David G. Healy
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Posts posted by David G. Healy
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From Ocean City to Woodstock
http://oceancitydays.blogspot.com/
Okay, it's been 40 years, I know, I know, and it's always going to be there - a generational milestone against which other major events are measured.
And I did this twenty years ago, when I thought it was a passing fad, and I can't find that clip so I'm going entirely on memory here, but I will do the best I can, spurred on by nudging from my pal Jerry Montgomery, who was inspired to blog his own recollections.
Blog wasn't a word in the dictionary in August, 1969, and the multi-media networks are a major development since the last Woodstock anniversary worth noting.
Just perusing the internet world I quickly realize that others are doing the same thing, and my recollections don't seem to jive totally with what is out there.
For instance, there's the Santana bit about their first album not being out in August, 1969, and that it wasn't released until after they played Woodstock.
Well, that's not the way I remember it.
I remember very distinctly being in a Wildwood motel room with Jerry and Marc Jordan, another good buddy from high school days, and one of them turning me on to Santana, playing what I thought was Black Magic Women, but since that song is not on their first album, it must have been Persuasion, or one of the smooth, thundering Santana songs, putting it on the record player while handing me the album cover, saying, "And Santana is going to be there!. We really got to go to Woodstock."
I knew about Woodstock, having previously had a epiphany like experience the first time I heard the Band's "The Weight" on the radio sometime in 1968. I was living at 362 (Garden Avenue, Camden, N.J.) at the time, and it was a Sunday night, but I don't remember if the dj was Meatball Fulton on the Penn station or Dave Herman on WMMR, where Herman introduced AOR - Album Oriented Rock and changed the world.
Fulton was further out there in Left Field, playing Frank Zappa and Captain Beefheart (Trout Mask Replica), so it was probably Dave Herman who played "The Weight," - "take a load off Mammy," you know the song that changed the world, at least for me.
At least it got my attention, and even though this was years before I even learned the Band had been down the Shore at Tony Marts in Somers Point while I was hanging out in Ocean City, but I did know that they had backed Bob Dylan at the historic Forest Hills gig where the folkies booed him for "going electric," and that since Dylan had been in a bad motor cycle accident, their tour together had been postponed and they were all laid back recouperating at a place called Woodstock.
It was an old time, turn of the last century Artist Colony in Mid-state New York, where Dylan's manager Albert Grossman had a home and recording studio. Dylan was holed up at Grossman's house in a cast, while the rest of the Band lived in a pink split level house they called Big Pink in nearby West Saugerties.
When Jerry and Marc were telling me that Santana was going to be at a rock concert at Woodstock, all I could think of was Dylan and the Band.
And the Band were in the lineup for the festival at Woodstock, Marc said convincingly.
We had all went to high school together - Camden Catholic High School, class of '69, and has spent the previous few years at my family rooming house in Ocean City, but this summer Jerry and Marc were working at a grill on the Wildwood boardwalk and living at the motel a few blocks away.
The TV was on with the sound down, Santana was on the record player, and Jerry and Marc were trying to convince me to go to Woodstock with them for this rock festival.
But I had a real, steady job, flipping pizza on the Ocean City boardwalk, and I couldn't just take off a weekend in the middle of the summer.
Then I got a letter in the mail from the University of Dayton (Ohio), where I was due to enroll as a freshman in September, but this letter said that I was to show up for "Freshman Orientation" the same weekend as Woodstock.
So I showed the letter to my boss, Mr. Anthony Mack, who was then in his seventies, and didn't read anyway, so the letter could have said anything, but I was honest with him about the letter, and he said that I had to go, that my education was more important, but make sure I was back for the following weekend - Labor Day, the busiest weekend of the season. I'd be back on Monday I promised.
Then one day, while I was working, Jerry and Marc started talking with a guy with a napsack who was hanging around Shriver's Pier at 9th street and the boardwalk(no longer there), where all the hippies hung out and played guitar and sang. He was in town to visit his sister, who was working at Cooper Kettle Fudge on the boardwalk, and didn't have a place to stay.
No problem. "Our friend has a house down the street and lets everybody stay there."
When I got done making pizza the four of us went to the 9th Street diner (no longer there) for something to eat, and I learned that Jerry and Marc's new friend Mark Connally from Pittsburgh, was also going to be a freshman at the University of Dayton. He too was going to skip "freshman orientation" and go to Woodstock, so we all agreed we were going, and we made plans on meeting up with Mark Connally there. (Ha ha, but little did we know).
Thursday night, after I closed the pizza place, I hurried home, a few blocks away, and Marc and Jerry and Bob Katchnick, another friend from high school, were there, all packed and ready to go. My 1959' CJ5 jeep with no doors was packed with blankets and camping junk, was parked in the alley, but it was damp and wouldn't start.
My mother came out to say goodbye to us, and when we told her the jeep wouldn't start, she said to "take your father's car."
That's what she said, and we didn't argue.
And we were off, in Dad's relatively new 1967 Ford, a square box car, but since my father was a policeman, it had a sign "County Detective" on the visor, which came in handy when we had to pass people and get past roadblocks.
Jerry says he was driving, and I know I crawled in the back seat and went to sleep, but it wasn't long before we were parked on the side of the road and there was a flashlight in my face from the window. It was a cop, and he was asking me, "Does your father know you have this car?"
Before I could answer, he asked another question.
"Are you going to Woodstock?"
"Yes," was the answer, and it must have been the right one, because he let us go with a simple, "Be safe."
By morning, a few hours later, we were getting really close, because we weren't moving very fast as traffic was getting tight.
At some point, whoever was driving picked up a hitch hiker, a fortunious move, as Jerry recalls in his blog - because the guy had already been to the site and knew a back way in, down a dirt road and through some fields that emptied out right back stage, maybe two hundred yards to the right rear of the stage.
It wasn't long however, before we were blocked in and parked there for a few days.
It was damp when we left, and wet when we got there, but it only rained periodically.
Jerry remembers some acid being consumed by some of us, but not me. I didn't drink alochol or even smoke pot, and may have been the only straight and sober person there.
We did have a leather satchel with some wine that we shared, but for the most part, I didn't partake and should have a clear recollection of everything that happened.
I don't.
I do remember scouting out the scene, walking around amazed at everything, and eventually working my way down in front of the stage where I sat with some strangers, who became my friends, and listened to Richie Havens, who I remember the clearest.
Joan Biez also stands out as someone I actually paid attention to, but some of the bands just didn't interest me - like the Who. I just didn't get it.
After seeing Richie Havens and Joan Biez from pretty close up, I went for a walk around the outskirts of the scene, a big mistake because I never got down close to the front of the stage again.
I remember the food court shelling out all kinds of food, and the port a potties, and swimming naked in the lake with a bunch of strangers, actually just to get clean after a rain storm.
There was the medical facilities, that looked like a MASH tent, and there were helicopters constantly flying in and out and buzzing around above us.
Every once in awhile I went back to the car to see if any of the other guys had checked in, but usually nobody was there, until it got dark and we slept in the car, which at least was dry.
I knew my companions for a few years, having met and bonded with them at Camden Catholic. Jerry lived near me in East Camden, is quiet but has a good sense of humor.
Marc was more serious, a transfer to CCHS from arch rival Bishop Eustice, which as an all guy prep school and basketball powerhouse at the time. Marc had played basketball, but was also pretty smart, and for some reason, transferred to Catholic and didn't play basket ball. He drifted towards me and my locker because I was a radical, politically, a "clean for Gene" anti-Vietnam war activist.
Bob Katchnick, which is spelled phonetically, was a real handsome - Troy Donahue like artist, who has a younger hippie sister, and was good friends with Bob Lodge, another artist - the Two Bobs.
Jerry and Marc were hanging out together and close to the wine gourd, while Bob took off on his own, and was probably doing extra-psychadelic enhancers, and of us all, was probably enjoying himself the most.
I know Mark wanted to leave almost as soon as we got there, or at least go get a motel room somewhere, but we were stuck now, in the middle of a half-million people.
That's more than Napoleon's army, and more people than some countries (Monaco, Lichenstein, and the UAE country that's been named to host the next America's Cup).
Finally The Band came on, the one group that I really came to Woodstock to see, and I couldn't get down close to the stage, but I got as I could to the stage left, and when I still couldn't see, I climbed a tree and laid back on one of the limbs with people walking along a trail below me.
While we never did hook up with Mark Connally from Pittsburgh, I thought it was quite unbelievable when, after awhile, I heard Jerry's distinct voice calling out my name. "Yo! Bill."
And I think I frightened him a little when I answered him from above, hanging on to a tree limb.
I saw the Band and heard them, and now I thought the whole trip was worth it.
But Dylan was nowhere to be seen, on or off stage, and I don't think I was the only one disapointed at that.
By Sunday afternoon, there were still a dozen acts to play, but we were pretty much set on getting out of there as soon as the car could be moved and there was traffic moving.
Mark was anxious to go and it didn't take too much convincing me to get going while the gettin' was good.
Bob Katchnick didn't want to leave though, because some of the best acts were still to come, so he said not to worry and that he'd hitch hike home and see us in a few days. And we didn't argue with him.
We left Sunday afternoon so we missed the Sunday night acts and, of course, Hendrix on Monday morning, but I'm sure Bob Katchnick was there, and I later learned from Mark Connally that he hung around and helped clean up the mess.
I don't remember the ride home at all, but when we got home, I do remember that I never saw my father so happy to see me, and his car, though we were both covered in mud. We didn't realize that the festival had made the national news, or the news at all, until we got home and it was only then that we realized what a big thing it was.
I'm going to have to blend Jerry's Blog narrative with this, to see how it jives, but he's told me that he remembers us getting back to Ocean City late Sunday night, and while Mark jumped in the shower, we walked down the alley and around the corner to the Purple Dragon Coffee House on 8th street (now the Horse Horse Ice Cream Parlor), just to show off our Woodstock mud.
If so, that was the only time I bragged about being at Woodstock, because the next day I had to be back at work at Mack & Manco's Pizza on the boardwalk, where I had to tell everybody that I spent the weekend in Dayton, Ohio at "freshmen orientation."
I would have gotten fired for sure if I told them I had actually been to Woodstock.
When I finally got to Dayton, I hooked up with Mark Connally and we became good friends, and eventually moved into an off campus apartment together.
A year or so after Woodstock, Richie Havens came to Dayton and played a concert at the Dayton Arena. I had seats right down front, and after the show I handed Richie a piece of paper that just said something like "Friend Bill Kelly from Woodstock" and the address of a party.
An hour or so after the concert, the party was going pretty strong, with people in every room, but I was hanging out in the kitchen, when a limo pulled up out front, and Richie Havens got out and asked for me, and joined us in the kitchen. The other party guests didn't believe me when I said Richie Havens was coming by, and I was pretty shocked to see him myself, but he came in and pretended he remembered me from Woodstock, and then proceeded to show us how to roll a joint with one hand, just like the cowboys do when they're riding a horse on the range.
By then I was smoking, and drinking draft beer, and we had a grand old time. Richie is still on the road, playing all the time, and when he's not on the road, he lives somewhere in North Jersey. Havens was interviewed on CNN a few nights ago (it should be on YouTube by now), along with Dick Cavatt, who had interviewed Joni Mitchell and Hendrix, both complete interviews also available. The interviewer kept asking Richie Havens these long questions, and Richie, being stoned, answered real slow in few sylables.
As for my Woodstock friends, Jerry is now a computer guy in the mid-west, while Mark is a lawyer in DC, whose married to a lawyer. After Woodstock, Mark got a scholarship to NYU in NYC, and lived in the Village where I visited him a few times. While there he too had an epiphany, joined ROTC and became a USMC officer after graduation. We stayed friends.
We left Bob Katchnick at Woodstock, and I was going to say that we haven't heard from him since, but now I do remember hitich hiking with a girlfriend from Dayton to Detroit and visiting Bob at Wayne State University. I'd like to find out what became of Bob, and get his Woodstock reminisces but I can't seem to get a correct spelling for his last name.
I really became a Band fan, and caught them performing in Cleveland at the Armory there in 1970, and then in Philly at the Spectrum many times, including tours backing Dylan.
One of the first articles I ever had published (Atlantic City Sun) was the story of how the Band, as Levon & the Hawks, played the summer of '65 at Tony Marts nightclub in Somers Point, where they were playing when Dylan convinced them to leave there to back him at Forest Hills.
Then in 1986 we brought The Band back to Somers Point for the first Tony Marts reunion at the original site of Tony Marts, Egos nightclub.
Tony's son Carmen Marotta, opened a nightclub in New Orleans in partnership with Levon Helm - the Classic American Cafe, and Levon and his band from Woodstock, including his daughter, played the Bubba Mac Shack in Somers Point (no longer there) a few times. The last time he was sick, and couldn't sing, but since then, he's beaten the cancer and can now play drums and sing like the good old days. His last album "Dirt Farmer" won a Grammy and he's going to be playing the Borgatta Casino in Atlantic City (August 22) with the Black Crows, who recently recorded a live album at Levon's barn at Woodstock.
In all the Woodstock reminisces I've read over the past week, I haven't seen anything about Dylan, The Band, Albert Grossman, Big Pink or any of the reasons I went to Woodstock in the first place.
So I guess that gives me the opportunity to set the record straight, if I could only remember.
Bill Kelly
August 16, 2009
Browns Mills, NJ
Ahh, vintage Bill Kelly --- I can almost feel the Jersey shore, er Woodstock mud beneath my feet...
Recently heard a snippet on NPR (interview with one of the organizers of Woodstock) "...the bands all sounded horrible for the first 20 minutes of their set, that's how long it took for *black beauties* to kick in...". He went on, "...the only group/artist at Woodstock that had its entire act together was Santana!"...
During College of San Mateo days (1966-68) a little known singer played at the college cafeteria, Country Joe MacDonald (we had other groups show up there on ocassion, Buffalo Springfield, The Byrds, etc). When Joe showed up on stage at Woodstock we were dumbstruck, for a moment
...... (the San Francisco bay-area was a great place for music in the late '60's, over 500 bands to choose from, Some could even play, imagine that!) -
I don't know who said McAdams was a "crackpot" but it was not me. It is not a word I ever use. Nor do I understand how the person who made this statement is as a result of it, a Nazi? I just do not understand the logic of this argument.
McAdams was not suggesting that calling someone a crackpot makes the name-caller a Nazi.
It would also be nice to prosecute crackpots likeJohn McAdams for deliberately covering up the truth about the
assassination of John F. Kennedy, unless of course, they manage to cop
an insanity plea.
McAdams is just saying that only Nazi's (totalitarians) would want to PROSECUTE "crackpots" (as in CRIMINAL PROSECUTION) on account of their beliefs, and I am sure most members would agree with that particular sentiment.
Of course McAdams was falsely attributing those sentiments to John Simkin, but he has apologized, in a fairly half-hearted sort of way.
What we got here is a failure to c'mmunicate.
all you need to know about Paul (McAdams alias) Nolan, er John McAdams...
http://www.ctka.net/2009/target_car_jd3.html (half way down the article)
p.s. there is a REAL Paul Nolan - JFK researcher as the above article states...
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After 10's of thousands of internet, USENET, forum posts -- he disappears. Amazing....
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The LaRouche PAC big intervention and literature saturation
of Rep. Rick Larson's (D-Wash.) huge (unplanned) town meeting
with many hundreds standing outside, is now out on the Internet
in a two-minute video, including on larouchenet. A supporter who
was there has sent a report of LPAC organizers "supporting the
Truth" about Obama, one or two threatening to attack them, and
others in the crowd immediately coming to their defense. The
Romulus, Michigan, intervention is everywhere on the Internet,
and the Vicki Tsongas meeting near Boston is now fully visible on
larouchenet and being picked up elsewhere. We have print coverage
of our Obama/Hitler organizing reported in Long Island and New
Jersey. And in many locals our field squads are "exploding" their
impact and income, as Harley reported of Texas over the weekend.
A town meeting held by Rep. Mike Burgess (R-Tx) near Dallas,
showed again that GOP Congressmen are also getting blasted by the
revolutionary heat.
Meanwhile, a growing number of "leading" Congressional
cowards has decided to have "no direct contact with [his or her]
constituents during this recess" (Diane DeGette of Colorado, in
that case).
Lyndon LaRouche said Sunday, "I repeat what I said on
Saturday about this; and I'll add now: The President, like the
King of France, and the legislative branch of the government,
have gone into hiding, and we're waiting for the rioters to reach
the Bastille.
"This is a breakdown of government. The government has fled
from the people. It is not fleeing from `mobs.' This is not
caused by the `mobs.' It's caused by the government's refusal to
deal with the problems of the American people.
"And the American people are not going to let Obama do it.
He has misjudged. Hitler was actually smarter--he knew that he
couldn't run through a euthanasia thing like this except in a
war. He said he knew it would require war. He waited until war
started, and he put it through. Obama is more stupid. He thought
he would do it without waiting to be at war. He was stupid, and
he's getting the heat for it.
"This is what we should say, although some of us will be
afraid to say it," Lyn concluded.
LMFAO! LaRouche belongs in a straight-jacket..... nuff said!
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This is also discussed, here:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=14656
Last I checked, a number of posters at alt.ass.JFK, including myself, pointed out to McAdams that the quote he claimed was from you, was not. He then backed down and admitted he owed you an apology, but still claimed your claim he was a disinfo agent revealed your fascistic tendencies, or some such thing.
I don't recall. Did you ever claim he was a disinformation agent?
last I checked majority of posters on AAJ (McAdams USENET board) ARE lone nut-trolls. Those that think they can change nutters, discuss or even persuade them otherwise are dreaming... .john is locked into 1999.... IMHO, he's pretty low on the disinfo scale these day's, many have raced to head that pact.... David Von Pein, aka Dave Reitzes-pieces come to mind, the guy has to have at least 7 websites and blogs supporting the unsupportable -- the WCR-SBT-LHO did it all by his lonesome nonsense (and that doesn't count the Bugliosi AMAZON gigs or YouTUBE) and who knows (or cares) how many internet aliases.
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This website quotes John Simkin in an attack on John McAdams.
McAdams has in turn created a thread on alt.assassination.JFK where former Forum members David Von Pein and Brendan Slattery have dogpiled on Simkin and called him a Nazi, Bolshevik, etc... someone out to enforce his view of the world on others.
The problem is that the key quote McAdams uses "It would also be nice to prosecute crackpots like John McAdams for deliberately covering up the truth about the assassination of John F. Kennedy, unless of course, they manage to cop an insanity plea." is not in quotes on the website and is not attributed to Simkin by the creator of the website.
McAdams is attacking Simkin for NO reason other than his ridiculous notion that John Simkin is some sort of fascist out to arrest anyone who disagrees with him. What malarkey!
McAdams owes John Simkin a beer.
mcadams can't get near beer, he breaks out in aliases.... as does David Von Pein (aka Dave Reitzes-pieces)
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John, take a quick look at the current topics. Around half of them seem to be started by people who believe that the American government blew up the World Trade Center, or that, alternatively, it was hit by an Unidentified Flying Object. Almost every topic relates to some conspiracy theory or another. Some of the posters seem to have only the flimsiest grasp of reality. One of even said he was surprised that there weren't even more topics posted on the "9/11 Conspiracy". As Cigdem said, only a very small minority of "educators" have any interest in these bizarre backwaters which really seem to have little or no relation to any "educational" area unless it's abnormal psychology. There used to be a lot of teachers who visited the forum regularly and there were lively discussions, especially on history. I used to recommend the forum to my colleagues and to my students, but I haven't for some time since there would be nothing here to interest them...
ahh Mike, beauty as well as reality is in the eye of the beholder, eh? -- "bizzare backwaters?" Assassination is not a tool of politics? -- You aren't going to tell us the US sllide into oblivion and disrepute didn't start with the political assassinations of the 60's are ya? If that's the case when will you be rewriting history books there, Mike?
Evidently you haven't followed the numbers on this board very close Mike, the JFK assassination/conspiracy: numero uno! It's not JFK assassination contributors that brought down the "lively" educator discussions, that's YOUR fault -- whining about that is a waste of everyones time and I doubt any of this boards conspiracy participants even hear you....
So as far as "grasp of reality" is concerned: would your time be better spent developing secondary education curriculum(s) which actually have merit, you guys are cranking out morons these days.... Is it any wonder why critical (as well as creative) thinking seem to be non-existent these days? Perhaps it's simply "secondary educator" FEAR?
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Bumped for new members and old ones who never got around to voting. Careful do NOT click on the "See Poll Results (null vote)" button if you want to vote.
you've gotta be kidding, right? The Len and Evan Show? How quaint...
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See, you ARE a riot! And predictable too. Sooo ... asking someone to discuss the witnesses and what someone disagrees with as presented in the article is off topic. Hmmmm. Well, from what we have seen so far, it would be for you and Pam, perhaps. :-)
ROTFL.
Barb, dont you know Dave's idea of staying on topic means insults and smears....Dave just doesn't 'do' evidence and research. LOL
I came to know that rather quickly. There's at least one on every channel. <g>
Bests,
Barb :-)
think .john has noticed Denise yet, Barb? After all, ALL lone nutter-xxxxx deeds do get paid.... Carry on!
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See, you ARE a riot! And predictable too. Sooo ... asking someone to discuss the witnesses and what someone disagrees with as presented in the article is off topic. Hmmmm. Well, from what we have seen so far, it would be for you and Pam, perhaps. :-)
ROTFL.
Barb, dont you know Dave's idea of staying on topic means insults and smears....Dave just doesn't 'do' evidence and research. LOL
just the facts young man.... no whining when the big boys are around..... this isn't .johnnies -- and where you hidin' Wild Bill Millah?
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I am also uncomfortable with the attempts to dismiss the windshield bullet hole witnesses. This simply blocks research rather than allowing it to move forward to determine what relevance their statements have to the events.
Using witness-bashing to stop research in areas that lead to conspiracy is one of the heavy-handed tactics of the WCR defenders. Rather than simply weighing and evaluating what the witness says and then encouraging everyone to think for themselves, the apologists 'discredit' and then judge. The end result is inevitably that 'all roads lead only to the WCR.'
You keep saying this, Pamela, both here and on the mod group .... over and over and over, yet you never attempt to actually discuss any witness who you think has been dismissed or bashed, you never point out which witness statements you think have relevance to the events.
Pointing out that a witness placed the damage in the wrong part of the windshield is not gratuitous bashing and dismissal, for example.
Putting forth what ones have found and inviting discussion ... which IS encouraging others to think for themselves and voice their opinions ... is not any "heavy-handed tactic."
Presenting new information, as in this case, the Taylor affidavit, does move research forward.
Nothing here was about the WC, certainly not about defending it. The WC had no way of knowing that years later someone would fail to either read thoroughly, or comprehend completely, the Taylor Report and would cite it as evidence of a hole through the windshield. Or that for 29 years following THAT, others. including you, would have picked that up and run with it, continuing to promote that mistaken notion sans any additional full reading and understanding of what the document actually says themselves.
You do nothing but criticize others, leaving nothing but a trail of innuendo, not so veiled allegations and labels ... and inflammatory rhetoric about "WC defenders." Regardless of the subject. This is just one more in a long line where you have done the exact same thing.
Your nose is out of joint at me over my undertaking some fact checking on Judyth Baker's story a year and a half ago. Since you are one of her biggest defenders, and one who has actually given her money, you couldn't stand that, especially since, at every turn, claims she makes crash headlong into documented facts. Anything that mentions John Hunt's work has the same effect on you after the trouncing you took in a quite long discussion a few years ago involving the Dallas evidence going to the FBI lab in D.C. This is not the place or time to revisit any of that ... this is about whether or not there was a hole in the windshield, but the back alley agenda and any tactics are yours ... and is obvious to anyone who knows your history in some of those discussions. Most people here don't.
I wish I had a dollar for every post you have done since our windshield article came out that says nothing on topic, but merely fans flames, casts innuendo and steers any hope of actual discussion about what was presented further and further off course. Perhaps that is what you want.
If you think witnesses have been dismissed unfairly, then discuss the witnesses and what you disagree with in what we wrote. If you have additional insight or information ... bring it out.
Pick one. Let's go. :-)
no whining Barb, so stay on topic.... this isn't .johnnies hidey-hole.... thanks!
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You're a riot. Easy to see why you can carry on entire threads by yourself,
That has nothing to do with me. When the evidence is
overwhelming on one side of an argument, discussions tend
to be one-sided.
I base my arguments ONLY on the following:
1) The witness testimonies from Dealey Plaza, Parkland, and
Bethesda, which, on the major points, are amazingly consistent.
2) The Dealey Plaza films and photos, which, on the major points,
are amazingly consistent with the witness testimonies.
3) The properly prepared contemporaneous documents/film -- Burkley's
death certificate, the portion of the autopsy face sheet filled out in
pencil, the FBI autopsy report, the lateral neck x-ray, and the
contemporaneous notes of the Parkland doctors -- are all amazingly
consistent with the photographs and the witness testimony.
4) The location of the defects in the clothing.
That's it.
That's all I ever cite. People get discouraged when they have
to rationalize away so much evidence, so my discussions do
tend to be lop-sided.
The reason I cite the clothing evidence most of the time is because
I can't stand exposing the DP/P/B witnesses to the gratuitous
witness bashing that always attends these discussions.
So, yes, when the authority of evidence speaks so loudly, the
discussion is going to be one-sided.
as I understand you did some months ago on the back wound.Yes, Barb, you should understand there was a thread about the back
wound since you wrote -- correct me if I'm wrong -- three posts on it before
you declared victory and departed the field.
I heard about it in email from a friend who found it all quiteamusing. <g>
That's funny, I swear I saw the name "Barb Junkkarinen" at the bottom
of the page soon after several of my posts on the back wound thread.
In fact, on July 7 one Barb Junkkarinen visited my bio page. :->
Nothing here I care to respond to.There's nothing you can respond to. The preponderance
of evidence of JFK's T3-back/throat-entrance wounds is beyond
reasonable doubt.
Your belief in the high-back/throat-exit SBT-lite is based on something
akin to religious faith, just like fundamentalist Christians and their
10,000 year old dinosaurs.
I expect most can read and understand what we wrote.Your subtext is unmistakable: a shot from the front is an open
question. Don Jeffries scolded you for the exact same thing.
Barb, you're like the little kid caught with her hand in the cookie
jar who claimed to reach for the castor oil. :->
I responded about your debunking SBT death knell nonsense ... now you areon to "definitive" and "terrain"
Those are your words, Barb, not mine. If there is a problem with your
notions, the fault lies with the manufacturer. :->
If you don't want your unsupported assumptions about the "research
terrain" challenged, may I kindly suggest you not advance those
assumptions in an article posted on this forum?
Everything in your article is subject to discussion, Barb. You're in no
position to foreclose critique of your logical fallacies.
Your article begs the question as to the existence of a frontal shot,
and is thus a proper subject for discussion on this thread.
and I am not going to get involved, ever again please gawd, in the time consumingtask of trying to untie the successive knots you make out of anything someone says.
I don't recall your involvement in any such efforts.
And it's clear from your position on Kennedy's non-fatal wounds that
you regard a frontal shot an open question.
This is on-topic, Barb, whether you like it or not.
This thread is on whether or not there was a through and through hole in the windshield.The article is an exercise in gratuitous witness bashing, led by one
Barb Junkkarinen, serial witness basher.
Let's take an inventory of what you regard as
"the research terrain."
1) Every witness who observed a hole in the windshield suffered a
similar erroneous perception.
2) Every witness at Parkland who observed JFK's throat wound
suffered a similar erroneous perception.
3) Every witness at Bethesda who observed JFK's back wound
suffered a similar erroneous perception.
Amazing coincidence of similar erroneous perceptions, I must say!
Do we see a pattern here?
The difference between the windshield issue and JFK's non-fatal
wounds is that the wound locations are corroborated by official,
contemporaneous documents and the observations of trained
observers.
You employ a double stand when it comes to weighing evidence, Barb,
and it's always rigged to conclude that one witness or another is wrong
about something relating to the conspiracy.
The DP/P/B witnesses are patriotic, heroic Americans who have solemnly
spoken to the truth of the Kennedy assassination, only to be sneered at or
ignored by the US government, the mainstream media, and a bunch of
pet-theory addled nabobs in the "JFK Critical Research Community."
Clint Hill went to the morgue on a somber mission -- to bear witness to
the nature and location of JFK's wounds.
He testified thusly:
"I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to
the right-hand side of the spinal column."
This location matches the hole in the shirt perfectly -- 5.75 inches below
the top of the shirt collar.
But according to Barb & Co., Clint Hill wasn't able to tell the difference
between "about 6 inches" and "3 or 4 inches."
This is an ability most of us develop long before kindergarten.
Clint Hill, highly-trained observer, brave servant of his country,
was sent to bear witness to the facts surrounding the murder of a
US President -- but he was so incredibly incompetent that he made
a mistake few pre-schoolers would make?
Barb Junkkarinen, what you call "research terrain" is nothing but an
obscenity.
Rest assured, your serial witness bashing will stand to challenge.
BRAVO Mr. Varnell.... Game-Set-Match
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New research comparison of the John Hunt graphic comparison pictures of the cracks in the windshield....FBI 1963 and 1978 by the HSCA....by Martin Hinrichs.....at Duncan McacRae's Forum....
Do not match, similar to Chris Davison's Gif seen in this thread.......and others input at the Lancer Forum..
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index...opic,813.0.html
B......
UH...Neither Davidson nor Martin has applied perspective correction to bring the two images into agreement. How in the world do you expect to make a comparison?
can't find a physicist to debunk Dr. John Costella's work so you dig up an attorney who was a news photog 40+ years ago? PUL-eeeze.... LMFAO!
Ya can't win the film-photo debate, ya lost the PR war years ago..... even FACE is out the window. Where's Wild Bill Miller when you need him?
Gary what are you, Lampoon-Lamson and Dr. Thompson trying to feed the group here?
Wow David you are a bit behind the storyliine. Do you need a cartooish storyboard to follow along?
A few PhD's in Physics, one silly PhD in bullsnit and their trusty sidkick the "photoexpert who can't understand shadows" are stumped by these uimpeachable proofs that John P. Costella, PhD in physics, does not understand physics!
www.craiglamson.com/costella.htm
www.craiglamson.com.coatella2.htm
John P Costella and company are losing the PR war, the Photo/film war, and for sure Costella has lost face because he has been reduced to hiding under a rock down there in OZ.
You need to get out more davie, you have lost touch with reality.
I'm here to serve you lone nut-trollsters there Craig. My one true function in life, to show how misguided your film-photo perceptions are.... now you keep coming back ya'll hear? And, when you find a Physicist willing to debunk Dr. John Costella work you get right back to us (been 6 years now.... tick-tock, still waiting).... This recent nonsense of throwing up a retired word merchant (lawyer) is rather childish and trite, if you catch my drift.... Lone Nutter-trolls, you're running out of time...
P.S. I'm out for hours, on a daily basis, son.... retirement is wonder-bar.... and what better place than in Las Vegas.... think you'll retire someday or have current conditions forced you there already...?
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New research comparison of the John Hunt graphic comparison pictures of the cracks in the windshield....FBI 1963 and 1978 by the HSCA....by Martin Hinrichs.....at Duncan McacRae's Forum....
Do not match, similar to Chris Davison's Gif seen in this thread.......and others input at the Lancer Forum..
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index...opic,813.0.html
B......
UH...Neither Davidson nor Martin has applied perspective correction to bring the two images into agreement. How in the world do you expect to make a comparison?
can't find a physicist to debunk Dr. John Costella's work so you dig up an attorney who was a news photog 40+ years ago? PUL-eeeze.... LMFAO!
Ya can't win the film-photo debate, ya lost the PR war years ago..... even FACE is out the window. Where's Wild Bill Miller when you need him?
Gary what are you, Lampoon-Lamson and Dr. Thompson trying to feed the group here?
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[...]
Fetzer, Weldon and the spiral nebula are not the central issue. That is a sideshow generated by the same folks who brought you faked moon landings and rays from space on 9/11.
Jerry
And your sideshow got its kindling from where, Counselor? This is a PR war my dear Watson... And the Lone Nut-Trolls (with and without college degrees) are losing!
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Second, John Geharty has not been seen on this Forum since 11/23/08. He is perhaps the most sympathetic to those who have been removed and who find fault with some aspects of the Forum's governance IMO.
Research is your friend Lemkin, once again you are wrong as rain:
JUNE 25, 2009
Indeed.... As the Gang of Eight found out when it came to TGZFH! Say, the YAHOO JFK Group now has Dr. Thompson talking to himself, that makes a total of two, what happened to you guys.... anyone left over thar?
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...
IMO, this case will not be solved in our lifetime, perhaps never, but there will be people coming behind us who will be reading and researching, and looking for valid truths, and I firmly believe that the result will not rest on who was in the doorway. Anyway, I certainly hope not.
The question I think you should be asking, is why THEY(the authors) still believe in a conspiracy.
Kathy
this case was resolved years ago..... and upwards of 90% of today's thinking Americans think JFK was assassinated by CONSPIRACY. Which nullifies the SBT/LHO did-it-all-by-his lonesome nonsense. So what's to resolve? When and if Wild Bill Miller takes over Gary Mack's slot?
As far as "position paper authors" (LMFAO) are concerned: who the hell cares about their outdated, outmoded postion? All that's happening in this thread is a PR campaign for the 6th Floor Mausoleum, it's summer time after-all... What the does anyone do in Dallas during the summer?
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Thanks Raymond.
Since Frazier described a lead smear being removed from the interior surface of the windshield, it is clear that the hit on the windshield came from the rear was either from a totally lead bullet or a fragment from a military jacketed round. Since a lead bullet hitting the interior surface of the windshield would have penetrated it, we can be pretty sure we are dealing with a fragment hit. As we all remember, two large fragments from an M-C 6.5 mm bullet (firearms IDed as having been fired in Oswald's rifle) were found in the front seat of the limousine. In all probability, then, the windshield hit probably was incurred by one of those fragments.
Of special interest to me was the report from Frazier's forensic team that brain and blood debris extended as far forward as the hood instrument on the limousine. I didn't know that and it gives powerful evidence of the results of a shot hitting Kennedy in the head from the rear. However, that does not mean that that shot occurred between Z 312 and Z 313.
The importance of our piece is to show that there is no credible evidence of a bullet or fragment producing a through-and-through hole in the windshield. Even David Lifton says the Fetzer/Weldon claim concerning the "spiral nebula" is eyewash. As we pointed out, Lifton properly took seriously the reports of Dudman and Taylor. We have shown that both these individuals are clear they observed no through-and-through hole in the windshield.
John Hunt was kind enough to give us copies of Frazier's notes. I had not seen them before and found them quite probative.
Josiah Thompson
Josiah Thompson
ETERNAL RETURN: A HOLE THROUGH THE WINDSHIELD?Barb Junkkarinen, Jerry Logan, Josiah Thompson
Personally, we'd all be quite happy if a shot through the windshield (from either direction) could be proved. It would be a definitive death knell for the SBT. Clearly; the research terrain would be forever changed.
My compliments to everyone involved in this study. If we now take it as a fact that the windshield was damaged FROM THE INSIDE, do the authors of this study believe that the damage was definitely caused by a bullet or bullet fragment?
If so, does the damage tell us anything about what direction such a bullet or fragment came from? I ask that because if the damage was caused by a ricochet, I am not sure if the damage itself could tell us anything about the original source/direction of the bullet.
credible evidence as displayed on a internet forum, same credible evidence imagery prepared in Photoshop or some such other image manipulation software (of which there a plenty)? Come ON..... what is known is simply this: no one that has looked at this case for 15 minutes or longer, no one, is taking the WCR serious. (despite quoting David Lifton, LMFAO!)
45+ years and all the lone nuts have to show in that time span is a dog-n-pony show, brought forth by the City Fathers of Dallas, Texas called the 6th Floor Museum.
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ETERNAL RETURN: A HOLE THROUGH THE WINDSHIELD?
Barb Junkkarinen, Jerry Logan, Josiah Thompson
1. Introduction
Certain issues concerning evidence in the JFK assassination research arena bubble to the surface again and again.
...
Barb forget her password, Andy? Glad to see you trying to juice the place up.....
Barb experienced some technical problems posting and asked me for help - perhaps in time you might want to comment on the substance of the article?
no need waiting -- balderdash comes to mind. Perhaps as the latest to carry Barb's water, you can comment on its content?
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ETERNAL RETURN: A HOLE THROUGH THE WINDSHIELD?
Barb Junkkarinen, Jerry Logan, Josiah Thompson
1. Introduction
Certain issues concerning evidence in the JFK assassination research arena bubble to the surface again and again.
...
Barb forget her password, Andy? Glad to see you trying to juice the place up.....
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Right, David. Remember the "conversations" between "Bill Miller" and "Larry Peters"?
Jack
sure do.... Miller resurfaced (yesterday-Thursday) on acj, btw..... no softballs there
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The missing flame
me detects a softball game, here? LMAO!
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If what people say is false, they why can't other refute it? Instead they have to attack the poster, not the post.
Anyway - if you think the rule needs changing Peter, then start a thread and let's get a discussion on the matter going. When people have had their say, John & Andy can consider changing the rules. Until that time, however, the rules applies to everyone.
knock-knock.... Hi Evan.... "When people have had their say...", ah, isn't this about procedure, etc? What is this conversation doing in the middle of 'Me and my shadows' thread? Some thread stealing going on here, Evan?
And here's a bit of news for you, I suspect the number of posts to this board during the past few months is going down (by as much as 30%), certainly the number of active CT posters 'posting' here is going down. Thread views I suspect the same -- down... no new members... That cuts website revenue..... Which means THE rules aren't making for *happy campers* -- which in turn means, old hands are moving on to more, er, confrontational places?
Never fear though... the graveyard of JFK assassination related websites, is vast...
Moderate on.....
...... (the San Francisco bay-area was a great place for music in the late '60's, over 500 bands to choose from, Some could even play, imagine that!)
Woodstock Flashbacks
in Music
Posted
great stuff Bill Kelly... the Jersey Shore pieces, rock-n-roll anecdotes including Woodstock ... you should write a damn book.... seriously!