known this for 20 years."

"Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent, in studies, training and contingency plans, scenarios, all of that," said Ms. Madden, now a consultant in strategic planning.

The Army Corps, she said, should have had arrangements in place with contractors who had emergency supplies at hand, like sandbags or concrete barriers, the way that environmental planners have contracts to handle oil spills.

While his agency is facing harsh criticism, Patrick Rhode, FEMA's deputy director, defended its performance as "probably one of the most efficient and effective responses in the country's history."

He recalled that after Mr. Brown, his boss, returned from his tsunami tour, he asked if the United States was better prepared for a disaster than the ravaged countries he had visited. "We felt relatively comfortable that this country could mobilize the response necessary," he said.

Reporting for this article was contributed by Eric Schmitt, Thom Shanker and Matthew L. Wald from Washington; Christopher Drew and Susan Saulny from Baton Rouge; Joseph B. Treaster from New Orleans; and David Rohde from New York..

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Mr. Svoboda

I respectfully suggest, this natural disaster WILL become a political football, as did the 9/11 tragedy and the aftermath -- to many horrific pictures are out the now [which I'm sure the current administration would like suppressed, try shutting up the Jesse jacksons of the world -- better yet, How about the coalition of black congress folks, of which there are PLENTY - as demonstrated by their Washington D.C. press conference yesterday]. Whether the current administration dragged it's feet or NOT, is immaterial, they're [the GOP-Repugnicans]in the majority, hence, in charge. Makes not one wit of difference here in the states who wrote WHAT, WHEN or WHERE above - what is, IS.

Only the naieve believe it won't be politicized, GB got a lot of breaks after 9/11 from the "so-called liberal media", don't expect that ,this time. Keep your chin up though, it'll be over when the next crises pops up or the current adminstration leaves office, or we can find someone, anyone to impeach...

Wanna emmigrate?

David Healy

It is astonishing how many inhabit this forum who write

vile personal attacks...saying things that they would not

dare to say in a personal face-to-face setting. The

anonymity of identity on the internet transforms some

otherwise nice people into assholes. I do not have

personal real conversations with assholes...so why should

I endure them here? Please cease demanding that I

respond to ill-informed and abusive questions and comments.

Jack

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Jack,

Question, are either of these two guys 'offical NASA spokespersons', capable of speaking to and of NASA photo library? I'm not sure about Evan, hell he may be a pilot or a baggage handler, who knows -- this Heagney from San Mateo (a nice place, I lived there for 10 years, grew up 10 miles north of there) he collects and sells hubcaps, I expect he's a amateur photg at best - I'd questioning anyone sanity that cruises Hwy 101 looking for hubcaps -- so my question is: why bother with them?

They certainly don't know the difference between EVIDENCE and a STUDY... For what its worth I wouldn't bother answering ANYTHING from those camps...

TGratz wrote:

I have THE answer, John.

[...]

_____________________

yes you do, it's called NOISE

I hope I am not thread jacking here...

For anyone interested, there are two documentaries by Mark Akbar and Co (SP) that are very interesting in terms of how the information itself is presented, and by this I mean they don't look and sound like wildlife documentaries.

One is The Corporation and the other is Manufacturing Consent.

These have both gone on to festivals and have been nominated for Acedemy Awards (for what that is worth) but have gone on to large audiences.

One thing I would hate to see is a super dry "I'm Bill Curtis" approach and I  loathe the idea of seeing Michael Moore talking to Panhandling experts in Dealey Plaza while buying a hotdog...

PBS had a pretty even handed Doc on the Banana War a few months back and it was pretty informative but again, kinda dry.

An aside, John Simkin would be very useful provided he has time, as he seems to have a very good handle on historical timelines and has a pretty cohesive approach towards things in my opinion, which most filmmakers/producers don't have. There seems to me to be an awfully large amount of qualified people here to undertake such a project.

It's really just a question of peoples time I suppose.

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throwing aside Michael Moore may be foolish -- what did his last documentary garner at the box office, how many appearences did he make on National TV, how many copies of the DVD are out there - how does that number compare to the MPI DVD? Moore's distribution contacts is worth how much? His PR organization? His web presence? Academy Award? Who cares what the peers think!

You'll need a thorughly vetted script if you expect some on this forum to take the project seriously. Having access to a NLE and a few software packages, although good doesn't make a project of this type a slam dunk..

Look towards 30K-80K as a licensing fee re the Z-film, depending on broadcast disribution and how much used in the project. Yes, approval cycles can be a pain. I suspect regarding the material under consideration, you'll get little response from the Z-film copyright holders and/or their assigns.

Selling DVD's with same incorporated into the piece? Well -- be prepared, it'll go higher, maybe much higher. You can contact Gary Mack at the 6th Floor Museum -- evidently his organization handles request of this type... he does lurk hereabouts though - he may contact you...

we're use to hijacked threads here, btw.

Do much 'compositing'?

David Healy

Hello Pat,

There's a few of us here on this forum that know both David's, a few - quite well! DLifton is known to re-visit those UCLA book stacks, as well as holedup up in a nearby Starbucks! It might interest a few to know that David Mantik along with his M.D. degree, also holds a Ph.D. in Physics. There aren't many smarter, more knowledgable and just plain nice guys than those two David's. He's [Mantik] spent many hours at NARA reviewing actual evidence regarding the JFK case. I'm proud to have them as friends...

David Healy

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I found out recently that the wife of one of my long-time friends (who is not part of the JFK community, by the way) is Lifton's niece, so the world is not as big as one might think.

While reading Lifton and Mantik has taught me a lot, I'm perplexed by Mantik's assertions that the JFK evidence, if not altered, indicates an open-and-shut case for one shooter firing from behind. This indicates he believes that a SBT involving the back wound in the autopsy photos imakes sense, which he KNOWS is not true due to his CT studies. These studies showed that a bullet entering the back anywhere near the location shown in the photos and exiting from the front of the throat would pass through the spine. I can only speculate from this that Mantik was seduced by the evidence for alteration and consequently over-stated its importance to the case.

I believe one can prove conspiracy without insisting that the Z-film, x-rays or photos have been altered. If either of the Davids want to debate me on this issue, and thereby defend the SBT and the contention that the red spot in the cowlick represents a bullet hole, I'm game.

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I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that debate. Why perplexed by the assertion "if evidence is NOT altered..." The Warrenistas and Commission - Report has spouted same forever...

Personally, I think its 2 shooters from the rear, 1 the front and some assassination related evidence appears altered -- the question is WHY alter the evidence?

I'll be speaking with both David's in the near future - I pass on your remarks...

David Healy

Jack;

Thanks for the information.

Certainly a well researched item, and, not unlike most of the evidence, a book which deals with only "THE RIFLE" could be, and should be undertaken by someone.

I am familiar with a portion of this writing as someone long ago sent me that portion which deals with the importation of the weapons and the formation of Adams Consolidated/Folsom Arms/Crescent, etc;

This was done to ask what knowledge I may have of this operation.

The work by Armstrong in relationship to two items related to the Carcano is of prime importance.

The shipping weights, and the rifle serial numbers.

Regarding rifle serial numbers, the following additional information may add to what Armstrong has indicated.

1.  Carcano Carbines. (pre-1938)

a.  Manufactured at multiple factories.

c.  Manufactured in two seperate versions. (Cavalry Carbine & TS Carbine)

d.  Barrell length for each model is the same and barells can be interchanged.

2.  Each plant that manufactured the Carcano (in any version of the weapon) issued it's own serial numbers. 

The only distinction between other plants being that of the stamp mark of the actual plant of assembly.

With the TS Carbine, we could conceiveably have:

a.  Serial# C2766 made at the Brescia plant (M91)

b.  Serial# C2766 made at the Terni plant (M91/28)

c.  Serial# C2766 made at the Beretta plant (M91/28)

d.  Serial# C2766 made at the Brescia plant (M91/28)

e.  Serial# C2766 made at the Gardone plant (M9128)

f.  ??Two additional plants are listed, however there is no actual record of these plants having produced any weapons, and this appears to possibly be the plants at which the modifications to the Model 91/28 were made which added the grenade launcher to this model of the weapon.

3.  In addition to actual production of the TS Carbine, various plants also manufactured the Cavalry Carbine.

This weapon is entirely different in design from the TS Carbine and is a completely separate model identification.  However, this weapon utilized the exact same 17.7 inch length barrel as that utilized in the TS Carbine, and the barrels are completely interchangeable.

Therefore, we could have the following additional carbine barrels with the C2766 serial number on them:

a.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Brescia

b.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Gardone

c.  Serial# C2766---M91 Cavalry Carbine produced at Terni

With this, the potential for 17.7 inch length carbine rifle barrels which bear the same C2766 serial number has now increased to 8 barrels.  And, in fact, some of these barrels could in fact bear the identical plant of manufacture stamp as some of them were made for the TS Carbine, and others were made for the Cavalry Carbine, which actually constituted different models of the rifle.

4.  To add additional confusion to the serial number issue, we can interject what is referred to as the Model 91/24TS Carbine.

As indicated previously, this weapon was not originally a carbine.  It was in fact originally a 50.8 inch long rifle with a 30.7 inch length barrell.

The Italian Government, in needing more TS Carbines, embarked on "cutting down" many of the old long rifles and conversion of these weapons to the exact same length as the TS Carbine.

Since the "RIFLE" was in fact a totally separate model identification, then it too could, and would have issues from the various plants which could easily bear the serial# C2766.

Therefore, one could add in the potential of:

a.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Beretta

b.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Brescia

c.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Mida-Brescia

d.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Roma

e.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Terni

f.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Torino

g.  Serial# C2766 rifle barrel modified to 91/24 Carbine-----Torre Annunzio

Obviously, one can not assume that each and every M91 rifle which may have carried the serial number C2766 was ultimately cut down and made into 36-inch length Carbines, Model 91/24.

This however demonstrates the potential of how many pre-1938 "Carbine" rifle barrels could exist which bear the serial number C2766.

And, this does not take into consideration the numbers of Rifles & Carbines produced which would contain a variation of the C2766 serial number, which could easily be made to match this exact number.  IE:

a.  C 276------with an additional "6" added

b.    276------with a "C" and an additional "6" added

c.    2766-----With a "C" added.

Nor, does this take into consideration those weapons produced, beginning in 1938, which will be discussed next.

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what-a-morass, thanks Jack White - John Armstrong - Tom Purvis for your efforts...