Jim Hargrove

2 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

6.  The H&L version of the Bolton Ford incident is based almost entirely on the recollections of Sewell in 1967.

That simply isn't true.

By Dec. 19, 1963, the SAC in New Orleans was already confirming directly to J. Edgar Hoover himself that a man named Charles Pearson, who was office manager at Graham Paper Company, had stated that his friend Oscar W. Deslatte, assistant manager of truck sales at Bolton Ford, had been contacted by Oswald about buying trucks.  Worse yet, the whole process of investigating the incident was prompted by a phone call from none other than Carlos Bringieur, the man who pretended to fight and then debate on the radio with “Lee Harvey Oswald” in August 1963 in New Orleans.

It's quite obvious that the Oswald Project at the time of the Bolton Ford incident had nothing to do with the Kennedy Assassination.  The Oswald Project didn't get used by the assassination planners until around the summer of 1963.

Karl,

Harvey and Lee is important and complicated.  The people over at the Deep Politics Forum were discussing setting up an entire subject board devoted just to Harvey and Lee, but John and I thought it would be better not to do that.  We asked them not to set it up, knowing full well it wasn't our call, but they were kind enough to agree.  No one is forcing you to read this stuff.

Paul,

The Beauregard school records are supposed to be genuine school documents, but some of us have our doubts.  Remember how all this stuff was gathered.  Within hours of the assassination, FBI agents were busy in New York City, New Orleans, and the Dallas area confiscating all the original school and teen-aged employment records of “Lee Harvey Oswald.” And the originals all disappeared. The Warren Commission was shown black and white photos of the documents.  Some NYC officials went so far as to question the feds asking what happened to their records.  

Why were these original documents deep-sixed?  One reason would be so they could be altered, a process much easier on b&w copies than on originals.    That said, I’m sure if there were alterations they were as few and as minor as was possible.  Gross changes might be noticed.

I’m not sure I’d put much importance on those faint marks in the summer school section.  No year, no school, no subject and no courses are listed, and the faint marks don’t even appear to me to be in the 53-54 row or the 54-55 row.  It may just be an impression or bleed through from another form, but that’s conjecture on my part.

My guess is that the FBI wouldn’t just try to change numbers by writing over existing numbers.  I think they were more thorough than that.  

Sandy’s clear analyses are always appreciated.  It does seem that summer school attendance is the only explanation for the numbers David quoted, but I have to agree with DJ that these documents have probably been “monkeyed with,” to quote Sandy’s phrase, just as the rifle documents were fabricated, “Oswald’s” possessions list was vastly altered, and the Dealey Plaza witnesses statements were fabricated out of thin air.  That’s just how the FBI rolled.

If these are composite documents created by the FBI, the numbers had to come from somewhere, and I’ll bet they were just transferred from the legitimate documents.  Fake or not, there is no innocent explanation for this material.  

So Burroughs was lying, to summarize Mr. B’s typically long-winded post above.  What a surprise!

Oh, heck, David.... I missed your entire post at the bottom of the last page and my wife is telling me we're running late for an engagement.

More asap.

59 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Hi, David,

Let’s go through the conflicting school records in more detail, starting with the PS44 records from New York City....

In 1953, Marguerite and LEE were living in a basement apartment at 1455 Sheridan while LEE was attending PS 44 in New York City. After the assassination SAC John Malone, the FBI agent in charge of the New York Office, inspected Oswald's original court file in the presence of Judge Florence Kelley. Malone took notes and sent a report to FBI Director Hoover the following day. Malone wrote, "Oswald's attendance record at PS #44 from 3/23/53 to 1/12/54 was 171 and 11 half-days present and 18 and 11 half days absent. If LEE Oswald's 182 days of attendance (171 full days, 11 1/2 days) and 18 absences are plotted on 1953 and 1954 calendars it is easy to see that LEE Oswald attended PS 44 full time during the entire 1953 school year.

Now let’s see how the PS 44 and Beauregard records conflict with each other.

I’m re-posting below the Beauregard cumulative record for LHO and below that two pages from an FBI report analyzing it.  Remember that the PS44 records clearly indicated that LHO attended more than 62 school days (and was absent three and a fraction days) for the semester beginning 9/14/53 at the NYC school.

Page 10 of the FBI report summarizes the attendance data in the “Absent,” “Tardy,” “Left” and “Re-Ad” columns, which are explained, according to the FBI agents, starting at the bottom of page 10 and continuing to page 11 by William Head, assistant principal at Warren Easton High School, who received the Beauregard records for incoming students.

At the bottom of page 10, the FBI indicates he said that the “Re ad” column stood for “Re Admitted” and “would represent a total listing of the school days for a given school year.”  But later in the very same paragraph, now at the top of page 11, the report indicates that Head said a school year regularly consisted of 180 days and that “school days in any given year must not fall below 170” and that “therefore the numbers listed opposite this abbreviation indicated the number of school days that Oswald attended for a given school year.”

So which is it?  Does the “Re-Ad” column represent the number of school days in a school semester or year, or the number of days a student actually attended during that period?

The answer is right before us in the documents shown above.    In the actual Beauregard cumulative record for LHO (top document above), look at the very last entry on the far right under the “Re-Ad” column.  It shows a total of “168” days for the 1954-55 school year. Head indicated that Louisiana law dictated a minimum of 170 school days in a school year, and so if we’re to believe that every student report card at Beauregard for the 1954-55 school year was evidence that Louisiana law was being broken.  On the other hand, using my interpretation (that the “168” indicated the actual days LHO attended school) we can make perfect sense of these numbers.  Adding Oswald’s 168 days of attendance and his 12 absences comes out to exactly 180 days, just what Head said comprised a typical Beauregard school year!

The “Re Ad” column clearly indicates the number of days a student actually attended school.  So let’s look at the first semester of the 1953-54 school year at Beauregard.  It indicates that Oswald attended 89 days and was absent once, for a total of 90 school days.

For the 1953 fall semester at PS 44 in New York, Oswald attended 62 and a fraction days and was absent three and a fraction days for a total of 66 school days accounted for.  Add those 66 days to the 90 days from Beauregard and you get at total of 156 days, equivalent to nearly an entire school year!  As you pointed out above, it is obvious that Harvey Oswald was a part-time student for this semester at Beauregard.  I believe this was carefully planned to gradually re-introduce him to New Orleans and its public school system.  NYC obviously had been a real problem, not for Lee, but for Harvey.  His truancy from school and his entanglement in NYC courts threatened to expose the Oswald Project.

Just for clarity.

David,

I'm not changing the subject.  I'm pointing out that during one school year we have one Oswald attending PS44 in New York City and another attending Beauregard in New Orleans.  The very next school year, we have one LHO at Beauregard, as the WC-published records show, and another LHO at Stripling.  The Stripling records were confiscated by the FBI and have since disappeared, but it was (and according to a recent local newspaper report still is) common knowledge that Oswald attended Stripling.  Showing evidence for two Oswalds in two consecutive school years is hardly changing the subject.

I'm not sure I understand your other point, and so if the Ed Forum will forgive me, I'll re-post the full Beauregard stuff from just a little earlier here so we can, uh, be on the same page.  Here 'tis:

I'd just like to point out to anyone bothering to follow all this that for the very next school year there is also obvious evidence of two Oswalds.  

During this school semester, LEE Oswald was attending Beauregard JHS in New Orleans and HARVEY Oswald was at W.C. Stripling junior high in Fort Worth, Texas.  Since the Warren Commission published the Beauregard records indicating “Lee Harvey Oswald” attended classes at Beauregard for the full fall semester of 1954, evidence that he also attended Stripling school at the same time would be a serious problem.  (Just as the Beauregard and NYC records, both published by the WC, are a serious problem now.)

So, what evidence is there that “Lee Harvey Oswald” attended Stripling School in Fort Worth?  H&L critics refuse to believe ANY of the following:

Stripling assistant principal Frank Kudlaty in 1963 met FBI agent at the school and gave them “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” Stripling records.  His YouTube interview is here.

On two separate occasions,  Robert Oswald told a Fort Worth newspaper that his brother attended Stripling.  See one of the articles here.

Robert also testified to the Warren Commission that his “brother” attended Stripling.

Harvey Oswald’s classmate Fran Schubert said she attended Stripling with Oswald and watched him walk home from Stripling to his house at 2220 Thomas Place.  See her YouTube interview with John here.

In the 1990s, Stripling School principal Ricardo Galindo told John that it was “common knowledge” that “Lee Harvey Oswald” attended Stripling.

John also spoke to local student Bobby Pitts, who remembered that Oswald attended Stripling with his younger brother and that he (Bobby) remembered seeing (Harvey) Oswald standing on the porch at 2220 Thomas Place, directly across the street from Stripling.  John also spoke with former Stripling student Doug Gann, who attended ninth grade at Stripling with Harvey and remembered that he live “across the street from the basketball courts and one or two houses to the left,” which exactly describes 2220 Thomas Place, where “Marguerite Oswald” lived at the time of the assassination of JFK. 

John made audio recordings of the Stripling people mentioned above, and we'll be putting together something about them next summer.  In the meantime....

A Forth Worth Star-Telegram article from November 2017 would indicate that Oswald’s “teachers and classmates remember him at Stripling, though there is no official record.”  Read the article here.

Hi, David,

Let’s go through the conflicting school records in more detail, starting with the PS44 records from New York City....

In 1953, Marguerite and LEE were living in a basement apartment at 1455 Sheridan while LEE was attending PS 44 in New York City. After the assassination SAC John Malone, the FBI agent in charge of the New York Office, inspected Oswald's original court file in the presence of Judge Florence Kelley. Malone took notes and sent a report to FBI Director Hoover the following day. Malone wrote, "Oswald's attendance record at PS #44 from 3/23/53 to 1/12/54 was 171 and 11 half-days present and 18 and 11 half days absent. If LEE Oswald's 182 days of attendance (171 full days, 11 1/2 days) and 18 absences are plotted on 1953 and 1954 calendars it is easy to see that LEE Oswald attended PS 44 full time during the entire 1953 school year.

Now let’s see how the PS 44 and Beauregard records conflict with each other.

I’m re-posting below the Beauregard cumulative record for LHO and below that two pages from an FBI report analyzing it.  Remember that the PS44 records clearly indicated that LHO attended more than 62 school days (and was absent three and a fraction days) for the semester beginning 9/14/53 at the NYC school.

Page 10 of the FBI report summarizes the attendance data in the “Absent,” “Tardy,” “Left” and “Re-Ad” columns, which are explained, according to the FBI agents, starting at the bottom of page 10 and continuing to page 11 by William Head, assistant principal at Warren Easton High School, who received the Beauregard records for incoming students.

At the bottom of page 10, the FBI indicates he said that the “Re ad” column stood for “Re Admitted” and “would represent a total listing of the school days for a given school year.”  But later in the very same paragraph, now at the top of page 11, the report indicates that Head said a school year regularly consisted of 180 days and that “school days in any given year must not fall below 170” and that “therefore the numbers listed opposite this abbreviation indicated the number of school days that Oswald attended for a given school year.”

So which is it?  Does the “Re-Ad” column represent the number of school days in a school semester or year, or the number of days a student actually attended during that period?

The answer is right before us in the documents shown above.    In the actual Beauregard cumulative record for LHO (top document above), look at the very last entry on the far right under the “Re-Ad” column.  It shows a total of “168” days for the 1954-55 school year. Head indicated that Louisiana law dictated a minimum of 170 school days in a school year, and so if we’re to believe that every student report card at Beauregard for the 1954-55 school year was evidence that Louisiana law was being broken.  On the other hand, using my interpretation (that the “168” indicated the actual days LHO attended school) we can make perfect sense of these numbers.  Adding Oswald’s 168 days of attendance and his 12 absences comes out to exactly 180 days, just what Head said comprised a typical Beauregard school year!

The “Re Ad” column clearly indicates the number of days a student actually attended school.  So let’s look at the first semester of the 1953-54 school year at Beauregard.  It indicates that Oswald attended 89 days and was absent once, for a total of 90 school days.

For the 1953 fall semester at PS 44 in New York, Oswald attended 62 and a fraction days and was absent three and a fraction days for a total of 66 school days accounted for.  Add those 66 days to the 90 days from Beauregard and you get at total of 156 days, equivalent to nearly an entire school year!  As you pointed out above, it is obvious that Harvey Oswald was a part-time student for this semester at Beauregard.  I believe this was carefully planned to gradually re-introduce him to New Orleans and its public school system.  NYC obviously had been a real problem, not for Lee, but for Harvey.  His truancy from school and his entanglement in NYC courts threatened to expose the Oswald Project.

Warren Burroughs told interviewers that the Oswald double he saw arrested in the theater was handcuffed.  Is there any evidence that George Applin was handcuffed?  There certainly is no mention of that in his affidavit or in his testimony.  

Even though Mr. B. says as if it were a known fact that Mr. Applin was the second man Mr. Burroughs thought he saw arrested, can we safely assume this is simply not true since there is no evidence whatsoever that Mr. Applin was ever handcuffed?

Will any H&L critic begin a substantive debate by summarizing right here on this board counter evidence to the points raised above?

ANYONE?

But what are those “alternate explanations,” Tracy?  You always point to someplace else, but you never debate the specifics here.  This isn’t rocket science.  It doesn’t require terribly lengthy explanations.

Why not discuss the details here?  Why do you always just point to Greg Parker's site or your blog and claim it is all "debunked" over there?  This is the JFK ASSASSINATION DEBATE forum.  Why not try debating the facts instead of just pointing elsewhere?  

Karl,

That’s certainly the way I remember it.

On my website, the page entitled The Man Who Could—and Couldn’t—Drive also quotes extensively from the testimony of barber and Irving City Council member Cliff Shasteen.  He testified that “Oswald” had his hair cut six or seven times in his barber shop near Dallas, three or four times by Mr. Shasteen himself.

During most of this period, Classic Oswald® was in New Orleans, not getting regular haircuts near Dallas.  What’s more, Mr. Shasteen testified that this Oswald drove a car that sounds like Ruth Paine’s.

Mr. JENNER. You have a distinct recollection that on occasions when this man came into your shop for a haircut, he drove an automobile up to your shop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. He drove that there 1955, I think it's a 1955, I'm sure it's a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon. It's either blue and white or green and white it's two-toned--I know that. Now, why I say--why I take it for granted that Mrs. Paine was with him when he come to the grocery store--I do remember he wasn't driving when they would come to the grocery store, there would be a lady driving and I'm assuming that that was Mrs. Paine, because like I say, I have been--I have never been close enough to her and knew it, to speak to her, but she trades at the service station where I do and I saw her in there and I never did pay any attention to her and I saw her passing, met her in the road in the car and those things. (WC X, 317)

Thanks for responding to this post.  In all honesty, I was hoping to lure Jeremy Bojczuk here to debate some of the issues I’ve listed above.  I’m still hoping he’s just working on some lengthy post about the mastoidectomy--his usual method to avoid the other issues--and will soon appear here.

Our point about the Konon Molody/Gordon Lonsdale saga is that Molody was a native-born Russian who moved, with the assistance of the Soviet NKVD chief, to California at the age of seven to live with his aunt, who posed as his mother.  (Wikipedia states the move occurred in 1934, but HistoryofSpies.com and Harvey and Lee put the date at 1929).

Molody lived in the United States for less than 10 years, but during that time he became fluent enough in the English language and U.S. culture that he was able, a bit later and for the better part of a decade, to pose as a U.S. student and businessman, mostly in London, and to work for at least several years as a Soviet spy. He was arrested in London in 1961, charged with spying, and convicted that same year.

The Molody/Lonsdale story has some obvious similarities to our picture of the Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald.  We believe both came to the U.S. with the help of intelligence agencies, and both within a relatively short time were able to pose as U.S. nationals.  Both were spies.  There were also some obvious differences between the two cases.  I’ll leave it to others, if there is sufficient interest, to point them out.

That said, it is simply wonderful to see that Robert Charles-Dunne has returned to this forum.  Even when he has the impertinence to suggest potential faults in some of my most deeply held beliefs, I cherish his posts, and hope sincerely that he will choose to stay with us for a while.  Welcome back, Robert!

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

David,

A simple answer:

Lee (American-born LHO) delivered the actual Tippit-killing .38 to his contact up in the balcony of the Texas Theater. That contact then delivered that same .38 to "Oswald" (Harvey) down on the main floor.

Hi, Paul.  Good to see you posting again.

John A. and I were talking a couple of weeks ago about your theory that Lee’s job at the theater might have been to get a .38 ultimately into Harvey’s hand.  My opinion was always that Lee’s job was to enrage the DPD by killing Tippit and then to lead the cops to the theater to grab and hopefully kill Harvey.

John A. is not convinced, though.  For one thing, he points out that assistant D.A. Bowie told Leo Sauvage there was a call from the cashier, but also that there were “Half a dozen calls” talking about someone suspicious entering into the theater.  John also wonders why the plotters would have taken the risk of Lee being arrested on the way to the theater.  That would have blown the whole plan.

I still kind of agree with David Andrew’s take.  My theory is that the plotters could have assumed that Westbrook would have somehow made an unforeseen arrest of Lee go away, but John is still not convinced.  Last word I heard from him on your theory was “I’m thinking about it.”

Here are 5 examples showing evidence for two Oswalds over an extended period of time, all prior to the six week or so period Sylvia Meagher discussed in her analysis of two Oswalds.  Can anyone debunk this evidence RIGHT HERE?  Please don't take the usual path of just saying someone else--Greg Parker or Tracy Parnell, for example--has debunked it and provide a link or two.  If you think someone has debunked it, summarize the evidence RIGHT HERE, so it can be debated.

1.  The IMPOSSIBLE 1953 school scenario: Lee HARVEY Oswald attending Beauregard JHS in New Orleans for 89 school days during the fall 1953 semester, all the while Lee has good attendance for the very same period at PS 44 in New York City.

The New York City Board of Education record below shows that LEE Harvey Oswald attended Public School 44  starting 3/23/53 and extending through mid-January 1954.

In New Orleans, the 1953 Beauregard JHS record below shows that Lee HARVEY Oswald attended 89 days of school during the fall semester of 1953, at the same time LEE Oswald attended PS 44 in New York City.

Both the documents above were published in the Warren Volumes.

2.  The refusal of the Social Security Administration to corroborate the official story of "Oswald's" pre-1962 income, offering instead "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report regarding employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps."

------------------

For all the evidence on this, click here.

3. The Marine Corps records are a gold mine: my favorite chronicles Harvey Oswald's trip to Formosa (Taiwan) while Lee was being treated for VD in Japan.

HARVEY Oswald Departed for Taiwan Aboard the USS Skagit (AKA 105) on Sept. 14, 1958. Note "AKA 105" Under "Record of Events" near top left of this document:

The Unit Diary below shows that HARVEY Oswald was in Ping Tung, Taiwan, on Oct. 6, 1958.

Here’s a 1953 image of the ship Harvey Oswald took .  Note the “K.A. 105” lettering by the bow.

During this very same time Harvey was aboard the USS Skagit and stationed in Taiwan, LEE  Oswald was being treated for V.D in Atsugi, Japan.  From September 14 through October 6 HARVEY Oswald was in Taiwan. At the same time, from September 16 through October 6, LEE Oswald was in Japan. Medical records for NAS Navy 3835 (Naval Hospital), located in Atsugi, Japan, show numerous medical entries for LEE Oswald recorded on Sept 16, 20, 22, 23, 29, and Oct 6.. HARVEY Oswald's assignment in Taiwan, while LEE Oswald made numerous visits to the Naval Hospital in Japan, are an obvious "smoking gun."

4.  While Harvey Oswald was in Russia, Lee Oswald was working in Florida and Louisiana with anti-Castro Cubans and their handlers.  Perfect examples are the HSCA testimony of Marita Lorenz and the infamous Bolton Ford visit.

-----------------

For much more on this, see an article I wrote on my website:

The Bolton Ford Incident

5.  The impossible answer(s) to the simple questions: Could “Lee Harvey Oswald” drive a car? Did he have a Texas drivers license?

OFFICE OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY

STATE OF LOUISIANA

PARISH OF ORLEANS

S T A T E M E N T
 

DATE:               February 14, 1968
      
STATEMENT OF:       ALETHA FRAIR
      
RESIDING AT:        8001 Benson
                    New Orleans, LA
                    Phone - 242-2126

My name is ALETHA FRAIR (MRS. JOHN FRAIR). I live at:

8001 Benson
New Orleans, La.
Phone - 242-2126

I worked for the Department of Public Safety in Austin, Texas from the early part of October 1963, through the early part of December 1963. While I was employed at the Department of Public Safety I worked in the License Records Department. This Dept. Was responsible for the IBM computer records of all driver's licenses in the state of Texas.

My husband, JOHN, was working for the United Press International during November of 1963 and on November 22, 1963 he was in Uvalde, Texas, covering the birthday of ex-Vice President JOHN NANCE GARNER.

I did not go to work on the 22 of November, 1963, but the following event occured (sic) the week after the assassination of President KENNEDY.

During the week following the murder of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, on either Wednesday the 27th, or Thursday the 28th of November, 1963 the Texas driver's license issued to LEE HARVEY OSWALD came into my division.

The record (IBM card) on OSWALD was pulled from the files. Several other employees (5 or 6) of the Department saw the driver's license which was dirty and worn as though it had been carried in a billfold. The license was the talk of the office that day since everyone knew who OSWALD was, and the reason his driver's license records were being pulled from the active file was the fact that he had been killed.

In October of 1966 my husband and I moved to New Orleans and in June of 1967 my husband went to work for WWL-TV, Channel 4.

I, ALETHA FRAIR, hereby affirm that all of the above statement is true to the best of my knowledge.

Signed February 14, 1968.

(Signature of Aletha Frair)

(Signature of witness Gary Sanders)
(Signature of witness Jody Duek)

For much more on this, see:

The Man Who Could--and Couldn't--Drive

3 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

I presume that Jim doesn't take at face value Burroughs' statement that he "saw the second Oswald placed under arrest and handcuffed". Being placed under arrest and handcuffed isn't the same thing as being escorted by the police down the balcony steps and across the auditorium.

That is NOT a direct quote from Mr. Burroughs.  It is a statement by James Douglass describing what was said.  It could easily mean that the second Oswald had been handcuffed already by the time Mr. Burroughs saw him.  As I have said time and time again, there is simply nothing in JFK and the Unspeakable that precludes a balcony arrest, as the author himself attested.

3 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

As I pointed out earlier, I don't have any reason to doubt that the real-life, historical, one and only Lee Harvey Oswald entered the Texas Theater shortly after 1 o'clock, as Burroughs claimed.

The evidence that two young men for years were sharing the identity of “Lee Harvey Oswald,” despite the efforts of Hoover to make all that evidence disappear, is simply overwhelming.  This evidence exists all the way back to the 1950s (including school, military and Social Security records), extends to the weeks prior to the assassination, and even exists in abundance on assassination day, from the morning hours until the events in the TSBD immediately before and after the shots rang out, to the bus and taxi ride and the Nash Rambler escape from Dealey Plaza, to the Tippit murder (for which the closest witness said the killer looked like “Oswald” but had different hair), to the multiple arrests in the theater, and to events immediately thereafter, including, especially, the Wes Wise allegation.

Mr. B will tell you all this has been debunked somewhere else, on a site run by Greg Parker or a blog by Tracy Parnell, but I predict he will refuse to debate the specifics here, on the JFK Assassination Debate Forum because, I suspect, he knows the evidence really hasn’t been debunked at all.  But hope springs eternal. I’m starting up a new thread called “Evidence for Harvey and Lee” that will start with five pieces of evidence I presented earlier in this thread. 

If Mr. B, or anyone else, does anything other than claim it has been debunked somewhere else and provide a link or two, I’ll be very surprised.

Thanks for that, Michael.  I had no idea Mr. Glover posted here.  I'll try to find the time to read some of your links.

13 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

The reality is the Burrogh's story has greatly changed.   Had it changed in the 70's it could be chalked up to fear but when Postal's testimony is considered it tends to call his credibility into question.  If his accounts were verified by other sources it would help.  

Simply, Jim Marrs would have thoroughly interviewed him.  The "no one asked" argument fails at this point because Marrs would have asked.

 I do not think Burrough's account is critical to the two Oswalds theory because we have the multiple other sightings, testimony, and Hoover memo confirming same 

It just occurred to me that James Douglass answered this critique in endnote 444 of JFK and the Unspeakable.  Here’s what he wrote:

Butch Burroughs is a man of few words. When asked a question, he answers exactly what he is asked. Burroughs told me no one had ever asked him before about a second arrest in the Texas Theater. In response to my question, “Now you didn’t see anybody else [besides Oswald] get arrested that day, did you?” he answered, “Yes, there was a lookalike—an Oswald lookalike.” In response to further questions, he described the second arrest, that of the “Oswald lookalike.” Ibid.

I checked, and Mr. Santos is quite right that there is no mention in Crossfire of Mr. Burroughs saying that he saw the arrest of the Oswald lookalike.  But it most likely didn’t occur to Jim Marrs to ask that specific question.  From Mr. Douglass’s description, it sounds like Burroughs wasn’t going to mention it to him either during the 2007 interview, until Douglass asked specifically about it.  Mr. Burroughs probably wouldn’t make a very good journalist, but the explanation sounds reasonable to me.

Mr. Burroughs' recollections might well have been verified by the "other sources" Mr. Santos refers to but, of course, the Dallas Police "lost" all the names of the theater patrons, even though, at Captain Westbrook's apparent direction, every theater patron was interviewed at the theater and a list of their names and addresses supposedly made by three cops.

As I said before, it is also quite apparent that back in 1993 Mr. Burroughs told Jim Glover that he “also saw Oswald’s double being arrested and taken out the back door of the theatre....” 

Thanks, John.  I also wondered why Paine photos would be mixed with "Oswald" prints.

7 hours ago, John Butler said:

Karl,

I believe he Oswald double seen by Robert Vinson was the original Lee Harvey Oswald known by the Harvey and Lee folks as Lee Oswald.  Why?  Depending on one's facial recognition abilities one could actually distinguish the two.  Most could not.  They would be seen as the same person based on memory, or a very similar person.

The second thing is where they went.  This is the reason for this speculation that who Vinson saw was the original Lee Harvey Oswald. They went to Roswell Air Force Base, formerly Walker Air Force base. This was a important and high level clearance secret military base.  It was a Strategic Air Command base.  Lee Oswald was no stranger to secret military installations.  He was stationed at several and visited others.  Oswald was not a wannabe spy or a low level intelligence agent.  The Oswald Project was involved in high level government secret operations since the two, Harvey and Lee, entered the Marine Corps.  Lee Oswald was trained to be a defector by the CIA with high level information on the U2 spy plane and other military secrets.  He was exposed to more secrets than most.

If Oswald, either one, was a wannabe spy then how did he come into contact with so many intelligence people and why was he at so many super secret military bases with advance knowledge of spy planes and nuclear secrets.  How did he find spies to associate with? 

Think about it for a moment.  A secret CIA C-54 cargo plane diverts from its original destination to pick up two men in Dallas, Tx directly after the assassination of a president.  The diversion of the plane says these two men were very important.  The place they landed was south of the Trinity River.  This has to be Houston Street down by the Trinity River.  That particular street was under construction on its north end south of the Trinity.  (Which makes me wonder was the construction part of the cover-up plan to have a rapid get away plan handy if needed.  That is a bit too speculative.)

The original Lee Harvey Oswald vanishes from history never to be heard from again after this incident.  As Jim Hargrove says just how many doubles would you want hanging around after the assassination?

A good question to ask is did Lee Oswald know his destiny after Harvey Oswald was shot by Jack Ruby? 

John,

I remember almost chuckling when Vinson mentioned Roswell.  Is that the same thing as Area 51?  You seem to know a lot about these military bases.  Is there anything more you can tell us about Roswell Air Force Base that would be germane to this discussion?

The hardest part of Vinson's story for me to accept is that a big C-54 cargo plane could land by the Trinity River near Dallas and not attract widespread attention.  

Rich,

I’m certainly open to information about more than two people using the name “Lee Harvey Oswald” as part of the CIA’s “Oswald project,” but how about some evidence for that?  The “Oswald” sightings in and around Alice, Texas in early October 1963 are the only examples I can conjure that may require more than two Oswalds to explain.  Do you have other, specific examples?

Cory,

I wouldn’t bet the farm on your analysis of the Marrs interview with Burroughs.  By 1993, just six years after the Marrs interview, Burroughs clearly told Jim Glover privately that he “also saw Oswald’s double being arrested and taken out the back door of the theatre...”  This was five years or so before interest in two Oswalds began to be revived by John Armstrong.

8 hours ago, Karl Kinaski said:

@John Butler. Thx for the info .. ... ... It is my understanding, that there were several Oswald doubles around that days in Dallas, and nobody can say if the Cargo plane double was the Texas Theater double ... . it is therefore one of those interesting story's surroundings the assassination where one can see the fingerprints of intelligence, leading to nowhere ... as intended by the plotters, I guess ... 

KK

Karl,

If you were a conspirator, how many different "Oswald doubles" would you want to employ? Each would be a potential loose end who would somehow have to be silenced.

By the way, you can hear Robert Vinson describe this whole event in his own words on YouTube.  There are two parts to his interview, but the second is the most germane.

Robert Vinson YouTube Interview, part 2

1 hour ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

What Burroughs did state, according to Douglass, is that a fake Oswald was "placed under arrest and handcuffed". This must have happened on the ground floor, for reasons I've already given several times (Burroughs never went up to the balcony, and could not have seen into the balcony).

Not necessarily.  Because Burroughs said he saw someone arrested does not mean he saw the entire arrest process.  As Douglass stated and I have repeated perhaps a dozen times now, the cops may have taken the second Oswald down from the balcony where he was then seen by Burroughs.  Burroughs would describe that, as would almost anyone, as seeing a guy who looked like Oswald arrested. Bernard Haire also saw the second Oswald arrested, although he clearly saw him only after he was brought outside into the alley--he didn't see the entire arrest process.

Mr. B. has already conceded the likelihood of what he calls an Oswald “decoy” entering the theater after Classic Oswald® arrived.  This accounts for one Oswald being seen in the theater by Jack Davis and Warren Burroughs before the official WC time for the murder of Tippit  (1:15), and for the arrival some minutes later of the second Oswald as described in the Brewer/Postal saga.  This is probably the reason the list of theater patrons assembled by three cops had to disappear. These cops reportedly locked down the theater and interviewed every patron inside before several accompanied George Applin to the police station.

Mr. B. writes above that Applin was “led by police out the rear door” even though he knows there is no evidence indicating which door Applin used to exit the theater, and even though he knows Applin  left only after all those police interviews, and even though he has no idea if Applin looked anything at all like Classic Oswald.

The arrest of an Oswald lookalike in the theater is made all the more likely by the sheer volume of evidence that an Oswald lookalike was active that whole day. The closest witness to the Tippit shooting said the shooter looked like “Oswald” except for his hair; Roger Craig and several others said  Oswald left Dealey Plaza in a Nash Rambler station wagon while the WC concluded (and by his photographs Stuart Reed predicted) another Oswald left by bus and taxi.  And on and on. The evidence for two Oswalds in this whole affair is simply enormous.