Jim Hargrove
-
Posts
3,797 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Store
Posts posted by Jim Hargrove
-
-
23 hours ago, John Butler said:
How could one determine that? That is the question. The only thing I can think of is the two Oswalds went into the military at different times. There is evidence to suggest this. They went to different training centers. There is evidence to suggest this. So, ONI would have two sets of paperwork for the two Oswalds that would have to be merged. That would be simple enough. Simply destroy Lee Oswald's records from the eastern training center at Parris Island. Then you are left with Harvey's in California.
A record of Lee Oswald knowing other Marines at Parris Island and those other Marines saying he was there. Would that come to the attention of the FBI. It might when Oswald was in New York after Harvey went to Russia. HIs political activities there could have roused the interest of the FBI. I think this would come after Harveys trip to Russia.
The letter is dated June 3, 1960. That is about 9 or so months after Harvey went to Russia. That's plenty of time for J. Edgar to investigate. I am not recalling the date when Lee Oswald was in New York with Steve Landesberg. But, one said he was receiving postcards from Lee in Europe at about the same time. I probably need to go back and re-read that material.
John,
Wish we knew how Hoover reacted to other “defectors” to USSR, like Webster, and exactly who he alerted about them.
I also can’t remember how Parris Island fits into this (is there another name for the base there?), but John A. believes that when Lee HARVEY Oswald entered the Marines on Oct 24, 1956 in San Diego, LEE Harvey Oswald was at El Toro, about 50 miles to the north. After a leave in early 1957, LEE Harvey Oswald moved on to Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi via a brief stop in Jacksonville, FL.
The Landesberg/L’eandes/Oswald shenanigans in NYC occurred in very late 1961 and early 1962, so that shouldn’t have had any effect on Hoover’s imposter memo. But as you say, the Marine activities may well have attracted his notice, and the so-called defection certainly would have.
The Bolton Ford incident occurred Jan. 20, 1961, and therefore shouldn’t have been part of Hoover’s calculus in the memo. I agree that he was a smart SOB, and I can't help but wonder how much he knew before 11/22/63. I'll bet it was a lot, including the fact that "Oswald" had been to Cuba several times but, according to Hoover, wouldn't tell them why he went there. According to the Official Story, of course, "Oswald" never set foot in Cuba.
-
Steve,
I can usually follow your posts with little difficulty, but I’m having a hard time figuring out how this “Sanchez” fellow fits into the Acosta/Buchanan story. The whole saga is suspect to me because it seems to present the JFK assassination patsy-to-be as a pro-Castro sympathizer nearly two months before he actually moved to NOLA for no particular reason other than to play that role. The Buchanan report may have been part of the smear Cuba/Commies/Oswald campaign that went into such high gear immediately after the assassination, but it also seems a possible precursor to the NOLA charade beginning less than two months later. Any thoughts about that?
Oswald’s 1963 passport issuance while the 1959 passport was still valid is also puzzling. In my travels, I’ve noticed that a number of countries caution against stays on a passport expiring in less than 6 months, but that is the most stringent restriction I can recall, other than nations, such as Russia, that require visas for visitors from the U.S.
-
23 hours ago, John Butler said:
Did J. Edgar mean that someone in Russia could acquire this birth certificate, or was the person currently in control of the birth certificate an imposter? What if the later part is true? This would indicate J. Edgar knew about the false defector program and the double Oswalds. Would he have known about Harvey being an imposter?
This idea may be given some credence since J. Edgar sent a copy to the Director of Naval Intelligence for his information. The ONI were the folks running the false defector program with the CIA.
John,
I hadn’t thought much about Hoover’s Navy Intell referral, but now that you bring it up it does seem interesting. It could be argued that since Oswald's paperwork was still in the Navy Reserves on the date Hoover wrote the letter (the USMC dishonorable discharge came about three months later), it would be natural for Hoover to inform the USMC/Navy about his concerns.
OTOH, it is interesting that he chose Naval Intelligence to copy. I don’t know if choosing Naval Intel for the correspondence would be out of the ordinary for this sort of thing. If it was unusual, then this is interesting new evidence about what Hoover knew, even in 1960, about Oswald’s false defection.
Recall that Oswald allegedly surrendered his passport to the U.S. Embassy in Moscow in 1959. Not sure exactly when he got it back, but John A. wrote in H&L:
When the Bureau returned Harvey Oswald's possessions to the Dallas Police on November 26, [1963] two passports were listed on the joint DPD/FBI inventory (CE 2113)--item 446 (the 1963 passport) and item 449 (the 1959 passport). The 1959 passport, which was not initialed by Dallas Police detectives, listed on their inventory, or photographed on November 22/23, was added to the inventory between November 23 to November 26 by the FBI in Washington, DC.
It is also interesting to note that there was no reason why a new passport was needed by Oswald in 1963. The 1959 passport was still valid for several more years.
I’ve often wondered about when Hoover learned of Oswald’s spy status and the double Oswald project. My bet is that he knew about both aspects well before JFK was killed.
-
Steve,
This is probably all old news to you on the Buchanan front [I'll try to catch up over the next week or so], but....
From the H&L book:
Three days later (April 1) the New York Times reported, "Seventeen heavily
armed Cuban exiles planning to attack a Soviet tanker off Cuba were seized yesterday
by a British force on a solitary islet in the Bahamas chain. The capture was apparently
the first result of an agreement worked out late last week by Washington and London
to cooperate in preventing raids by opponents of Premier Fidel Castro. Cuban exiles
reacted with a mixture of anger, defiance and gloom." The raiding party was led by Jerry
Buchanan, a member of Frank Fiorini Sturgis' CIA sponsored International Anti-Com-
munist Brigade. [ H&L p. 524]This story, if true, clearly puts "Lee Harvey Oswald" in Florida, just as Marita Lorenz and others said.
-
Find it hard to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was impersonated at Bolton Ford?
Do you suppose this sort of thing happened at other times and places?
Back in 1960, J. Edgar Hoover wrote, “there is a possibility that an imposter is using Oswald’s birth certificate.
Less than a year later, the State Department’s Edward J. Hickey wrote, “it has been stated that there in an imposter using Oswald’s identification data….”
"
At 10 AM on the morning following the Kennedy assassination, President Lyndon Johnson and FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover discussed the state of the case over the telephone. Hoover stated, in unequivocal terms, that LHO had been impersonated in Mexico City.
"No, that’s one angle that’s very confusing, for this reason—we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald’s name. That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man’s voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there." [Listen to the conversation here.]
The HSCA threatened Marita Lorenz with prison and forced a retraction after she testified under oath that she worked with LHO in Florida, and saw Alex Rorke take pictures of him, at the same time another LHO was in the Soviet Union.
Also while one LHO was in Russia, there are credible reports that another LHO was active in New York City at the same time.
During this same period, while one LHO was in Russia, another was actually arrested in New Orleans, along with Celso Henandez. See a Garrison report here.
The Bolton Ford incident, and others involving Oswald in the U.S. at the same time he was in Russia, occurred during this same time frame.
Later, weeks before the assassination, Texas Employment Commission employee Laura Kittrell interviewed two different young men, both of whom claimed to be LHO. She told the HSCA’s Gaeton Fonzi that the two young men “were much alike in size, shape and outline, [but] generally, there was a marked difference between them in bearing and manner.”
And, as all researchers know, LHO was impersonated time and time again in and around Dallas during the weeks leading up to the assassination. These impersonations were depicted in the famous 1973 motion picture entitled “Executive Action,” which starred Burt Lancaster, Robert Ryan, and Will Geer.
Isn’t it amazing that America’s most infamous “Lone Nut” was impersonated time and time again? The Bolton Ford incident was just one of dozens of other examples. Doesn’t this seem odd? Do you suppose there could be a simpler explanation?
-
3 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:
That person looks nothing like Lee Harvey Oswald.
He looks quite a bit like LEE Harvey Oswald:
-
18 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:
I believe that "Joseph Moore" is the same person Jim Garrison referred to as "Shepherd" in his notes. Here is how Richard Billings summarizes what Garrison said about Shepherd and Oswald:
Garrison says Oswald almost definitely can be placed in the Carousel . . .Check statement of Harvey [sic] Wade (Vol. XXV, CE 2370) . . . Wade says Oswald was sitting with a white male, 30 to 32, stocky, dark, 200 pounds, etc. . . . The Spanish trace continued . . . Wade made his statement on Nov. 26 . . . Said he saw Oswald in club Nov. 10 . . . Furthermore, the mind reading MC, Bill de Mar . . . Also in CE 2370 . . . He says a photographer snapped picture of table, whereupon Ruby grabbed film and tore it up . . .
More on Spanish trace . . . Giant says the shepherd has a one-inch scar on left eyebrow . . . He was also seen by Bringuier and Miguel Cruz at Maison Blanche when Oswald passing out leaflets . . . He was wearing a coat and tie and sunglasses . . . He was taking pictures of Oswald . . . And was this not the guy driving the tan station wagon?
You can actually see Shepherd (his back side) in a film of Oswald handing out leaflets.
I believe that "Joseph Moore" and "Shepherd" are none other than David Sanchez Morales.
You can even make out a scar over his left eye, though I'm sure it was more noticeable in person.
See Harvey Wade's Testimony, CE 2370:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pages/WC_Vol25_0190a.gif
Fascinating post! Megathanks! The FBI report you linked above on Wade’s recollection sure makes it sound like Morales was one of two men who accompanied Oswald at the Carousel Club.
“The number two man is described as a white male, 30-32 years old, 200 pounds, 5 feet 10 inches, stocky build, long black hair, dark complexion, oval face, and Mexican or Spanish in appearance. He had numerous bumps on his face and was believed to have a one-inch scar in the eyebrow of his left eye.”
Again, that sure sounds like Morales. It would be remarkable if this Agency assassin was actually present with an Oswald at Bolton Ford, an Oswald at Shaw’s NOLA International Trade Mart, AND an Oswald the Carousel Club. More ties of the Oswald project to the Agency, especially David Phillips, and an indication that Morales worked with both Oswalds.
And, of course, this adds to the evidence that while one LHO was in Russia, another was active in the U.S. in Florida, Louisiana, and even New York City.
Some researchers disagree, but I still think this photo shows LEE Harvey Oswald at Ruby’s club.
-
Mr. Wexler,
Here are both pages of the most complete report I’m aware of, declassified by the CIA in 1997, about Charles A. Waters. If you know about another report, I'd love to see it!
Perhaps you can find a few minutes to once again remake your case that Charles A. Waters was the “Lee Oswald” at Bolton Ford in New Orleans in 1961. I’d REALLY appreciate it!!
-
Denis,
Yes, I think the photo you posted shows Croy talking to Helen Markham. Below is a larger version from my website. About this photo, John A. wrote:
Croy told the Warren Commission that he "got me a witness" (Helen Markham) and questioned her for "a good 5 or 10 minutes" (circa 1:09-1:19 PM). As Croy was talking with Markham the first squad arrived and began to talk with Markham. Croy can be seen standing next to Helen Markham in this photo. Croy told the Warren Commission that he was at 10th & Patton for "a good 30 minutes." Croy said, "as I got ready to leave, there was another report that he ran into the Texas Theater, a man fitting Oswald's description had ran into the Texas Theater."
He looks even younger in the high school picture you posted, but I can see a resemblance (though I’m admittedly terrible with faces).
-
16 hours ago, Denis Morissette said:
How do you know that Croy was wearing a white hat?
Several pieces of evidence, including Croy’s own WC testimony, indicate he (Croy) was standing right next to Ruby just before the hit. Here again are the photos John A. and I believe show Croy and Ruby seconds before Ruby fired.
-
14 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:
Doesn't this sound similar to the description of one of the men Acquilla Clemons reported seeing at the scene of J.D. Tippit's killing?
It's a pretty generalized description, and the Tippit witnesses were simply all over the place in their descriptions. Anything else to go on?
13 hours ago, Stu Wexler said:I do not have time at the moment to go into it, but I have presented on this before. The "Oswald" in the Bolton Ford incident was very likely Charles Waters a hanger-on with anti-Castro militants. He is a very interesting character. That said this does not have to be some elaborate plot. My guess: Tujague got pissed that a former employee went to the commies and those in his circle were not opposed to using it as some sort of inside joke. I do think it could have become something else by 63, including involving Waters.
Are you referring to the Charles A. Waters who was a Marine guard at the U.S. Embassy in Uruguay at the time E. Howard Hunt was there? Seems hard to believe that this was all a Tujague joke. Do you have evidence to support that? Both Deslatte and Sewell apparently believed the man they met at Bolton Ford resembled LHO and he clearly used the name “Lee Oswald.”
-
Denis,
In the photos I've seen from that Sunday afternoon, Croy was wearing a white hat. Do you have reason to believe otherwise?
-
9 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:
Jim,
Strangest thing I've ever seen.
One day he's going down to Alabama to give a talk to a Jesuit College, and the next day he shows up at Carlos Bringuier's offering to help train the exiles.
One day he's writing to the FPFCC, and the next day, somebody calling himself Oswald shows up on a dock in Miami trying to join a raiding party.
One day he shows up at Sylvia Odio's, and the next day, her uncle tells her, "Don't trust him, he's FBI".
Strangest thing I've ever seen.
Steve Thomas
Ignoring the issue of multiple Oswalds (and/or deliberate impersonations), at least some of this can be explained by viewing “Oswald” as a U.S. intel operative who sometimes openly supported anti-Castro efforts and sometimes infiltrated leftist organizations by claiming commie sympathies. All in a day’s work for a spy.
The full scope of the Oswald issues goes far beyond this, though.
-
6 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:
Jim,
It's interesting that that FBI file 105-82555 says that the truck dealers turned him down
Steve Thomas
I think the FBI just wanted this whole thing to go away. In that 1967 interview with Alcock and Garrison, Sewell said, “There wasn’t any money being transacted, there was just a bid. If there had been money transacted or if they had given us an order, we would have made them sign it, then we would have had their signatures. But I don’t believe they touched it.”
Then Sewell said the FBI didn’t show him or Deslatte any pictures of Oswald or anyone else. I’ll believe Fred Sewell over that FBI report in a heartbeat.
2 hours ago, John Butler said:A confirmation that an Oswald was trying to buy trucks at Bolton Ford.
What makes these 1961 sightings of LHO in the U.S. while another was in Russia so believable, at least to me, is that they were all in direct contrast to the pro-Castro persona being created for Oswald immediately after the assassination. Strange that they suggest Oswald was working against Castro at the very time all those pro-Castro stories were being told, eh?
-
The Bolton Ford Incident
On January 20, 1961, while Lee Harvey Oswald was in Minsk, two men visited the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans. They spoke with Assistant Manager Oscar Deslatte and said they were interested in purchasing 10 Ford Econoline Trucks. As one of the men discussed the purchase with Deslatte the other man, who identified himself as Joseph Moore, made a list of the equipment they desired on the trucks.
Deslatte went to his boss, truck manager Fred Sewell, and told him about the two men who wanted to purchase trucks and said they represented the "Free Democrats of Cuba or some such organization." Sewell told Deslatte to give the men a bid of $75 over their cost for the trucks. Deslatte and Sewell returned to Deslatte's desk and wrote out a bid form to Joseph Moore. As Deslatte was filling out the bid form, Joseph Moore and the other man began talking to both Deslatte and Sewell.
When Moore saw that Deslatte had written his name on the bid form he asked that the name be changed to "Friends of Democratic Cuba." Moore's friend looked· at the form and said, "By the way, you'd better put my name down there because I'm the man handling the money." When Deslatte asked, "What's your name?" the man replied, "Lee Oswald."
Sewell described Lee Oswald as, "5-foot-6 or 5-foot-7, thin, about 140 pounds, and thought he needed a meal and a haircut. He recalled that Oswald was clean but "wasn't well dressed and he wasn't shabby." Sewell described the second man, who identified himself as Joseph Moore as, "Kind of heavy-set ..... not overly, but well built ..... he was curly haired ..... he had a scar over his left eye ..... olive complexioned and seemed to be educated ..... he had a Cuban accent and looked like a Cuban."
Deslatte gave the original bid form to "Lee Oswald" and kept a copy for his files, which he gave to the FBI following the assassination.
The purchaser was listed as the "Friends of Democratic Cuba," 402 St. Charles Street, New Orleans, LA., phone number JA-5-0763.43 After talking with Deslate for over an hour the two men took the original bid form and left.
NOTE: The Friends of Democratic Cuba was incorporated on January 9, 1961 in
Louisiana. The address of 402 St. Charles Street was listed as vacant in the 1960, 1961
and 1962 New Orleans City directories.Remarkable about the “Friends of Democratic Cuba” were the names of two of its officers. The image shown below is a composite scan from the beginning and the end of the Louisiana Articles of Incorporation for Friends of Democratic Cuba, Inc.
W. Guy Banister worked at the infamous 544 Camp Street address in New Orleans, made famous by the Jim Garrison investigation.
Gerard Tugague employed Oswald briefly in late 1955 and early 1956 at the 300 Sanlin Building in New Orleans.
On our website John Armstrong wrote, “This well-known incident was cited in Warren Commission Document 75 p. 677 and the House Select Committee on Assassinations Vol. X; FBI 67-39565-66. For years some JFK researchers believed that an impostor was using Oswald's name while the alleged future assassin was in Russia. As more and more examples surfaced it became clear that another man, using the name "Lee Harvey Oswald," was associating with anti-Castro Cubans and CIA operatives in the southern United States during the very years the Warren Commission placed him in the Soviet Union. This man was southern born LEE Oswald, and is a clear indication that both Oswalds were active in American intelligence operations.”There are other examples of LEE Oswald operating in the U.S. while HARVEY Oswald was in Russia. For an overview, see THIS PAGE on HarveyandLee.net.
Below is a copy of the FBI report covering this incident. Compare it to the Garrison interview excerpted above. For more information about why the FBI report is misleading, see below.
As we’ll see immediately below, by 12/19/63 the FBI had already confirmed through a third source that “Lee Harvey Oswald” said he “was trying to get trucks for Cuba” and that Oswald had contacted Bolton Ford assistant truck manager Oscar W. Deslatte, who worked directly below truck manager Fred Sewell. The FBI apparently tried to bury the Bolton Ford incident, but none of its members, including J. Edgar Hoover, could have predicted that Fred Sewell would be interviewed by James Alcock and Jim Garrison on May 2, 1967.
Sewell told Garrison and Alcock that he believed that one of the two men who visited the Bolton dealership in 1961 had used the name “Lee Oswald.” Sewell then described what happened immediately after the assassination of JFK: “So when the President was assassinated and the name came out, OSCAR come in either the next morning or the morning after and said, ‘Say, Fred, do you remember those two guys who was in here from Cuba trying to get some buses cheap?’ and I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘I think that one of those men was the one who killed the President.’ I said, ‘Aw your kidding’ and he said ‘We’ve got a piece of paper around here somewhere with a bid on it.’ He went and hauled that piece of paper out and the[n] OSCAR called the FBI.”
Sewell went on to describe how two young FBI agents came to the dealership and collected the bid that contained the name “Oswald” and “Friends of Democratic Cuba.” “They took two pieces of plastic and they scooped it up between it and they said have you touched this and we said, well, I guess so.” Sewell said repeatedly they they weren’t shown any pictures of Oswald by the FBI agents, but that the agents informed them that “OSWALD wasn’t even in the country at that time. He couldn’t be.”
Sewell went on to say that the Oswald he saw at the Bolton dealership “appears to be the same man” he saw on television after the President was shot.
By Dec. 19, 1963, the SAC in New Orleans was already confirming directly to J. Edgar Hoover himself that a man named Charles Pearson, who was office manager at Graham Paper Company, had stated that his friend Oscar W. Deslatte, assistant manager of truck sales at Bolton Ford, had been contacted by Oswald about buying trucks. Worse yet, the whole process of investigating the incident was prompted by a phone call from none other than Carlos Bringieur, the man who pretended to fight and then debate on the radio with “Lee Harvey Oswald” in August 1963 in New Orleans.
Above material quoted or adapted from Harvey and Lee by John Armstrong and includes document reproductions from the John Armstrong Collection at Baylor University. -
Ken,
For example, # 8 on the diagram, A.R. Brock, was “moved at 10:15 A.M.,” according to the WC. John has another report (I don’t have it yet) stating that several DPD cops were moved from headquarters to traffic duty late that morning.
From the position Brock occupied, it would have been easy to escort Ruby directly to Oswald, or to spot anyone else doing the same thing, or to see Ruby walking by himself, assuming Ruby entered the building as we suspect. My guess is that Croy replaced Brock somewhere near where #8 is indicated on the diagram, or perhaps just up to the top of the nearby stairs.
Croy is actually #21 on the map, but 10 feet from Oswald looks about right to me. You can see from the photographs, however, how close Croy was to Ruby just before Oswald came into view. I believe Croy testified that he actually touched Ruby’s jacket in a heroic (but failed) effort to stop him. Croy admits/claims he was also the first cop at the Tippit murder scene and that he found the other Oswald wallet there! What a guy!
-
David Josephs just found a nifty WC document that gives the official version of where everyone was in the DPD basement at the time Ruby shot Oswald. (The copy of the diagram DJ got was a HUGE PDF file that I’ve converted to jpg and cropped so it would be readable here. (You may have to expand the image to read the circled numbers.) There is more on the original map to the left, right, and top than what is visible here.)
Immediately below the diagram is a three-page WC list identifying the call-outs on the diagram by name. Remember that this is supposed to illustrate where everyone was standing at the time Oswald was shot. Ken Croy, to pick a random name, was standing right next to Oswald at that time. Note that several officers were moved from critical areas a few hours before the killing, but they nevertheless are depicted here several hours later.
Comments welcomed.
-
We’ve been wondering for some time how it was possible to coordinate the movements of Oswald and Ruby so that the killing could take place a mere 5 minutes after the Western Union money gram was time stamped. Walkie-talkies certainly existed in 1963 but were probably bulky and might have attracted attention.
John and I did a little research yesterday morning and discovered that, according to a 12/6/63 DPD report to Chief Curry, Ruby’s car that Sunday was parked at 2035 Main St., which in 1963 was an open air lot clearly visible from the windows on the third floor of the Dallas Municipal Building, where the police offices were.
It should be noted that there are columns and other architectural features that block much of the view from these windows. Because John had toured a number of times both the Dallas Municipal Bldg and the newer annex right next to it, he knew that the 2035 Main St. lot would be in the direct view of some of those Muni Bldg windows, even though they had limited visibility. This may have simplified coordinating Oswald’s transfer with Ruby’s arrival.
-
On 1/18/2022 at 6:04 AM, Roy Wieselquist said:
Jim H.,
That diagram of Jack Ruby's probable path into the DPD 11.24 is pure gold. It HAD to happen like that. I've been looking for this for many years.
That wiring of the measly funds from Western Union was time-stamped 11:16, and JR shot Oswald at 11:21. Allowing a minute, two at most, for the two clocks being off a little, JR got into position in about five minutes from the time he left WU. He had to have help getting in through a door locked from the inside. The Western Union is just on the other side of the DPD parking lot. There is no way Ruby had time to walk down any heavily-watched ramp, as the War Con speculated.
IMHO, "Blackie" Harrison also assisted Ruby's getting into position. Wasn't the cigarette/cigar machine that had Blackie's brand at one of the exit doors? This action required at least two DPD to pull it off, at least one lookout and one escort. Probably since Harrison had a likely excuse to be at that door, it was he who was looking out for JR with the door just cracked open. And ol' Blackie was also around Jack Ruby, like Croy, when the old gangster jumped out and stuck his gat in Ozzie's gut. This diagram is priceless.
Also, the work of the John Armstrong branch of the research community on Westbrook and Croy 11.22 is pure gold, especially at the Tippit murder scene. This is nailing down a big part of how the coup of 1963 was carried out
Thanks, Roy.
John reasons that the Western Union appearance by Ruby was just a pretext to get him near the jail so it could be argued that Oswald’s murder was relatively spontaneous, thus avoiding a pre-meditated charge. Thanks also for the specific times; I knew it was just a few minutes between the Western Union time and the shooting.
Can’t help much with Harrison, but John is becoming more certain that Fritz had to be involved in this thing. One of the principle reasons (there are several) is that Fritz simply HAD to know about the two Oswald wallets early in the game and never said anything about them.
Just to keep it fresh for everyone, I’m going to repeat John’s diagram from the first page here:
-
5 hours ago, Ken Martinson said:
That's a good diagram of the Dallas PD.
How much organization would it have taken to get Ruby to the right place at the right time?
How could messages be sent? By hand signals? When Ruby was in place, only one hand signal to release Oswald would be enough.
Ken,
The base diagram is a Warren Commission document, but John has explained to me that it is quite misleading for reasons I can describe later if you wish. But first….
It was no more than 10 minutes or so from the time Ruby was wiring money in the Western Union office until he shot Oswald. The timing is just stunning! What kind of communications must have gone on between the DPD (Westbrook and/or Croy?) and Ruby. That would be nice to know!
When Oswald was brought out of the jail office, all eyes were on him. Few would have noticed Croy leading Ruby to Oswald from the parking garage.
Also, just in case some people didn’t read or read to the end John’s article you linked in the OP, notice how quickly Croy and then Ruby show up at Oswald’s side.
-
Garrison's men got much closer to the truth on the Bolton Ford incident than that FBI report Steve excerpted above:
Long before the misleading FBI report was published, the FBI had already learned of Lee Oswald's visit to Bolton Ford from none other than Carlos Bringuier!
-
Thank you for starting this thread, Ken. For just a brief summary....
As you indicated, Croy himself said he was the first officer at the Tippit murder scene.
Croy also claimed that he found the other “Oswald” wallet at 10th and Patton and gave it to Westbrook. (Although he may have been lying to protect Westbrook.)
We also think Croy was the unidentified reserve officer who replaced Officer Brock at 10:45 am on the day Ruby killed Oswald. We think Croy led Ruby directly to Oswald at precisely the time he was brought out of the jail.
We speculate that Croy was in car #207 with Westbrook when it honked in front of Oswald’s boarding house.
We speculate that Croy was in the car with Westbrook that was seen by Mrs. Holan in the narrow driveway blocked by Tippit’s car near 10th and Patton at the time Tippit was killed.
Like Westbrook, Croy was unable to give the WC a convincing explanation of how his time was spent during crucial hours on the afternoon of 11/22/63.
-
Hi, Steve,
In the same memo, Hoover wrote, “we have had a case on Oswald as he has been involved in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.” Seems highly unlikely that Hoover would have concluded that Oswald “is not a communist but has communist leanings” based on anything that came out of Dallas so early that afternoon.
When Hoover wrote that Oswald “went to Cuba on several occasions but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for,” the most logical reading, to me at least, is that “us” refers to the FBI or even to Hoover himself and that it came from the Bureau's case file on Oswald
QuoteFor anyone who suggests that Oswald went to Cuba three weeks after the Bay of Pigs... He was still in Russia.
Ah, but besides Luace's statement, there’s lots of other evidence suggesting “Lee Harvey Oswald” was active in the United States at the same time “Lee Harvey Oswald" was in the Soviet Union. I tried to briefly summarize some of it above, but it includes the Bolton Ford incident, the meetings with KBOX news director Ray Carney, the 1961 State Department memo saying that “an imposter is using Oswald’s identification data” as well as the testimony of Marita Lorenz, and quite a bit more that I haven’t presented here.
-
Hi, Sandy,
I hadn’t seen Mr. Cohen’s document before, and it is interesting, though it certainly doesn’t prove Luace’s ID was wrong. Nevertheless, I’m perfectly willing to concede the possibility that the report was a case of mistaken identity or something like that, but as always in this case, you have to look at all the evidence and not just some of it.
How can Hoover’s 11/22/63 statement can be regarded as a “mistake.” According to Hoover, not only was the FBI aware of “several” LHO trips to Cuba, but agents had clearly questioned Oswald about those trips and Oswald refused to say why he visited. How could Hoover make a “mistake” like that?
So, what else was happening in 1961? For one, the Bolton Ford incident, in which “Lee Oswald” and a man named “Joseph Moore” visited the dealership and asked for quotes on trucks to send to Cuba. The sale was on behalf of “Friends of Democratic Cuba,” an organization headed by, among others, W. Guy Banister and Gerard Tugague.
In late 1960 or early 1961, KBOX news director Raymond Carney said he met Lee Oswald several times when Oswald was trying to get a list of pilots’ names who had volunteered to fly missions over Cuba.
Also in 1961, State Department official Edward Hickey sent a written memo to fellow official John White informing him, “it has been stated there is an imposter using Oswald’s identification data…"
This same time frame, late 1960 and/or 1961 is when numerous people worked with “Lee Harvey Oswald” at anti-Castro training camps and safe houses in Florida and Louisiana. Many of these activities, I believe, were funded by JM/WAVE, and “Lee Harvey Oswald” was intimately involved with them.
The HSCA was so upset by the testimony of Marita Lorenz that lawyers threatened her with prison time if she didn’t retract the following testimony:
Mr. Fithian: "Now is it your testimony that the first time you saw Oswald would have been in the camps in the Everglades?"
Marita Lorenz: "The very first time, no. I saw him in the Safehouse and then in the camps."
Mr. Fithian: "And that first meeting at the Safehouse would have been within a year of the Bay of Pigs?"
Marita Lorenz: "I would say 1960."
Mr. Fithian: "It would be some time during 1960?"
Marita Lorenz: "Late 1960."
Mr. Fithian: "All right. Now I want to be sure that I have your dates correct. You said the first meeting of LEE Harvey Oswald, the first time you saw him, was at a Safehouse in Miami in 1960."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "The next time or times that you saw him were during training at a camp in the Everglades, various places in the Everglades, in early 1960, 1961 period?"
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "And after that you saw him at the Safehouse the second time?"
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "What makes you so sure of the dates. Within a year of the first meeting in the Safehouse and the meeting at the camps in the Everglades, is there anything else you could match that up with?"
Marita Lorenz: "The photographs, the events that took place. the photographs that Alex (Rorke) took. Everywhere we went Alex took pictures."
Mr. Fithian: "This was prior to the Bay of Pigs?"
Marita Lorenz: "Yes, April, 1961, was the Bay of Pigs."
Mr. Fithian: "And you are sure you saw him (Oswald) before April, 1961."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes, because Alex took the pictures."
Mr. Fithian: "And the whole purpose of the training was to somehow participate or help in the Bay of Pigs.
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "Did you see Oswald at any time in the intervening two years between early 1961 prior to April of 1961 and the September-October Safehouse meeting in 1963?"
Marita Lorenz: "No, but Frank (Sturgis) kept in touch with me. Alex kept in touch with me."
Mr. Fithian: "Mrs. Lorenz, has your attorney explained what perjury before a congressional committee is all about?"
Marita Lorenz: "That is right, yes."
Mr. Fithian: "In any way do you want to change your testimony on these dates?"
Marita Lorenz: "No, I do not."
Mr. Fithian: "There is adequate documentary evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald did not indeed return from the Soviet Union until June of 1962.
Marita Lorenz: "I don't know about that."
Mr. Fithian: "Therefore you could not have met him at the Safehouse in 1960, you could not have seen him in the Everglades in 1960 and 1961, and you could not have taken a picture in those areas and could not have a picture for the dates of that time."
Marita Lorenz: "No?"
Mr. Fithian: "It is not possible."
Marita Lorenz: "I don't know about that."
Mr. Fithian: "Now can you explain to the committee why you gave us this false information as far as dates?"
Marita Lorenz: "I did not give you false information."
Mr. Fithian: "Mrs. Lorenz, I went over your testimony very carefully a moment ago and you assured me that you met Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the Bay of Pigs."
Marita Lorenz: "I did."
Mr. Fithian: "On two occasions."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "Lee Harvey Oswald was in Russia during that entire period."
Marita Lorenz: "I do not know that. I did not know that. The Lee Harvey Oswald that I met was the same in that picture, the one in the Safehouse. the same one that Frank knows. I do not know where he was according to your information. I do not know. I never read up on anything about these theories that are coming out about him."
Mr. Fithian: "This is not a matter of theory."
Marita Lorenz: "I know I am telling the truth. If you don't want it, that's too bad, you know. I am here to gain nothing, you know. Nothing. Nothing at all. You are trying a homicide investigation that should be solved, you know. Don't dispute me or put me on trial."
Mr. Fithian: "Only if we can have full and truthful testimony."
Marita Lorenz: "You have got it. You have it from me. I don't know about the other people. I have nothing to lose and nothing to hide-nothing.
Mr. Fithian: "And it is your testimony that you are certain that the person you met at the Safehouse and at the camps of the Everglades is the same person that you met in Dallas."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes, it is."
Mr. Fithian: "Do you have any explanation for how we come up with two Lee Harvey Oswalds during this period?"
Marita Lorenz: "I have no explanation. I know the man I met; he was a creep. I didn't like him. I don't have to be here at all. I have nothing to gain.
Mr. Fithian: "Thank you. That is all."It seems quite obvious, from the evidence above and more, that Lee Harvey Oswald was intimately involved with the very sorts of anti-Castro activities funded and organized by JM/WAVE.
Bolton Ford -- What REALLY happened there in 1961!
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Steve,
My apologies, but getting up to speed on this Sanchez fellow has, for some reason, been difficult for me. I missed or completely forgot your post near the end of page 2 of this thread which indicated that Oswald argued with Jerry Buchanan because he (Oswald) wanted to embark on a ship destined for an anti-Castro Cuban operation. This makes perfect sense for the anti-Castro Oswald who appeared for nearly two years right here in the U.S. of A. before the pro-Castro Oswald returned from Russia and soon showed up at Shaw’s International Trade Mart in New Orleans.
The two FBI reports on Buchanan of March 30, 1964 and April 30, 1964 tell remarkably different stories about Oswald’s position on Castro, do they not? Almost seems like two different people. My bet is that the March FBI report was post-dated to appear earlier than the April report. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.
John,
I’d completely forgotten about the L’eandes/Landesberg recollection of meeting Oswald at Camp Lejeune. This case is complicated and my brain is getting any younger. More ASAP.