Jim Hargrove
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Posts posted by Jim Hargrove
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17 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:
We've had numerous H&L threads on this forum since I joined several years ago and I don't recall any debunking of what Jim H. has posted. And I was skeptical of the H&L theory early on.
Everybody makes mistakes and it probably has been pointed out where Jim H. or John Armstrong has made a mistake. (I know I've made my own.) But almost everything that Jim has posted still stands.
Thanks again, Sandy. The only attempts at H&L debunking I’ve seen here are comprised of links to other places and the claim that it’s all solved “over there.” As you well know, nothing significant about H&L has been disproved.
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17 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:
Why do you think the CIA had no interest in any doppelganger schemes? What makes you the authority on that?
I'll bet that, had the illegal and unethical MK-Ultra schemes not been exposed, you would be claiming them to be "tin-foil-hat wearing" material that should be ignored.
I'll bet that, had the domestic terrorism plans of Operation Northwoods not been exposed, you would be claiming them to be "tin-foil-hat wearing" material that should be ignored.
Thank goodness we have Jim Hargrove to continue gathering and exposing evidence for the CIA's Oswald Project doppelganger scheme which clearly took place.
Thanks, Sandy. Your support and contributions to two Oswald research are much appreciated.
Isn’t it remarkable that the H&L critics active here never, ever debate the H&L evidence right here on the JFK assassination debate section of the Education Forum. The critics simply post links and pretend that everything has been debunked somewhere else. Why are they afraid to discuss the EVIDENCE that has been presented over the years?
We’re hosting a big family reunion next week and I’ll probably not participate here during that time, so that should give the H&L critics time to post literally hundreds of links and pretend this has all been solved before. As you know, it hasn’t.
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On 5/25/2022 at 6:03 AM, Jim Hargrove said:
Wow, if Jeremy Bojczuk ever made these concessions before, I must have missed it.
3 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:Both the links you provide are to the website 22November1963.org.uk, a site for which Google makes the following warning: “The connection to 22november1963.org.uk is not secure. You are seeing this warning because this site does not support HTTPS. Learn more.”
As I suspected, despite nearly a thousand posts on the Ed Forum, you have never before conceded here that “Oswald appears to have had connections with one or more US intelligence agencies, and that this connection may well have been utilised in the JFK assassination,” and that “Oswald was probably impersonated in the run-up to the assassination.”
I knew you hadn’t said anything about the above here because I’ve been waiting for years to make the following observation: “Jeremy knows full well that Oswald was impersonated, and so we are only arguing about how long, and how many times, he was impersonated.” This distinction causes him to say we “wear tin foil hats” and all sorts of insults like that.
This gives the impression that Jeremy Bojczuk is far, far more interested in discrediting Harvey and Lee than in criticizing the Warren Commission and all the incorrect conclusions it reached.
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15 hours ago, John Butler said:
He would not have to be there long. I think the U2 was shot down on May 1, 1960. Harvey went to Minsk about January 13, 1960. Here's where I go off the beaten path. He may have been there more than once. That would be necessary to be part of Marina's "I had two husbands". Which I actually think is a reality rather than just a mistake in grammar on Marina's part.
Yeah, the U2 situation was REALLY interesting. More on that below. Marina's comment about "two husbands" is tantalizing, but I don't think she knew about LEE, only HARVEY. That's just an opinion, I suppose, and I do appreciate your thinking out of the box. I was so convinced by John A's book that I rarely stray from his conclusions, but there is no reason for you to do that.
15 hours ago, John Butler said:Now, what I have just said is entirely speculation except for Lee Oswald's knowledge of the U2 and radar. It was superior to Harvey's knowledge. While Lee was at Atsugi with the U2 people in the barracks, and in the "bubble" doing radar work, Harvey was AWOL in New Orleans. This is one of the reasons I think Lee could have been in Russia.
One of the ingenious things about the Oswald project, to me, was that HARVEY could be dangled in front of the Soviets bragging about his time in the U2 radar bubble , when, in fact, he was never there and had little information to share about it. I know Francis Gary Powers blamed Oswald for the shoot down, but he, of course, didn't know the full story.
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2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:
It's difficult to get a straight answer out of Jim when he's on the ropes, ins't it?
Hey, I’m not the one making all the concessions you made on the first article on this page.
And just to let you know, I’m going to continue posting H&L evidence right here until someone debunks it right here or Ed Forum administrators tell me to stop. Posting hundreds of links to other sites and claiming it has all been debunked there won’t work. Everyone makes mistakes from time to time, but very little of John A’s basic research has ever been debunked, despite your claims otherwise.
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2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:
What Jim needs to do is tell us why anyone in their right mind would have set up something as complex and unnecessary as a long-term double-doppelganger project when a far simpler alternative was available.
“Right mind… ” SERIOUSLY?
I brought up the CIA’s MKULTRA project on the previous page to point out how ridiculous it is to try to analyze the thought processes of members of American Intel who established and maintained the Oswald project. The people who tortured and poisoned so many Americans clearly didn’t think like us. To speculate on their motives to establish a long-term impersonation, beyond the obvious advantages of total deniability, seems pointless. But total deniability was useful throughout the existence of the Oswald project. To pick just one example, LHO couldn’t have been at Bolton Ford because he was Russia at the time. Perfect.
Finally, as I’ve said before, the use of lookalikes and impostors is common in spycraft. Antonio and Patricio DeLaGuardia, top spies for Cuba, were twin brothers. Starting in the 1950s, Russian spy Konon Molody assumed the identity of Gordon Lonsdale, after being schooled in Berkley to learn English and American customs. Starting in the 1980s, Canadian Michael Ross married an Israeli woman, joined the Mossad, and assumed at least six different identities, one lasting seven years, so he could gather intelligence. Even Mata Hari was said to have used a stage double so she could do other things. There are other examples.
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2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:
I'd agree that Oswald appears to have had connections with one or more US intelligence agencies, and that this connection may well have been utilised in the JFK assassination. I'd also agree that Oswald was probably impersonated in the run-up to the assassination.
Wow, if Jeremy Bojczuk ever made these concessions before, I must have missed it. It is amazing to me that we can agree that, in Jeremy's words, “Oswald appears to have had connections with one or more US intelligence agencies, and that this connection may well have been utilised in the JFK assassination,” and that “Oswald was probably impersonated in the run-up to the assassination.”
I would state these facts with a little more certainty, but this strikes me as real progress and is, frankly, more important to me than the question of how long the Oswald impersonations existed.
It’s just that the EVIDENCE shows a long term impersonation dating back to a decade or so before the JFK assassination. When I bring up evidence for this, Mr. Bojczuk simply claims it has all been discussed before and then provides links to, mostly, Greg Parker’s website, claiming all has been debunked there.
But the evidence hasn’t been debunked at Parker’s site or here or anywhere else. Ever. If you don’t believe it, go to the links Mr. B. provides, read them, and come back here and list their arguments. You will soon see that neither Greg Parker nor anyone else has debunked the basic facts that John A. discovered. I will continue to post highlights of the evidence for two Oswalds dating back to the 1950s here until someone debunks it here or I’m asked to stop by Ed Forum administrators.
If Mr. Bojczuk can debunk this evidence, why wouldn’t he do it here, instead of just claiming someone else has done it for him. No one else has.
And it would be nice if Mr. Bojczuk at least understood the evidence he is trying so hard to debunk. When he writes that I am “claiming that the CIA set up a long-term project involving two pairs of doppelgangers,” he fails to acknowledge that the evidence shows the impersonation preceded the formal creation of the CIA. Personnel at the CIA merely perpetuated it for the Russian “defection” and other intelligence operations and covered up the program’s participation in the JFK assassination.
The claim that it is impossible to determine how children will appear as they grow up is incorrect. For example, take a look at photographs or male movie stars when they were young. It is quite an easy matter to see which child became which adult actor simply by comparing the pictures. As Laura Kittrell told Gaeton Fonzi, the two Oswalds “looked the same… the same general outline and coloring and build….”
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With all his usual insults, Jerry Bojczuk continues to insist there was no reason for the CIA to pick a candidate who already understood the Russian language for a long-term project to prepare him to “defect” to the Soviet Union. In fact, it is obvious that this is exactly what happened. How else could “Lee Harvey Oswald” pass a Russian language exam before he even set foot in Russia?
Oswald got two more questions right than wrong, and got a passing but “poor” grade, in the Russian exam, about the same grade he got in English language exams while in the Marines. As James Norwood wrote on our website:
During his final year in the Marines, Oswald met a woman in California, who was the relative of one of his fellow Marines, Henry J. Roussel, Jr. At the time, Rosaleen Quinn, the Marine’s aunt, was teaching herself Russian through the Berlitz language system and was interested in conversing with Oswald. In her Warren Commission deposition, Quinn asserted that “Oswald spoke Russian well.” [12] When Oswald met Rosaleen Quinn in 1959, he was still in his teens and had completed only the ninth grade. Yet in Henry Roussel’s deposition for the Warren Commission, he stated that he believed Oswald knew both German and Russian. [13] By age nineteen and with no documented exposure to Russian culture, Oswald already had proficiency in one of the most challenging components of an extremely difficult language: conversational Russian.
[12] The Warren Commission Report: Report of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy (Washington, D.C.: United States Government Printing Office, 1964), 685.
[13] Affidavit of Henry J. Roussel Jr. for the Warren Commission (May 25, 1964): http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/roussel.htm. In October, 1963, Oswald allegedly told Texas employment counselor Laurel Kittrell that he was fluent in three languages.
Does Mr. Bojczuk, along with the Warren Commission, want you to believe that Oswald learned Russian, without the benefit of a classroom, teacher or textbook, by reading Russian newspapers and other Russian literature in his barracks in his spare time with a Russian-English dictionary. Here is an image of a Russian-language newspaper printed in San Francisco:
Could you teach yourself this language in your spare time while you were employed full time by the U.S. Marines?
Will Mr. Bojczuk explain how this Oswald learned Russian, or will he merely post a few links and say it is all solved there, and continue with his insults?
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23 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:
Jim,
Yes, I believe that there are occasions in the Lee Harvey Oswald biography where you have two people being in different places at the same time, both claiming to be Lee Harvey Oswald. His Marine records are one, One being in Mexico City while at the same time in Alice, Texas is another. II think you and John have given him the name Harvey, I don't know enough about your thesis to know if a Harvey, calling himself Harvey, appears anywhere.
Harvey Lee Oswald is a third entity. So far, I haven't seen a flesh and blood person that ever appears, saying, "Hi, I'm Harvey Lee Oswald". The closest I've come is the tenant register at 1026 N. Beckley, where the register is signed O.H. Lee.
I've always interpreted that as Oswald, Harvey Lee.
Steve Thomas
Steve,
Yeah, I agree entirely. One possibility, perhaps, is that the Soviet “Harvey Lee Oswald” was some sort of “marked card,” to root out certain people considered undesirable. That is the same argument some people give to the CIA’s “Lee Henry Oswald” cable, which I believe was a direct attempt, along with members of FBI Div. 5, to clear the way for the patsification of "Lee Harvey Oswald" for the JFKA. Otoh, that hardly explains all the non-Soviet references to HLO.
On your question about whether there is evidence that one Oswald ever asked to be called “Harvey,” the answer is yes, going all the way back to his school days. Oddly enough, this same guy, at times, apparently asked NOT to be called Harvey. I can try to dig up more on this if you’re interested.
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23 hours ago, John Butler said:
Jim,
There is a long period of time from March 19, 1959 to January 20, 1961 where there is very little information about Lee Oswald. We assume he was somewhere in the south ranging from Florida to Texas working on anti-Castro projects. But, that is an assumption, Look at David Joseph's Timeline. It has a long series of blanks for this time for Lee Oswald.
John,
You’re exactly right about that, but I still have a hard time believing both LHOs were in the Soviet Union at the same time. For one thing, it would have required the cooperation of the U.S. State Department and Soviet authorities, and I just don’t see that happening. Do you?
Otoh, your list of "indications" about Lee and Russia is interesting, and I've saved it to study some more.
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With his usual attacks using words like “absurd,” “semi-paranoid,” “leeches,” “incoherent,” “tin-foil hat types,” “far-fetched,” and so on, Mr. B. continues to ignore much of the answer I gave him days ago to his hypothetical question asking me to explain the “thinking” of a CIA that, in the very time we are discussing, was engaged in a wide-spread campaign to torture and poison American citizens.
Here is the answer I gave days ago to his hypothetical question:
For the first question above:
To my knowledge, I’ve never been impersonated in my life. How ‘bout you? Strange that there is so much evidence that LHO was impersonated time and time again.
Laura Kittrell met both Oswalds and described their similarities and differences to the HSCA’s Gaeton Fonzi, who wrote:
“She has concluded that the person she saw the last time wasn’t really Oswald but perhaps someone he sent in his place in order to maintain his employment claim. ‘He looked the same,’ she said, ‘the same general outline and coloring and build, but there was something so different in his bearing…..’ She said that although she suspected the fellow might not have been Oswald at the time, she wasn’t sure and she didn’t want to call him a xxxx and create a scene without being sure."
For the second question:
I’ve never bothered to respond to this hypothetical argument despite all the times you have repeated it. Most people know that it is far easier to learn a second or third language as a child, and that is about the only sure way to do so and still speak without a discernible accent. As Sandy Larsen wrote above, “Jeremy apparently knows better than the CIA what their needs are and how they should accomplish their goals. Maybe they'll offer him a job.”
Without giving Russian-speaking Harvey parallel experiences with American-born Lee, how would Harvey respond to the simplest questions from the Soviets. For example:
“Say Comrade. Dis Bo-Re-Gard School you go to, where you eat lunch, eh? First floor, second or third, basement, roof? Where?”
Nothing could be clearer than the fact that “Lee Harvey Oswald” and the entire JFK assassination has all the earmarks of an intelligence operation. Let me repeat a list of reasons to believe this is true for “Lee Harvey Oswald.”
20 Indications the Oswald Project Was Run by the CIA
1. CIA accountant James Wilcott testified that he made payments to an encrypted account for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.” Contemporaneous HSCA notes indicate Wilcott told staffers, but wasn't allowed to say in Executive session, that the cryptonym for the CIA's "Oswald Project" was RX-ZIM.
2. A 1978 CIA memo indicates that a CIA operations officer “had run an agent into the USSR, that man having met a Russian girl and eventually marrying her,” a case very similar to Oswald’s and clearly indicating that the Agency ran a “false defector” program in the 1950s.
3. Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962.
4. Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough all said LHO was associated with the CIA.
5. CIA employee Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA "contact" who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.
6. Kenneth Porter, employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio, apparently left his family to marry (and perhaps monitor) Marina Oswald after LHO’s death.
7. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was put in charge of lying to the HSCA and never told them of his relationship to DRE.
8. For his achievements, Joannides was given a medal by the CIA.
9. FBI took Oswald off the watch list at the same time a CIA cable gave him a clean bill of political health, weeks after Oswald’s New Orleans arrest and less than two months before the assassination.
10. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay, or whatever we call it, reads like a pretty good intelligence report.
11. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots.
12. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear.
13. Even the official cover story of the radar operator near American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story.
14. CIA's Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, and he said that the CIA and the FBI ignored his warnings.
15. LHO always seemed poor, at least until it was time to go “on assignment.” For his Russian adventure, we’re to believe he saved all the money he needed for first class European hotels and private tour guides in Moscow from the non-convertible USMC script he saved. In the summer of 1963, he once again seemed to have enough money to travel abroad to Communist nations.
16. To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter bs....
17. After he “defected” to the Soviet Union in 1959, bragging to U.S. embassy personnel in Moscow that he would tell the Russians everything he knew about U.S. military secrets, he returned to the U.S. without punishment and was then in 1963 given the OK to travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union again!
18. Allen Dulles, the CIA director fired by JFK, and the Warren Commission clearly wanted the truth hidden from the public to protect sources and methods of intelligence agencies such as the CIA. Earl Warren said, “Full disclosure was not possible for reasons of national security.”
19. CIA's Ann Egerter, who worked for J.J. Angleton's Counterintelligence Special Interest Group (CI/SIG), opened a "201" file on Oswald on December 9, 1960. Egerter testified to the HSCA: "We were charged with the investigation of Agency personnel....” When asked if the purpose was to "investigate Agency employees," she answered, "That is correct." When asked, "Would there be any other reason for opening up a file?" she answered, "No, I can't think of one."
20. President Kennedy and the CIA clearly were at war with each other in the weeks immediately before his assassination, as evidenced by Arthur Krock's infamous defense of the Agency in the Oct. 3, 1963 New York Times. It sure looks to me that “Oswald” was the CIA’s pawn.
How do we know that were two U.S. intelligence assets claiming to be “Lee Harvey Oswald?” Because of the EVIDENCE. It is particularly strong while both were in the Marine Corps, where the two Oswalds were prepared for a false defection of one of them. One of many obvious proofs of two LHOs in the marines is this:
While one LHO was in Taiwan (September 14 through October 6 in 1958), the other LHO was in Japan (September 16 through October 6 in 1958). We know this because medical records for NAS Navy 3835 (Naval Hospital) show numerous entries for visits to the hospital by LHO which were recorded on Sept 16, 20, 22, 23, 29, and Oct 6 while the other LHO was in Taiwan.
To see the documents proving this, CLICK HERE and scroll about ¾ of the way down the page.
Mr. B. can insult me as many times as he wishes, but it won’t make this evidence, and much more like it, go away. Hypothetical questions about the CIA’s “thinking” at the time are just a distraction.
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Mr. B. continues to ignore the evidence I presented to him destroying his analysis of Milton Jones. Will he ever respond?
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13 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:
That is how I know that HARVEY quite possible took photos of LEE with him, because he most certainly did take the HERVEY/LEE composite photo.
(Note & Disclaimer: I later discovered that the style of that Russian stamp was very commonly used in European countries. I MAY also have determined that the "Russian" stamp that I've been talking about, may possibly have been issued in some other European country instead of Russia, when HARVEY was traveling to Russia. I probably made a note of my conclusions but I don't know where it is.)
(P.S. It just occurred to me that I should have tried to see if that style of stamp was also used in America around that time. Because if it was, that blows my whole theory.. everything I've written here. Doh! LOL)
Sandy,
Hope you find some time to research this, because it's a fascinating theory. I can try too, but you're probably well ahead of me on this topic.
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Steve,
Your suspicion that the references to Lee Harvey at the Minsk radio plant are just file entries of some sort makes more sense to me than the two Oswalds actually being there at the same time. Otoh, as you suggested in your comment about Laura Kittrell earlier, you do seem to believe there were two people claiming the LHO identity, right?
It always seemed to me that "the woman at the Unemployment office," Laura Kittrell, offered one of the clearest description we have of the two Oswalds. As John A. wrote on our website, "Mrs. Kittrell gave a thirty-page statement to the U.S. Attorney in Dallas. Her statement was hand carried to the Warren Commission by the Secret Service. But her 30-page statement and subsequent 90-page manuscript in which she discusses her interviews of the two Oswalds, were ultimately ignored and suppressed."
Julian Evans told the Warren Commission, "Lee couldn't talk to his mother in a soft voice or a low voice; it was always a very loud. insolent voice, and it seemed like he got to raising his voice all the time, and he didn't seem to care whoheard him or what he said. He had what I would call a foghorn voice, and he didn't seem to make any effort at all to control it. He would just blare out, and it did disturb others around the house ..... You don't see a voice in a kid like that, at 13 years old, very often." [H&L p. 82]
Then note how, years later when Laura Kittrell met a second person claiming to be LHO, she described the second Oswald as follows: “And he had this peculiar way of laughing and talking so that people all over the room could hear him, and Mr. Oswald [the first LHO she met] wasn’t like that at all."
Loud and boisterous hardly describes the Oswald killed by Ruby, but it sure as heck sounds like American-born Lee.
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When he quoted me in the post above this one, Mr. B. again removed the link to my actual answers to his question, which, once again, are here.
Mr. B. endlessly defends an organization that, during the very era we are considering, tortured thousands of unsuspecting people, including children, with mind-altering drugs, electroshocks, sexual abuse, and much more. Here are the first two paragraphs from the Wikipedia article on MKULTRA:
Project MKUltra (or MK-Ultra)[a] was the code name of an illegal human experimentation program designed and undertaken by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).[1][2][3] The experiments were intended to develop procedures and identify drugs such as LSD that could be used in interrogations to weaken individuals and force confessions through brainwashing and psychological torture. MKUltra used numerous methods to manipulate its subjects' mental states and brain functions, such as the covert administration of high doses of psychoactive drugs (especially LSD) and other chemicals, electroshocks,[4] hypnosis,[5][6] sensory deprivation, isolation, and verbal and sexual abuse, in addition to other forms of torture.[7][8]
MKUltra was preceded by two drug-related experiments, Project Bluebird and Project Artichoke.[9][10] It began in 1953, was reduced in scope in 1964 and 1967, and was halted in 1973. It was organized through the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence and coordinated with the United States Army Biological Warfare Laboratories.[11] The program engaged in illegal activities,[12][13][14] including the use of U.S. and Canadian citizens as unwitting test subjects.[12]: 74 [15][16][17] MKUltra's scope was broad, with activities carried out under the guise of research at more than 80 institutions, including colleges and universities, hospitals, prisons, and pharmaceutical companies.[18] The CIA operated using front organizations, although some top officials at these institutions were aware of the CIA's involvement.[19]
Mr. B. wants me to explain the “thinking” that went on at the CIA in the 1950s and 1960s? Take a hike! Or, better yet, follow the EVIDENCE and stop trying to sweep it all under the carpet.
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1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:
Jim,
CE 985 page 111
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=444&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=447&tab=page
On page 433 of that CE Exhibit (CE 985), it says that “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald was hired as a regulator at the Minsk Radio Plant on January 13, 1960.
"Comrade" Lee Harvey Oswald is employed January 1, 1960 as an assembler.
"Citizen" Harvey Lee Oswald is hired two weeks later on January 13, 1960 as a regulator.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&relPageId=111&search=Dobrynin_December%2011,%201963
p. 111.
In this letter, it says that Harvey Lee Oswald's request for USSR Citizenship was denied. It doesn't say when he applied for that citizenship, but the character reference memo from the Minsk Radio factory in CE 985, p. 433 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=447&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22 is dated December 11, 1961 and refers to “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald.
On January 4, 1960, Lee Harvey Oswald applied for a non-citizen alien identity card. In the space for the names of relatives living abroad, he listed his mother, Margaret living at 3124 W. 5th. St. in Fort Worth. No brother is listed. Four photographs are provided. (Photos not included in the documents)
This document spells out the details of a non-citizen identity card (Series P-311479)
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10210-10003.pdf
One week later, on January 11, 1960 he submitted an application for employment at the Minsk Radio and TV plant. On his application, he wrote that his parents were dead, and he had no brothers or sisters.
If he didn’t apply for the job until January 11th, how could there be a Certificate of Employment dated January 1st?
On January 4, 1961 he applied for an extension of his non-citizen alien identity card. In the space for the names of relatives living abroad, this space is left blank. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=430&tab=page
This ID card was extended to January 4, 1962.
If Lee Harvey Oswald never applied for Soviet Citizenship, whose application for Citizenship was denied?
Steve Thomas
Wow, Steve! I finally see what you’re talking about in the Russian docs. Awesome!
It’s still hard for me to believe the Soviets would have allowed Harvey Lee Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald to work at the radio factory, but the evidence you have shown is compelling… and I know it extends far beyond Minsk.
Could this have been a way the Minsk Soviets shined a spotlight on two Oswalds? Why on earth would they both be there?
This is simply incredible, and I must thank you again for your work on this!
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Thanks, Sandy.
Mr. B. ignores almost everything I said in answer to his hypothetical question. My actual answers are here.
On top of that, he continues to ignore the evidence I presented to him destroying his analysis of Milton Jones. Will he ever respond?
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9 hours ago, John Butler said:
From Marina's testimony it is Harvey she was describing as Alec or Alek who could speak Russian so well she thought he was a Baltic native with a Polish accent and not an American.
John,
Both you and Steve Thomas apparently see something in the Minsk radio report that seems improbable, at least to me. On the other hand, it’s hard to deny something weird is going on from the sheer number of these Harvey Lee Oswald references.
For the life of me, despite your photo analysis, I don’t see much evidence that both Oswalds were in the Soviet Union in the early 1960s. Wish I could trust the photographic record more. Recall that there are all kinds of incidents involving LHO in America during this very period. The Bolton Ford incident, for example, occurred on 1/20/1961.
Marina’s testimony about Harvey’s Russian language skill is tricky because, I think, she was hiding her English fluency in the same way Harvey was hiding his skills at the Russian language. Recall that Robert Webster indicated to Dick Russell that Marina spoke good English, despite a heavy accent, when he met her.
On our website, James Norwood described how Norman Mailer, in Oswald’s Tale, failed to even consider what language Marina and LHO spoke when they met.
In Oswald’s Tale, Mailer provides transcripts of Oswald in conversation with Marina, as recorded by the KGB. In this dialogue, the Marxist sympathizer Oswald is trying to convince his skeptical wife of the virtues of capitalism in America—making money, unlimited material advantages, ownership of property, high standard of living. But in the transcripts, Mailer fails to disclose or even take an interest in whether the conversations were being spoken in English or Russian. -
5 hours ago, John Butler said:
Is John Newman saying the original Lee Harvey Oswald may have been in Russia? I read "Not at all" as the two are different and there was a possibility that Lee Oswald was in Russia.
And, I am glad to see he has weakened his position on Oswald in Mexico City to "Maybe it's him, maybe it's not". IMO, that's better than saying one is following the paper trail of Oswald in Mexico City and thinking Oswald was actually there. If I have misread early Newman than I will stand corrected.
I read it as both men questioning whether the Oswald in Russia was the same Oswald shot by Ruby. I hadn’t looked at this in several years, and the minute I saw it again I thought of your work. Interesting.
Most serious researchers strongly suspect there is a big problem with the Official Biography of LHO, such as what is found in the Warren Report. There is just so much evidence that doesn’t fit what we’ve been told.
And, of course, there are people working hard to sweep all that evidence under the carpet and make it seem to go away.
I couldn’t agree with you more about Dr. Newman’s change of mind about the Mexico City Oswald.
5 hours ago, Dan Rice said:Did she really call her husband (LHO) Alek?
I think so, but I’m not sure of the spelling (Alec vs. Alek) and such. In her Warren Commission testimony, Marina said:
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know by what name Lee Oswald was introduced to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Everyone there called him Alec, at his place of work, because Lee is an unusual, cumbersome name. For Russians it was easier--this was easier.
Mr. RANKIN. Is Alec a name close to Lee, as far as the Russian language is concerned?
Mrs. OSWALD. A little. Somewhat similar.It’s important to remember, though, that there were translators handling her testimony.
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Steve,
I couldn't agree with you more about Laura Kittrell meeting the two Oswalds. John A. has a ton of material on and from her on his Baylor University site. On the Minsk radio plant report, are we really to believe that a Harvey Lee and a Lee Harvey were both hired as regulators in the experimental shop? Seems more likely it was just a transposition error, at least in this case.
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Peter Dale Scott and John Newman on two Oswalds from the March 3, 2018 “Spy War” conference (emphasis added by me):
Above clip from 3 March, 2018 "Spy Wars" Conference, San Francisco, Part 2.
Speakers in this clip are:
Bill Simpich--BS
Peter Dale Scott – PDS
John Newman – JNAt approximately the 37:12 mark in the YouTube clip above:
BS: There’s two different genuses of false phone calls.
PDS: Yeah, exactly. One was a call with a lie in it, the other was an alleged call that did not, in fact, take place.
JN: The Tuesday call didn’t take place?
PDS: No, the Tuesday call did take place by a man, I’m sure, was not the Oswald we think of….
JN: Right
PDS: ... and then, by the way… this is just a question… are you absolutely convinced that the man who was “Lee Harvey Oswald” in Russia was, in fact, the man picked up in Dallas in 1963?
JN: Not at all. And I’ve gone over to the view that in Mexico City that, maybe it’s him, maybe it’s not. So I’m not going to be dogmatic about it. He could have been there and impersonated or could have been not there at all.
PDS: ... There is a fragment of a release that says that the man who made the phone calls spoke horrible Russian AND English! So, I do not think that was the man in Dallas…. This is completely anecdotal but I once had an hour long conversation with Marina where I was trying my hardest not to bring up the assassination. We were talking about literature and I said did she like Henry James and she said she had never heard of Henry James, who was Henry James and I said, “Oh, he’s sort of like the American Turgenev. And she said, “Oh, Turgenev, Alek really loved Turgenev.” The man who checked out books from the New Orleans Public Library was not a lover of Turgenev. -
13 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:
And she never met Lee?
I think every effort would have been made to prevent Marina from meeting Lee.
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On 5/21/2022 at 4:27 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:
Here are those two questions again:
- Does Jim accept that someone can be impersonated without the use of doppelgangers?
- What were the reasons for setting up a complex long-term impersonation project involving two pairs of doppelgangers when there was no need to do so?
For the first question above:
To my knowledge, I’ve never been impersonated in my life. How ‘bout you? Strange that there is so much evidence that LHO was impersonated time and time again.
Laura Kittrell met both Oswalds and described their similarities and differences to the HSCA’s Gaeton Fonzi, who wrote:
“She has concluded that the person she saw the last time wasn’t really Oswald but perhaps someone he sent in his place in order to maintain his employment claim. ‘He looked the same,’ she said, ‘the same general outline and coloring and build, but there was something so different in his bearing…..’ She said that although she suspected the fellow might not have been Oswald at the time, she wasn’t sure and she didn’t want to call him a xxxx and create a scene without being sure."
For the second question:
I’ve never bothered to respond to this hypothetical argument despite all the times you have repeated it. Most people know that it is far easier to learn a second or third language as a child, and that is about the only sure way to do so and still speak without a discernible accent. As Sandy Larsen wrote above, “Jeremy apparently knows better than the CIA what their needs are and how they should accomplish their goals. Maybe they'll offer him a job.”
Without giving Russian-speaking Harvey parallel experiences with American-born Lee, how would Harvey respond to the simplest questions from the Soviets. For example:
“Say Comrade. Dis Bo-Re-Gard School you go to, where you eat lunch, eh? First floor, second or third, basement, roof? Where?”
Will Mr. B ever answer my posts on his arguments about Milton Jones?
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6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:
I agree with you Jim that the documents showing both the FBI and CIA taking their attention off of Oswald at the same time, not long before the assassination, is fairly strong evidence that he was being set up for the assassination.
I also agree that the mole hunt business distracts from that fact. But you don't really believe that that is the intention the mole-hunt business proponents, do you?
Sandy,
I’ll freely confess that I’m suspicious as all heck of anyone who thinks it is more important to trace the specifics of what may have been a CIA mole hunt nearly 60 years ago than it is to understand why elements of the CIA and the FBI at least appeared to be coordinating efforts to set up a patsy for the murder of JFK.
Which came first, the bus or the Rambler?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Oh, brother. Jeremy Bojczuk declares that he can argue about Stripling School in this thread, but no one else can.
I’ll make this short, but Mr. Bojczuk wants readers to believe that the linked post “destroyed” the enormous amount of EVIDENCE that one of the LHOs attended Stripling School in Texas at the very same time the other LHO attended Beauregard School in New Orleans.
Here is a quick synopsis of the EVIDENCE that one LHO attended Stripling, EVIDENCE that includes at least six articles from the local newspaper covering Stripling School, filmed EVIDENCE from the assistant principal of Stripling School and a Stripling School student, and more. Mr. Bojczuk wants readers to believe all this evidence has been “destroyed”:
This 1959 Fort Worth Star-Telegram article indicates LHO attended Stripling, but this, allegedly, is wrong.
This 1962 Fort Worth Star-Telegram article indicates LHO attended Stripling, but this, allegedly, is wrong.
Published two days after the assassination of JFK, this Fort Worth Star-Telegram article reported: “He attended Stripling Junior High School and Arlington Heights High School before joining the Marines.” But this, allegedly, is wrong.
In his 1964 Warren Commission testimony, Robert Oswald said that LHO attended Stripling School, but he, allegedly, was wrong.
This May 11, 2002 Fort Worth Star-Telegram article indicated that “a boy walked to Stripling from a home nearby. His mother was living in a home behind the school on Thomas Place by 1963, when the world learned the name Lee Harvey Oswald.” This too, allegedly, was wrong.
A recent article from the Fort Worth Star-Telegram article from 2017 also indicates LHO attended Stripling, but this too, allegedly, was wrong.
Way back on December 27, 1993, John Armstrong wrote to Ricardo Galindo, the then current principal of Stripling School, asking if there were any records for Lee Harvey Oswald's attendance the school. Mr. Galindo telephoned John back and said that, although there were no records, it was “common knowledge” that LHO had attended the school. [Harvey and Lee, p. 97]. Mr. Galindo, allegedly was wrong.
In this 1997 interview, Stripling Student Fran Schubert watched LHO walk from the school to his house at 2220 Thomas Place just across the street from Stripling School. She too, allegedly, was wrong.
In a 1997 interview, the assistant principal of Stripling School described how he met two FBI agents at Stripling less than 24 hours after the assassination and gave them the records for LHO. Jeremy Bojczuk wants you to believe that Frank Kudlaty, who went on to become the Superintendent of Schools for Waco, Texas, was either mistaken (about his entire story of meeting FBI agents hours after the assassination) or lying.
Mr. Bojczuk wants readers to believe that all this evidence was "destroyed" by the post he linked.