Jim Hargrove

8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

For me, it's the combination of height, but also the weight difference that makes it suspicious.

How you go from "slender" to 165 lbs is problematic.

Yeah.  Part of the confusion may be because there were probably more people at the Tippit scene than most people realize.  Acquilla Clemens told Mark Lane and Vince Salandria that there were two men involved in the shooting who hurried off in different directions.  On p. 11 of the January 1968 edition of Playboy magazine, a writer indicated that he was a witness to the shooting and that he saw two men leaving the scene in different directions.

Doris Holan from the second floor of her building was in a position to look down the very narrow driveway blocked by Tippit’s car and she said she saw another police car there (we think #207).  Mrs. Holan said she saw a man get out of the squad car and walk toward the dying Tippit. Our bet is that was Capt. Westbrook.

Virginia Davis saw a man cutting across her lawn and throw two empty shell casings onto the ground. She went outside to see what had happened.  When Belin asked her, “Did police come out there?” she answered, “Yes, they was already there.”  We think she saw Ken Croy, at the scene in an impossibly short time.

Multiple players, possible involvement by two cops, just the type of thing to confuse witnesses and scare others away from telling the full story. 

It does sound like Calloway’s description.  The 5’11” height matches Marine Corps records for, we think, American-born Lee Oswald.  On the other hand, a three inch difference in eyewitness descriptions is not a whole lot to go on. 

But that Oswald/Hidell wallet at 10th and Patton had to get there somehow, and I simply don’t believe Ken Croy’s latter-day story that he gave it to Westbrook. John A. and I both believe LEE gave his wallet directly to Westbrook.  (After all, that wallet was highly radioactive after Harvey Oswald's arrest and Lee could hardly use it again.)

Recall also that Fred Moore, who told the FBI that around 8:30 AM he sold Oswald two beers after seeing his drivers license, apparently also told the FBI that this Oswald was wearing a “light shirt” and had a sweater. The light or white shirt description, at least, pretty much matches many of the eyewitness accounts from 10th and Patton.

Also, Steve, you might want to fix your Mary Ferrell link above.  I had to remove “http://” from the start of the url to make it work.

Steve,

John A. makes the case that on the day of the assassination, starting from early morning on,  Lee Oswald was wearing a white shirt and Harvey Oswald (the guy killed by Ruby) was wearing a brown shirt.  As you know, the original police dispatch describing Tippit’s killer was: "Last seen about the 300 block East Jefferson. He's a white male about 30, 5'8", black hair, slender, wearing a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks." (emphasis added)

Ted Calloway saw the shooter walking south on Patton and described him as a "white male, 27, 5'11", 165 lbs, black wavy hair, fair complected, wearing a light gray Eisenhower type jacket, dark trousers, and a white shirt."

Jack Tatum said, "he had on a light colored zipper jacket, dark trousers and what looked like a t-shirt on." Tatum later told HSCA investigator Moriarty that he did not see Oswald wearing a brown shirt, just a white t-shirt. 

Probably the closest witness to the shooting was Domingo Benavides, who recalled “the back of his head seemed like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapering off. His hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off."  That kind of rules out brown-shirted Harvey Oswald.

We think LEE Oswald very soon after the Tippit shooting gave Westbrook his wallet (containing a Texas drivers license), his .38 revolver, and his white jacket.

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Jim - pardon the no doubt oft answered question - what were the two Oswalds up to in the TSBD? 

Hi Paul….

Thanks for asking.

LHO, we’re told, began working at the TSBD on October 16, 1963.  From that date to 11/22/63, another Oswald appeared in many places in and around Dallas doing all sorts of things to look like a potential presidential assassin.  No doubt you’re familiar with the list.

On Nov. 22, while LHO was riding with Wesley Frazier and then starting work at the TSBD, another Oswald was identified by two different people at the Top 10 Record Store in Oak Cliff and, around 8:30 am, was seen at a Jiffy store by Fred Moore, who sold this Oswald two bottles of beer after seeing his Texas drivers license. Moore reported the name on the license as “Lee Oswald or possibly H. Lee Oswald” and the birth date as 1939.  After a little liquid courage....
 
Shortly before the assassination, a number of witnesses saw two men--including a man in a light colored shirt who some said looked like Oswald--on the sixth floor of the TSBD.  Several said he appeared to be holding a rifle with a scope.  John A. and I think that this Oswald was, once again, framing the other Oswald for the assassination of JFK. He would do it again near 10th and Patton shortly thereafter.

For more details on this see the following pages on HarveyandLee.net:

November 22, 1963

and 

Setting up HARVEY Oswald as the "Patsy"

6 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

The man Bernard Haire saw must have been George Applin. There is no other plausible explanation.

Of course, defenders of this statement have no idea what George Applin looked like, but they are doggedly certain he was the “Oswald look-alike” seen by Butch Burroughs and Bernard Haire. What high research standards!

But there is another highly plausible explanation: Shortly before the assassination of JFK, one Oswald paraded around on the sixth floor of the Book Depository to be seen carrying a Big Gun while the other Oswald was on lower floor(s) of the same building.  

Minutes later one Oswald, seen by Mrs. Reid wearing a white t-shirt, left the TSBD from the west side and was picked up on Elm St. by a Nash Rambler station wagon seen by Roger Craig and a number of other witnesses.   

At about the same time, the other Oswald, wearing a brown shirt, left the TSBD from the north side. Following instructions probably from Bill Shelley, this Oswald boarded the Marsalis bus driven by Cecil McWatters and, when it got stuck in traffic, took William Whaley’s taxi.

Click here to see the enormous amount of evidence for how the two Oswalds left the Book Depository.

Just as was done at the TSBD and the JFK assassination, one Oswald framed the other for the Tippit murder. One Oswald was eventually picked up by Dallas Police at the Texas Theater while the other was most likely escorted out the back door and driven to a car with with a license plate assigned to Collins Radio’s Carl Mather.  As many researchers know, Dallas-based Collins Radio was involved with numerous CIA operations.  Click here for details.

That one Oswald was framing the other for both the Tippit murder and the assassination of JFK is made crystal clear by the fact that there were Lee Harvey Oswald wallets “found” at 10th and Patton as well as on the other Oswald’s person while in a squad car headed to police headquarters.

Two Oswald wallets for two Oswalds.  What could be clearer than that? 
 

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

No.  You have not missed a thing.  I don't have any real evidence for the identification of George Applin.  Let me say that again, "I don't have any real evidence for the identification of George Applin".  

Ah, the clarification is appreciated!!  I just want people to realize that there is no evidence presented so far that the guy in that photo is George J. Applin.  And as a general lament about this whole case, I sure wish I could trust the photo evidence more, especially from misrepresentation.  

John,

Did I miss something?  I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever that the picture you keep posting is of George Applin.  What makes you think it is?  There were demonstrations in Dallas on 11/22/63 and I believe a number of young men were taken into police custody.  Are you really sure this is George Applin?  Please post the evidence for it.

Mr. B. finds it hard to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was impersonated at the Texas Theater.  But there are at least three different times that the United States government has admitted the possibility (and once the certainty) of an Oswald impersonator.

Back in 1960, J. Edgar Hoover wrote, “there is a possibility that an imposter is using Oswald’s birth certificate.

Less than a year later, the State Department’s Edward J. Hickey wrote, “it has been stated that there in an imposter using Oswald’s identification data….”

" 

At 10 AM on the morning following the Kennedy assassination, President Lyndon Johnson and FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover discussed the state of the case over the telephone. Hoover stated, in unequivocal terms, that LHO had been impersonated in Mexico City.

"No, that’s one angle that’s very confusing, for this reason—we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald’s name. That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man’s voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there."  [Listen to the conversation here.] 

The HSCA threatened Marita Lorenz with prison and forced a retraction after she testified under oath that she worked with LHO in Florida, and saw Alex Rorke take pictures of him, at the same time another LHO was in the Soviet Union.

Also while one LHO was in Russia, there are credible reports that another LHO was active in New York City at the same time.

During this same period, while one LHO was in Russia, another was actually arrested in New Orleans, along with Celso Henandez.  See a Garrison report here.

The Bolton Ford incident, and others involving Oswald in the U.S. at the same time he was in Russia, occurred during this same time frame.

Later, weeks before the assassination, Texas Employment Commission employee Laura Kittrell interviewed two different young men, both of whom claimed to be LHO.  She told the HSCA’s Gaeton Fonzi that the two young men “were much alike in size, shape and outline, [but] generally, there was a marked difference between them in bearing and manner.” 

And, as all researchers know, LHO was impersonated time and time again in and around Dallas during the weeks leading up to the assassination.  These impersonations were depicted in the famous 1973 motion picture entitled “Executive Action,” which starred Burt Lancaster, Robert Ryan, and Will Geer.

Isn’t it amazing that America’s most infamous “Lone Nut” was impersonated time and time again?  The Texas Theater was just one of dozens of other examples.  Doesn’t this seem odd?  Do you suppose there could be a simpler explanation?  I'll bet it doesn't occur to Mr. B!

David and John,

When I click on the Chauncey Holt.doc link, I get the following error message:

This attachment is not available. It may have been removed or the person who shared it may not have permission to share it to this location.

17 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Right on.  I have always thought this.  Don't forget Chauncey Holt the long time criminal, mob assassin, and government (CIA) assassin also seen in those NO photos.

Thanks David.  I will keep this in my files.

This is news to me (or I've forgotten it).  John, do you know a good source to get me up to speed on this?

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

We know that George Applin resembled Oswald: both were white, male and in their early twenties. We have no evidence that Applin looked substantially different from Oswald

And you have no evidence whatsoever that Mr. Applin looked even remotely like LHO.  

The link Mr. B. provided at the top of this page wasn’t working when I tried it, but I guarantee there is no evidence that whatever picture is there depicts George Applin.  

16 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

There is a picture from 1967 or so of Westbrook in Vietnam, in the company of none other than David Morales. 

Thanks to DJ for digging up that picture.  The fingerprints of U.S. Intel are all over this case.  Here, once more, is the Dallas Morning News report of Westbrook’s then upcoming assignment in Vietnam:

The TSBD’s Bill Shelley, who was Oswald’s supervisor, may also have been associated with the CIA.

In a 1989 letter Dallas journalist Elzie Glaze wrote, "Mr. Shelley claims to have been an intelligence officer during World War II and thereafter joined the CIA."

David Josephs also prepared the following graphic, which seems to show that Shelley was with Oswald at the New Orleans Trade Mart just three months before the assassination of JFK.  The top row is from New Orleans, the bottom row from Dallas on 11/22/63.

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Jim, I imagine you and John have considered this but it doesn't have to be Westbrook at the window for the scenario to still be the most likely thing that happened.  I fully agree Westbrook was involved.  He had a busy day on Friday.

But a trusted subordinate could have stood at the window observing Ruby arriving at the All Right parking garage, going to Western Union, exiting it or entering the City Hall annex.  Heck it could have been Croy.  But other officers would have followed orders, and stayed silent afterwards.  Whether they knew their purpose in advance or not.

At a pre determined point, exiting Western Union, entering the annex, they left for the Homicide offices to nod, wink or whisper "he's here".  Someone else, higher up does the same to Fritz.  It works either way better than Ruby accidentally strolling down the ramp with Jackie and the kids on his mind and his pistol in his pocket. 

Ron,

In addition to what David said, I’d add that the coauthors’ opinions that Westbrook signaled Fritz when Ruby was in place is clearly a theory, but it makes perfect sense.

First, it is odd that Westbrook wasn’t in Fritz’s office before the transfer of Oswald began.  After all, Westbrook was utterly instrumental in handling the so-called “evidence.” He showed around, even to TV cameras, the 10th and Patton “Oswald/Hidell” wallet, the jacket, and he even had the .38 caliber revolver, which Officer Hill (who worked directly for Westbrook) inexplicably brought to Westbrook’s office instead of Capt. Fritz’s Homicide and Robbery office, where it surely belonged.

My opinion is that Westbrook was part of the conspiracy, at least the conspiracy to frame Oswald. And Fritz needed someone he could trust, which would include Westbrook, to indicate when to start moving Oswald.  I don’t think it was Croy, because he most likely needed to stay in the basement to be sure Ruby got to Oswald at just the right time.  (Had Ruby stood for several minutes waiting for Oswald, a cop might have spotted him and ordered him away.)

11 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

As I explained, the evidence shows that only one young white man was escorted by the police into the alley and driven away in a police car. We know of only one young white man who was escorted by the police into the alley and driven away in a police car: George Jefferson Applin, Jr.

And did George Applin look anything like LHO?  Did he have red hair?  Was he balding?  Did he weigh 300 pounds?  Did he have a beard?  You don’t have the slightest idea, but you’re absolutely certain he was the guy who two different witness thought looked a lot like Oswald.  Case closed!
 

7 hours ago, John Butler said:

Thanks for posting this.  I had not seen this Gus Rose interview.  And, you know what I think of the Oswald/Paine photo mix up to give credibility to the alleged Paine Minox camera.

I'll make copies of these to add to my files.  Thanks again.

John,

I got that copy of the interview with Gus Rose from the online JFK John Armstrong Collection at Baylor University.  John got most of the stuff there during scores of personal visits to the JFK Collection at the National Archives, and there are things in his collection that you won’t find, or will have difficulty finding, almost anywhere else.

There must be others, but I don't know of any researcher other than John A. who actually held Oswald's Minox camera in his hands.  (He had to wear white "evidence gloves," though.)

Nearly every word in the huge database is searchable, including in hand written notes!  

The Collection used to be highly intuitive to search, but now is a little more difficult after a recent revision.  It still works beautifully, though.  If you have any difficulty, I'm sure you’ll only need a tip or two to get going.  Let me know if you’re interested.

43 minutes ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

It is indeed an old debate. All the points Jim raises were dealt with in August 2019 on the threads I linked to in my previous post. Let's go through them again, shall we?

Or we can just summarize Mr. B's complaints quite briefly:

Burroughs was wrong, Haire was wrong, Applin was wrong, Douglass was wrong, Stringfellow was wrong, the Tippit Homicide Report was wrong, and I’m wrong.  Only Mr. B. and G. Parker are right!

Case closed, eh?

From his book JFK and the Unspeakable:

Butch Burroughs, who witnessed Oswald’s arrest, startled me in his interview by saying he saw a second arrest occur in the Texas Theater only “three or four minutes later.”[444] He said the Dallas Police then arrested “an Oswald lookalike.” Burroughs said the second man “looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something.”[445] When I questioned the comparison by asking, “Could you see the second man as well as you could see Oswald?” he said, “Yes, I could see both of them. They looked alike.”[446] After the officers half-carried and half-dragged Oswald to the police car in front of the theater, within a space of three or four minutes, Burroughs saw the second Oswald placed under arrest and handcuffed. The Oswald look-alike, however, was taken by police not out the front but out the back of the theater.[447]

What happened next we can learn from another neglected witness, Bernard Haire.[448]

Bernard J. Haire was the owner of Bernie’s Hobby House, just two doors east of the Texas Theater. Haire went outside his store when he saw police cars congregating in front of the theater.[449] When he couldn’t see what was happening because of the crowd, he went back through his store into the alley out back. It, too, was full of police cars, but there were fewer spectators. Haire walked up the alley. When he stopped opposite the rear door of the theater, he witnessed what he would think for decades was the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald.

“Police brought a young white man out,” Haire told an interviewer. “The man was dressed in a pullover shirt and slacks. He seemed to be flushed, as if he’d been in a struggle. Police put the man in a police car and drove off.”[450]

When Haire was told in 1987 that Lee Harvey Oswald had been brought out the front of the theater by police, he was shocked.

“I don’t know who I saw arrested,” he said in bewilderment.[451]

Butch Burroughs and Bernard Haire are complementary witnesses. From their perspectives both inside and outside the Texas Theater, they saw an Oswald double arrested and taken to a police car in the back alley only minutes after the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald. Burroughs’s and Haire’s independent, converging testimonies provide critical insight into the mechanics of the plot. In a comprehensive intelligence scenario for Kennedy’s and Tippit’s murders, the plan culminated in Oswald’s Friday arrest and Sunday murder (probably a fallback from his being set up to be killed in the Texas Theater by the police).

There is a hint of the second Oswald’s arrest in the Dallas police records. According to the Dallas Police Department’s official Homicide Report on J. D. Tippit, “Suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas theatre at 231 W. Jefferson.”[452]

Dallas Police detective L. D. Stringfellow also reported to Captain W. P. Gannaway, “Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater.”[453]

NOTES:

444. Author’s interview of Burroughs, July 16, 2007. Butch Burroughs is a man of few words. When asked a question, he answers exactly what he is asked. Burroughs told me no one had ever asked him before about a second arrest in the Texas Theater. In response to my question, “Now you didn’t see anybody else [besides Oswald] get arrested that day, did you?” he answered, “Yes, there was a lookalike—an Oswald lookalike.” In response to further questions, he described the second arrest, that of the “Oswald lookalike.” Ibid. Because Butch Burroughs saw neither Oswald nor his lookalike enter the Texas Theater, each must have gone directly up the balcony stairs on entering. Oswald crossed the balcony and came down the stairs on the far side of the lobby. There he entered the orchestra seats and began his seat-hopping, in apparent search of a contact. His lookalike sneaked into the theater at 1:45 P.M. and, like Oswald, went immediately up the balcony stairs. By the time Burroughs witnessed the Oswald double’s arrest, he had also come down the balcony stairs on the far side of the lobby, either on his own or already accompanied by police who had been checking the balcony. 

445. §
Ibid. 

446. §
Ibid. 

447. §
Ibid. 

448. §
In the data base of the JFK Records Act at the National Archives, there is no record of Bernard Haire. Archivist Martin F. McGann to James Douglass, July 20, 2007. 

449. §
In a photo taken about 1:50 P.M., November 22, 1963, that shows people gathering around the police cars in front of the Texas Theater, Bernard Haire can be seen at the edge of the crowd, leaning on a parking meter and trying to see. Photo by Stuart L. Reed; on p. 68, Myers, With Malice. 

450. §
Bernard J. Haire interview by Jim Marrs, summer 1987. Crossfire, p. 354. 

451. §
Ibid. 

452. §
Dallas Police Department Homicide Report on J. D. Tippit, November 22, 1963. Reproduced in With Malice, p. 447 (emphasis added). 

453. §
Letter from Detective L. D. Stringfellow to Captain W. P. Gannaway, November 23, 1963, Dallas City Archives. Cited in Harvey & Lee, p. 871 (emphasis added). 

2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

We have a plausible candidate for the young man in question: George Jefferson Applin, Jr.

This is an old debate.  Here’s what I wrote three or four years ago:

There is no evidence that George Applin left the theater through the alley exit, nor is there evidence that he left the theater in time to be the man seen by Bernard Haire.  (He said he left the theater “later” after the police had questioned the customers.)  Nowhere in his affidavit or 1964 testimony does he say when he first saw Main Floor Oswald in the theater. 

Since the list of theater patrons vanished, we only have two eyewitnesses on the record as to when Main Floor Oswald arrived at the theater, Butch Burroughs and Jack Davis. Both witnesses say he was there before 1:15 pm, the time the WC wanted us to believe Tippit was murdered.  And Davis’s description of events suggests Main Floor Oswald may have created a scene because moved about in the theater, sitting right next to several different customers, which may be one of the reasons the customer list had to disappear.

By his own account, Applin was on the main floor, not the balcony, and so he had nothing to do with the Balcony Oswald.  According to the WC, citing the Postal/Brewer saga, Balcony Oswald entered the theater shortly after 1:30 pm, at least 20 minutes after Burroughs and Davis saw Main Floor Oswald inside the theater.  

At 1:45 pm, Postal called the police and said the suspicious man who ducked into the theater was hiding in the balcony.  At 1:46 pm, the Dallas Police dispatcher broadcast this message: “Have information a suspect just went in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson ... supposed to be hiding in balcony.  

Two DPD reports say “Oswald” was arrested in the balcony.  For decades now, Burroughs has said he saw a man who looked like Classic Oswald® arrested in the balcony soon after Main Floor Oswald was captured.  That man was not George Applin.

21 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

1) Which version of the DPD Dispatch Tapes did this version come from? Which version are you using?

2) 531 is not Sgt. Owens. 19 is Owens. 531 is Dispatcher Henslee (I think his initials are J.D Henslee).

3) I don't know why Gerald Hill was assigned call# 550/2. Maybe because he and Westbrook were both in Personnel?

4) Look at the signature at the bottom. Do you have the ability to blow up an image, or part of an image? It looks like it's been typed over.

5) It looks like the version you are using is one of the earlier versions. The DPD provided a copy to the WC, and the WC was not happy. Nobody was identified, and I not sure if times were provided. Someone had to go back in and          hand-write who these people on the tapes were. Notice how they're all written in in pencil.

Thanks for the correction on #531 and the various links to dispatcher logs. Here’s the clearest enlargement I can make of the typed signature.  It looks like a type-over to me too.

You have a lot more expertise in the various versions of the DPD dispatch logs than I do.  I got the page reproduced above from John A. and didn’t ask him which version it was. In general, have you compared various versions to see what the differences are?  How about this one specifically?

Also, are you sure that Hill was assigned Westbrook’s #550?  Isn’t it just as likely, or more so, that Westbrook himself made the call?  If Westbrook was behind the theater to meet the Oswald look-alike seen by Butch Burroughs and Bernard Haire, it may well have been to escort him away from the scene. If that is so, Westbrook would surely know to try and cover that up as it was happening, which could explain that call.  The fact that he told the WC he went straight back to his desk suggests his plan hadn’t worked entirely. 

If memory serves, Westbrook ordered cops inside the theater to "hide his face" as LHO was dragged out.
 

Steve,

Thanks for continuing this discussion.  I've got to go to an Easter thing, but I'll study this some more tonight or tomorrow AM.

John,

Jack Tatum saw the man who shot Tippit begin to leave and then quickly return to the body and shoot Tippit in the head.  More after my consultation with the Easter Bunny, who I predict can come closer to solving this case than the WC did.

The WC asked Westbrook what he did after Oswald was arrested (at 1:51 PM). Westbrook told the WC that he “went back to city hall and resumed my desk.”

Mr. Ball.  Did you see him taken from the theatre?
Mr. Westbrook.  No sir; because I went the other way.
Mr. Ball.  You went to the back?
Mr. Westbrook. Yes.  He went out the front and I never saw Oswald again--that's the last time I saw him."

Now let’s look at the dispatch transcript, which includes references to the following:

223 is Officer Walker
492 is Bob Carroll
19 is Sgt. Owens
550 is Westbrook
531 is Sgt. Owens

Most are in and around 10th & Patton, while talking to the dispatcher.

Read the last few lines below. Westbrook (550) says LHO was apprehended and en route to the station. Then Westbrook says 223 and 492 are in the car WITH US !!!!! The dispatcher has every reason to believe that Westbook is the car with LHO, Walker and Carroll en route to the police station. But Westbrook was not in the car, yet it was Westbrook's car that Carroll drove to police headquarters along with Walker, Hill, Lyons, Bentley, and LHO.

Sure looks to me like Westbrook was lying… again.