Jim Hargrove

3 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

It is an invention by a crackpot who thought the moon landings didn't happen.

Insults aren’t necessary to discuss the facts.  

Among the people who have expressed a belief that two Oswalds may have existed for an extended period of time are John Armstrong, John Newman, Peter Dale Scott, Joseph McBride, Pat Shannan, George Schwimmer, David Mantik, David Josephs, Sandy Larsen, Robert Groden, and James Norwood, among others that I’m undoubtedly forgetting.  These people are not crackpots!

Perhaps Mr. B can tell us how it is that “Lee Harvey Oswald,” who dropped out of high school in his freshman year, and while in the Marines and before he ever set foot in the Soviet Union, scored essentially the same grades on a Russian language exam as on English language tests?  

On the mastoidectomy, I think it was Harvey Oswald who had it and not Lee.  As soon as he learned about the mastoidectomy issue, I think Hoover faked a document, as he faked so many others, so the historical records would match the dead Harvey Oswald’s body.  There is no medical evidence found for Harvey’s mastoidectomy because it was most likely performed outside the United States, before he was brought to the US.

Thank you for this deep analysis, Michael.  It goes far beyond anything I have studied so far (or at least can remember).

What's your best estimate for the time of Tippit's Top 10 call?  (John A. puts it right about 1 pm.)

My bet is that any “smoking guns” in the remaining documents were scrubbed long ago, but I’d love to be wrong on that.

Government records (federal and local) about “Lee Harvey Oswald” is a fascinating subject.  One Oswald clearly had a valid Texas drivers license while the other did not.  There are fascinating Social Security oddities about “LHO as well.  And then there is this note from John A’s book, Harvey and Lee:

NOTE: Following the assassination of President Kennedy, US Senator Richard Russell
(a member of the Warren Commission) asked former Army Intelligence office Colonel
Phillip Corso to conduct a discreet inquiry into the assassination. After contacting Francis
Knight, head of the US Passport Office, Corso reported to Senator Russell that Knight
had told him there were two passports issued to "Lee Harvey Oswald" and they had been
used by two different people. 66

Endnote 66 reads:

66. Anthony Summers, Official and Confidential, the Secret Life of J. Edgar Hoover (New York) 1993, p. 322; Authors interview with Phillip Corso, 1996.

Phillip Corso wrote a book about spooky dealings involving possibly alien technology at Roswell, and for that reason some people discredit him, but it seems worthwhile to at least keep his claim in mind.  Corso did have an extensive background in US Army Intell.

The two Oswalds were never in the same Marine Corps units at the same time.  That would be stupid.  The whole idea was secrecy, not publicity.  Harvey and Lee were carefully kept apart during the entire existence of the Oswald Project--little more than a decade. 

This was an intelligence project from start to finish.  In the military, the paperwork was undoubtedly controlled accordingly.

Immediately after the assassination, loose ends were cleaned up in large part by FBI personnel directed by Hoover. These agents visited and confiscated documents from schools and workplaces hours after the assassination. These same agents were told to do no follow-up work on their own and not to talk to one other about their investigations. The mistakes and oversights of this Hoover-directed campaign allowed the evidence we have of two Oswalds to survive, and there is a surprising amount of it.  But you have to make a bit of an effort, at least, to understand it.

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

@Jim Hargrove Do you have any other evidence that Oswald was actually in Taiwan?

 

Absolutely!  There is a ton of evidence that “Lee Harvey Oswald” was stationed near Ping Tung, Taiwan (aka Formosa) at the very same time he was being treated for VD in Japan, two locations roughly 1400 miles apart.  I’ve already shown in this very thread the DoD report indicating he was shipped to the “South China Sea area” on 9/14/1958 and the USMC unit diaryindicating he was in Ping-Tung, Taiwan a couple of weeks later. 

But there’s much more evidence than this.

Marguerite Oswald told the Warren Commission, "Lee was in Japan, Lee was in Corregidor, Lee was in the Philippines, Lee was in Formosa."

Priscilla Johnson interviewed Harvey Oswald at the Metropole Hotel in Moscow in 1959.  She wrote, “At 17 he entered the Marine Corps and was discharged in September, having spent 14 months in Japan, the Philippines, Indonesia, and Formosa [Taiwan]....”

A U.S. Navy message dated November 4, 1959 said that “Oswald served with Marine Air Control Squadrons in Japan and Taiwan with duties involving ground control intercept.”

A message from the Chief of Naval Operations to “ALSUNA” in Moscow said, “Oswald served with the Marine Air Control Squadron operations in Japan and Taiwan.”

There is plenty more evidence, a lot, indicating Oswald was in Formosa, but are people here so desperate to discredit Harvey and Lee that they will seriously argue Oswald was not in Formosa?  Really? 

Why don’t you folks just relax and let the truth settle in?  For most of its existence, that Oswald Project was an entirely patriotic program.  It just got tragically misused and misdirected in 1963.  That’s no reason for us to be misdirected more than 60 years later.

(Sorry about the duplicate graphic at top.  I can't seem to delete one)

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

What’s the source for CE1961? It looks like a report prepared after the assassination. If the source for that report is the same document you originally posted, the author(s) likely made the same mistake of using the document date instead of the actual listed embarkment date. That original, primary source military document states unambiguously that the ship embarked on 8/29/58. If not in the actual exhibit, there should be memos etc. on how and why CE1961 was prepared, and what documents they used as sources. 

Check it HERE to see if you agree, but it looks to me like CE 1961 was prepared by the Department of Defense in response to a May 19, 1964 letter from the WC's J. Lee Rankin.  Seems a little tough to believe that DoD personnel did not know how to read the documents they were reporting on.

13 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

OK. I am disputing nothing

But---the answer to the question is, in the military, no one ever testified that they saw the two Oswalds together, in the same room (or field operation, etc.).

So the two Oswalds worked in relatively near proximity for a while in the military, but as far as witnesses knew, the two never crossed paths? 

Yes, that seems like a fair statement in general, but I think it was entirely planned that way.  This was an intelligence operation designed to give a Russian speaking youth the identity of an American-born Southerner.  The Russian-speaking Oswald needed experiences that matched as closely as possible the experiences of the American-born Oswald so that, when questioned by Soviet authorities, the foreign-born young man could answer reasonably as if he was his native-born counterpart.

In the USMC, the two Oswalds were sometimes stationed close to one another, but among entirely different troops.  For example, in 1958, American-born Lee Oswald was stationed at the USMC air station at El Toro, California, while Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was at the air facility in Santa Ana, just seven miles away.

There was also an attempt to give Harvey just limited time in the Marines, probably to avoid as much as possible the chances of entanglement with Lee, either on paper or in person.  Although the Warren Commission told us that Oswald worked briefly at Pfisterer Dental Lab in New Orleans in 1956, he actually was there for a longer period of time, in 1957 and 1958, while the other Oswald was still in the Marines.  Palmer McBride, William Wulf, and Pfisterer president Linda Faircloth all confirmed the 1957-1958 dates, Ms. Faircloth in a filmed YouTube interview with John A.
 

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Before this thread degenerates into yet another H&L copy-and-paste spamathon, 

This is NOT  “another H&L copy-and-paste spamathon….” 

For example, in my first post near the top of this page, the WC images had never appeared on HarveyandLee.net until just a few minutes before I made the post, when I uploaded the graphics to a special directory I keep there just for posts here. To get the WCR image, I opened up the Warren Report on my computer, found the Taiwan reference, saved a screen shot of the page, cropped the image, and then uploaded it to the H&L directory so I could show it here.

I work hard on these posts, and your incessant insults are usually both untrue and entirely predictable. Sandy is right.  You indulge in Harvey and Lee “shaming” whenever possible.  What could be more obvious?

15 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Do you have any accounts of people simultaneously seeing or meeting both HLO/LHOs? 

That is, the two were seen together in the same room?

Or somebody said, "Oh, he must one of the Oswald twins."

I wanted to give Ben another person who met both Oswalds.  A Texas Employment Commission interviewer named Laura Kittrell met two men who both said they were Lee Harvey Oswald and talked to each in her office.  Ms. Kittrell said the two Oswalds "were much alike in size, shape and outline, generally, there was a marked difference between them in bearing and manner."

Shown below is the bottom of page 8 and the top of page 9 of a ten-page July 18, 1978 memo from the HSCA's Gaeton Fonzi to Blakey.

To read more about Ms. Kittrell's encounter with both Oswald, click the link below.

https://harveyandlee.net/Kittrell/Kittrell.htm

I wanted to wrap up the documents on Oswald’s simultaneous appearances 1400 miles apart in Japan and Taiwan by referring once more to Tom Gram’s post in which he suspected the sail date for Oswald’s ship to the South China Sea area was August 29, 1958 instead of the date we used, which was Sept. 14, 1958.  Tom made a good case, but the bulk of the evidence supports our date of 9/14.

For example, p. 684 of the WC Report states:

On September 14, Oswald sailed with his unit for the South China Sea area; the uni was at Ping Tung, North Taiwan on September 30, and returned to Atsugi on October 5. [361]

Endnote 361 referred to this document:

Unless Tom has more information, I’m going with our original date of Sept. 14, 1958, but whether we use Tom’s date or the WC’s, there is just no way one Oswald could have appeared all those times at the hospital in Japan throughout the second half of September while he was in Taiwan and sailing the 1400 miles back and forth (a total of 2800 miles).

9 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Do you have any accounts of people simultaneously seeing or meeting both HLO/LHOs? 

That is, the two were seen together in the same room?

Or somebody said, "Oh, he must one of the Oswald twins."

We think there were quite a few people who knew both Oswalds, a condition which seemed to be extremely bad for their healths.  One critical witness was Ed Voebel, who knew Harvey in the 8th grade and Lee in the 9th at Beauregard JHS in New Orleans.

If you want to understand John A’s extended take on Voebel, go to this page, search for Voebel, and read the paragraphs that mention him:

https://harveyandlee.net/Early/Early.html

Ed Voebel died at the Ochsner Clinic in New Orleans in May 1971 at the age of 32.  Voebel's father said that his son, healthy one day and dead the following day, died under mysterious circumstances.  He told the House Select Committee on Assassinations that he thought his son's death had something to do with Oswald and the JFK assassination, but he had no proof.  

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Why not by military transport (aircraft)? At 400 mph, that is a three-hour trip. 

Do you suspect there were two LHOs in the military service, in close proximity to each other, in 1958?

YES!  ABSOLUTELY! THEY NEEDED TO HAVE IDENTICAL BACKGROUNDS!

One LHO, probably a Russian speaking WWII war orphan, was named Harvey Lee Oswald; the other, an American born southerner, was named Lee Harvey Oswald.  I think the "Oswald Project" was an entirely patriotic operation designed to place a Russian-speaking "American" youth into the USSR, which is EXACTLY what happened in 1959. This was the height of the Cold War.  Three years later, in 1963, tragically, the Oswald Project was taken over by snakes organized to assassinate JFK, cover it up, and blame it on Communist Cuba!  Three or four of these snakes were in the CIA, I think.

More about Oswald’s magical mystery tour to Ping-Tung, Taiwan….

The HSCA’s Robert Blakey apparently knew there was a problem with “Oswald’s” Ping-Tung/Atsugi timeline.  Blakey wrote a long letter to Secretary of Defense Harold Brown which included the following (documents below):

2.  During which periods was Oswald separated from his units overseas because of hospitalization.

Oswald’s health records reflect that he was sent “to mainside for a smear” on September 16, 1958.  (See Warren Commission Vol 19, p. 603; see also Vol. 8, p. 313.) But other records reveal that Oswald’s unit, MAG 11, sailed from Yokosuka, Japan, on September 16, 1958, for the South China Sea area, and did not return to Japan until October 5, 1958.   (See Warren Commission Vol. 23, p. 797; see also Warren Report, p. 684.)

Judith Miller from the Office of the Secretary of Defense wrote back as follows:

Oswald did not set sail from Yokosuka, Japan on September 16, 1958.  He remained aboard NAS Atsugi as part of the MAG-11 rear echelon.

It is true that Marine records indicate Oswald did not set sail on the USS Skagit on September 16, 1958 as Blakey (deliberately?) incorrectly asked, but on  Aug 29, 1958 (thanks Tom Gram!).

The Sec Def’s additional response that Oswald “remained aboard NAS Atsugi as part of the MAG-11 rear echelon” seems to imply that he never went to Taiwan.  But there is considerable evidence that he did, extending beyond the Marine Corps unit diaries and including written reports of interviews with Oswald as well as his own alleged words and Marguerite’s testimony.

If the one-and-only Lee Harvey Oswald’s Taiwan trip extended from Aug 29 to October 5, 1958, how on earth was he treated all those times in September at the Navy hospital at Atsugi, Japan?

PS: Thanks to Denny for the kind words.

21 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Jim, it looks like you are going off of the authentication date for the document in the bottom right. The actual dates of embarkment listed on the left are different: 

In the first one the ship embarked for the South China Sea area on 8/29/58, not 9/14. 9/14 is when the document was signed off - which implies they were back in Japan by that time, does it not? The location: Japan field at the top seems to confirm that. 

So if Oswald is in Japan on the 14th it’s no mystery that he’s getting treated for VD in Japan on the 16th. 

The next document shows the date as 9/25, not 10/6. The document was prepared in Taiwan on 10/6, but that doesn’t mean Oswald was there at that time. The notes say: 

Drop asgd to subunit #1 H&MS 11 NAS Atsugi Japan auth OO MAG 11 ltr S-1:RFS:alh of 25Sept58

Does that mean that the assigned were “dropped” in Japan on the 9/25? Or that the transfer was approved on that date? If so I’m not sure how Oswald got to Taiwan between the 16th and 25th, but it’s not impossible at least. 

This was just a quick glance and I could be missing something, but either way the actual assignment/embarkment dates tell a different story than the document approval dates. 

Thank you for the serious reply, Tom.  You may be quite right that the doc shows a departure date for the USS Skagit of Aug. 29, 1958, not Sept. 14 as I thought.  

The dates on these documents, however, still show a clear conflict between the dates of Oswald’s Taiwan trip and his treatment dates at the Atsugi marine hospital.   

Looking at the line:

“Drop asgd to subunit #1 H&MS 11 NAS Atsugi Japan auth OO MAG 11 ltr S-1:RFS:alh of 25Sept58,”

You ask, “Does that mean that the assigned were “dropped” in Japan on the 9/25? Or that the transfer was approved on that date?” 

But it really doesn’t matter. According to either interpretation, Oswald did not arrive back in Japan earlier than 9/25, which conflicts with his visit to the Atsugi hospital on Sept. 16, and apparently again on Sept. 20, Sept. 22, and Sep. 23.

Here’s how Captain Donabedian testified to the Warren Commission about those treatments, indicating that Oswald’s urethral discharge was noted and treated at the Atsugi facility well before the earliest date he could have returned to Japan.

Mr. ELY - I would like at this point to refer you to pages 152 through 156 of this exhibit. 
I shall let you proceed to explain what these mean without questioning. 
Captain DONABEDIAN - On 9- 10- 58, slight burning on urination. "Has urethral discharge." 
Mr. ELY - Well, if you cannot read it, there is no point-- -- 
Captain DONABEDIAN - Then they took a smear. 
Mr. ELY - What is the purpose of a smear? 
Captain DONABEDIAN - A smear is to diagnose the cause of the infection, the cause of the discharge, to see what type of bacteria was present. 
And on 9- 23- 58, report of a urethral discharge sensitivity test. A culture was taken and reported staphylococcal hemolytic. And the sensitivity test to determine what drug we have that will affect that particular bacteria that is causing this. And erythromycin was the drug of choice. 
On page 154, on 16 September 58 he evidently went to one of the outlying dispensaries, and they said "Send to the mainside for smear," which means he was sent to the mainside dispensary to get the smear taken. 
September 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They sent him to the lab for a smear. 
And here it says, "Gram negative, diplococci intra- and extra- cellular morphological resembling neisseria gonococci." 
Mr. ELY - Could you tell us, Doctor, generally, what that means? 
Captain DONABEDIAN - Well, this resembles the gonococcus bacteria which causes gonorrhea. And it says here morphologically resembling this germ-- since the only legal diagnosis would be to have a culture made to prove this or disprove it. 
And here for his treatment they gave him penicillin, it looks like 400,000units, four times a day, for 3 days, and said "Return on Monday in the p.m., for a repeat smear."
Then on September 30, 1958, "Still has profuse discharge, somewhat clearer,received course of penicillin ending 2 days ago." 
In other words, he had finished getting his penicillin. So for this profuse discharge, they treated him with chloromycetin capsules, one, four times a day,and return Monday for smear and culture. Then on September 22-- -- 
Mr. ELY - I believe the last item was September 20. 

Serious discussion of this issue is most appreciated.  I’ll discuss the Skagit embarkation date with John A.   

Also, for Benjamin Cole:

Thanks for your note.  It also occurred to me that air travel was the only way to reconcile the USMC documents about the Taiwan trip and Oswald’s treatments in Japan.  There are two Vietnam-era Marine Corps vets in my family, and I asked both if they thought it possible that a marine private would be airlifted considerable distances for VD treatment.  Both said it wouldn’t happen.

When there are disagreements about issues in this case, why not discuss the EVIDENCE?

In support of the two Oswald analysis, here’s one bit of evidence showing that Lee Harvey Oswald was in two widely scattered places at the same time while in the U.S. Marines.

The evidence shows that Oswald embarked from Japan on the USS Skagit (AKA 105) bound for the “South China Sea Area” on Sept. 14, 1958.

Two days later, on Sept. 16, 1958, he was back in Japan being treated for VD.

A couple of weeks later, on Oct. 6 1958, Oswald was stationed near Ping-Tung on the island of Taiwan.

On the very same day, Oct. 6, 1958,  Oswald was treated again at the Naval Hospital in Atsugi, Japan, more than 1400 miles from Taiwan.  I’ve just shown part of the evidence for this example; there is more.

Will Harvey and Lee critics discuss the EVIDENCE here, on the JFK Assassination Debate Forum?  Or will they just say it has all been debunked before.  Perhaps they’ll post a flurry of links to other websites, or say that it was debunked on this site years ago.

BUT THIS SINGLE EXAMPLE OF MULTIPLE LHOs HAS NEVER BEEN DEBUNKED, here or anywhere else.  Nor have many other examples.

Why not avoid the ad-hominem attacks and, for once, discuss the evidence here?  If you have contrary evidence, it  doesn’t need to be lengthy.  Just give us a few sentences explaining how one man was in two places 1400 miles apart as documented by USMC paperwork.
 

9 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

If I'm not mistaken, the Two Oswalds theory and the Armstrong theory are not the same theory. I believe the Two Oswalds theory, as originally offered, was that someone was impersonating Oswald for the final months, perhaps even years, of his life. Armstrong's theory is that there were two Oswalds and two Marguerites etc, for a decade or more. Furthermore, while many have praised Harvey and Lee for the breadth of its research, few, and I'm fairly certain Groden is not among them, have signed off on its assertion there were two Oswalds even prior to Oswald's entry into the military. It is, in fact, a fringe theory. it doesn't mean it's wrong. But if there were to be a public debate between, let's say, an LN team of Gerald Posner, Dale Myers, Fred Litwin, and five other LNs, against let's say, Cyril Wecht, Robert Groden, Jim DiEugenio, John Newman, Jeff Morley, Gary Aguilar, Larry Hancock, and Malcolm Blunt,  and someone brought up Armstrong's conclusions, I think all 16 people on the stage would agree it's not worth discussing and move on to a new topic. 

Just a hunch. But I've met the 8 CTs I've listed, and I don't think any would want to defend Armstrong's claim there were two Marguerite Oswalds on the loose in the poor defenseless 1950's. 

 

Pat,

Thank you for the substantive post.  I agree that many of the early researchers who wrote about Two Oswalds or an Oswald impersonator were indeed referring to the few months prior to the assassination.  Sylvia Meagher is a perfect example.  Only a handful of researchers looked back a decade or so to see if the evidence extended back that far, but the evidence, nevertheless, is considerable.

For example, how did “Lee Harvey Oswald” acquire Russian language skills sufficient to enable him to score similar marks on English language and Russian language exams while in the USMC, before ever setting foot in the Soviet Union?  Why, when he was still in the Marines, did he have a long conversation in Russian with Rosaleen Quinn, who told the WC that “Oswald spoke Russian well.”  At the time this high school dropout was still a teenager.

Serious questions about the identity of LHO have permeated mainstream JFK research for decades.  For example, here’s a discussion by two of the people you mentioned above.  I’d argue against several of the specifics, but their openness to long-term impersonation of LHO is obvious.

Peter Dale Scott and John Newman on two Oswalds from the March 3, 2018 “Spy War” conference (emphasis added by me):

Above clip from 3 March, 2018 "Spy Wars" Conference, San Francisco, Part 2.

Speakers in this clip are:

Bill Simpich--BS
Peter Dale Scott – PDS
John Newman – JN

At approximately the 37:12 mark in the YouTube clip above:

BS: There’s two different genuses of false phone calls. 
PDS: Yeah, exactly.  One was a call with a lie in it, the other was an alleged call that did not, in fact, take place.
JN: The Tuesday call didn’t take place?
PDS: No, the Tuesday call did take place by a man, I’m sure, was not the Oswald we think of….
JN: Right
PDS: ... and then, by the way… this is just a question… are you absolutely convinced that the man who was “Lee Harvey Oswald” in Russia was, in fact, the man picked up in Dallas in 1963?
JN: Not at all.  And I’ve gone over to the view that in Mexico City that, maybe it’s him, maybe it’s not. So I’m not going to be dogmatic about it. He could have been there and impersonated or could have been not there at all.
PDS: ... There is a fragment of a release that says that the man who made the phone calls spoke horrible Russian AND English!  So, I do not think that was the man in Dallas….  This is completely anecdotal but I once had an hour long conversation with Marina where I was trying my hardest not to bring up the assassination.  We were talking about literature and I said did she like Henry James and she said she had never heard of Henry James, who was Henry James and I said, “Oh, he’s sort of like the American Turgenev.  And she said, “Oh, Turgenev, Alek really loved Turgenev.”  The man who checked out books from the New Orleans Public Library was not a lover of Turgenev.

2 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

I will just say again, for the umpeenth time, that there are basically ZERO credible JFK assassination researchers who take "Harvey and Lee" seriously, and just as few who believe in massive fakery and deception as it pertains to the Dealey Plaza photo record. That should tell Sandy Larsen something, but clearly it doesn't ...

Our own Joseph McBride has often said that John Armstrong convinced him there were two Oswalds.  

David Mantik, David Josephs, Robert Groden, James Norwood, among many others, have held Harvey and Lee in the highest regard.  If memory serves, Mr. Mantik once said it was his favorite book on the subject.  There's a whole section in Groden's "The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald" entitled "Too Many Oswalds."  In her renowned book "Accessories After the Fact" Sylvia Meagher had pages and pages under the heading "Two Oswalds."

Two YouTube movies by “MrChrillemannen,”presenting John Armstrong interviews with accompanying graphics, have been viewed more than 700,000 times!

Captain Westbrook, officer Tippit and Oswald's double

and

Who impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald?

John’s work has spawned, not counting “The Other Oswald,” which is somewhat different, at least four different books in recent years.

The JFK Assassination and the Uncensored Story of the Two Oswalds

 The Two Oswalds

From an Amazon review: “I'd read a good chunk of Armstrong's Harvey and Lee, but Shannan provided clarity for me on the matter of Marguerite Oswald in particular and the whole thesis in general. So much easier to read this digest than the master's unedited tome.”

DOPPELGANGER: The Legend of Lee Harvey Oswald

Dr. Schwimmer’s best-seller is already in it’s fifth edition.

From the publisher’s blurb: “More than 300 sources, including many sworn testimonies & affidavits, were consulted, as well as John Armstrong’s massive research project HARVEY AND LEE. One fact led to another, until a coherent picture began to emerge from the immense pile of puzzle pieces…. That picture includes the background of Harvey as a juvenile immigrant fluent in Russian, and the creation of the second ‘Lee Harvey Oswald’ and the second ‘Marguerite Oswald.’ The picture continues with the recruitment of both Lee Oswald and Harvey Oswald by the ONI and the CIA, followed by Harvey’s assumption of Lee’s identity, his ‘defection’ to Russia, and Lee’s involvement with the Cuban revolution and the CIA..…”

Mistaken Identity

From the publisher’s blurb:  "New forensic and evidentiary material not published, proves that two individuals known as "Lee Harvey Oswald" enlisted in the U.S. Marines in 1956 using the same birth certificate. Recent genealogical research identifies them as second cousins through intermarriage of second-generation French families in New Orleans. It created a nightmare of identity for the FBI." The Two Oswalds

A fourth major book including much information on the two Oswald's was just published by our forum's own Dr. James Norwood.  It is entitled, FORMER PEOPLE: John F. Kennedy, Nikita Khruschev, and Lee Harvey Oswald at a Crossroads in History. The last chapter, the longest in the book, is called "Turning Points in Understanding a Former Person: The Two Oswalds."

When people here tell you "Harvey and Lee" has all been debunked and that nobody believes it, don't believe them.

21 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

You have a very different definition of "evidence" than many people who have been studying this case for generations, which is borne out by the fact that the research community almost unanimously rejects the idiotic "Harvey and Lee" theory.

19 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Well, there you have it, folks. “Harvey and Lee” - a theory that there were two distinct Lee Harvey Oswalds (and Marguerite Oswald’s) who were secret government spies for a decade - is not far-fetched, according to Sandy Larsen.

PLEASE DO NOT CLICK THE LINK BELOW!!

HarveyandLee.net

Yes, I meant to say why didn't the two men watch more of the *aftermath* of the shooting.  Vicki Adams told the WC she and Styles arrived at the bottom of the stairs "no longer than a minute at the most" after the shots.  And she saw Shelley and Lovelady standing there.

Both men's stories changed over time.  Here's how John A. summarized it on our website:

Following is a sequential list that shows how Shelley and Lovelady repeatedly changed their statements.
 

Billy Lovelady

DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63:  "After [the shooting] was over WE WENT BACK INTO THE BUILDING...."

FBI Report, 11/22/63:   "....immediately after hearing the shots [LOVELADY] and SHELLEY STARTED RUNNING TOWARDS THE PRESIDENTIAL CAR, but it sped away.... [They] then returned to the [TSBD]...."

FBI Statement, 3/19/64: "....following the shooting, I RAN TOWARD THE SPOT WHERE PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S CAR HAD STOPPED. William Shelley and myself STAYED IN THAT AREA FOR APPROXIMATELY FIVE MINUTES when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."

WC Deposition, 4/7/64:  "... ABOUT THREE MINUTES AFTER THE SHOTS, Gloria Calvery arrived. After speaking with her, [WE] WALKED QUICKLY TO THE RAILROAD TRACKS, and then entered the west door of the TSBD."

NOTE: WC Attorney Joseph Ball asked Lovelady "After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building.... Who did you see in the first floor?" Lovelady answered,  "I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie." It is important to understand that Victoria Adams' name hadn't been previously mentioned during Lovelady's testimony, yet Lovelady somehow knew her name and knew that he was supposed to have seen her on the first floor. It appears that Lovelady was interviewed and coached prior to giving testimony to the WC.

 HSCA Testimony:  Lovelady told the HSCA that he DID NOT RETURN TO THE BUILDING FOR 25 MINUTES
 

 Bill Shelley

DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63:  "I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into [Gloria Calvery].... I WENT BACK TO THE BUILDING and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened."

FBI Statement, 3/18/64:  "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yard just west of the building and RETURNED THRU THE WEST SIDE OF THE BUILDING ABOUT 10 MINUTES LATER."

WC Deposition, 4/7/64:  "About three or four minutes after the shots, Gloria Calvery arrived. Billy Lovelady and I ran across the street to the concrete island and stopped for a minute. We then WALKED TO THE FIRST RAILROAD TRACK AND WATCHED THEM SEARCHING FOR A WHILE, after which we entered the west door of the TSBD."

Way back in 1966, Vicki Adams told Mort Sahl and Mark Lane that Shelly and Lovelady WERE BY the landing of the back steps of the TSBD on the first floor immediately after JFK was shot.  Why would these two men not watch an American President go right by their building????

The whole Barry Ernst thing is wrong!!

Listen to it all right HERE, on Len Osanic's Black Op Radi0!!! Start at the 40 minute mark to hear Vicki say Shelly and Lovelady were standing at the bottom of the rear staircase, which, by the way, is close to the electrical terminal that surely would have turned the lights out in the TSBD and stopped the elevators.  Just a coincidence, eh?

Thanks, Michael,

No WC apologist has yet explained how Officer Tippit was declared dead at Methodist Hospital in Dallas at 1:15 but shot dead, according to the Warren Commission, several minutes later.  Time Travel is REAL, eh?  

As most WC critics know, there is a TON of supporting evidence that Officer Tippit was killed right around 1:06.  The "Oswald" walking from the boarding house at 1026 N. Beckley starting at roughly 1 pm couldn't have done it.  

16 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

I can't see how these tracks will help with timing Tippit's murder. The latest end at 12:46, unless the description is wrong.

I agree with Jim that Bowley's watch is an important timepiece, but Markham's clock is even better. She left at 1:04. It takes less than two minutes to walk the 400 feet from 9th to 10th. She was on her way to catch the 1:12 bus. There was no 1:15 bus. She did this every day. This has been covered so many times it's a prodigy of mental opacity that it has to be constantly reestablished.

Great point about Mrs. Markham!  She was apparently off by a couple of minutes on the bus schedule, but her description of the timing puts her arrival time right at 1:06 or so, matching nicely with all the other evidence.  It's a little hard to understand her convoluted words, but I think she also testified that she thought the time was 1:06 or 1:07 (emphasis added).

    Mr. BALL. You think it was a little after 1?
    Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1.
    Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
    Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.
    Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15?
    Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was.

According to Roger Craig, while he was on the sixth floor of the Book Depository, ".... At that exact moment a Dallas police officer came running up the stairs and advised Capt. Fritz that a policeman had been shot in the Oak Cliff area. I instinctively looked at my watch. The time was 1:06 PM."

16 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

If 1:10 is established as the time of Tippit's death, I think it will have to be by means other that the "1:10"s printed on page 19 of CE 705.  I think they were indeed just typos--actually altering that page would have entailed also altering page 18, at least, and it doesn't seem to have suffered any emendations.  As I say, 1:10, though, would be preferable to me, too, with my scenario re Oswald on the bus to Marsalis arriving there about 1:20.  Even further outside the margin for error...

That said, I have found the first full-length DPD transcription of the logs, the Sawyer Exhibits, as transcribed by DPD Sgt. Henslee, to be fraudulent, at least at key points.  However, like 705, it also has "1:19" (on page 395) for "What's that address on Jefferson?", etc., and down to "This officer on 10th..."  That transcription was done on 12/3/63.  

Right now, I'm working on a comparison of early Tom Alyea statements to later ones.  But after that, maybe I could take up the taping project with Michael.  I assume that the resultant tapes would be ordered directly from him rather than go through the extra step of having them sent to me first.  And we'd have to know how many tapes to make.  And what kind of packaging should I do for the tape I send him?  I've had packages damaged in transit before!

Again, Temple Ford Bowley’s affidavit said, “I stopped my car and got out to the scene. I looked at my watch and it said 1:10 pm. Several people were at the scene.  When I got there the first thing I did was try to help the officer.  He appeared beyond help to me.”

Bowley and Ted Callaway helped load Tippit’s body into the ambulance, which drove to the Methodist hospital.  Ambulance driver Clayton Butler told the HSCA, "I was on the scene one minute or less. From the time we received the call in our dispatch office until Officer Tippit was pronounced dead at Methodist Hospital was approximately four minutes."

Tippit was pronounced dead by Dr. Richard Liquori at 1:15 pm, which within a minute or so matches a 1:10 to 1:11 arrival at 10th and Patton by Butler.  Although he overstruck the time on his report,  it appears that R.A. Davenport confirmed the 1:15 time of death.  This timeline is entirely consistent with the 1:10 time stamps on CE 705 (the original DPD transcripts), not the fraudulent timestamps on the FBI version.  Those fraudulent time stamps would have required time travel to be true.

If I ever get a chance to hear the surviving audio, I’ll listen to it while having printouts of the original DPD transcripts (CE 705) in front of me.   I don't understand why anyone could believe the 1:10 time stamps on the DPD transcripts are "typos."  They're the only ones under consideration here that could possibly be true.  
 

On 1/3/2024 at 4:45 PM, Donald Willis said:

I'm open to the prospect of Tippit having been shot earlier than 1:15.  It would help my own timeline for Oswald's  arrival in Oak Cliff.  Heaven and earth (or at least earth, or parts of Dallas) were moved to discredit McWatters' original affidavit, in which McW has O on the bus all the way to Marsalis, in Oak Cliff.  Why would DPD discredit McW unless that meant that O got to Oak C too late to have shot Tippit?  Yes, this eliminates Whaley from the picture, and puts O's return to the boarding house forward maybe 20 minutes.  

Thanks for being open-minded enough to consider seriously our revised timeline for the Tippit shooting.  Would you agree that, if a time for the attack is established at 1:10 pm or some seconds earlier, the most logical conclusion is that the time stamps for the original DPD radio radio transcript (CE 705) were genuine and that the version submitted to the WC by the FBI (CE 1974) was/is most likely fraudulent?

This does far more than merely put additional pressure on the whole WC Oswald/Tippit saga.  It points to, yet again, treachery by the FBI.  John A. has taught me over the decades how to look for signs of evidence tampering in this case.  Much of it seems to have been committed by the FBI, and under close examination it was often surprisingly crude.

For example, alleged W-2 forms from three different companies in New Orleans supposedly saved by LHO from his teen-age years after travel all over the world in the USMC and his stay in Russia, were, according to IBM font specialist Dawn Stanford, probably typed on the same machine, with what she told me was an unusual type font.

As another simple example, the FBI apparently completely invented the U.S. Postal Money Order Oswald allegedly used to purchase the magic rifle that shot the magic bullet in Dealey Plaza.  Despite pushback from WC fans, this forum's Sandy Larsen some years ago proved that Postal Money Orders were required to have bank endorsements according to 1963 Postal regulations.  But, of course, none were present on the apparently undeposited, uncashed money order.

There are many more examples indicating, at least to me, that regular folks like us can see through much of the fraudulent evidence by careful examination.  Which brings me to those audio tapes you mentioned.

Even if they are fourth generation copies with no chain-of-evidence info whatsoever, they still could be of value.  My bet is that if your memory is correct about the 1:16 time stamps, careful examination of the COMPLETE recordings will uncover evidence of alteration.

How  about taking up Michael  Kalin’s kind offer to produce duplicates of your cassettes on his equipment?  There would be a little expense here, postage, tapes, and especially maximum Postal INSURANCE, but I’d certainly be willing to help defray costs.  Hope you’ll seriously consider Michael’s request.
 

12 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

i might have been able to help you out there.  I had two copies of the tapes, but the one I started using again today started coming out of its cassette.  So now I have only one.  And my recorder is breaking down too--it won't fast forward or rewind... I was lucky my 2nd tape worked, but for how long?  I got both of them from Dave Dix, in Minneapolis, about 25 years ago.  I see that he died in 2007.  He got them from a public library.  All bad news.

Minor:  Bowley's "1:10" County affidavit (not a DPD report) was made out on Dec. 2nd, not that same afternoon.  

All those "1:10" to "1:18" "changes were really just the two dispatcher-noted time changes on the page.  That is, every transmission on page 19 is, yes, in effect, "changed" by those two time changes, including innocuous ones like "What's that address on Jefferson?"  That is, the time of each transmission was not changed, individually--just the dispatcher's time notifications, the two of them.  And if you accept that the two changes on page 19 were not just typos, then Bowley's call to the dispatcher ends at about 1:10 and begins--on page 18, about 1:16.  That is, if actual changes were made on page 19, changes would also have to have been made on page 18, and there's still a "1:16" there.  

Finally, if disk-to-tape-back-to-disk alterations had been made here, why didn't the DPD/SS make alterations in transmissions like the 12:37 "second window from the end" one?  They could have changed "second window" to "end window" and the call number of the cop who sent it ("22") to the number of the cop who falsely claimed to have sent it ("127" I think).  And Sgt. Hill's call from Oak Cliff re an automatic is still there for all to hear...

Thanks for continuing this discussion….

According to the following two documents, Tippit was declared dead at Method Hospital by Dr. Richard Liguori at 1:15 pm (not 1:22). 

How was Tippit declared dead before he was shot?  

Note that R A Davenport reported, “In route met the ambulance carrying the wounded officer to Methodist Hospital.  We assisted in getting the officer to the Emergency Room.” And observed the doctors and nurses trying to bring the Officer back to life.  At 1:15 pm Dr. Richard Liquori pronounced him dead.”

All this happened a minute BEFORE Tippit was shot?  

What makes MUCH more sense is the 1:10 pm time frame noted on those original DPD transcripts (CE 705) and confirmed by  T.F. Bowley, who said he looked at his watch, which read 1:10 pm.

Your info about the sorry state of the audio recordings is appreciated. The voice clips need to be carefully analyzed, and I know of no way to do it.  A shame.
 

1 hour ago, Donald Willis said:

I was excited by this article, at first.  Because I saw on my copy of page 19 of CE 705, two handwritten corrections:  After "10-4, 603 and 602", "1:19" is the first correction--the "0" becomes a "9".   The second correction is on the last line of page19:  "10-4, 605, 1:19" is how it is again corrected, by hand--the "9" over the apparent "0".  Big trouble in Trinity River City...

Fortunately or unfortunately, I have a tape of the radio logs.  And in both instances, the dispatcher clearly says "1:19".  As Rankin guessed, they were, then, apparently just typographical errors.  If David Von Pein had done a little research, then, he could have eschewed his usual All Arrows Point to Oswald at 10th & Patton pontificating and cut to the chase.  I still firmly believe--based mainly on the treatment of witnesses WW Scoggins and Cecil McWatters and, lesserly, Mrs M & the Davises--that Oswald did not shoot Tippit.    (JFK is another matter.)

I'm afraid the only way out (or in) on this particular (radio log) evidence would be to show that the logs themselves were doctored, and I'm afraid, again, that the actual logs (not the transcriptions) are, I believe, about the only trustworthy pieces of evidence re 11/22/63...

 

Thanks for the specific reply, Mr. Willis.  You raise an interesting point, so let's look at a few brief excerpts from John's article: 

In early December the Secret Service, Dallas Police and FBI agents began listening to the original vinyl dictabelt and vinyl disc recordings, but their attention was focused events and situations related to the assassination of President Kennedy, and was not focused on the murder of Officer Tippit.

...

In early 1964 James Bowles made a tape recorded copiy of channel 1 and channel 2. Bowles kept one copy for himself and gave one copy to the FBI. FBI personnel listened to the DPD recordings and likely made transcripts of conversations from both channel 1 and channel 2. It seems that little attention, if any, was given to the Tippit murder.

...

After the Secret Service gave the vinyl dictabelts and vinyl disks to the FBI we know they were copied onto a tape recorder. A tape recording could be played over and over without degradation, whereas the vinyl dictabelts and vinyl disks were degraded when played over and over. Changes cannot be made to the vinyl dictabelts or disks. However, if conversations from the vinyl belts and vinyl disks are recorded onto a tape recorder, changes to the new tape can be easily deleted and added. The new tape, with alterations, can the be played back onto new vinyl belts and new vinyl disks. 

If it seems a stretch that the FBI would go to such lengths to alter the original dictabelts/disks, consider how much evidence there is that Tippit was shot right around 1:10 pm. More from John's article:

Two minutes later, at 1:10 PM, Mr. Temple Bowley arrived on site and grabbed the microphone from Benavides. Bowley was able to report the shooting of a police officer to the police dispatcher, which was recorded by the vinyl dictabelts from channel 1.

Later that afternoon Bowley gave a statement to the Dallas Police and said that when he arrived at the scene he, "looked at my watch and it said 1:10 PM." Bowley's watch and the recording made by the police Dictabelt machine reported the time of Bowley's contact with the police dispatcher as 1:10 PM.

Are all the following 1:10 entries supposed to be typographical errors?  Notice how all the original Dallas police transcripts (CE 705) indicate 1:10 pm, while the revised FBI transcripts report a 1:18 time.  Again from John's article:

1) The original Dallas police transcript (CE 705) shows the dispatcher's contact with Dudley Hughes ambulance 602-code 5 at 1:10 PM.  The revised FBI report (CE 1974) changed the dispatcher's contact with Dudley Hughes at 1:18 P.M.

2) The original Dallas police transcript  (CE 705) shows the dispatcher's contact with Baylor ambulance, 603-code 5, at 1:10 PM. The revised FBI report (CE 1974)  changed the dispatcher’s contact with Baylor to 1:18 PM.

3) The original Dallas police transcript (CE 705) shows the dispatcher's contact with Dudley Hughes' ambulance code 602-code 6 arrival time at 10th & Patton at 1:10 PM. The revised FBI report (CE 1974)  changed the dispatchers contact with Dudley Hughes to 1:18 PM.

4) The original Dallas police transcript (CE 705) shows the dispatcher's contact with the Dudley Hughes and with the Baylor ambulance at 1:10 PM. The revised FBI transcript report (CE 1974) changed the dispatchers contact to 1:18 PM.

5) The original Dallas police transcript shows the dispatcher's contact with the Dudley Hughes ambulance 602-code 6 (out at destination) at 1:10 P.M. The revised FBI transcript report changed the dispatchers contact with Dudley Hughes to 1:18 PM.

6) The original Dallas police transcript shows the dispatcher's contact with ambulance 605-code 5 (en route) at 1:10 PM. The revised FBI transcript report changed the dispatchers contact with ambulance 605 from 1:10 PM to 1:18 PM.

7) The original Dallas police transcript (CE 705) shows the dispatcher's contact with ambulance 605-code 5 (en route) at 1:10 PM. The revised FBI transcript report (CE 1974) changed the dispatcher’s contact with ambulance 605-code 5 from 1:10 PM to 1:19 PM.

😎 The original Dallas police transcript (CE 705) shows the dispatcher's contact with Dudley Hughes ambulance 602 at 1:10 PM. Ambulance driver Jason Butler tells the dispatcher, “from out here on 10th St., 500 block. This police officer’s just shot. I think he’s dead.” The revised FBI transcript report (CE1974) changed the dispatchers contact with Dudley Hughes from 1:10 PM to 1:19 P.M.

Thanks again for the reply.  I would love to listen to the audio of the DPD conversations.  Do you know a way that I could do that?