Jim Hargrove

On 10/2/2019 at 4:15 PM, Ken Martinson said:

1. So, try to paint a whole scenario for me. Robert O., the patriot, knew something odd was going on, but was dealing with sparse information. He was not close to his real mother for over 10 years. And then he was told that she was on some "special mission" to Grenada or some far off place, and got malaria and died. It all seemed plausible. And he knew that Lee and this Hungarian Russian-speaking guy were up to some covert activity, for the good of the country. He wasn't close to Lee either. And then Lee had gone undercover for a time for things to "blow over", and then he died of malaria too.

And the message to him was: Don't ask too many questions and everything will be fine with you.

Ken,

Do you have evidence about any of the hypothetical situations you describe above?  Rather than just speculating about everything, let me give you an example of what real evidence shows about “Oswald’s” immediate family.  From the Warren Commission Report

Oswald was obligated to serve on active duty until December 7,
1959 (the date having been adjusted to compensate for the period of
confinement).451 On August 17, he submitted a request for a depend-
ency discharge, on the ground that his mother needed his support.452
The request was accompanied by an affidavit of Mrs. Oswald and cor-
roborating affidavits from an attorney, a doctor, and two friends,
attesting that she had been injured at work in December 1958, and
was unable to support herself.453 [WCR, p. 688]

The above indicates that “Marguerite” was unemployed from December 1958 until at least Aug. 17, 1959.  In fact, other WC documents indicate she was unemployed the entire year of 1959.  This is an important period, because it was the time the Russian-speaking Oswald was officially released from his so-called service in the USMC enabling his false defection to the Soviet Union.

And yet, according to both Robert Oswald and John Pic, they visited their mother (the real Marguerite) in April 1959 and around Halloween 1958, while she was working at Cox’s Department Store in Fort Worth.  Robert said she worked at Cox’s from the fall of 1958 until at least the time of his visit with her around April 1959.

Robert Oswald’s testimony:

Mr. JENNER. In the month of April '59?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately that date.
Mr. JENNER. And did you visit her, or did she visit you?
Mr. OSWALD. I saw her at her place of employment.
Mr. JENNER. And how did that come about?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I recited some possibilities--that she called you and asked you to come to see her, that you desired to inquire of her, see if she was all right, or was it that you just happened to be in the downtown Fort Worth area, and you stopped by to see her, knowing where she was employed?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe the latter would possibly be more accurate.
Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection at the moment?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. She was not employed at that time at the downtown area of Fort Worth, but rather at a suburb store, Cox's Department Store.
Mr. JENNER. This is a shoe store?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, this is just a large department store, from wearing apparel to toys, a full line store.

John Pic’s testimony:

Mr. JENNER. This is the first time you had seen your brother Robert, I take
it, since his visit to New York City, is that correct?
Mr. PIC. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that was a cordial reunion, was it?
Mr. PIC. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Was your mother working at that time?
Mr. PIC. She was working, sir, when we arrived there, at Cox, I believe, Department Store at the candy counter, I believe it was Cox, I know she was working at a candy counter.

According to the FBI/WC, “Marguerite” was unemployed when Robert visited his real mother at Cox’s Dept. Store, and, again according to the WC, "Marguerite" was working at the King Candy Counter at the Fair Ridglea Department Store when Mr. Pic testified he visited his mother, just as Robert had testified, at Cox’s.

It’s a small point, perhaps, but it is thousands of little details such as this that need to be understood to be able to comprehend the Oswald Project.  Robert Oswald knew all about it and, after it became entangled in the JFK assassination, must have been persuaded to keep silent about it with a “sources and methods” argument from U.S. intel.  John Pic refused to talk to almost anyone, including John Armstrong, after the assassination.  I think he suspected something, but may not have known what to make of it all.  It’s interesting that he told the Warren Commission that several clear pictures of “Oswald” did not appear to be of his brother.

I'd like to add that, for nearly three and half years prior to the assassination of JFK, Hoover was quite aware of the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald was being impersonated.  Read the last paragraph of the document below.

This is the reason Hoover, within hours of the assassination, dispatched agents in NYC, New Orleans, and Texas to confiscate all the original school records and early employment records for Oswald.

The exhumation photos clearly show that the Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald had all of his teeth, at least those that would be visible in a photograph. All the Oswald photos that seem to show a missing tooth or teeth are of American-born Lee Oswald, at least according to John A’s analysis of the known facts about the two biographies.  It should be noted, though, that the photographic evidence is probably just as compromised as so much other evidence is in this case.

14 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

My problem with Julia Postal is that she let Oswald waltz right in where they kept the money, and didn't do anything to stop him.

Mr. BALL. When you say worked in the box office, is that take tickets?
Mrs. POSTAL. Sell tickets.

Mrs. POSTAL. I was listening to KLIF, and I was down in the little box office,

Mrs. POSTAL. This man, yes; he ducked into the box office and----I don't know if you are familiar with the theatre.
Mr. BALL. Yes; I have seen the theatre.
Mrs. POSTAL. You have? Well, he was coming from east going west. In other words, he ducked right in.

*smile*

Steve Thomas

<LAUGH!>  But she must have meant to describe something a little different, eh?

2 hours ago, Ken Martinson said:

Why not start a GoFundMe campaign to get saliva from these two families.

Ken,

You'd have to make far less noise to have any chance of success.  

John,

That document is a hoax.

Rick,

Absolutely!  Sandy started with evidence that John A. discovered in the late 1990s and kept expanding on it.  I believe he (Sandy) was the first researcher to make note of the “FAILED” prosthesis notation on the USMC records.  Thank you for providing the link to his posts. Here ‘tis again:

Sandy Larsen’s Study of “Oswald” Dental Records

Here is the evidence John and I have been presenting for years that started Sandy on his quest:

In the fall of 1954, LEE Oswald was in the 9th grade at Beauregard JHS, where he became friends with a kid named Ed Voebel after Voebel witnessed him in a protracted fight with the Neumeyer brothers, Johnny and Mike.  Voebel and a couple of other kids attempted to patch Lee up.  This was in November. Voebel told the Warren Commission that Oswald lost a tooth in the fight.

Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.

Soon after the fight, Voebel took a famous photograph of Oswald that he eventually sold to LIFE magazine after the assassination.  It appears to show LEE Oswald with a missing tooth.

About a half century later, after one of a number of meetings John Armstrong had with Marina (Oswald) Porter, she handed him all the original photos of the 1981 exhumation.  Here is one of them.

As you can see, there is no missing front tooth.

From this starting point, Sandy Larsen developed substantially more evidence.  John Butler also discovered recently that the 1955 Civil Air Patrol photo (which also depicts David Ferrie) seems to show American-born LEE Oswald with a missing tooth that is clearly present in the exhumation photo.

I personally have the Feb. 21, 1964 edition of LIFE magazine which contains the big halftone reproduction of Voebel's photo that fills up all of page 70 and extends onto page 71. The images above (except Marina's exhumation graphic) were from my scanner, or processed from a scans I made, and I did my best to make the most accurate reproductions possible.

Thanks again, Rick!

I meant to add that in her DPD Affidavit, Mrs. Postal indicated that "Oswald" did NOT buy a ticket.  If you put together her affidavit, FBI report, and testimony, there are all kinds of issues, at least as I recall.  Going through this stuff,  and thinking of a 1:05 Oswald and a 1:35 Oswald arriving at the theater, it gets interesting.

Cory,

The problem with trying to use Mrs. Postal to impeach Mr. Burroughs is that she appears to have been remarkably inconsistent about the central issue of what she observed when she told the FBI that “she was unable to recall whether or not he bought a ticket....”

Now, in this case at least, I don’t trust the FBI as far as I can throw its headquarters building, but I can fathom no reason for SA Carter or any other FBI employee to have altered her statement, can you?

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

I haven't followed this thread very well.  My mind rebels when I try to read your opponent's postings.  They lack creditability when compared to the records you are posting.  And, they use to many propaganda techniques.

I think debating these fellows is a waste of time.

Thanks, John.  I love it when those guys attack me because it provides yet another opportunity to post more evidence.  I hope they keep trying!  

And, to continue Paul's point, the very next day Deputy Attorney General Katzenbach wrote the infamous memo that called for a cover-up... I mean a determination of "Oswald's" lone guilt.. before the Warren Commission was even organized.

An easier to read reproduction of the above document can be seen at this address:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62268#relPageId=29&tab=page

11 hours ago, Ken Martinson said:

One of the problems with the Harvey & Lee theory is that fact that many other people connect to their lives.

1. Their mothers. If H&L is true, then one of the mothers was murdered, and her history erased.

2. Family and Friends. If H&L is true, then the family, friends and neighbors of these boys would have all known these two boys, and classmates and parents of kids in his classes would all remember them. Did this happen for both boys?

The Russian-speaking Oswald had no one to care for him, just an estranged wife who couldn’t wait to get away from him and two daughters too young to help.  On the other hand, the American-born Oswald had a brother, a half-brother, and a real mother, (the real “Marguerite”did seem to disappear).  There was certainly too much light on “Lee Harvey Oswald” to risk killing his immediate family members.

In a memo to Lou Ivon, Jim Garrison wrote this about Classic Oswald’s® brother: "If you really want to know what I think, it is that Robert Oswald knew this returning defector was not really Lee and this is what Robert's problem was the night of the assassination when he found it necessary to take such a long drive to think things out. He knew things were far more complicated than they appeared on the surface."

Robert Oswald, probably for entirely patriotic reasons, was an integral part of the original “Oswald project,” which had been going on for at least a decade but only became entangled in the plot to kill JFK in 1963.  Half-brother John Pic told the Warren Commission that he didn’t recognize his own brother from several clear pictures of Classic Oswald.

The woman who testified as “Marguerite Oswald” was an impostor, a caretaker for the young Russian-speaking man who eventually was known to the world as “Lee Harvey Oswald.” She knew so little about her “son” that she had to be given notes during her testimony to remind her of basic biographical details about him.

Marguerite told a NYC probation officer that she was the youngest of 6 children, yet there were 5 children in the Claverie family. She gave Lee Oswald's father's name as Robert Lee Harvey, when his real name was Robert Edward Lee Oswald. She said Lee's father died at age 45, yet we know he was 41 years old when he died. She gave her marriage date as July 19, 1929, yet she married Robert Oswald in 1933. She gave her sister's name as Lillian Sigouerette, when we know her sister's name was Lillian Murrett. She said she formerly owned a house in Corning, Texas, yet there is not and never has been a "Corning," Texas. She gave Lee Harvey Oswald's birth date as October 19 when the correct date was October 18th. She said Lee was baptized at the Trinity Lutheran Church in New Orleans, when the records show he was baptized at the Redeemer Lutheran Church in New Orleans. When she was asked by the Warren Commission whether Lee's father was right or left handed she replied, "I do not remember, sir."

Cory,

The interview was the day after the assassination.  There are many references to it.  See, for example, Bill Simpich’s State Secret, chapter 6.  (It’s a lengthy online page comprising the entire chapter, but just search for “Harris” and the first hit is it.)

Or see The Fourth Decade, v4, #5, p. 6.

John A. described it this way on one of our website pages:

Jones Harris, a long time assassination investigator, arrived in Dallas the day after the assassination. Harris interviewed Julia Postal in the office of the manager of the Texas Theater. Harris asked Postal if she sold a ticket to the man arrested in the theater by the Dallas Police. Postal immediately burst into tears. Harris walked out of the office and returned a short time later. When Harris asked Postal again if she sold (HARVEY) Oswald a ticket she again burst into tears. Harris was convinced that Postal knew that she sold Harvey Oswald a ticket to the theater. Butch Burroughs told Texas researcher Jim Marrs that Postal knows that she sold (HARVEY) Oswald a ticket.

Mr. Harris told others that he had talked to Ms. Postal for a while before asking her the question about selling a ticket, and so it seemed to be specifically that issue that brought her to tears, twice.

On 9/26/2019 at 6:30 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Mr. Parnell has claimed time and time and time again that someone, somewhere, has debunked Harvey and Lee, but he never dares to do it right here. 

Mr. Payette, at least, is trying, and I thank him for the opportunity to debate it fully.

On 9/27/2019 at 8:31 AM, Lance Payette said:

I'm going to stop beating my head against the H&L wall as well.  It's truly like debating with the most extreme form of religious fundamentalist - and I have a great deal of frustrating experience with that.  These folks need H&L for some reason. 

The space below is left blank to provide room for Mr. Payette, or anyone else, to explain how, during fall semester of the 1953/1954 school year,  one Oswald attended Public School 44 in NYC for 62 full days and 5 half days, was absent 3 full days and 8 half days, for a total accounting of 78 days, while in the very same semester, the other Oswald attended Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans for 89 days, and was absent one day.

Here’s some more space for Mr. Payette, or anyone else, to explain what happened to Oswald’s records from Stripling School.

Or perhaps someone can explain why Oswald’s employment prior to his service in the U.S. Marine Corps was not recognized by the Social Security Administration.

Or maybe someone—anyone—will tell us how one Oswald was stationed in Ping-Tung, Taiwan at the same time another was being treated for venereal disease near Atsugi, Japan. (According to Google, the two locations are 2,316 km apart.)

Or, let’s keep it simple.  Could Oswald drive a car?  Did he have a Texas driver’s license? 

Since Mr. Payette so often psychoanalyzes people who he thinks suffer from what he surely considers to be H&L derangement syndrome, perhaps he can show, citing a few examples above, why he people who understand and believe the Harvey and Lee analysis are so wrong.

Cory,

Julia Postal may be hiding something.  Early researcher Jones Harris interviewed her in the office of the manager of the Texas Theater. Harris asked Postal if she sold a ticket to the man arrested in the theater by the Dallas Police. Postal immediately burst into tears. Harris walked out of the office and returned a short time later. When Harris asked Postal again if she sold Oswald a ticket she again burst into tears.

I think the Oswald killed by Jack Ruby arrived at the theater right around 1 pm or a couple of minutes later.  He bought a ticket and Julia Postal may have realized it.  The second Oswald, Tippit's killer, arrived as late as 1:40 pm and didn't buy a ticket simply to attract attention and lead the police to the theater.

On 8/27/2019 at 10:26 PM, Ron Bulman said:

There's a lot of good information, that should be pursued, on a few others here, e.g. Beckham and Brewer.  But reviewing the thread I thought of the topic, Two Oswald's in the Texas Theater and wondered about what I'd learned.  Please correct me but I think the following can now be said.

1.  Between 1:00 and 1:07 concessionaire Butch Burroughs is convinced someone came in the theater front doors but not on through the doors into his concession area behind the floor/orchestra seats.  He was never fully questioned about how he concluded such, (heard them shut?) but he seemed convinced of this, repeating it over time.  If he is correct such person would have to go up the stairs he also couldn't see to the balcony.  No other choice.

2.  During opening credits for the movie, after the advertisements for coming attractions and popcorn, customer Jack Davis has a stranger sit down beside him in the 900 seat theater with about 20 people in it.  After a minute the stranger gets up and goes and sits by another of the few patrons.  Then another.  Then he gets up and goes out to the concession area behind them. 

3.  Butch Burroughs sells popcorn to a man at 1:15 he later sees arrested and taken out the front door of the theater.  He later learns this man is named Oswald.  The Warren Omission claims Tippit was shot at 1:15 (it was earlier, closer to 1:05).

4.  Burroughs sees the man go back into the floor seats and sit by a pregnant woman.  The woman gets up and heads toward the bathrooms.

5.  Davis is "fairly certain(?)" he sees the man who sat by him earlier and went to the concession area come back in down the opposite aisle from the one close to him and sit down by another of the few customers.  

6.  Around 1:35  three doors down from the Texas Theater shoe store manager Johnny Brewer sees someone suspicious at the front of his store.  He follows him to the Texas Theater, but doesn't see him go in, yet tells ticket seller Julia Postal in the booth separate from but in front of the frond doors to call the police.

7.  Per author Leo Sauvage to author John Armstrong the Dallas Police Department receives up to a half dozen anonymous calls advising of a suspicious man entering the Texas Theater.  But the dispatch tapes for this period disappear.

8.  DPD dispatch does say at 1:46 a suspect is hiding in the balcony of the Texas Theater.

9.  Live (on tape) from the scene of the Tippit murder reporter Reiland says police were taking off because of a report of a man with a shotgun going into a local theater.

10.  Deputy Sheriff Bill Courson wrote "I started up the stairs to the balcony because that' where the call said he was hiding."

11.  Lt. Cunningham said the lady cashier said there's a young man upstairs, he just went up there.

12. Officer Paul Bentley's report says he as told by detective Toney the suspect is in the balcony.

13.  Oswald is arrested on the first floor, taken out the front door. Witnessed by Burroughs, Davis and others.

14.  3-4 minutes after this Burroughs sees a man who looked like he could have been Oswald's brother taken out the back door.

15.  Hobby shop (next to the shoe store managed by Brewer) owner Bernard Haire sees police bring a man out the back door of the Texas Theater, put him in a police car and drive him off.

16.  Tippit's autopsy report states the suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater.

17.  DPD officer Stringfellow, the day After the assassination and arrest, stated in writing and signed to his superior, Oswald was arrested in the balcony.

Ron Bulman, who originated this thread, had a nice summary back in August.

On 7/22/2019 at 7:11 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

That doesn't match at all what Butch Burroughs and Bernard Haire witnessed.  From James Douglass's JFK and the Unspeakable:

Butch Burroughs, who witnessed Oswald’s arrest, startled me in his interview by saying he saw a second arrest occur in the Texas Theater only “three or four minutes later.”[444] He said the Dallas Police then arrested “an Oswald lookalike.” Burroughs said the second man “looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something.”[445] When I questioned the comparison by asking, “Could you see the second man as well as you could see Oswald?” he said, “Yes, I could see both of them. They looked alike.”[446] After the officers half-carried and half-dragged Oswald to the police car in front of the theater, within a space of three or four minutes, Burroughs saw the second Oswald placed under arrest and handcuffed. The Oswald look-alike, however, was taken by police not out the front but out the back of the theater.[447]

What happened next we can learn from another neglected witness, Bernard Haire.[448]

Bernard J. Haire was the owner of Bernie’s Hobby House, just two doors east of the Texas Theater. Haire went outside his store when he saw police cars congregating in front of the theater.[449] When he couldn’t see what was happening because of the crowd, he went back through his store into the alley out back. It, too, was full of police cars, but there were fewer spectators. Haire walked up the alley. When he stopped opposite the rear door of the theater, he witnessed what he would think for decades was the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald.

“Police brought a young white man out,” Haire told an interviewer. “The man was dressed in a pullover shirt and slacks. He seemed to be flushed, as if he’d been in a struggle. Police put the man in a police car and drove off.”[450]

When Haire was told in 1987 that Lee Harvey Oswald had been brought out the front of the theater by police, he was shocked.

“I don’t know who I saw arrested,” he said in bewilderment.[451]

Butch Burroughs and Bernard Haire are complementary witnesses. From their perspectives both inside and outside the Texas Theater, they saw an Oswald double arrested and taken to a police car in the back alley only minutes after the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald. Burroughs’s and Haire’s independent, converging testimonies provide critical insight into the mechanics of the plot. In a comprehensive intelligence scenario for Kennedy’s and Tippit’s murders, the plan culminated in Oswald’s Friday arrest and Sunday murder (probably a fallback from his being set up to be killed in the Texas Theater by the police).

There is a hint of the second Oswald’s arrest in the Dallas police records. According to the Dallas Police Department’s official Homicide Report on J. D. Tippit, “Suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas theatre at 231 W. Jefferson.”[452]

Dallas Police detective L. D. Stringfellow also reported to Captain W. P. Gannaway, “Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater.”[453]

NOTES:

444. Author’s interview of Burroughs, July 16, 2007. Butch Burroughs is a man of few words. When asked a question, he answers exactly what he is asked. Burroughs told me no one had ever asked him before about a second arrest in the Texas Theater. In response to my question, “Now you didn’t see anybody else [besides Oswald] get arrested that day, did you?” he answered, “Yes, there was a lookalike—an Oswald lookalike.” In response to further questions, he described the second arrest, that of the “Oswald lookalike.” Ibid. Because Butch Burroughs saw neither Oswald nor his lookalike enter the Texas Theater, each must have gone directly up the balcony stairs on entering. Oswald crossed the balcony and came down the stairs on the far side of the lobby. There he entered the orchestra seats and began his seat-hopping, in apparent search of a contact. His lookalike sneaked into the theater at 1:45 P.M. and, like Oswald, went immediately up the balcony stairs. By the time Burroughs witnessed the Oswald double’s arrest, he had also come down the balcony stairs on the far side of the lobby, either on his own or already accompanied by police who had been checking the balcony. 

445. §
Ibid. 

446. §
Ibid. 

447. §
Ibid. 

448. §
In the data base of the JFK Records Act at the National Archives, there is no record of Bernard Haire. Archivist Martin F. McGann to James Douglass, July 20, 2007. 

449. §
In a photo taken about 1:50 P.M., November 22, 1963, that shows people gathering around the police cars in front of the Texas Theater, Bernard Haire can be seen at the edge of the crowd, leaning on a parking meter and trying to see. Photo by Stuart L. Reed; on p. 68, Myers, With Malice. 

450. §
Bernard J. Haire interview by Jim Marrs, summer 1987. Crossfire, p. 354. 

451. §
Ibid. 

452. §
Dallas Police Department Homicide Report on J. D. Tippit, November 22, 1963. Reproduced in With Malice, p. 447 (emphasis added). 

453. §
Letter from Detective L. D. Stringfellow to Captain W. P. Gannaway, November 23, 1963, Dallas City Archives. Cited in Harvey & Lee, p. 871 (emphasis added). 
 

Isn't it amazing how two H&L critics declare victory and then write on and on and on about how wrong we are about the arrest of two Oswalds in the Texas Theater?  Mr. Haire tells us that the second Oswald appeared to have been in a struggle when he saw him.  Mr. Burroughs saw the second Oswald in handcuffs.  Yet Mr. B wants us to believe that handcuffed man was a mere witness.

They go on and on about where the second Oswald was actually arrested, in the balcony or downstairs, as if that made any freakin' difference!  My guess is that it was a balcony arrest simply because two Dallas Police reports said so.  But it really doesn't matter in the least.  

There is a trainload of evidence for two Oswalds, who on assassination day had two different wallets, who entered the theater at different times, with one impersonating and setting up the other in the weeks prior to the hit.  No matter how many long-winded posts they make, the evidence does not go away.

On 9/25/2019 at 6:08 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Now that we know that Mr. Payette based his lengthy psychoanalysis of conspiracy believers in general and people who understand and believe in Harvey and Lee in particular on the faulty assumption that “the H&L version of the Bolton Ford incident is based almost entirely on the recollections of Sewell in 1967,” let’s see if we can really figure out what really happened. 

Here’s the basic story, as John A. described it:

On January 20, 1961, while Harvey Oswald was in Minsk, two men visited the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans. They spoke with Assistant Manager Oscar Deslatte and said they were interested in purchasing 10 Ford Econoline Trucks. As one of the men discussed the purchase with Deslatte the other man, who identified himself as Joseph Moore, made a list of the equipment they desired on the trucks.

Deslatte went to his boss, truck manager Fred Sewell, and told him about the two men who wanted to purchase trucks and said they represented the "Free Democrats of Cuba or some such organization." Sewell told Deslatte to give the men a bid of $75 over their cost for the trucks. Deslatte and Sewell returned to Deslatte's desk and wrote out a bid form to Joseph Moore. As Deslatte was filling out the bid form, Joseph Moore and the other man began talking to both Deslatte and Sewell.42

When Moore saw that Deslatte had written his name on the bid form he asked that the name be changed to "Friends of Democratic Cuba." Moore's friend looked· at the form and said, "By the way, you'd better put my name down there because I'm the man handling the money." When Deslatte asked, "What's your name?" the man replied, "Lee Oswald.”

Deslatte gave the original bid form to "Lee Oswald" and kept a copy for his files, which he gave to the FBI following the assassination.

Note that on the bid form “Friends of Democratic Cuba” is written in near the top left, and the date, Jan. 20, 1961, is written near the top right and, under that, “Oswald.”  Mr. Payette wants us to believe that there is nothing significant to the fact that the officers and directors of the Friends of Democratic Cuba, Inc. included W. Guy Banister, who worked with “Oswald” in New Orleans in the summer of 1963, and former “Oswald” employer Gerard Tugague.

On Dec. 19, 1963, the SAC in New Orleans sent an Airtel directly to J. Edgar Hoover himself informing him that Bolton Ford’s assistance manager Oscar Deslatte was telling others that he “had been contacted by Oswald and Oswald said he was trying to get trucks for Cuba.”   

Hoover went on to order the fabrication of a pre-dated a document designed to discredit at least parts of the story, including a false claim that Deslatte was unable to identify a picture of Oswald.

 

We are supposed to believe this report was issued on 11/25/63, just three days after the assassination, when, in fact, Hoover wasn’t even informed of the Bolton Ford charges until 12/19/63 Airtel three weeks later.  (If you don’t believe the FBI would fabricate information, just take a look at this three minute video on YouTube in which Mark Lane and Gil Jesus show how the FBI dramatically altered the statements of three crucial Dealey Plaza witnesses.)

PROOF THE FBI LIED

Is there more evidence that the FBI report lied  specifically about Deslatte being shown a picture of Oswald?  Sure there is.  On May 2, 1967, James Alcock and Jim Garrison interviewed Fred Sewell, Oscar Deslatte’s boss at Bolton Ford.  (Mr. Payette wants us to believe Mr. Sewell invented the whole Bolton Ford incident during this interview, as if none of the above had happened.)

During that interview, Mr. Sewell described how he and Mr. Deslatte decided to call the FBI, what the FBI did, and added that the FBI agents “didn’t show us no pictures.  They didn’t do anything but take that paper and they offered us a receipt.”

What’s kind of creepy about all this is that H&L critics want us to believe that Fred Sewell, who at the time as living at 6520 Ithaca Street in Metairie, LA, and at the time of the interview with James Alcock was employed by Stevens Chevrolet in New Orleans, was making all this up!  It’s creepy because the one organization that we KNOW lied about assassination witnesses was the FBI.

Once again, here’s the  three minute video on YouTube in which Mark Lane and Gil Jesus show how the FBI dramatically altered the statements of three crucial Dealey Plaza witnesses:

PROOF THE FBI LIED

Mr. Sewell freely provided this information to the Assistant D.A. of New Orleans.   During his interview, he explained that the FBI lied about showing a photograph to him and his assistant Oscar Deslatte.  What a surprise!

Also recalling that one Oswald was vehicle shopping in New Orleans while another was in the Soviet Union was James Spencer, who worked at Dumas Milner Chevrolet in the city.  Although Milner didn’t recall exactly when Oswald on two occasions visited dealership, he only worked there from February to August 1961, when the other Oswald was in the Soviet Union.

Spencer recalled that Oswald was interested in purchasing a 1958 Chevrolet. When Oswald returned for the second time Spencer took him across the street to the Walgreen Drug Store for coffee. Spencer remembered the young man talked a lot about Cuba and Castro.

When they finished having coffee Spencer wrote the young man's name, "Oswald," on the back of one of his business cards. After the assassination Spencer was interviewed by the FBI, and said he had no doubt that the individual he met in 1961 was "Lee Harvey Oswald."  

Thanks, Paul.  Despite the usual false claims that someone somewhere else has explained all this, it is quite obvious that no one here can explain the conflicting school records showing that:

For the 8th Grade fall semester of the 1953/1954 school year,  one Oswald attended Public School 44 in New York City for 62 full days and 5 half days, was absent 3 full days and 8 half days, for a total attendance of 78 days. In the very same semester, the other Oswald attended Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans for 89 days, and was absent one day.

No one has ever explained it.  I await, as always, an explanation from an H&L critic or anyone else.  In the meantime, as promised let me get back to the Bolton Ford incident.  In my next post, I'll show where I think we stand.

5 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Good post Lance.

I have grown tired of playing the game with the H&L people. As I get older, I become more and more careful about what I spend time on. As you point out, these topics have been argued over and over. I guess the H&L people need the attention or something so they try and stir up a hornet's nest using the same tired arguments. They used to ask for explanations and myself or Greg Parker would provide links. They then insisted the linked websites did not exist. I have a partial LHO chronology and could provide a timeline for Japan, for example. But I already did  that at one point, so I am not going to do it again. I am too busy for their nonsense. The arguments and counter-arguments are out there, let those interested run a search and decide for themselves.

Mr. Parnell has claimed time and time and time again that someone, somewhere, has debunked Harvey and Lee, but he never dares to do it right here. 

Mr. Payette, at least, is trying, and I thank him for the opportunity to debate it fully.  I'll get back to the Bolton Ford Incident asap.

Mr. Payette is clearly unable to explain the conflicting school records we have already presented, and so he changes the subject by demanding we do some homework and gather more school documents.  Although Mr. Armstrong has placed on YouTube numerous interviews with teachers and students who attended school with “Lee Harvey Oswald,” Mr. Payette clearly doesn’t understand that there are simply no verifiable, original school records for “Lee Harvey Oswald” at all.

Since he brought the subject up, perhaps Mr. Payette can explain to us why he is unconcerned that, within hours of the assassination, the school and early work records for “Lee Harvey Oswald” were confiscated by the FBI and promptly lost, replaced by b&w photocopies.  The confiscation of documents was usually done before there was even time to determine if their were other co-conspirators or if other government officials were targeted for assassination.

As ARRB staffer Joe Freeman discovered, “all the school and employment records I looked at in the Warren Commission Exhibit files at Archives II were copies, not originals.”

No doubt Mr. Payette has not the slightest interest about why the originals of all these original school records disappeared. Will he tell us that U.S. courts are as receptive to copies of documents as they are to originals? My suggestion is the originals disappeared because it is much easier to alter b&w copies than originals.  Would a judge not agree with me?

To borrow the phrase that Mr. Payette says he borrowed, “this makes sense because” two boys were sharing one identity, so that a Russian-speaking youth could adopt the identity of an American-born boy and travel to the Soviet Union on behalf of American Intel, where he would secretly understand the Russian language.  It was necessary for the impostor to have a life as similar as possible to the American he was mimicking.

What if, for example, a Soviet official questioned the Russian-speaking youth and asked a simple question, such as, “Say, Comrade, thees Beau-Re-Gard School you go to.  Where you eat lunch?  Basement? First floor?  Second floor?  Third?”   Real life experiences would have been the best way to ready a VERY young spy for these kinds of interrogations.

Since Mr. Payette clearly can’t explain the conflicting records we’ve already shown here, let’s go back to those disappearing originals.  Here, for just one example, is John’s description of what happened to the New York City school records for “Lee Harvey Oswald.”  Documents are below the book excerpt.  (I’m not going to bother to clean up the OCR scan errors):

After realizing the court and school records contained numerous contradictions,
I began assembling and sorting through all of the New York records I could find. The
Warren Commission published a complete set of Oswald's elementary school records
from Fort Worth, including grade cards, enrollment forms, cumulative records, atten­-
dance records, and interviews with many students, neighbors, and teachers. The War­-
ren Commission also published numerous photographs of Oswald in grade school as well
as a class photograph.

As I searched the Warren Volumes looking for New York records and photo­-
graphs I was surprised to find that there were no grade cards, no enrollment forms, and
no transcripts from his previous school in Ft Worth (Ridglea West Elementary). I noticed
there were conflicting attendance records, no school photographs, no interviews of
Oswald's classmates, and only one interview of a teacher.

When I visited the National Archives in Adelphi, Maryland, I learned, as did the
Assassination Records Review Board in 1995, that there were no original school records
whatsoever-only copies of records. When original records disappear, and only copies re­-
main, there is a distinct possibility that the original records were altered and then de­-
stroyed. I decided to see if I could determine what happened to Oswald's original New
York school records.

The WC requested Oswald's original New York school records

As I began sorting through New York school and court records, I realized that
the Warren Commission may also have been aware of conflicting records. They asked
the FBI to obtain Oswald's original school and court records, but the Bureau did not
comply. The Commission then wrote to New York Mayor Robert Wagner and asked his
office for help in .obtaining Oswald's original school records.

Mayor Wagner's office responded to the Commission's request by enclosing
copies of Oswald's New York school records and advising that the original court records
had been turned over to SA John Malone personally by Judge Florence Kelley.
53-09

It appeared the original records disappeared while in SA Malone's custody, so I decided
to place all available documentation and correspondence in chronological order to see
if my thoughts were correct.

Oswald's school records disappeared while in FBI custody
Judge Florence Kelley was the Administrative Judge of the Family Court of the
State of New York in 1963, and the Oswald case file (#23979) was under her supervision.
After the assassination she conferred with superior court judges and together they de­-
cided the Oswald file would be given to the Special Agent in charge of the FBI's New
York office, John Malone.

On November 27, 1963 Judge Kelley allowed SAIC Malone to review the
Oswald file in her chambers and in her presence. She permitted him to take notes of
pertinent portions, but would not permit the file to be removed from her office or cop­-
ied. A few days later she conferred with the Presiding Justice of the Appellate Division,
Bernard Botein, and with his approval agreed to turn over all original court records in
possession of the Family Court to SAIC Malone.

On December 2, 1963 Judge Kelley personally gave the Oswald file to Malone
with the condition that it be transmitted immediately to the Warren Commission. Three
days later, on December 5, 1963, FBI SA Michael O'Rourke advised the Secret Service
the file had been sent to the WaTTen Commission. On December 10, eight days after Judge
Kelley turned her court file over to the FBI, an internal FBI memo relating to the Files
of Domestic Relations Court states, "rec'd by Assist Dir. John Malone 11/27-12/2." From
this memo and Judge Kelley's statement, it is clear that Judge Kelley gave the original
court file to SAIC Malone.

In preparation for the testimony of Marguerite Oswald in February 1964, the
Warren Commission requested Oswald's original New York school and court records
from Mayor Wagner of New York City. On February 4, Miss Bernice McCrae of the
Mayors office spoke with Judge Kelley, who advised that she had given the original
records to SAIC John Malone.

Miss McCrae then telephoned the FBI's New York Office. She asked if the
original records in the Oswald file had, in fact, been turned over to the Warren Commis­-
sion. Miss McCrae never received an answer. Later that afternoon she wrote a letter on
behalf of Mayor Wagner to Mr. Rankin of Warren Commission which stated, "I am at­-
taching to this letter copies of the school records .... Judge Florence Kelley informed me
she turned over all original records in the possession of the Family Court dealing with
the case of Lee Harvey Oswald to John F. Malone, Assistant Director in Charge of the
New York City office of the FBI."42 There is no evidence or documentation whatsoever that
Malone turned the original court file over to the Warren Commission.

On February 7, at 3:37 pm, FBI Inspector J. R. Malley telephoned the FBI's
New York office and spoke to the Assistant Special Agent in Charge, W. M. Alexander,
about the original court records. Malley advised that FBI headquarters in Washington
had no information that indicated the original documents had been received from New
York and he asked Alexander to check further.

At 3:45 pm Alexander telephoned Malley and advised that SAIC Malone. his
supervisor. had photographed the entire file and that copies of the file had been sent to
FBI headquarters in Washington. Alexander said there was no record that photographs
were sent to FBI headquarters, but that additional photographs of the file were available.
Malley then asked that two copies of the photographs be sent immediately to his atten­-
tion at FBI Headquarters in Washington.

There is no indication that Inspector Malley made any additional inquiries into
the fate of the original court files, which were last seen by Judge Kelley when she per­-
sonally handed them to SAIC John Malone. Whenever original records are destroyed and only
copies or photographs remain, it is probable that the original documents were altered and then
photocopied. [Harvey and Lee, pp. 62-63]

Here are some of the documents John studied to do the write-up above.

One Oswald had excellent attendance in the NYC schools; the other was so often truant that the whole operation was nearly exposed by the NYC court system.  The Russian-speaking kid and his caretaker “mother” fled to New Orleans shortly before a NYC court appearance was scheduled, where he was gradually re-introduced to the public school system as a part-time student. 

For the 8th Grade fall semester of the 1953/1954 school year,  one Oswald attended Public School for 62 full days and 5 half days, was absent 3 full days and 8 half days, for a total attendance of 78 days.
In the very same semester, the other Oswald attended Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans for 89 days, and was absent one day.

Here, once more, are those records.  Will Mr. Payette explain them this time?  Or will he change the subject yet again?

The very next semester, one Oswald was at Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while the other attended Stripling School in Texas.  I’ve already presented the considerable evidence for that, and Mr. Payette has already decided to just say these records are too difficult to understand, and then change the subject.

The Stripling School records also disappeared, but for them, not even b&w photocopies were produced as replacements.  Why?  Because from the other records there is simply no time for any Oswald to have attended Stripling. 

Stripling assistant principal Frank Kudlaty in 1963 met FBI agent at the school and gave them “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” Stripling records.  His YouTube interview is here.

On two separate occasions,  Robert Oswald told a Fort Worth newspaper that his brother attended Stripling.  See one of the articles here.

Robert also testified to the Warren Commission that his “brother” attended Stripling.

Harvey Oswald’s classmate Fran Schubert said she attended Stripling with Oswald and watched him walk home from Stripling to his house at 2220 Thomas Place.  See her YouTube interview with John here.

In the 1990s, Stripling School principal Ricardo Galindo told John that it was “common knowledge” that “Lee Harvey Oswald” attended Stripling.

John also spoke to local student Bobby Pitts, who remembered that Oswald attended Stripling with his younger brother and that he (Bobby) remembered seeing (Harvey) Oswald standing on the porch at 2220 Thomas Place, directly across the street from Stripling.  John also spoke with former Stripling student Doug Gann, who attended ninth grade at Stripling with Harvey and remembered that he live “across the street from the basketball courts and one or two houses to the left,” which exactly describes 2220 Thomas Place, where “Marguerite Oswald” lived at the time of the assassination of JFK. 

John made audio recordings of the Stripling people mentioned above, and we'll be putting together something about them next summer.  In the meantime....

A Forth Worth Star-Telegram article from November 2017 would indicate that Oswald’s “teachers and classmates remember him at Stripling, though there is no official record.”  Read the article here.

That's true.  As I wrote on Sept. 7 of this year on the "Marita Lorenz Obituary" thread:

Quote

 

David.... about this, John A. wrote:

NOTE: According to Marita, CIA agent Frank Fiorini/Sturgis knew Lee Oswald ("Ozzie") in Florida and, after the assassination, tried repeatedly to link "Lee Harvey Oswald" with Castro. Fiorini/ Sturgis was definitely one of the conspirators.

Pressured by her attorney, and possibly threatened with charges of perjury, Marita Lorenz later recanted her testimony regarding the dates she saw Oswald in Florida. But what the HSCA still failed to understand was that Lee Harvey Oswald was never in Florida at any time from 1960-1963. [H&L p. 311]

But American-born Lee Harvey Oswald was.

 

In the last line of the post above, Mr. B. urges forum members to click a link to Greg Parker's site and read the latest about me there. Now,  I never go to Mr. Parker’s site, but I’m told by others that he seems to track just about all my posts and write bout how horrible they all are.  What a hoot!

Shortly before he was banned from this forum, Mr. Parker claimed that some image files I linked contained a virus.  I wanted to make sure the bogus claim wasn’t deleted later, and so I captured an image of it.  Here ‘tis:

It was easy to prove my files contained no viruses.  My webhost helped and at least one of the moderators here indicated that no one except Mr. Parker seemed to get a virus.

But it got me thinking that Mr. Parker clearly has viruses on his mind, and one of the reasons I don’t go to his site is just to be certain I don’t, uh, catch anything there.  There are various types of malware now that don’t even require browser clicks to propagate.

Mr. Parker’s endless attention to me is amusing, though.  Perhaps there just isn’t much to do down there in Aussie land.
 

Now that we know that Mr. Payette based his lengthy psychoanalysis of conspiracy believers in general and people who understand and believe in Harvey and Lee in particular on the faulty assumption that “the H&L version of the Bolton Ford incident is based almost entirely on the recollections of Sewell in 1967,” let’s see if we can really figure out what really happened. 

Here’s the basic story, as John A. described it:

On January 20, 1961, while Harvey Oswald was in Minsk, two men visited the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans. They spoke with Assistant Manager Oscar Deslatte and said they were interested in purchasing 10 Ford Econoline Trucks. As one of the men discussed the purchase with Deslatte the other man, who identified himself as Joseph Moore, made a list of the equipment they desired on the trucks.

Deslatte went to his boss, truck manager Fred Sewell, and told him about the two men who wanted to purchase trucks and said they represented the "Free Democrats of Cuba or some such organization." Sewell told Deslatte to give the men a bid of $75 over their cost for the trucks. Deslatte and Sewell returned to Deslatte's desk and wrote out a bid form to Joseph Moore. As Deslatte was filling out the bid form, Joseph Moore and the other man began talking to both Deslatte and Sewell.42

When Moore saw that Deslatte had written his name on the bid form he asked that the name be changed to "Friends of Democratic Cuba." Moore's friend looked· at the form and said, "By the way, you'd better put my name down there because I'm the man handling the money." When Deslatte asked, "What's your name?" the man replied, "Lee Oswald.”

Deslatte gave the original bid form to "Lee Oswald" and kept a copy for his files, which he gave to the FBI following the assassination.

Note that on the bid form “Friends of Democratic Cuba” is written in near the top left, and the date, Jan. 20, 1961, is written near the top right and, under that, “Oswald.”  Mr. Payette wants us to believe that there is nothing significant to the fact that the officers and directors of the Friends of Democratic Cuba, Inc. included W. Guy Banister, who worked with “Oswald” in New Orleans in the summer of 1963, and former “Oswald” employer Gerard Tugague.

On Dec. 19, 1963, the SAC in New Orleans sent an Airtel directly to J. Edgar Hoover himself informing him that Bolton Ford’s assistance manager Oscar Deslatte was telling others that he “had been contacted by Oswald and Oswald said he was trying to get trucks for Cuba.”   

Hoover went on to order the fabrication of a pre-dated a document designed to discredit at least parts of the story, including a false claim that Deslatte was unable to identify a picture of Oswald.

We are supposed to believe this report was issued on 11/25/63, just three days after the assassination, when, in fact, Hoover wasn’t even informed of the Bolton Ford charges until 12/19/63 Airtel three weeks later.  (If you don’t believe the FBI would fabricate information, just take a look at this three minute video on YouTube in which Mark Lane and Gil Jesus show how the FBI dramatically altered the statements of three crucial Dealey Plaza witnesses.)

PROOF THE FBI LIED

Is there more evidence that the FBI report lied  specifically about Deslatte being shown a picture of Oswald?  Sure there is.  On May 2, 1967, James Alcock and Jim Garrison interviewed Fred Sewell, Oscar Deslatte’s boss at Bolton Ford.  (Mr. Payette wants us to believe Mr. Sewell invented the whole Bolton Ford incident during this interview, as if none of the above had happened.)

During that interview, Mr. Sewell described how he and Mr. Deslatte decided to call the FBI, what the FBI did, and added that the FBI agents “didn’t show us no pictures.  They didn’t do anything but take that paper and they offered us a receipt.”