Jim Hargrove

Tommy...

But also like pulling teeth is saying you defend the CIA, again and again, right?

--Jim

2 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The guy in the inset has his head rotated just a little to his left. And look how much more his right ear sticks out because of that. And conversely his left ear doesn't stick out as much.

In contrast, Bat Man has his head turned in the opposite direction. So IMO it isn't a fair comparison. Comparing Inset Man's right ear with Bat Man's left ear is more fair, but still not fair.

But yes, we can agree to disagree.

Sure, but despite my friend David Josephs opinion, which I value, I think the guy in the passport photo insert above is American-born LEE Harvey Oswald, as is the guy in Ruby's Carousel seat.

Dear James,

Is this the teenager you think was photographically "captured" in Ruby's strip joint?

--  Tommy 

 

Dear Tommy,

Don't you want to discuss ALL the evidence?  

23 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Looks like Bat Man's hairline indentation above his bat-like ear has receded more than Oswald's.

 

Really?  The real LEE Harvey Oswald, Robert's true brother, had an enormously receding hairline.

This is the man born as "Lee Harvey Oswald," photographed by his real brother, Robert Oswald, in Texas in 1958 and printed between pages 96 and 97 in Robert's book LEE, A Portrait of Lee Harvey Oswald ....

It's quite obvious that LEE Oswald wore toupees, at least in his passport photos.

And BTW, doesn't ANYONE want to discuss the evidence that LEE Oswald and Jack Ruby worked together?:

 

• In the summer of 1963 Dorothy Marcum was dating Ruby and her aunt worked for Ruby. Dorothy told the FBI that LEE Oswald worked for Ruby during June and July and the two men definitely knew each other.

• Ruby was interviewing Francis Irene Hise for a job as a waitress when a young man entered the Carousel Club and Ruby said “Hi, Ozzie” to the young man. After she was hired Miss Hise served drinks to “Ozzie," whom she recognized after the assassination as LHO.

• Another employee, Clyde Malcolm Limbough, worked for Ruby three years and saw Oswald in Ruby's office on several occasions.

• Helen Kay Smith (“Pixie Lynn”), who worked at the Carousel, told the Dallas Police that she saw Ruby and Oswald together on several occasions.

• Other employees of Ruby who saw Oswald in the Carousel Club were William Crowe, Wally Weston, Dixie Lynn, and Kathy Kay.

• Robert Roy was Ruby's auto mechanic and said that Oswald used to drop off Ruby's car for repairs. Roy then drove Oswald back to Ruby's “burlesque house.”

• Ruby parked his car at Gibbs Auto Service and occasionally allowed friends and associates to borrow his car. Leon Woods was the manager of Gibbs and kept a “check-in and check-out” book that listed the names of people who took Ruby's car from the garage. Mr. Woods gave the book to the FBI following the assassination of President Kennedy, which the FBI later denied.

• During the last week of July (1963) Western Union employee Marshall Hicks delivered several telegrams addressed to “LEE Harvey Oswald” at the Rotary Apartments, 1501-1503 W. 7th St. in Dallas (while HARVEY and Marina were living in New Orleans). The FBI made no attempt to locate copies of these telegrams.

• DPD Detective H.M. Hart, of the Criminal Intelligence Division, received information from a Dallas Police confidential informant who knew Ruby. The informant said that in September (1963) Ruby rented an apartment at 223 S. Ewing for LEE Oswald.

NOTE: Journalist Dorothy Kilgallen wrote in the New York Journal American (June 6, 1964): “It is known that 10 persons have signed sworn depositions to the Warren Commission that they knew Oswald and Ruby to have been acquainted.” 

--Above written by John Armstrong from the Jack Ruby page on our website....

HarveyandLee.net

I just heard from David Josephs, whose opinions I respect a lot, and he doesn't think the guy pictured (and circled) above at Ruby's is LEE Oswald.  So now I'm a little less sure.  But I can be sure that LEE Oswald and Jack Ruby worked together:

During the summer and fall of 1963, while HARVEY, Marina, and June Oswald were living in New Orleans, Jack Ruby and LEE Oswald were seen together by many people in and around Dallas. 

• In the summer of 1963 Dorothy Marcum was dating Ruby and her aunt worked for Ruby. Dorothy told the FBI that LEE Oswald worked for Ruby during June and July and the two men definitely knew each other.

• Ruby was interviewing Francis Irene Hise for a job as a waitress when a young man entered the Carousel Club and Ruby said “Hi, Ozzie” to the young man. After she was hired Miss Hise served drinks to “Ozzie," whom she recognized after the assassination as LHO.

• Another employee, Clyde Malcolm Limbough, worked for Ruby three years and saw Oswald in Ruby's office on several occasions.

• Helen Kay Smith (“Pixie Lynn”), who worked at the Carousel, told the Dallas Police that she saw Ruby and Oswald together on several occasions.

• Other employees of Ruby who saw Oswald in the Carousel Club were William Crowe, Wally Weston, Dixie Lynn, and Kathy Kay.

• Robert Roy was Ruby's auto mechanic and said that Oswald used to drop off Ruby's car for repairs. Roy then drove Oswald back to Ruby's “burlesque house.”

• Ruby parked his car at Gibbs Auto Service and occasionally allowed friends and associates to borrow his car. Leon Woods was the manager of Gibbs and kept a “check-in and check-out” book that listed the names of people who took Ruby's car from the garage. Mr. Woods gave the book to the FBI following the assassination of President Kennedy, which the FBI later denied.

• During the last week of July (1963) Western Union employee Marshall Hicks delivered several telegrams addressed to “LEE Harvey Oswald” at the Rotary Apartments, 1501-1503 W. 7th St. in Dallas (while HARVEY and Marina were living in New Orleans). The FBI made no attempt to locate copies of these telegrams.

• DPD Detective H.M. Hart, of the Criminal Intelligence Division, received information from a Dallas Police confidential informant who knew Ruby. The informant said that in September (1963) Ruby rented an apartment at 223 S. Ewing for LEE Oswald.

NOTE: Journalist Dorothy Kilgallen wrote in the New York Journal American (June 6, 1964): “It is known that 10 persons have signed sworn depositions to the Warren Commission that they knew Oswald and Ruby to have been acquainted.” 

--Above written by John Armstrong from the Jack Ruby page on our website....

HarveyandLee.net

51 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear James,

You don't seem to understand.

If you're saying that the dude in Ruby's joint is the same as the guy in the passport photo, I'm saying you're wrong.

THE EARS ARE DIFFERENT.

--  Tommy 

Looks like the same guy to me.  And why should we be surprised, with all those witnesses saying he and Ruby were buds?  Even Dorothy Kilgallen knew it!

BTW, the guy in Harvey Oswald's passport photo is really Lee, as is the guy at Ruby's.

45 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear James,

That's not the Oswald in your photo inset at Rubys joint.  Different ears,

Unless of course you're talking about some different Oswald.

LOL

--  Tommy 

That's the passport photo of "Lee Harvey Oswald" from his passport currently at the National Archives and all over the internet.

LOL

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

Did John Armstrong interview the Evans and ask if they'd ever seen the "real" Marguerite wearing a nurse's uniform?

Did John do research on Marguerite's higher education to see if she'd been trained as a nurse? (My two aunts were nurses back in the 1950s/60s, and I recall my mom telling me that they attended a special school away from home, in Salt Lake City. I believe they would be classified as LPNs today.)

Myrtle Evans said she was the same age as the Marguerite she knew (the woman born as Marguerite Claverie).  Real Marguerite was born in 1907.  By the time John started his real research in the early to mid 1990s, Myrtle Evans would have been well into her eighties.  I doubt he interviewed her or her husband, even if either was still alive.

I'll try to remember to ask him about your practical nurse questions.

9 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

So why spend so much time and effort trying to convince others of your lame Harvey and Lee and the Two Marguerites theory?  Does it somehow implicate Ruby and McLendon and Phillips a direct kind of way, or do we kinda hafta "connect the dots"?

--  Tommy

Because you can't understand the Kennedy assassination and the setup of the patsy unless you understand that two young men had been sharing the identity of "Lee Harvey Oswald" as part of a false defection program, and that Jack Ruby was far more involved in the actual assassination of JFK than we previously suspected.

As just one example:

During the summer and fall of 1963, while HARVEY, Marina, and June Oswald were living in New Orleans, Jack Ruby and LEE Oswald were seen together by many people in and around Dallas. 

 

 

• In the summer of 1963 Dorothy Marcum was dating Ruby and her aunt worked for Ruby. Dorothy told the FBI that LEE Oswald worked for Ruby during June and July and the two men definitely knew each other.

• Ruby was interviewing Francis Irene Hise for a job as a waitress when a young man entered the Carousel Club and Ruby said “Hi, Ozzie” to the young man. After she was hired Miss Hise served drinks to “Ozzie," whom she recognized after the assassination as LHO.

• Another employee, Clyde Malcolm Limbough, worked for Ruby three years and saw Oswald in Ruby's office on several occasions.

• Helen Kay Smith (“Pixie Lynn”), who worked at the Carousel, told the Dallas Police that she saw Ruby and Oswald together on several occasions.

• Other employees of Ruby who saw Oswald in the Carousel Club were William Crowe, Wally Weston, Dixie Lynn, and Kathy Kay.

• Robert Roy was Ruby's auto mechanic and said that Oswald used to drop off Ruby's car for repairs. Roy then drove Oswald back to Ruby's “burlesque house.”

• Ruby parked his car at Gibbs Auto Service and occasionally allowed friends and associates to borrow his car. Leon Woods was the manager of Gibbs and kept a “check-in and check-out” book that listed the names of people who took Ruby's car from the garage. Mr. Woods gave the book to the FBI following the assassination of President Kennedy, which the FBI later denied.

• During the last week of July (1963) Western Union employee Marshall Hicks delivered several telegrams addressed to “LEE Harvey Oswald” at the Rotary Apartments, 1501-1503 W. 7th St. in Dallas (while HARVEY and Marina were living in New Orleans). The FBI made no attempt to locate copies of these telegrams.

• DPD Detective H.M. Hart, of the Criminal Intelligence Division, received information from a Dallas Police confidential informant who knew Ruby. The informant said that in September (1963) Ruby rented an apartment at 223 S. Ewing for LEE Oswald.

NOTE: Journalist Dorothy Kilgallen wrote in the New York Journal American (June 6, 1964): “It is known that 10 persons have signed sworn depositions to the Warren Commission that they knew Oswald and Ruby to have been acquainted.” 

--Above written by John Armstrong for our website....

If you want to read more about Ruby's inolvement with the JFK hit, see here, starting about halfway down the long page:

http://harveyandlee.net/Ruby/Ruby.html

If you wanna buy a clue about who killed John, you need look no further than one Jacob Rubenstein.  Ruby was closely associated with KLIF radio founder Gordon McLendon, a former Naval Intelligence officer who was a close friend and confidant of David Atlee Phillips.

Ruby called McLendon’s unlisted phone number the day of the assassination. He was overheard that very afternoon saying he could be reached at KLIF. He continued writing letters to McLendon even from prison.

In 1975 McLendon and David Atlee Phillips formed the Association of Former Intelligence Officers (AFIO). The two men had known one another since childhood. And it was Phillips who was spotted by Antonio Veciana talking to LEE Oswald at the Southland building in Dallas in the summer of 1963.

And so we are starring at a direct chain of command from CIA’s David Atlee Phillips to former intel officer Gordon McLendon to McLendon’s close friend Jack Ruby to the REAL Lee Harvey Oswald, the guy who framed the Russian-speaking schmuck for the murder of JFK!

Of course CIA people were involved.

1. With his trip to Russia, staged FPCC activities, and commie-loving history going all the way back to the Marine Corps, it was easy to paint the Russian-speaking Harvey as a commie with ties to Castro, which is exactly what happened.  And it was safe for him to "defect," because it was LEE who manned the U2 radar bubble. Harvey had no real secrets to reveal.

2. After the assassination, Oswald’s ties to both the FBI and the CIA made G-men, especially J. Edgar Hoover, all too happy to enter full scale cover-up mode.

3. Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald had demonstrated that he would follow even difficult orders, critical in the days and hours before and immediately after the assassination. (He absolutely had to be in the right places at the right times to become a successful patsy.  And a patsy was absolutely critical for the plot to succeed.  Without one, the search for the plotters would have been relentless.)

4.  The “Harvey and Lee” project (probably controlled by David Atlee Phillips) made it simple to send around a fellow who looked like Russian-speaking Oswald in the weeks prior to the hit to set him up as the assassin-to-be.  For example….

The Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on Nov. 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target;

Morgan's Gun Shop in Fort Worth on Nov 2.

The Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership also on Nov. 2 where he test drove a car at wrecklessly high speeds saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car.

The Irving Furniture Mart On Nov. 6 or 7 for a gun part where he was referred to the shop where Dial Ryder worked.

The Southland Hotel parking garage (Allright Parking Systems) on Nov. 15 to apply for a job and oh-so-subtly ask how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas.

Hitchhiking on Nov. 20 on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4-foot long package wrapped in brown paper and introducing himself to Ralph Yates as “Lee Harvey Oswald.” He discussed the President's visit, wondered if you could shoot a president, and asked to be dropped across the street from the Texas School Book Depository (where Russian-speaking “Lee Harvey Oswald” was already at work).

I just watched the 1973 motion picture “Executive Action” with Burt Lancaster and Robert Ryan.  It does a great job showing how an “Oswald” look-alike traveled around Dallas in the weeks before the assassination doing many of the things listed above. The irony is that the "look-alike" was probably actually the guy born as "Lee Harvey Oswald."

 

4 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Please do tell us Jim when Julian or Myrtle Evans ever specifically said they met two different Marguerite Oswalds or two different Lee Harvey Oswalds. And we are not interested in your interpretation of their testimony.

I’d be happy to tell you the story of how Myrtle met Harvey, Tracy.  You’ll LOVE it!

All I ask is that, in your own words, you first explain your theory for how the 53/54 fall semester attendance and course entries got on Oswald’s Beauregard record in New Orleans.  You know…. the courses he took in New Orleans while he was in New York City.  Just a sentence or two of your own…. not that same link to nonsense again.  

Surely it’ll take you just a few seconds to use your own words….

Harvey Oswald’s caretaker/”mom” was portrayed as a woman who moved constantly, had trouble holding down a job,  and sometimes argued over very small sums of money, of which she had little.  She often worked, apparently, as a practical nurse, and was seen by many people and can be seen in photographs wearing a white nurse’s uniform.

Interestingly, the woman born as Margaret Claverie (real Marguerite) never worked as a nurse and was never seen in a nurse’s uniform.  Mr. and Mrs. Evans, her best friends, never described her in a nurse’s uniform or working as a nurse.

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I've tried to think of a way the contradictory fall-of-1953 line could have accidentally been put on the Beauregard record. And I've asked others if they can think of a way. (Or, more generally, an explanation for that line.) So far I'm drawing a blank. (And I doubt that anybody else here is trying.)

It ain't gonna happen from the H&L critics.  They'll just point to another website which, as you point out, has no answer either, and hope it all goes away.

Possible explanations for the school record conflicts are quite simple.  Here are two explanations in my own words:

American-born LEE Oswald, briefly living with the Murrets at 809 French St. probably enrolled at Beauregard at the start of the 2nd semester on 1/13/54. We can’t say for sure how Russian-speaking HARVEY’s info from the previous semester got onto LEE’s cumulative record, but it clearly did and there are several reasonable guesses as to how. One is that an office worker at Beauregard who took LEE’s enrollment information started to file it and then noticed the previous semester’s info for the exact (or nearly exact) same name. Logically assuming it was the same student, the fall semester info was added to LEE’s spring semester enrollment info, all the data eventually being transferred to the cumulative record.
 
Or, equally likely, some FBI flunky created the whole record designed to merge the identities of two different students and didn’t remember or know about the NYC conflict.
 

Tracy is afraid to put a theory into his own words because he knows how unlikely it will sound.  So he just points this way and that way and pretends the answers are there.  It's VERY FUNNY how he has dug into this technique.  Watch him point to another website now, pretending the answer is there ....

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim, how long had it been since the Evans had seen the "real" Marguerite?

Myrtle Evans says she last saw her in April 1955.  Julian remembered it as May of the same year.

However, Myrtle met Harvey Oswald (the Russian-speaking impostor killed by Ruby) a couple of years later.  It's a fascinating story.

17 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Michael,

You are right-it is unbelievable. For me, probably the most powerful proof is not even the scientific evidence I have mentioned but a simple common sense fact. And that is that the “real” Marguerite, who was the historic Oswald’s mother, supposedly disappeared after 1958. She was then replaced by the “impostor” who everyone is familiar with from her WC testimony and many media appearances from 1963 up to the late seventies.

But how many people have you known in your life? Dozens or hundreds certainly. The H&L team would have us believe that of all the people that knew the “real” Marguerite the number that came forward to tell the world that the woman they saw on TV or in the newspaper was not the Marguerite they knew was exactly zero.

Oh really?  

Myrtle Evans and her husband Julian were friends with the real Marguerite Oswald for nearly three decades. Included in Julian Evans' April 7, 1964 WC testimony was this exchange with Jenner (emphasis added):  

Mr. JENNER - Give me your impression of Marguerite Oswald.
Mr. EVANS - Marguerite?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mr. EVANS - I think she's a fine woman, myself, a fine woman; intelligent, very soft spoken - a beautiful woman, with black hair streaked with a little gray, but when you saw her on television since this thing happened, she really looked awful; nothing at all like she used to look. She has really aged. She looked like a charwoman, compared to what she used to look like. She used to be a fashion plate. She dressed beautifully, but when we saw her on television just recently, after all this happened, she looked awful. There's no way to describe it, the change that has come over her. You wouldn't have recognized her if they hadn't told you who she was; she looked that different. Where her hair used to be black, now it's entirely gray, and she really looks Old
Mr. JENNER - Well, she's 57, I believe.
Mr. EVANS - That's right; she's the same age as my wife, but she looks about 70 now. That's about all I can remember about her, and then I saw this thing on television when the President was assassinated, and when it showed her picture, we just couldn't believe it was Marguerite.

His wife Myrtle Evans testified on the same day:

Mrs. EVANS - A very good housekeeper, very tasty; she could take anything and make something out of it, and something beautiful. She had a lot of natural talent that way, and she was not lazy. She would work with things by the hour for her children, and she kept a very neat house, and she was always so lovely herself. That's why, when I saw her on TV, after all of this happened, she looked so old and haggard, and I said, "That couldn't be Margie," but of course it was, but if you had known Margie before all this happened, you would see what I mean. She was beautiful. She had beautiful wavy hair.

Mrs. Evans added this:

Mrs. EVANS - As far as I could see, they were very happy, very closely knit, very much in love with each other, and these boys knew that their mother was putting them through school, and giving them what they needed, as best she could. She was a very good provider for her children, and a very decent woman. I mean, she wasn't a loose woman at all. She was very decent, a very fine woman. 

Does that sound like the "Marguerite Oswald" we all heard about.

And then there's Ed Voebel....

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet his mother? 
Mr. VOEBEL. I think I met her one time, and for some reason I had a picture in my mind which was different from when I saw her in the paper after all of this happened. I didn't recognize her. She was a lot thinner, and her hair wasn't as gray, as I recall it, when I met her. Of course, this was about 8 years ago, but I can remember she had a black dress on, and she was sitting down smoking a cigarette; now, maybe she wasn't smoking, but this is a picture that comes to my mind as I recall that. 

Of course, none of these people could have possibly known about the elaborate charade that comprised the Oswald Project, but they clearly were surprised at phony Marguerite's appearance in 1964.  

Mr. and Mrs. Evans both testified that the Lee Harvey Oswald they knew was loud and boisterous, with a "foghorn voice."  This is certainly not the quiet, withdrawn, passive-aggresive kid described by the Warren Commision.

 

We have company arriving and so I'll be gone for most of the remaining day.  That should give Tracy a chance to declare victory at least several more times.

No, Tracy, what I think is funny is your inability to address the NYC/New Orleans school overlap in your own words.  Now that’s comedy!

But since you brought up the subject of the Bronx Zoo photo of Harvey Oswald, let’s take a look.

This is one of the photos John Pic was shown when he told the Warren Commission it did not appear to be his own half brother.  And according to the WC, Pic and LHO had been living together in New York City at the same time this picture was taken.  Pic said that he and LHO always considered themselves brothers, not half-brothers.  How can you not recognize your own brother?

Tracy wants us to believe the image above shows a well-built kid.  Really?  Look at the size of his head compared to his scrawny body.  Look at his skinny arms.  Consider the words of his brother who lived with him.

The very next year, a photo was taken of American-born Lee Oswald at Beauregard junior high.

Now that is an image of what you might call a well-built kid.  

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Don't hold your breath for Tracy to explain in his own words how the conflicting records were produced.  He never will.  He'll just provide links to places that don't explain it either and try to change the subject.  Watch him do it again... it's really kind of funny.

And it's getting funnier by the minute.

BTW, by "scientific evidence" what he means is his long summaries of the Warren Commission and HSCA cover-ups.

11 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Jim Hargrove said:

Fine.  I’m going to continue to bring this up again and again, as well as your obvious unwillingness to condemn the FBI’s proven malfeasance in the Kennedy case. 

You can bring it up for the next 50 years and my reply will be the same. Parker has provided an answer that you disagree with, but he has provided one. It is real words printed on paper in a book and that is a fact. The readers here can decide who they want to believe.

Readers will note that, as always, Tracy Parnell refuses to explain how school records clearly show that “Lee Harvey Oswald” attended classes simultaneously in New York City and New Orleans, some thirteen hundred miles apart.  Tracy points to other websites, other threads, and insists the answers can be found there, which they can’t.  He will not put an explanation in his own words because he knows how foolish it will sound.  So he’ll continue to point everywhere but here.

Possible explanations for the school record conflicts are quite simple.  Here are two explanations in my own words:

American-born LEE Oswald, briefly living with the Murrets at 809 French St. probably enrolled at Beauregard at the start of the 2nd semester on 1/13/54. We can’t say for sure how Russian-speaking HARVEY’s info from the previous semester got onto LEE’s cumulative record, but it clearly did and there are several reasonable guesses as to how. One is that an office worker at Beauregard who took LEE’s enrollment information started to file it and then noticed the previous semester’s info for the exact (or nearly exact) same name. Logically assuming it was the same student, the fall semester info was added to LEE’s spring semester enrollment info, all the data eventually being transferred to the cumulative record.
 
Or, equally likely, some FBI flunky created the whole record designed to merge the identities of two different students and didn’t remember or know about the NYC conflict.
 

Don't hold your breath for Tracy to explain in his own words how the conflicting records were produced.  He never will.  He'll just provide links to places that don't explain it either and try to change the subject.  Watch him do it again... it's really kind of funny.

11 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

The “undernourished Harvey” is a myth that is now debunked.

I just gotta love how Tracy declares victory in almost every post, even when he is being run over by the evidence.

In his February 7th 1964 letter to Jackie Kennedy, Dr. Milton Kurian described the “Lee Harvey Oswald” he met as a “slender, underdeveloped boy.”

 

 

That description, of course describes Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald, not the larger American-born Lee Oswald.

In his 1965 book The Two Assassins, Dr. Renatus Hartogs described the Oswald he met as a “slender, dark-haired boy with a pale, haunted face ... I remember thinking how slight he seemed for his thirteen years. He had an underfed look, reminiscent of the starved children I had seen in concentration camps.

 

 

So, in a letter written long before the WC published its crooked findings, Dr. Kurian described Oswald as “underdeveloped.” In a book written in 1965, Dr. Hartogs described him even more starkly.

After the FBI and the WC were done… uh… “processing” this evidence, the slight, malnourished Harvey becomes “well built.”

We have proven time and time again that the FBI and the WC falsified important information endlessly.  Tracy has never tried to dispute those proofs.

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” 

― Leo Tolstoy

The Warren Commission tries to investigate Oswald's childhood

 

After the assassination the Warren Commission assigned a young staff attorney,

John Hart Ely, to locate, gather, and organize information on the background of Lee

Harvey Oswald and his family. Ely, like so many US citizens in the early 1960s, trusted

our government and the FBI.

 

Ely was a young attorney, not an investigator, and depended upon the FBI to

interview Oswald's friends, classmates and relatives, and furnish their reports to the

Commission. A few months into his work, after receiving only a handful of FBI reports

relating to Oswald's background and early life, Ely became concerned. He communi­-

cated his concerns about the FBI's apparent lack of investigation into Oswald's back­-

ground with fellow Warren Commission attorneys.

 

A short while later John Ely read articles in Life Magazine and found that re­-

porters had interviewed Oswald's grammar school classmates in Fort Worth. He could

not understand why the FBI had not interviewed those same people and began to re­-

alize that the FBI had not conducted a thorough investigation into Oswald's background.

 

Ely compiled a list of 13 people who had been interviewed by Life Magazine

and, on March 20, 1964, wrote a memo to Wesley J. Liebeler. Ely wrote, "once again let

me urge that we should not have to rely upon Life Magazine for such a list. The FBI

should undertake a systematic investigation and interview of Oswald's closest school

friends."²⁶ Copies of the memo were sent to Warren Commission Attorneys Rankin,

Willens, Jenner and Meek. ^53-02

 

 

Ely continued to gather FBI reports, Warren Commission testimony, Commis­-

sion documents, Secret Service reports, etc. in an attempt to piece together the life and

background of Lee Harvey Oswald and his family. Ely wrote hundreds of pages of

memorandums which were used in preparing the Warren Report, that are now located

in the National Archives.

 

Assembling, sorting, analyzing, and writing memorandums and a final report on

Oswald's background left Ely little time to resolve discrepancies. From his memoran­

dums it is apparent that Ely was aware of certain discrepancies in Oswald's life, but it

is not known if he realized their significance or made any attempts to resolve them.

 

One discrepancy known to Ely is contained in a letter written by Dr. Milton

Kurian, a New York Psychiatrist and former president of the American Psychiatric As­

sociation, to Jackie Kennedy after the assassination. ^53-03 Dr. Kurian told Mrs. Kennedy

that while working with the New York Court system, in March 1953, he interviewed

young Oswald in his office. W hen John Ely reviewed the letter, he realized that Dr.

Kurian had interviewed Oswald several weeks before Oswald appeared in court and was

remanded to the Youth House.

 

 

 

Ely wrote, "he (Kurian) states that the interview (with Oswald) occurred toward

the end of March, 1953; however, in view of the fact that he refers to a report from Youth

House which had been prepared prior to his seeing the boy, it must have been later in

that year."²⁷ Ely, without ever contacting or interviewing Dr. Kurian, concluded the

doctor must be in error and did no further checking. Had Ely telephoned Dr. Kurian,

the good doctor could have told him about his meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald. Ely

should have made the call.

 

NOTE: If Ely did not have the time to interview Kurian, he could have asked the FBI

to interview him.

 

In 1964 Ely wrote a 26-page memorandum about Oswald's life from 12/26/42 to

9/28/56.²⁸ The memorandum contained information from Oswald's interviews with pro­-

bation officer John Carro, Psychiatrist Renatus Hartogs, social worker Evelyn Strickman,

psychologist Irving Sokolow, and staff reports from Youth House, but did not mention Dr.

Kurian.

 

It is difficult to understand why Ely would not be interested in the professional

opinion of a New York psychiatrist who was the past president of the American Psychi­-

atric Association, and had interviewed young Oswald in 1953. Ely never bothered to

telephone or contact Dr. Kurian, even though Kurian's letter, stating clearly that he had

interviewed Oswald, was in his file.

 

Dr. Milton Kurian

 

In 1997 I telephoned Dr. Milton Kurian at his home in Leeds, MA and listened

carefully as he described his interview with Lee Harvey Oswald in 1953. Dr. Kurian

clearly remembered the interview as it occurred on his last day of work for the Domestic

Relations Court as he was cleaning out his desk.

 

Dr. Kurian remembered that his receptionist opened the door to his office and

asked if he had time to see one of the probation officers. Dr. Kurian explained the event

as he remembered, "I was soon in conversation with a young probation officer who was

extending himself in order to assist a boy in trouble. The probation officer had a report

from the Youth House where the boy had seen a psychologist. The probation officer was

anxious to understand the findings and recommendations contained in the report so that

he could formulate a recommendation to the judge of the Domestic Relations Court."²⁹

 

After Dr. Kurian read the report, he remarked to the probation officer that it was

often difficult to review another person's work. He explained that he always felt more

comfortable speaking directly with the individual before passing judgment. The pro­-

bation officer then escorted a slender, underdeveloped young boy into Dr. Kurian's of­

fice and introduced him as Lee Harvey Oswald.³⁰

 

Dr. Kurian was surprised when told that Oswald was 13 years old as he appeared

quite small for his age and stood no more than 4-foot-6 or 4-foot-8 (Dr. Kurian was 5-

foot-7.

 

NOTE: Oswald's height of 4-foot-6 or 4-foot-8 was in sharp contrast to New York school

records, which are published in the Warren Volumes and list Oswald's height a month later

(May, 1953) at 5-foot-4-1 /2. ^53-04

 

 

Dr. Kurian said, "Young Oswald slowly entered my office and looked behind the

door and around the small room as if expecting to find someone else. He was very quiet

and introverted. I began speaking with him in order to see if he would furnish informa­-

tion about himself.

 

He told me about his mother's 5 marriages (the tall, nice-looking Marguerite

Oswald was married 3 times) and how his step-fathers, with the exception of one man,

were cruel to him (the only step-father Oswald knew was Edwin Ekdahl when Oswald

was 6-8 years old). He spoke of his brothers who he said often provoked him to the point

of 'blind rage.' One brother would hold his head at arms length and would laugh as

young Oswald flailed the air in an attempt to strike his brother. He explained that he

never went to school but, on occasion, his brother would substitute for him and take his place

in school. "³¹

 

NOTE: Dr. Kurian was unaware that Oswald's two brothers were much too old, and

physically too large, to substitute for their 13-year-old brother in the 7th grade. Robert,

the closest brother in age to Lee, was almost 19 years old and in the Marines. John Pic

was 21 years old, married, and in the Coast Guard. W ho was the young boy who occa­-

sionally took Oswald's place in school? It was certainly not one of his brothers.

 

Dr. Kurian said, "I sensed that Oswald was withdrawn from the real world and

responded to outside pressures to a degree necessary to avoid the disturbance of his

residence in a fantasy world. My impression was the boy was mentally ill, an illness

which actually began in his mother's childhood." Dr. Kurian's conclusion was that

Oswald was a sick boy who belonged in a hospital for children. This was the first and

only time Dr. Kurian saw young Oswald, and the interview occurred on his last day of

work at the Domestic Relations Court. The interview with Oswald was spontaneous

and, as a result, Dr. Kurian made no written record. After the assassination Dr. Kurian

telephoned the FBI, spoke with an agent, and described his interview with young

Oswald in 1953. The agent thanked him, but never re-contacted him nor made any

effort to interview him in person.

 

NOTE: In 1997 Dr. Kurian and his wife, Sue, attended a JFK conference in Dallas.

Kurian spoke briefly about his interview with Oswald in 1953 and answered questions

from the audience.

 

Two reports from the Youth House

 

On May 1, 1953 Evelyn Strickman requested progress reports on Oswald, which

were subsequently written by staff members who worked the day and evening shifts.

CR Caffee wrote, "Lee is a quiet, well developed boy that seems to have adjusted fairly

well to the routine of the floor and house. He gets along well with the rest of the group

and there hasn't been many (sic) occasions for reprimand for altercations and no fights."^53-05

 

But V.F. Rainey, who worked the PM shift, had a different opinion and wrote, "Lee,

as has been reported by way of Special Behavior Report, has been apart both bodily and

mentally from the group and its activities. When he is on the floor, he usually sits to him­

self and reads what ever is available. He does not communicate with the supervisors

other than when he is asked a direct question, and then his answer is very terse." ^53-06

 

Dr. Renatus Hartogs

 

On May 1, Youth House Psychiatrist Renatus Hartogs, a colleague of Dr.

Kurians, examined Lee Harvey Oswald. Hartogs summarized his report on Oswald and

wrote, "This 13-year-old well built boy has superior mental resources and functions only

slightly below his capacity level in spite of chronic truancy from school which brought

him into Youth House. No finding of neurological impairment or psychotic mental

changes could be made. Lee has to be diagnosed as 'personality pattern disturbance with

schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies. "'³²

 

Dr. Hartogs' physical description of Oswald as a well-built boy was consistent

with descriptions of Lee Oswald by fellow students of Ridglea West Elementary School

in Fort Worth a year earlier. It is also consistent with New York health records that re­-

corded Oswald's height at 5-foot-4-1/2, less than a month after his interview with Dr.

Hartogs.

 

But Dr. Hartogs' physical description of the Oswald he interviewed was in sharp

contrast to the boy interviewed by Dr. Kurian, who described Oswald as a 13-year-old

youth who appeared quite small for his age, and stood no more than 4-foot-6 or 4-foot-

8 (Dr. Kurian was 5-foot-7).

 

In 1965 Dr. Hartogs wrote a book titled "The Two Assassins" in which his physi­-

cal description of Oswald was in sharp contrast to his physical description of Oswald in

1953. The "well-built boy," as described by Dr. Hartogs in his 1953 report, was now

described as "A slender, dark-haired boy with a pale, haunted face ... I remember thinking how

slight he seemed for his thirteen years. He had an underfed look, reminiscent of the starved chil­-

dren I had seen in concentration camps."³³ Dr. Hartogs' two very different physical descrip­-

tions of Oswald remain unexplained and he appears to be describing two different boys.

 

--from Harvey and Lee, pp. 56-59, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong. Reproduced here with author’s permission. 

Document images from the CD accompanying the book are incorporated at the footnoted locations above.

 

 

7 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Time to move on from this subject Jim. I have offered a simple explanation for the records, you don't accept it which is understandable since you would have to give up the H&L fantasy. The members here can decide. Now, it is time for another edition of "Harvey and Lee Howlers." We saw that Jim would not answer howler #1, which has Armstrong inexplicably trying to convince us that Renatus Hartogs saw both Harvey and Lee.

Tracy,

Do you really think anyone who bothers to read significant portions of this long thread won’t notice your third-rate debate tricks here? You have not “offered a simple explanation” for the overlapping New York City/New Orleans school attendance records, or even a complicated explanation of those records, or any explanation at all.  All you do is claim to have done so when you in fact haven't, point to other websites, point to other threads on this site, and try to make it all go away.  You have no explanation.  Greg Parker has no explanation.  And neither of you can man up enough to face it.

Fine.  I’m going to continue to bring this up again and again, as well as your obvious unwillingness to condemn the FBI’s proven malfeasance in the Kennedy case.  But for now, let’s discuss what I’m calling…

PARNELL’S PRATFALL #1

Since you bring up the book above, let's begin by seeing what John ACTUALLY wrote about Drs. Renatus Hartogs and Milton Kurian.  See my next post for the three-page excerpt from Harvey and Lee. The write-ups on the two doctors comes near the end; the rest is for context.  At the appropriate places I've added document images from the CD accompanying the book.

Tracy’s comments are in black, my responses are in red.

 

To accept the H&L scenario regarding the NYC/Beauregard school records you must:

 

Believe the explanation of Wilfred Head to the FBI. Seems reasonable. But since the H&L team believes the FBI falsified records whenever necessary, why would they allow Head’s explanation to be released to the public where it could be later discovered by the H&L sleuths and thus reveal the plot?

 

The FBI made a mistake and missed it. This entire cover-up was led by the FBI, and they did a reasonably good job, but they inevitably made mistakes. Striking an entire human being off the official record is a complicated task, even for an organization with the talent and resources of the FBI. We are reconstructing what happened based on evidence the FBI failed to hide or correctly modify.

 

Believe that although “Harvey”, according to H&L, moved to 126 Exchange and entered Beauregard in September, 1953, the record says he started January 13, 1954 and lived at 809 French St.

 

American-born LEE Oswald, briefly living with the Murrets at 809 French St. probably enrolled at Beauregard at the start of the 2^nd semester on 1/13/54. We can’t say for sure how Russian-speaking HARVEY’s info from the previous semester got onto LEE’s cumulative record, but it clearly did and there are several reasonable guesses as to how. One is that an office worker at Beauregard who took LEE’s enrollment information started to file it and then noticed the previous semester’s info for the exact (or nearly exact) same name. Logically assuming it was the same student, the fall semester info was added to LEE’s spring semester enrollment info, all the data eventually being transferred to the cumulative record.

 

Or, equally likely, some FBI flunky created the whole record designed to merge the identities of two different students and didn’t remember or know about the NYC conflict.

 

If you believe the above, you have to believe that either “Harvey” also lived at 809 French, or that the records were falsified. If you believe the former, you have to explain how Lillian Murret could risk having both “Harvey” and “Lee” live with her at different times. After all, anyone could happen by her place and she would have to explain “Harvey” being a long lost relative to someone who could potentially know better. If you believe the records are falsified, you have to show how and who was in on the plot to do this. You also have to explain what happened to “Lee’s” records.

 

You need to least make an effort to comprehend the analysis you are trying to debunk, Tracy. The records that exist today are almost entirely Lee’s. Lee stayed briefly at 809 French St., was in homeroom 303 on the third floor, as the records show, while Harvey was in the homeroom in the basement. The question is, how did Harvey’s records from the spring semester get on Lee’s cumulative record? I’ve suggested two possibilities immediately above, and I’ve been asking and asking for you to give one in your own words, but you won’t.

 

Believe that no one noticed that there were two boys named “Oswald” attending the same school-one named Lee and one named Harvey. We know that the name Harvey was used because that is what Armstrong’s star witness Myra DaRouse stated. Why was “Harvey” never recorded in school photos or documented in any other way? Remember, LHO was in yearbooks and candid photos that eventually became available. What was to stop anyone with a camera from taking a picture and exposing the plot or documenting “Harvey” in some other way?

 

Look at photographs of the Beauregard school building. It was, and remains, a big school. If you have a “Lee Harvey Oswald” on the third floor and a “Lee Harvey Oswald” or “Lee H. Oswald” in the basement, who’s going to notice, except perhaps the central office record keepers, which may explain the cumulative record we have now. And as I’ve said many times, Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald clearly only had half a life. Time and again he was given a taste of American-born Lee Oswald’s world, and soon removed, probably to avoid as much as possible showing up on official records, in yearbooks, and the like. Harvey was probably pulled out of Beauregard and placed in Stripling for the very reasons you describe.

 

Believe that Ed Voebel knew both “Harvey” and “Lee” and never became suspicious. Voebel never mentioned to authorities after the assassination that he had known not only LHO but another Oswald boy named Harvey. Why wouldn’t he think this information was relevant? BTW, Armstrong thinks Voebel was one of the “mystery deaths” but they waited until 1971 to do the job for some unexplained reason.

 

No, you’re misrepresenting the facts again, Tracy. It was Ed Voebel’s father, not John Armstrong, who told the HSCA he thought his son’s death was suspicious. It was Ed’s father who said his son’s doctor asked if the kid had been around poisons recently.

 

To accept that there was only one Lee Harvey Oswald you must:

 

Believe that Head could have been wrong and the explanation Greg Parker offered is reasonable.

 

Greg Parker has not offered any explanation at all. Again, why don’t you try?