Jim Hargrove

Sandy.... Thanks SO MUCH for your serious research and contribution to this thread!! Your private message has been forwarded to JA. Your work is MOST APPRECIATED!!!! --Jim HarveyandLee.net

* Sen. Richard Schweiker said, "We do know Oswald had intelligence connections. Everywhere you look with him, there're fingerprints of intelligence." * Victor Marchetti was the former Executive Assistant to the Deputy Director of the CIA. Marchetti said, "The more I have learned, the more concerned I have become that the government was involved in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy." * CIA Agent Donald Norton said, "Oswald was with the CIA, and if he did it then you better believe the whole CIA was involved." * Former CIA agent Joseph Newbrough said, "Oswald was an agent for the CIA and acting under orders." * CIA accountant James B. Wilcott said Oswald received "a full-time salary for agent work for doing CIA operational work." * CIA Agent John Garrett Underhill told friends, just before he died, "Oswald is a patsy. They set him up. They've killed the President. I've been listening and hearing things. I couldn't believe they'd get away with it, but they did." * CIA Agent William Gaudet said, "The man who probably knows as much as anybody alive on all of this... is... I still think is Howard Hunt"----CIA Agent and Watergate burglar E. Howard Hunt. * CIA employee Donald Deneslya read reports of a CIA agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child--that agent could only have been Oswald. * Richard Sprague, chief counsel to the U.S. House Select Committee on Assassinations said, "If he had it to do over again, he would begin his investigation of the Kennedy assassination by probing 'Oswald's ties to the Central Intelligence Agency." * CIA officer David Phillips provided the Warren Commission with information that Oswald was at the Russian and Cuban embassies in Mexico City, then later admitted that the information he had provided was false. * HSCA counsel Robert Tanenbaum said “Lee Harvey Oswald was a contract employee of the CIA and the FBI.” * Marvin Watson, an adviser to President Lyndon Johnson, said that Johnson had told him that he was convinced that there was a plot in connection with the assassination. Watson said the President felt the CIA had something to do with this plot.

The day Jack Ruby shot and killed "Lee Harvey Oswald," America and the world began to realize that the JFK assassination was a conspiracy. It became a visceral understanding, and no amount of investigatory tap-dancing has changed that simple fact in more than half a century. Whatever WC defenders such as W. Tracy Parnell or the others here say to the contrary is irrelevant. Anyone who makes a career out of trying to debunk Harvey and Lee without bothering to read the source of it all--the 1,000+ page book with nearly a thousand pages of documents and photos on the CD--seems interested only, imo, in suppressing the work rather than first, at least, understanding it. Once more.... What is utterly remarkable about Greg Parker's thousands of posts here and elsewhere attempting to criticize Harvey and Lee is that, by his own admission, HE HAS NEVER READ THE BOOK! He has no idea what John Armstrong wrote about Renatus Hartogs or anyone or anything else! Let the chorus of Parker Defenders now ring forth, but this hardly seems to be the behavior of a real researcher!

What is utterly remarkable about Greg Parker's thousands of posts here and elsewhere attempting to criticize Harvey and Lee is that, by his own admission, HE HAS NEVER READ THE BOOK! He has no idea what John Armstrong wrote about Renatus Hartogs or anyone or anything else! So, let's give the hapless Mr. Parker some help by giving him an opportunity to read what John Armstrong actually wrote about Dr. Hartogs: Dr. Renatus Hartogs On May 1, Youth House Psychiatrist Renatus Hartogs, a colleague of Dr. Kurian's, examined Lee Harvey Oswald. Hartogs summarized his report on Oswald and wrote, "This 13-year-old well built boy has superior mental resources and functions only slightly below his capacity level in spite of chronic truancy from school which brought him into Youth House. No finding of neurological impairment or psychotic mental changes could be made. Lee has to be diagnosed as 'personality pattern disturbance with schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies. "'32 Dr. Hartogs' physical description of Oswald as a well-built boy was consistent with descriptions of Lee Oswald by fellow students of Ridglea West Elementary School in Fort Worth a year earlier. It is also consistent with New York health records that re- corded Oswald's height at 5-foot-4-1/2, less than a month after his interview with Dr. Hartogs. But Dr. Hartogs' physical description of the Oswald he interviewed was in sharp contrast to the boy interviewed by Dr. Kurian, who described Oswald as a 13-year-old youth who appeared quite small for his age, and stood no more than 4-foot-6 or 4-foot- 8 (Dr. Kurian was 5-foot-7). In 1965 Dr. Hartogs wrote a book titled "The Two Assassins" in which his physi- cal description of Oswald was in sharp contrast to his physical description of Oswald in 1953. The "well-built boy," as described by Dr. Hartogs in his 1953 report, was now described as "A slender, dark-haired boy with a pale, haunted face . . . . remember thinking how slight he seemed for his thirteen years. He had an underfed look, reminiscent of the starved chil- dren I had seen in concentration camps."33 Dr. Hartogs' two very different physical descrip- tions of Oswald remain unexplained and he appears to be describing two different boys. --From Harvey and Lee, p. 59 Isn't it remarkable that, despite all the names Parker calls us ("nuts," and "lunatics" and "clowns" and so much more) he behaves more like a true lunatic than J.A. or his fans ever did--by devoting much of his life to criticizing a book he has never read!

Please make note of the Super Member here who is working hard to discredit Youth House Psychiatrist Renatus Hartogs and his book, The Two Assassins. Please note also how one-time President of the American Psychiatric Association, Dr. Milton Kurian, agreed with Mr. Hartogs' observations. From The Early Years of Harvey and Lee on my website: HARVEY Oswald's continual truancy at PS 117 came to the attention of the Bureau of Attendance. On April 14, 1953 HARVEY was adjudged a "school truant," ordered to appear in court, and then remanded to the Youth House in Manhattan. Psychologist Irving Sokolow described young Oswald as a slender youngster and gave him an IQ test. HARVEY achieved a score of 118, considerably higher than the IQ score of 102 that LEE Oswald received in Ft. Worth. Probation Officer John Carro described young Oswald (HARVEY) as a small boy, a bright boy, a likeable boy, and remembered that he was extremely guarded when discussing certain areas of his life. Carro took Oswald (HARVEY) to the office of Psychiatrist Milton Kurian, who was surprised to learn that Oswald was 13 years old. Dr. Kurian said, "He appeared quite small for his age and stood no more than 4 ft 6 or 4 ft 8. He was very quiet and introverted. Oswald (HARVEY) told Dr. Kurian that he never went to school but, on occasion, his brother would substitute for him and take his place in school. Dr. Kurian later became President of the American Psychiatric Association. Following the assassination he wrote a letter to Jackie Kennedy and told her about his meeting with young Oswald in 1953, but Dr. Kurian was never interviewed by the FBI, HSCA, or any government agency. On May 1, Youth House Psychiatrist Renatus Hartogs examined Oswald. In his book, The Two Assassins, Hartogs described Oswald (HARVEY) as "a slender, dark-haired boy with a pale, haunted face....I remember thinking how slight he seemed for his 13 years. He had an underfed look, reminiscent of the starved children I had seen in concentration camps." CLICK HERE to see John Armstrong's multi-part YouTube interview with Dr. Kurian.

Want to see why Greg Parker is working so hard to declare John Armstrong and me (and David and Steven) lunatics?? Click the link below! HarveyandLee.net You won't get cooties, though Parker wants you to believe you will. He pretends to get viruses, even though no one else does. Why would ANYONE--much less "Super Member" Greg Parker-- work so hard attempting to discredit one little researcher like John Armstrong?

. Also from the Harvey and Lee website, this time on the EARLY LIVES OF HARVEY AND LEE PAGE: On May 1, Youth House Psychiatrist Renatus Hartogs examined Oswald. In his book, The Two Assassins, Hartogs described Oswald (HARVEY) as "a slender, dark-haired boy with a pale, haunted face....I remember thinking how slight he seemed for his 13 years. He had an underfed look, reminiscent of the starved children I had seen in concentration camps." Sheesh! An admin here shuts down the Harvey and Lee thread, and so you just open up new H&L attack topics! How typical of your desperation to try and discredit Harvey and Lee. Now, of course, you have to try and discredit Hartogs, along with anyone else providing evidence there were two different people sharing the identity of “Lee Harvey Oswald.” You sure seem far more anxious to criticize Harvey and Lee than to “Reopen the Kennedy Case.”

C'mon, Greg, You've GOT to work HARDER!!

In the fall of 1994, a schoolteacher at Northside Middle School in Roanoke, Virginia, Mr. Richard Duncan, wrote a letter to President Kennedy's former secretary, Evelyn Lincoln, asking about the assassination of President Kennedy. On October 7, 1994, Ms. Lincoln replied and wrote: Dear Richard, It was a pleasure to receive your kind letter concerning your desire to obtain my assessment of President Kennedy's administration and assassination to pass along to your students. I am sending along to you an. article which was written by Muriel Press- man for the "Lady's Circle" October 1964, and was recently reprinted in a cur- rent issue of that magazine, which will give you an insight into my impression of the man. As for the assassination is concerned it is my belief that there was a con- spiracy because there were those that disliked him and felt the only way to get rid of him was to assassinate him. These five conspirators, in my opinion, were Lyndon B. Johnson, ]. Edgar Hoover, the Mafia, the CIA, and the Cubans in Florida. The House Intelligence Committee investigation, also, came to the conclusion there was a conspiracy. My very best wishes to you and your students. Sincerely, Evelyn Lincoln --From Harvey and Lee, pp. 982-983

LOL!!! Nice graphics, David!!!

How LEE framed HARVEY: In June, July, and August 1963, while HARVEY, Marina, and June were living in New Orleans, Jack Ruby spent a lot of time with LEE Oswald in Dallas. During the next 2-1/2 months a young man, identified by witnesses as “Lee Harvey Oswald," appeared in various locations in order to create the impression that he was a communist, a supporter of Castro, a good marksman who owned an Italian carbine rifle, carried that rifle in a 4-1/2 ft long package wrapped in brown paper that he said contained “curtain rods”, knew about President Kennedy's trip to Dallas, and would soon receive a large amount of money. Someone was setting up/framing HARVEY Oswald as the assassin of President Kennedy—the former Russian speaking “defector” to the Soviet Union, with a Russian wife, who recently handed out FPCC literature in New Orleans in support of Castro. The most likely person to devise and create such a ruse was the CIA's head of Cuban propaganda--David Atlee Phillips (Mexico City). Someone was needed to impersonate HARVEY Oswald in Dallas, and who better than LEE Oswald. And someone close to LEE Oswald was needed to pass along Phillips' instructions and direct him as to where to go and what to do—and that man was likely Jack Ruby. During the next two months that preceded the assassination, LEE Oswald followed instructions and “staged” one event after another in order to implicate, frame, set-up, and identify HARVEY Oswald as the future assassin of President Kennedy. Some of those “staged events” included: Sept 26 to Oct 3--Mexico City, “Lee Harvey Oswald” was supposed to have taken bus to Mexico City and visited the Cuban Consulate and Embassy. However, available evidence and the complete lack of documentation shows that the entire Mexico City “episode” was the CIA's attempt to link Oswald with Cuba. Four Dallas deputy constables (fully empowered peace county-wide jurisdiction) inspected a box containing documents that linked Ruby and Oswald. Deputies Billy J. Preston, Ben Cash, and John Callaghan reported they had seen a motel near New Orleans with Ruby and Oswald's names dated several weeks before the assassination of President Kennedy. They said the receipts showed several phone calls had been placed to Mexico, to numbers identified as the Cuban and Russian embassies. The supervisor (Robie Love), personally turned the box over to Dallas DA Henry Wade, and the box disappeared. Oct 4 (Fri), LEE Oswald arrived at the Carousel Club about 10:00 pm and began talking with Jack Ruby. Dallas attorney Carroll Jarnagin was sitting nearby and heard Oswald say, “I just got in from New Orleans.” Ruby replied, “I noticed you hadn't been around in two or three weeks.” After listening to their conversation Jarnagin realized they were talking about assassinating Texas Governor John Connally. Following the assassination Jarnagin recognized the younger man as “Lee Harvey Oswald” and on 12/3/63 prepared a lengthy statement detailing the conversation he overheard between Ruby and Oswald and gave it to the FBI. Oct 14 (Mon), Texas Employment Commission. Counselor Laura Kittrell interviewed HARVEY Oswald, who said he had just arrived from New Orleans and was looking for work. Laura recalled that Oswald had a “sketchy” background in off-set printing (Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall), and arranged for him to take GATB tests. The following Monday at 1:00 PM HARVEY took the tests, and this was his last meeting with Laura Kittrell. Oct 16 (Wed), HARVEY Oswald began working full time at the TSBD. Oct 17 (Thur), TEC. A man closely resembling HARVEY Oswald showed up at Laura Kittrell's office. Laura said, “I looked up from my desk and there he was, standing beside it, and grinning.” The young man was wearing a red and white checkered sport shirt and said, “The Claims Office sent me back to you. You got to change my Primary Code. You got to change it back to what it was in the beginning. I have just joined the Teamsters Union. Joined last night." At first Laura thought the man was (HARVEY) Oswald. But after talking with him she realized that this was not the man who took the GATB tests the previous Monday. This man was more interested in collecting unemployment compensation than finding a job. She wondered if (HARVEY) Oswald had sent this man in his place to try and collect unemployment. She later recalled, “Although the man I remember as (HARVEY) Oswald and the man I remember as the Teamster (LEE Oswald) were much alike in size, shape, and outline, there was a marked difference between them in bearing and manner.” As Laura Kittrell was interviewing (LEE) Oswald, HARVEY Oswald was working full-time at the TSBD. Oct 26 (Sat), the Sports Drome Rifle Range, where LEE Oswald sighted in his rifle and showed off his shooting ability (HARVEY was at Ruth Paine's house with wife and daughters). Nov 1 (Fri), three weeks before the assassination Wally Weston, master of ceremonies at the Carousel and a good friend of Ruby's, was on stage. A young man walked up to the stage and said, “I think you're a communist.” Weston jumped off the stage and hit the man, while Ruby grabbed the man and said, “I told you to never to come in here,” and then threw him out of the club. After the assassination Weston recognized the man as LEE Harvey Oswald. (HARVEY was at Ruth Paine's house with wife and daughters). Nov 2 (Sat), Downtown Lincoln Mercury, where a man who identified himself as LHO test drove a Mercury Comet. He told salesman Al Bogard that he would return in a couple of weeks with $3500 in cash to purchase the car. (HARVEY was at Ruth Paine's house with wife and daughters). Nov 2 (Sat), Morgan's Gun Shop. A young man, who claimed to be a former Marine, arrived at the shop and wanted to purchase ammunition. He created a bad impression and soon left. The clerk and three customers later identified the man as LHO (HARVEY was at Ruth Paine's house with wife and daughters). Nov 6 (Wed) or Nov 7 (Thur), Furniture Mart in Irving, TX., where a young man arrived in a 1957 blue and white Ford with wife. He was carrying an object wrapped in paper that was about 15 inches long and looked like it was part of a gun. The man asked Mrs. Whitworth for a gun part and was told the store no longer had a gun department. Following the assassination Mrs. Whitworth and her friend, Gertrude Hunter, identified the young man as LHO and the woman who accompanied him as Marina Oswald (HARVEY was working at the TSBD). Nov 9 (Sat), Sports Drome Rifle Range. LEE Oswald had his rifle sighted-in by Floyd Guy Davis, owner of the range. (HARVEY was at Ruth Paine's house with wife and daughters). Nov 10 (Sun), Sports Drome Rifle Range. LEE Oswald was observed by Garland Slack firing a rifle on a 100-yard line in booth #6 or #8. That evening Harvey Lawill Wade saw a man he later identified as LHO sitting at a table with two other men in the Carousel Club (HARVEY was at Ruth Paine's house with wife and daughters). Nov 14 (Thurs), At 12:40 PM Jack Ruby came into the New Port Motel in Morgan City, LA. He asked clerk Corrine Verges Villard if he could speak with Pete Guarisco, and was told that Pete was attending a Rotary Club meeting. As Jack and Corrine began to talk a young man, wearing a white t-shirt and faded blue jeans, entered and sat at a nearby table. Jack talked with Corrine for a half-hour, discussed his business in Dallas, and said that he was trying to charter a plane out of Patterson, LA (7 miles from Morgan City). At 1:10 PM Ruby walked out the front door while the young man walked out the side door. Both men got into same vehicle and drove away. When shown a photo of Oswald, Corrine said that she was sure this was the man who sat at the nearby table a week earlier (HARVEY was working at the TSBD in Dallas). Nov 16 (Sat), Sports Drome Rifle Range. LEE Oswald entered booth #5 and began firing his rifle. Dr. Homer Wood and his 13-year old son, Sterling Charles Wood, asked the man if he was shooting a 6.5 Italian carbine. The man replied, “Yes, it is.” Following the assassination both Dr. Wood and his son identified the man as LHO (HARVEY was at Ruth Paine's house with wife and daughters). Nov 17 (Sun), Sports Drome Rifle Range. LEE Oswald made sure he would be remembered as he shot at targets that belonged to Garland Slack, the man in the next booth. After leaving the rifle range LEE Oswald drove to Jack's Bar on Exposition St. in Dallas. It was there that LEE met Vern Davis, and began talking about President Kennedy's upcoming trip and specifically mentioned the Dallas Trade Mart. Jack Ruby, whom Davis had known for 10 years, entered the bar and said hello to Davis (HARVEY was at Ruth Paine's house with wife and daughters). Nov 20 (Wed), Ralph Yates picked up a hitch-hiker who was carrying a 4-1/2 ft long package that he said contained “curtain rods”. This man asked Yates if he though a man could be shot from a window in a tall building. The young man then showed Yates a photograph of a man holding a rifle and asked Yates if he thought the President could be killed with an identical rifle. The man then asked Yates if he knew the President's parade route, and then asked Yates to drop him off at Elm and Houston (TSBD). (HARVEY was working at the TSBD the entire day). Nov 21 (Thur), about 9:00 PM a young man knocked on the door of apartment #206 at 223 S. Ewing, which was occupied by an SMU Professor. A friend of the Professor, Helen McIntosh, opened the door and saw a young man who asked for “Jack”. The Professor told Miss McIntosh that “Jack” (Jack Ruby) lived next door in apartment #207. The next day, following the assassination of President Kennedy, Helen saw a photograph of LHO on television. She immediately recognized him as the man who appeared the night before at the Professor's apartment. (After work, HARVEY rode with Wesley Frazier to Ruth Paine's in Irving, TX, where he spent the evening.) Nov 22-(Fri), while LEE OSWALD was on the 6th floor of the TSBD, attracting attention from onlookers below who would be able to provide a description of the President's assassin, HARVEY Oswald was in the lunchroom. After the shooting, four witnesses saw LEE Oswald get into a Nash Rambler station wagon and leave Dealey Plaza, while HARVEY Oswald left Dealey Plaza by city bus and then by taxi. --From John Armstrong's "November in Dallas" speech Visit HarveyandLee.net.

Ahhh…. I see the H&L Hit Squad is ignoring all the inconvenient truths and posting endlessly about the CAP photo taken in the summer of 1955. As always, they declare victory over and over again, but they fail to note this is all a matter of perspective. In the photo, “Lee Harvey Oswald,” shown at the extreme right, is only about half the height of the man at extreme left (left of Ferrie). So if the fellow at the right was a little under six feet tall, that would make Lee just two feet something. Small indeed! But it is a matter of perspective. The differences in perspective seem to decrease moving left to right in the photo, but they still exist. In addition, this photo was taken more than two years after Oswald's height was measured at PS 44 in New York. CE 1384 reproduces Oswald's May 1953 PS 44 health card, showing he was 64-1/2 inches tall (5 feet 4 and a half inches) and he weighed 114 lbs. The CAP photo was taken more than two years later, given other students a chance to grow and catch up. Both Oswalds were less than six feet tall. Classmate Richard Garrett remembered that Oswald “had been the tallest, the dominant member of our group in grammar school.” And, of course, Oswald's own half-brother refused to go along with the charade, and the Warren Commission, was clearly unwilling to ask him why.

Geez, if the HARVEY AND LEE HIT SQUAD doesn't wake up and start working harder, I'm going to have to post more from Harvey and Lee. C'mon boys, GET TO WORK!! Let's hear more name-calling!! Let's hear more BS!!!

Don't click the link below. Harveyandlee.net Or the link above. For HEAVENS SAKE, DoN't CLICK HERE!!!

C'mon, disinformationists.... I'm back from vacation and waiting..... You guys have REALLY got to work harder!!!

By the way.... If you want to see the REAL DEAL about Harvey and Lee, click here: HarveyandLee.net

Here, once more, are my Top Ten reasons to believe in Harvey and Lee. Ask for my next twenty!!!! 10. The IMPOSSIBLE 1953 school scenario: Harvey at Youth House for truancy followed by Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while Lee has good attendance both semesters at PS 44 in NYC. 9. John Pic's inability to recognize clear photographs of his own brother. 8. The refusal of the Social Security Administration to corroborate the official story of "Oswald's" pre-1962 income, offering instead "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report regarding employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps." 7. The Marine Corps records are a gold mine: my favorite chronicles Harvey Oswald's trip to Formosa (Taiwan) while Lee was being treated for VD in Japan. 6. The Bolton Ford incident while Harvey was in Russia. 5. Marita Lorenz's secret testimony describing Lee Oswald with anti-Castro operatives in Miami and the Everglades while Harvey was in Russia. 4. Lee Oswald visiting the Texas Employment Commission, filling out forms and taking tests, while Harvey was in Russia. 3. The impossible answer(s) to the simple questions: Could Lee Harvey Oswald drive a car? Did he have a drivers license? 2. The well documented appearance of Lee Oswald in the balcony of the Texas Theater soon after the murder of J.D. Tippit with the simultaneous arrest of Harvey Oswald on the main floor of the same theater. 1. The behavior of the FBI in the first 48 hours of the "investigation," during which the Bureau confiscated many of "Lee Harvey Oswald's" school records and employment histories. Six months later, the Bureau decided to test for fingerprints on boxes in the so-called "sniper's nest."

In late 1960 CIA asset Marita Lorenz was in a Miami CIA safehouse with members of her group and met LEE Harvey Oswald for the first time. The HSCA interviewed her and asked about her first meeting with Oswald: Mr. Fithian: "Now is it your testimony that the first time you saw Oswald would have been in the camps in the Everglades?" Marita Lorenz: "The very first time, no. I saw him in the Safehouse and then in the camps." Mr. Fithian: "And that first meeting at the Safehouse would have been within a year of the Bay of Pigs?" Marita Lorenz: "I would say 1960." Mr. Fithian: "It would be some time during 1960?" Marita Lorenz: "Late 1960." Mr. Fithian: "All right. Now I want to be sure that I have your dates correct. You said the first meeting of LEE Harvey Oswald, the first time you saw him, was at a Safehouse in Miami in 1960." Marita Lorenz: "Yes." Mr. Fithian: "The next time or times that you saw him were during training at a camp in the Everglades, various places in the Everglades, in early 1960, 1961 period?" Marita Lorenz: "Yes." Mr. Fithian: "And after that you saw him at the Safehouse the second time?" Marita Lorenz: "Yes." Mr. Fithian: "What makes you so sure of the dates. Within a year of the first meeting in the Safehouse and the meeting at the camps in the Everglades, is there anything else you could match that up with?" Marita Lorenz: "The photographs, the events that took place. the photographs that Alex (Rorke) took. Everywhere we went Alex took pictures." Mr. Fithian: "This was prior to the Bay of Pigs?" Marita Lorenz: "Yes, April, 1961, was the Bay of Pigs." Mr. Fithian: "And you are sure you saw him (Oswald) before April, 1961." Marita Lorenz: "Yes, because Alex took the pictures." Mr. Fithian: "And the whole purpose of the training was to somehow participate or help in the Bay of Pigs. Marita Lorenz: "Yes." Mr. Fithian: "Did you see Oswald at any time in the intervening two years between early 1961 prior to April of 1961 and the September-October Safehouse meeting in 1963?" Marita Lorenz: "No, but Frank (Sturgis) kept in touch with me. Alex kept in touch with me." Mr. Fithian: "Mrs. Lorenz, has your attorney explained what perjury before a congressional committee is all about?" Marita Lorenz: "That is right, yes." Mr. Fithian: "In any way do you want to change your testimony on these dates?" Marita Lorenz: "No, I do not." Mr. Fithian: "There is adequate documentary evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald did not indeed return from the Soviet Union until June of 1962. Marita Lorenz: "I don't know about that." Mr. Fithian: "Therefore you could not have met him at the Safehouse in 1960, you could not have seen him in the Everglades in 1960 and 1961, and you could not have taken a picture in those areas and could not have a picture for the dates of that time." Marita Lorenz: "No?" Mr. Fithian: "It is not possible." Marita Lorenz: "I don't know about that." Mr. Fithian: "Now can you explain to the committee why you gave us this false information as far as dates?" Marita Lorenz: "I did not give you false information." Mr. Fithian: "Mrs. Lorenz, I went over your testimony very carefully a moment ago and you assured me that you met Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the Bay of Pigs." Marita Lorenz: "I did." Mr. Fithian: "On two occasions." Marita Lorenz: "Yes." Mr. Fithian: "Lee Harvey Oswald was in Russia during that entire period." Marita Lorenz: "I do not know that. I did not know that. The Lee Harvey Oswald that I met was the same in that picture, the one in the Safehouse. the same one that Frank knows. I do not know where he was according to your information. I do not know. I never read up on anything about these theories that are coming out about him." Mr. Fithian: "This is not a matter of theory." Marita Lorenz: "I know I am telling the truth. If you don't want it, that's too bad, you know. I am here to gain nothing, you know. Nothing. Nothing at all. You are trying a homicide investigation that should be solved, you know. Don't dispute me or put me on trial." Mr. Fithian: "Only if we can have full and truthful testimony." Marita Lorenz: "You have got it. You have it from me. I don't know about the other people. I have nothing to lose and nothing to hide-nothing. Mr. Fithian: "And it is your testimony that you are certain that the person you met at the Safehouse and at the camps of the Everglades is the same person that you met in Dallas." Marita Lorenz: "Yes, it is." Mr. Fithian: "Do you have any explanation for how we come up with two Lee Harvey Oswalds during this period?" Marita Lorenz: "I have no explanation. I know the man I met; he was a creep. I didn't like him. I don't have to be here at all. I have nothing to gain. Mr. Fithian: "Thank you. That is all." NOTE: CIA asset/photographer Alex Rorke had taken photos of LEE Oswald in Florida (1960-61) while HARVEY Oswald was in the Soviet Union. Rorke died in an airplane crash in Mexico in May 1964, along with Hugh Ward, DeLessups Morrison (former Mayor of New Orleans), his 7-year-old son Christopher, Daleigh Pellegrin and Ovide Cenac.

Did you read the rambling accusatory letter she wrote to Robert Kennedy? She's bonkers and you know it! So, Bernie, you go from stating that "not one" witness could see any differences between the two Oswalds to now trying to discredit the ones who did. And we'd better add John Pic to the list. It has frequently been shown on this very forum that Lee Harvey Oswald's own half-brother, during his sworn Warren Commission testimony, refused to identify Lee HARVEY Oswald as his brother in the famous Bronx Zoo and Fair Play for Cuba flier photos during. You know why? Because it WASN'T his brother!

In her FBI interview, Kittrell clearly indicated that the man she suspected might not be Oswald in fact identified himself as him. From the report of her interview: From p. 8: "She has concluded that the person she saw the last time wasn't really Oswald but perhaps someone he sent in his place in order to maintain his unemployment claim" From p. 9: "She said that although she suspected the fellow might no have been Oswald at the time, she wasn't sure and she didn't want to call him a L-I-A-R and create a scene without being sure." (I spelled "L-I-A-R" with hyphens so the forum software won't censor it.)

Jim, Have you,or Armstrong or any one else looked 42 USC 405 © (2) which was sited by Bynum as to why certain records were not provided? I mean, the letter states quite clearly "... redisclosure is prohibited" under this provision. Even with this in front of you, you still prefer to make up evidence-free nefarious reasons. If this theory was based on honest scholarship, a specialist lawyer would sought for an opinion on the use of 44 USC 405 © (2) in these circumstances. But again - none of you will do that for fear of of not receiving the answer you want, The information you cite is clearly shown at the bottom of the following page from my website: http://harveyandlee.net/Unraveling/Unravels.htm Although Mr. Bynum included LHO employment information from Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, William B. Reily, Leslie Welding and the Texas School Book Depository, none is offered from “Oswald's” pre-Marine service employers. Even more significantly, none of “Oswald's” pre-Marine income is listed on his lifetime earnings report. Completely missing is the income from Dolly Shoe, Tujagues, J.R. Michels, and Pfisterer Dental Lab. You have tried a number of explanations for this earlier in this thread, and all have been shot down. No doubt we'll hear more now.

You need to pay attention, Bernie. Obviously, I'm going to have to post A LOT more stuff from Harvey and Lee. As I've already shown, Richard Garrett met Harvey Oswald in junior high school and Lee Oswald in high school and was quoted by Life magazine telling the differences between the two. Laura Kittrell at the Texas Employment Commission also met both Oswalds and described the differences in great (and accurate) detail: from Harvey and Lee, p. 728: Laura said, "Although the man I remember as (Harvey) Oswald and the man I remember as the Teamster (Lee Oswald) were much alike in size, shape, and outline, generally, there was a marked difference between them in bearing and manner. The man I remember as (Harvey) Oswald was a trim, energetic, compact, well-knit person who sat on the edge of a chair, but the man I remember as the teamster was a trifling, shiftless, good-for-nothing lout who sprawled oafishly over his chair and whose move- ments seemed curiously uncoordinated, like those of a person who had been drinking, and yet I don't think he had been drinking."81 OCT,63-13 Laura also recalled, "He (the "Teamster") was slouchy and he was kind of un- kempt, not dirty, but messy and very unmilitary looking. That was one thing about Mr. (Harvey) Oswald, he always looked very military, neat as a pin, and this fellow wasn't. And he had this peculiar way of laughing and talking so that people all over the room could hear him, and Mr. (Harvey) Oswald wasn't like that at all." Kittrell said that al- though she suspected the fellow (the "Teamster") might not have been (Harvey) Oswald at the time, she wasn't sure and she didn't want to call him a xxxx and create a scene without being sure.82 A number of other witnesses noted that the "Oswald" they saw on television after the assassination was not the Oswald they originally encountered. I'll make a list some time.

Have any of you ever contacted the Social Security Admin and asked them? If not, why not? Maybe it only includes "working life" income? Working life income is used to assess pension entitlements and life insurance/superannuation payouts etc. It is usually defined as income earned from a certain age to a nominal retirement age e.g. 16 to 65. But you guys won't check it out in case you don't get the answer you want. You don't really know why it wasn't included, but it sure helps your cause to be able to attribute a nefarious reason! Nice try. But the Oswald you defend was clearly between the ages of 16 and 65 in 1956. And, of course, if there was ANY truth to what you say, Mr. Bynum would have simply explained it, rather than offer three pages from the Warren Commission report as an explanation. Don't worry, though. Sooner or later, SSA will feel compelled to offer an excuse. Why don't you call them and get one? http://harveyandlee.net/Unraveling/Unravels.htm

Let's review this one more time. On May 15, 1978, the House Select Committee on Assassinations chief counsel Robert Blakey wrote to the Social Security Administration requesting "access to all files and documents concerning or referring to Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald." On July 28, Social Security Administration associate commissioner Robert P. Bynum formally responded. In a three-page cover letter to Ms. Jackie Hess, an HSCA employee, Bynum cited 36 different documents that were being forwarded from the Social Security Administration to the HSCA. Item 23 in the letter from the Social Security Administration to the HSCA states: "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report re employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps." Why didn't the Social Security Administration include any of Oswald's income from his first four employers in his lifetime earnings report? And why on earth was the Warren Report offered as an explanation? The answer isn't all that complicated. It's right here: http://harveyandlee.net/Unraveling/Unravels.htm

All these little boy tantrums are because he was unable to address ridiculous issue of them looking identical. Will you address that Jim?? You've been asked enough now. Certainly, Bernie. They looked similar enough to fool some casual observers, but they were hardly identical. You guys should all contact Social Security to get the latest excuse for this stuff.