Alistair Briggs

Cheers Robin. From that I am now convinced that the 'white blob'/'left hand' can not be the reflective strips as 1) they would be highly unlikely to make such a 'reflection' and 2) they go much further across the door... Regards

Yes that is true Ray, and that would tie in somewhat with what Sandy is positing as a timeline in his original post, inasmuch as that would put Shelley still on the steps long enough after the shots for Oswald to have left after the shots and been on the steps while Shelley was still there. There are some complications though, one being that Oswald said he left after the encounter with Baker and Truly on the 2nd floor, but Shelley claims that he had left the steps before Baker had gone in the front... I can't see a way to reconcile that.

Sometimes when I look at that image I am convinced that Prayer Man is putting something in his shirt pocket. Sometimes I am convinced that he is using his right hand to open a bottle he is holding in his left hand. Sometimes I'm convinced that that 'left hand' isn't a hand at all and it is actually the radiator behind the door. Sometimes I am comvinced that it is not the radiator but is actually a 'reflective door strip'. Sometimes I am convinced that Prayer Man is actually standing with his arms crossed. Sometimes I think he is standing straight up. Sometimes I think he is leaning on the wall...

A very interesting question indeed. It is not necessary for Oswald to have actually seen Shelley out front to know that he was there, or at least to draw that inference. Perhaps, at the time when people were breaking for lunch, Oswald may have overheard Shelley say he was planning to watch it out front or perhaps he heard someone else say they were going to watch it out front with Shelley. Perhaps when Oswald was on his way to the first floor lunch room he may have seen Shelley out front. Perhaps when Oswald left via the front he over heard someone else mention that Shelley had been on the steps. Perhaps, even, Oswald saw Shelley standing out front at the moment that he was about to go up to the 2nd floor. *That last part there goes on the assumption that Oswald was telling the truth about where he was at the time of the shots and what he did after. On the flip side, if Oswald was the shooter then he clearly couldn't have seen Shelley out front at the time but that doesn't negate the thought that he took the inference that Shelley would be out front from what may have been said earlier. It's impossible to know for sure of course. A follow on question would be if Oswald was out front with Shelley (at any time) talking to each other, why did Shelley not mention it and why indeed did no one else mention it! A further follow on question would be why would Oswald say, that after the shots, and after the meeting with Baker/Truly, that he was out front with Bill Shelley if he couldn't for certain know that Shelley was there at that exact time? (That seems like an incredible risk to take) Regards

Alternatively Oswald was making up the 'standing with Bill Shelley' part. Slight aside, here is an extract from Bugliosi's book 4 days in November... when Fritz was talking with Oswald from 3:40pm onwards... "What part of the building were you in at the time the president was shot?" Fritz quizzes. "I was having lunch about that time on the first floor," Oswald says dryly. "We broke for lunch about noon and I came down and ate." "Where were you when the officer stopped you?" Fritz asks, referring to the story that Roy Truly, the building manager, had told him earlier. "I was on the second floor drinking a Coke when an officer came in," Oswald replies. "There's a soda machine in the lunchroom there. I went up to get a Coke." "Then what did you do?" Fritz prompts. "I left," Oswald says, like it's nothing...... *a short time later..... "Why did you leave the Depository after the shooting?" Fritz asks, returning suddenly to the present. The questions are coming from all angles now, but Oswald handles the changeups with ease. "I went out front and was standing with Bill Shelley," Oswalds tells him, "and after hearing what happened, with all the confusion, I figured there wouldn't be any more work done the rest of the day, so I went home. The company's not that particular about our hours. We don't even punch a clock.! It may be important to look at what Oswald didn't say here as much as it is to look at what he did say. At the time of the shots, Oswald didn't say he was having lunch with anyone, but did say he was having it on the first floor. Oswald did not say he was standing on the front steps, he also did not say he was standing with Shelley at this time. He did say he then went up to the second floor to buy a Coke, thus he couldn't have had the Coke before that point, he does say that after that he left the building. Oswald says before he left he was standing out front with Bill Shelley and implies that it was from talking to Shelley that he made the decision to leave... What is also of interest in this is that Oswald says he was having lunch at the time of the shots, and he also says they broke for lunch about noon. From what other's have said about the breaking for lunch it is reasonable to say that 'about noon' means some time approaching 12 and not after it. This means that Oswald is claiming that he was on the first floor eating lunch from that point until the shots a period of 30+ minutes, during which time he didn't go up and get the Coke, but only after the shots did he do that (per his words). ... Ray, I'm not seeing a contradiction in what Shelley is saying in the two bits you posted there (in your most recent post), The 'I did not see Oswald again after this' is in reference to the seeing him on the first floor at about 11:50am. The line about 'regular duties', 'at that time', whilst worded somewhat awkwardly is in reference to what Oswald had been doing from getting to work in the morning until the time he must have gone down for lunch. So when Shelley then said what you quote... There is no contradiction there. Both times he is saying that the last time he saw Oswald was on the first floor at 11:50am. All things considered then, the question that springs to mind is why would Oswald claim to have been out front with Shelley? If it did happen then surely there would be some verification for it from other people. If it didn't happen why would Oswald take the risk in saying it? An interesting angle to look in to at some point in the future.

*Whilst I was typing the following post, there has been a few more posts posted above, so apologies if this now seems out of order, and indeed apologies if it mentions anything that has just been mentioned, and indeed apologies if it is going in the wrong direction from the above few posts. (It took me too long to type it. ) Anyroads, In Shelley's testimony he stated that... Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody? Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper. Mr. BALL - What was he doing? Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room. Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Eddie Piper's testimony Mr. BALL. You told us that after the shooting you came out onto the floor? Mr. PIPER. That's right. Mr. BALL. And the first people that you saw on the floor after the shooting was who? Mr. PIPER. Mr. Truly and some fellow---I really don't know who it was; like I say, it was some fellow that was with Mr. Truly. Mr. BALL. Some fellow; how was he dressed? Mr. PIPER. Oh, I don't know. Mr. BALL. Was he an officer? Mr. PIPER. Yes; I believe he was an officer. Mr. BALL. A police officer? Mr. PIPER. Yes; a police officer. Mr. BALL. Did he have a white helmet on? Mr. PIPER. No; I don't think so. I didn't pay any attention to it. I was already excited over the shooting or something when he came running into the building. Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do? Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out. Mr. BALL. They were the first ones to go up the steps? Mr. PIPER. That's right. Mr. BALL. Had anybody come down the steps before they went up the steps? Mr. PIPER. No, sir. Mr. BALL. They weren't the first ones to come down? Mr. PIPER. Yes; and when the elevators come down---I really don't know who brought the elevators down, but I know nobody ever come down the steps. Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vicki Adams come down the steps? Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't know about that, if she said she did, it was after I got over here and walked over to the back door. Mr. BALL. Did Vicki Adams come down before Truly and the man went up the steps? Mr. PIPER. No, sir, no, sir; she didn't do it. The last part there of Piper's testimony is quite interesting, he makes the statement that he did not see Vicki Adams come down the steps and infers that it means she must have come down after Truly (and Baker) went up the stairs. But to all intents and purposes we know that Adams came down the steps before Truly and Baker went up them, ergo Piper is wrong on this point, and Adams must have come down the stairs before Piper had a chance to see it happening. It is possible that only a couple of seconds before Piper turned his attention to the stairs that Adams could have come down and moved in a direction that Piper, when turning towards the stairs wouldn't have seen her. Then from looking at what Shelley said about seeing Piper when he came in via tha back door, he says that he saw Piper coming from where he was watching the motorcade - although no time is given here in reference to Shelley seeing Piper, the question that has to be asked is what does 'coming from' mean? This all leads to some interesting questions in regards to the posited '7 minutes' after the shots that Shelley and Lovelady re-entered from the building at the back. Let's assume that Piper is correct and Adams didn't come down until after Truly and Baker went up the stairs, then it must have been a long time after because neither Truly or Baker make mention of passing her on the stairs, yet Adams testimony states that she had made it down off the stairs and to the back door in the region of 90 seconds to 2 minutes - the logical conclusion then is that Adams made it down and away from the stairs without Piper seeing her, and before Truly and Baker ran up the stairs. This also gives something of a timeline for when Truly and Baker started up the stairs - at a time (slightly) after Adams had made it down, so +90seconds to +2minutes from the time of the shots. None of that necessarily detracts from the thought that Shelley and Lovelady re-entered the back of the building 7 minutes after the shots, but it would lead to the conclusion that when Shelley says he saw Piper 'coming from' where he saw the motorcade that would be 5 minutes (approx.) later than when Piper could have 'come from' where he was... ...The testimony of Adams is quite important to this too. In her testimony she states that she saw Shelley and Lovelady at the back door. Some claim that this was inserted in to her testimony to discredit her because her timings on coming down the stairs left no room for the 'official version' of Oswald having the time to get to the 2nd floor - she didn't see or hear him! If that was included to discredit her timing testimony, and it was indeed 7 minutes after the shots that Lovelady/Shelley got to the back of the building, then we have Adams coming down the stairs well after Baker and Truly went up the stairs, but that doesn't really make sense either considering what Adams has said about her timing and indeed what Sandra Styles has said (albeit not in testimony). Again, the timing of Adams doesn't necessarily detract from the Shelley/Lovelady entering after 7 minutes idea (especially if the seeing them was indeed an addition to her testimony). And of course, none of the above necessarily means that Oswald wasn't out on the front steps (as some claim) and/or that the 2nd floor encounter never happened (as some claim). However there is another point of view that could reconcile all of the above people's testimony; it's just that to do so would be to imply that the questioning of both Lovelady and (moreso) Shelley was so sloppy that the two of them weren't able to keep up with what was being asked and were getting confused.

As an aside, regarding Baker's testimony and the 75 - 90 seconds! The 75 - 90 seconds therein mentioned were the times it took in the two trial runs. But look a couple of lines up and Baker says that would be the 'minimum' and he is sure it took longer. A few lines later in his testimony, the following exchange happened; Mr. BELIN - You mentioned the relationship between what we did on March 20 and what actually occurred on November 22. Would you estimate that what we did on March 20 was the maximum or the minimum as for the time you took? Mr. BAKER - I would say it would be the minimum. Mr. BELIN - For instance, on March 20 did we do anything about trying to get through any people on the front steps of the building at all? Did we slow down at all for that? Mr. BAKER - No, sir. Mr. BELIN - Did we slow down at all on March 20 for the time it took you to look over the scene as to what was happening in the area down Elm Street and the Parkway? Mr. BAKER - No, sir. That's clearly two things that would have pushed the time up! By how much I don't know, but from Baker's testimony he is saying that on the actual day the time it took between the shots and 'meeting Oswald' was longer than the two trial runs were. Delving further in to Baker's testimony, they did two trial runs on how long it could have taken a 6th floor sniper to do the shooting and make it down to the 2nd floor lunchroom, including the 'stashing' of the rifle! (I have bolded for emphasis parts I feel are most important here) Mr. BELIN - Did we make any or do any stopwatch tests about any route from the southeast corner of the sixth floor down to the lunchroom? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; we made two test runs. Mr. BELIN - All right. Do you remember what the route was? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; we started on the sixth floor on the east side of the building. Mr. BELIN - All right. Mr. BAKER - We walked down the east wall. Mr. BELIN - We started at that particular corner? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; we started in the southeast corner. Mr. BELIN - All right. We walked down the east wall, you say? Mr. BAKER - That is right. Mr. BELIN - All right, then where did we go? Mr. BAKER - To the north wall and then we walked down the north wall to the west side of where the stairs was. Mr. BELIN - All right, we walked from the southeast corner to the northeast corner? Mr. BAKER - That is right. Mr. BELIN - Then along the northeast corner, around the elevators, do you remember who was with us when we did this? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. There was, it seems to me like his name was John--anyway, he was a Secret Service man. Mr. BELIN - John Howlett. Mr. BAKER - John Howlett. That is right, sir. Mr. BELIN - Did Mr. Howlett simulate anyone putting a gun in any particular place? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; he did. Mr. BELIN - And then what did we do when we got to the where did he do that, do you remember? Mr. BAKER - That would be as we approached the stairway, there were some cases of books on the left- hand side there. Mr. BELIN - All right. And Secret Service Agent Howlett went over to these books and leaned over as if he were putting a rifle there? Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir. Mr. BELIN - Then what did he do? Mr. BAKER - Then we continued on down the stairs. Mr. BELIN - To the lunchroom? Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir. Mr. BELIN - Do you remember how long that took? Mr. BAKER - The first run with normal walking took us a minute and 18 seconds. Mr. BELIN - What about the second time? Mr. BAKER - And the second time we did it at a fast walk which took us a minute and 14 seconds. Mr. BELIN - You saw the stopwatch on all of these timing occasions when it was started and when it was stopped, is that correct? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I did. It does lead to the question of what the time would have been if it had been running! *Aside over.

Robin can I just take this opporunity to say a big thanks to you for your gallery, it is a great resource. Regards

Bart, just a quickie for you, Just read your page http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/victoria-adams/ and also had a look at CE 1381 from those two things I drew the following 4 inferences; Vickie Adams told Barry Ernest that she saw a young African-American employee at the bottom of the stairs and not Shelley/Lovelady. The Vickie Adams FBI statement (CE1381) makes no mention at all of seeing anyone. Sandra Styles told Barry Ernest that she did not see Lovelady or Shelley upon reaching the first floor. Victoria Adams told Barry Ernest that the Shelley/Lovelady passage had been inserted into her testimony. Am I correct to make those inferences? And just for clarification on point 4, is the testimony mentioned there her WC testimony or the statement given to Leavelle? (I ask because when I first read it I presumed it was in reference to her WC testimony, but a couple of sentences later says " No mention was made of the Shelley/Lovelady encounter in any of the other interviews she did with authorities except for the one with Det. Leavelle of the DPD.") Regards.

Good stuff Bart, cheers. I suppose I will have to do a lot more digging here and see what I can find... will probably have to buy the book to satisfy my curiosity. Regards

Cheers Bart, I will read through that link as soon as I can. I wonder if there is an article online that details exactly what Adams says was changed/added to her WC testimony. If there is I can't find it (but that might be because of my lack of skills in finding it). As an aside, just come it popped in to my head, when it comes to the stenographers how accurate are they - in reading the WC testimony of VIckie Adams there is the wrong name used (and it goes unchallanged) and I wonder whether it is an error on the part of Mr Belin or the stenographer (I suppose there is no way of knowing really), but in terms of the 'punctuation' I wonder how accurate they are...

Bart, I have not read the book, so I apologise up front if any of my questions seem obvious/simple/daft... I did read the article in the link earlier which was in regards to it... *The Leavelle statement of Vickie Adams was taken on the 17th of February 1964, her WC testimony was taken on the 7th of April 1964. Is the implication then that the reference to Shelley/Lovelady in her WC testimony was subsequently added because it had been added to Leavelles? And that Adams during her WC testimony made no mention of them?

Bart, could you clarify that I my understanding is correct here, Vickie Adams denied telling Leavelle that she saw Mr Shelley and another employee named Bill?

The way this forum works is if you just link to the photo it automatically embeds it so one doesn't need to upload it from their computer. Robin Unger's gallery is a great place to see images - http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/

(From Robin Unger's collection)

The search funciton on the forum may be of help to you here John, as there are plenty of old threads that discuss these issues. For clarity it may be worth finding things of reference and linking to them so others can check for themselves, or quote things here so it is easier to follow along. I remember reading a lot of older threads from Jack White about the photos and the work he did on them.

John, In the image you posted Kennedy would be diagonally behind Nellie and thus he would be 'obscured' in that image. Nellie's head is hard to see because of the 'sun glare' on the 'window partition' but you can see that is where she is as you can see her pink shoulder. I think it's just the angle of it that is tripping you up a bit. Your expectation is that Jackie should be sitting behind the partially raised window, but in that image it appears, because of the angle, that she is sitting beside it rather than behind it. Remember, both Nellie and Jackie are wearing pink clothes, but it is only Jackie that has a pink hat! Again, here is the clip that Robin Unger posted earlier. That alone should really clear that issue up. Regards

Brad, can you confirm that those two interpretations you mention are in reference to Altgens 6! I only ask because I get the feeling it is in relation to another photo altogether or perhaps I am missing something obvious here. Also I reckon you are mixing me up with John again as it his he that is more interested in the photos than I. Regards

No worries at all Sandy, I enjoy having my ideas challenged (I'm forever challenging my own ideas anyway). I don't think that they lied, but I do think that they were wrong in what they said... well, actually, I am working on a theory (based on their WC testimony only at the moment) that there was something of a 'communication breakdown'. I've not go too far in to it to test it from 'all angles'... knowing my luck it won't lead to anything of note. Regards

*My words you quoted and highlighted - I was being a bit facetious btw (hope that came across ) Alas Sandy I can't give a specific example of either Lovelady or Shelley appearing to be lying. (Without trying to sound overly defensive I feel I should qualify that somewhat by saying that I don't equate being wrong with lying ) Anyroads, earlier on in this thread you gave a timeline for Lovelady/Shelley in which you put their re-entry at the back to 07:00 minutes; earlier on Robert mentioned that Shelley told the FBI that he and Lovelady returned 'about 10 minutes later'. To me, 7 minutes and about 10 minutes can be chalked up to being 'close enough', others may disagree with that. On the 'Oswald leaving TSBD' thread there has been much discussion about the 'timings' of Lovelady/Shelley, and whether or not it is them walking away in the Darnell film, and indeed whether or not the 'running woman' is Calvery. Until (chance would be a fine thing) a resolution to that is determined one way or another then it is difficult to take it from there... I suppose you and I are looking at things from a different perspective then, that's ok with me. I have a few more thoughts running in my head just now but will need to think more before commenting more on this subject here... Regards

John, You avoided my question of asking where you thought the back seat was in the image you posted, you previously stated that it was "sufficiently clear to see there is no one in the back seat.". I asked the question more for clarification as I had the feeling that you may have been 'missreading' the photo... Anyroads, I took that same image and put on some lines to point out where everyone is... Sure Gv. Connally is obscured because of the 'angle' and the 'sun reflection' on the side window and Greer's head, and JFK is also somewhat obscured by Nellie's head... note that the red line I put on indicating Nellie ends on her left shoulder and you can see that is her shoulder by the fact it is pink. Jackie is clearly evident! Both Nellie and Jackie are wearing pink, but only Jackie has a pink hat. My feeling (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is you missread the photo and thought the pink hat belonged to Nellie and as there was no one in the limo behind that position that you felt the back seats were empty? Have a look at what Robin Unger posted previously in this thread... It is clear that the image you posted original came from this. From watching this whole clip any 'confusion' about the lone image should be cleared up... When it comes to lone images, whether it is a photograph or just a still/frame taken from a photo, sometimes the angle of it can hide certain things and from a casual view it can lead to confusion. Objects and reflections can 'blind' us to seeing things. In the image you posted the sun reflection on the window and the window itself is obscuring the view of Nellie. You mentioned the Altgens 6 image... (I've added some more lines to point a couple of things out ) Things to notice. We can see the steering wheel, behind which Greer must be, the flag obscures our view in to that side of the limo and that is why we can't make out Greer, Nellie or Jackie's face. The Altgens 6 photo ties in (approx.) with Zapruder frame 255... The driver is obscured somewhat by the windshields,but Nellie (remember, wearing pink) can clearly be seen as can gov. Connally turned to the side. Note also how Jackie appears to be sitting more erect than JFK, hence why her hat is visible over the top of the windshield in the Altgens 6 photo. Genuinely, with the absolute upmost of respect to you John, may I suggest a bit more prudence in your thinking; missreading some images in a way that can be demonstrably debunked may lead to a lack of credibility for when (if) you do find something of purpose. Reagrds

Brad, that sound very intriguing indeed. *Just to point out, I think you might have meant to address your post to John rather than myself, as it is he that is working on the Muchmore images (my post at the top merely included the image he posted). Regards.

Hopefully you will get it, as it could go a long way to helping.

John, where do you think the back seat of the limo is then to state that it is clear there is no one in the back seat? Not being funny here but I can clearly see who is sitting in the back seat there!

I think it is fair to say that witnesses (across the board) to such a momentous event are likely to get certain details wrong whether in terms of exact timings or exactly what they saw. We can't expect every single person to see everything or correctly remember everything, so there has to be some lee-way there. Having said that though, I mean there is being wrong and then there is being wrong... Shelley and Lovelady seem to be all over the place with their timings and what they did/saw it just can't be chalked up to 'simple errors' on their part... Was it yourself who is currently on the case of trying to find out the exact height of Shelley?