John Butler

Tracy, I am not really interested in Two Landesbergs. I will admit to an interest in Steve Landesberg the actor because of the information that Landesberg and Oswald were together in New York in 1961 and that he was a Marine. Is it your opinion that info is false?

Jim, Thanks for your response. It is always great to hear from you. It is the hair pattern. You can't find another photo of Oswald, Harvey or Lee, that has that hair pattern. The mouth and eyes may be touched up with paint. There is extra shadow under the chin. The chin itself is broad and seems to be narrowed to be a narrower chin. Altogether, any image I have been able to find of this photo is of low quality. Generally, that is a sign that low quality may be hiding photo editing. Particularly, when you pick up these images from Google Images. I really don't have a good source for imagery. Many of the photos on the internet have been edited one way or another. Older first generation copies may not have this editing. Since, I don't have 1st gen copies I make this statement lightly. As far as the two Landesbergs go, I have read some literature on that. It didn't seem to be that important. I'm not saying Steve Landesberg is an Oswald Project member. I am just voicing a wild thought. Some times these wild thoughts pay off, most of the time not. Generally, I don't toss the idea away until I have looked at it for some time. A good example of this kind of research, taking a long time to review something, can be exemplified by Altgens 7 where after 3 years of looking at the photo I noticed that there are no motorbikes in the photo and there should be at that time according to other media. It is just an odd thought I had in reading Bullock's description of "Ozzie". Again I will say there are no Oswald photos with glasses. After saying things like that, someone comes up and shows me to be wrong. No problem, Crow has been on the menu many times.

David Joseph, Your posting is an excellent piece of work. I have seen photos I have not seen before. Your posting of the above and John Pic's response to it has sent me into a loop. If John Pic did not recognize this high school student as his brother Lee Oswald then who is this student? Is there any chance that John Pic was pulling people's legs on this or other identifications of his brother Lee? Could you post a hi-res of the Oswald standing by a creek or stream bank without a shirt. The one that is labelled 1960-61 5'8" and 135 lbs?

David, Thanks for the posting alert. history-matters.com is a good source for tracking down witness statements.

Jim, Thanks for your response. I don't know how to look at the Oswald you posted. This photo has always stumped me. It is out of tune with most other photos of Oswald (I'm using Oswald here for both Lee and Harvey). The photo has been edited to some extent. So, I don't know. Here's something really out of the wild. When I read Bullock's description of "Ozzie" I immediately saw Steve Landesberg. I don't know Landesberg. I don't know if he was a Marine. I don't know if he was with Oswald at Atsugi. It is a wild leap with little to back it up. Landesberg was said to be in New York with Lee Oswald in 1961 while Harvey was in Minsk. Landesberg has a similar appearance to Lee Oswald. His individual features can be described similarly to Lee Oswald. It is not close if you compare photos. He has earlobes where the lobeless Lee Oswald does not. I not so sure of my identification of lobeless, high school yearbook Lee Oswald due to something David Josephs posted. If John Pic is not identifying Lee Oswald, his brother, from the various photos presented to him by the Warren Commission then that can be considered an agreement with my position that Lee Oswald was almost entirely edited out of the photo record. Many of the photos of Lee were edited into Harvey. It is just the kind of thing cover up specialists would come up with. They had control of nearly all of those photos. I'll have to think about this. Anyway thanks again.

Jim Hargrove, Nowhere have I seen any other reference to an Oswald wearing glasses. Nowhere have I seen any photos of an Oswald wearing glasses. Is this the only reference you know of saying anything about glasses? Lee Oswald is hard to find in the visual record. It is my opinion that he has been edited out. Most everything we see is Harvey Oswald or Lee edited into Harvey. Once again I have not seen anything in photos or films showing an Oswald with glasses.

Ron and Steve, I use software called Cyberlink Power DVD 16. I got the idea from Robin Unger. What Power DVD allows you to do is watch a video frame by frame. Interesting frames I capture by using Screen Capture available in Windows. I also use Corel Paintshop Pro to do any work such as magnification or sharpening. There is a fade correction feature that really works well wth old films and photos. I hope this is of some help.

Mark Bell filmed from the northwest corner of Houston and Main. He was on an elevated position with about 3 other people. They were standing on part of the monument structure. You can see this in a Jay Skaggs photo taken from the northeast corner. The photo also shows Phil and Rosemary Willis. The google image is an aerial image converted to ground level. It is not showing things correctly. You can not take the Same image at ground level at that corner of Main and Houston.

In Joseph's overlay of Bell and Dilliard the bottom part of Dilliard has been cut off or a least not included in the overlay. By cutting off the bottom of the photo one gets a false perspective of where this photo was taken. From where the photo was taken it is physically impossible to see the other side of the railroad bridge. The railroad bridge is over 100 ft. wide. From that position you can not see the guard rail on the other side. This mistake is in Altgens 7, Dilliard, and Bell. In Bell there is at least an excuse. Bell shot from an elevated position on Houston St. Altgens and Dilliard were down at street level where it is impossible to see the guard rail on the west side. Once again there is a timing problem. The people filmed by Dilliard may be as much 2 to 5 minutes after the assassination. The motorcade was broken into groups by the crowd in front of the TSBD and the Houston and Elm intersection surged into the street after the assassination. Another group from Main St. and from the southwest corner of Elm and Houston surged into the street crossing to the Grassy Knoll. By the time the camera cars were approaching the underpass some time had passed. How much is somewhat debatable. Other than that, I don't see the point of Mr. Joseph's artwork. Maybe he will explain what he is doing with the overlay?

Steve, I used that photo since it is one of the clearer frames showing 3 motorbikes on the other side of the railroad bridge. Mark Bell has frames that show no one on the bridge then just a few frames later it matches pretty much Altgens 7. The distance between these frames is about a second or so. Later frames show a blue-grey passenger train just coming off of the bridge. It is the same train we see later in the train area that Robert Hughes filmed.

Mr. Josephs, Officer Foster changed his testimony at a later date. Robert Hughes and Wilma Bond show where Foster was when the presidential limousine went by. A train and no one on the bridge is confirmed by four films I have listed in an earlier post. From your Anti-Cointelpro agent

Steve, That is a frame that has been edited. If your interested I have just posted two references for Ron Bulman that explains my thinking exactly. This is an old argument I did long ago on posts to this forum. Thanks for your response.

Ron, I really don't want to go over this a second or third time. I have made my thoughts on the railroad workers and Altgens 7 known on earlier posts going back a year or two. If you are interested in what I have said check out the following: http://jfkrunningthegauntlet.com/2017/10/16/the-ghost-train-of-dealey-plaza-part-i/ http://jfkrunningthegauntlet.com/2017/10/21/the-ghost-train-of-dealey-plaza-part-ii/ http://jfkrunningthegauntlet.com/2018/04/01/mass-perjury-at-the-triple-underpass/

Steve, Bell and McIntyre don't show that. If the motorbikes moved ahead as shown by their absence in Altgens 7 then they would not be shown in Bell and McIntyre. You can look at the visual records and you won't see anything unless your mind and eye has been trained in image discrimination and you are in the right receptive mode. A good example is Zapruder frame 157. There are 8 or so bits of photo editing in that frame. Those who don't want to see generally just say "I don't see that." Another good example is the 19 people in what I call Mannequin Row along north Elm Street between the light pole and the Stemmons sign. Most people think that group of people is real. The same goes with the notion of 5 or, 3 at least, motorbike cops missing in Altgens 7. I don't or can't see is a sufficient answer.

Mr. Harper, No, they, the railroad men, were not there when the motorcade passed through. This is contrary to Mr. Joseph’s position. He often gets things wrong due to timing. He has posted a nice panorama of the lower end of Dealey Plaza. Unfortunately, it is mostly of photos after the motorcade passed through. The only photo allegedly showing what happened down there is Altgens 7 at the time the motorcade passed through. Altgens 7 is a total fraud. It has taken me 3 years of off and on study of Altgens 7 to realize there are no motorbike cops in it when there should be. I don’t think anyone else has noticed this. I noticed it because of a recent study of the McIntyre Photo and the Bell film. I have written several times about what was going on at the Triple Underpass when the presidential limousine. Altgens 7 shows 1 policeman and 10 or so railroad workers who were not there. It does not show a passenger / freight train moving through the area at the time of the assassination. And, now I can add a third indicator of the 5 missing motorbike cops. If you quibble about 5 then what about the 3 we see in McIntyre and Bell? 3 Dallas policemen said there was a train there during the assassination. One did not at first but, later changed his story and admitted a train was there. Officer J. W. Foster Officer J. C. White Officer Earle Brown There are 4 films and one photo that relate to this. First, I will deal with the Wilma Bond photo 6 (I think- not sure of the number). In this she shows the real position of Officer Foster and the 10 railroad workers. They are just off the bridge standing above the grass sloping up to the last part of the bridge. The 4 films show no one on the bridge and a train there. These are: Robert Hughes John Martin Mark Bell Malcom Couch. You are correct. No self-respecting police officer would have allowed such. It is simply a matter of CYA. In other words you need to cover your rear end in situations like that. Blame does move downward in situations that go wrong. There is more to be said about the fake Altgens 7.

Yeah, I thought that for the longest time. But, if you look close there is a gap between his hands wider than a, as we use to say, pop bottle unless he was holding it end to end horizontally. All of the images I can see (and that is one heck of a problem with the poor imagery available) it is something wider, perhaps wider than a bottle. To me this is an important idea. I am being led into a wild, speculation every time I look at PM in Weigman, Darnell, and John Martin. The speculation has to do with what he is holding. Buell Frazier mentioned in the interview no one had a camera. Or, at least he didn't notice. That looked suspiciously like a practiced answer. There is no way to confirm that with a yeah or nay. I also noted that Frazier omitted PM or Oswald being there on the landing with him. Now, that is suspicious since 2 of the 3 films put a person there we call PM. If you are interested I'll type out my wild speculation in detail. I don't think it does any harm to the PM notion. Thanks for your earlier reply.

Andrej, Excellent point as always. 5'9". And, who was that height as measured at his death? PM/Harvey Oswald. The only Oswald you see in most media. Lee's imaginary is almost entirely removed from the record. Do you have an opinion on what PM / Oswald is holding in his hands?

Bart Kamp, PM has something in his hands. I use to think it was a coke. I now think it is a camera. The frame above informs the notion. There seems to be some sort of glow in his hands or more correctly between his hands. He appears to be holding a 2-handed camera holder used with cameras in those days to steady the camera. His hands are always positioned for such a device in Weigman, Darnell, and John Martin. What's you opinion?

Well, what about those missing motorbikes. I don't mean the two that are associated with the alleged Lead Motorcycle Policemen. There are only 3 shown in the McIntyre Photo and 3 shown in the Bell Film. I mean the 5 missing motorbikes in the Altgens 7 photo. If you make a continuum of Altgens 7, a frame from the Bell film showing the Triple Underpass, and the McIntyre Photo you will arrive at a sequence that is just a few seconds in length with the images of one following the other. First there would be Altgens 7, the Bell frame, and then the McIntyre photo. What you will see is that the Altgens 7 photo does not have any motorbikes moving toward the Stemmons Freeway. Since the Jesse Curry vehicle is just about to enter under the Triple Underpass in the photo we should see 5 motorcycles of the Lead Motorcycle Policemen. But, we don't. The reason is that Atlgens 7 is of the same quality as Altgens 5 and Altgens 6. They are fakes. We then see 3 motorbikes in Bell and 3 motorbikes in McIntryre. Where is the 5 missing motorbikes in Altgens 7. Failing that where is the 3 motorbikes we see in the other media. This little exercise tells us we don't actually know what happened down there as the motorcade passed through.

Yeah, it may not even be the Bell film. It could be a military photographer film disguised as the Bell Film. I have just got to say this thread needs to be kept on the front page for awhile. There are great people saying great things here, even the ones you don't care much for. There is more information on the motorcade, both pro and con, found anywhere that should surely interest most folks. It is well worth the time for someone to review this tread. I encourage casual viewers to take the time to read this read in depth.

I need to make a typing correction. No one has noticed it but it needs to be fixed as a matter of honesty. For some unknown, moronic reason I often times time a q or a g and, a g or a q. Couple that with a faulty memory then you have this. The mistake is Sgt. S. G. Bellah. It should be Sgt. S. Q. Bellah or Sgt. Samuel Q. Bellah. So, when you read in the comments Sgt. S. G. Bellah it should be Sgt. S. Q. Bellah. With that out of the way you can blow up this photo and see a very vague image of Dallas Police Officer J. C. White. But, you don't see what he saw that day. This is another reason some folks including myself have suspicions about this photo. There is no train on the Triple Underpass that Officer White testified too. White said he saw a long, slow freight train pass through and he saw or heard nothing about the assassination. This has been discussed several times on this forum I believe. It could be the reason that you don't see a train there is the Triple Underpass is something like 100 to 120 ft. wide. I train on a track near the east side probably would not be visible. There was a train on the tracks during the assassination and you can see that train in the following: 1. Mark Bell Film 2. John Martin Film 3. Malcom Couch Film 4. Robert Hughes Film 5. Wilma Bond photo Rather than repeat writing anything else you can go to this site for more info: http://jfkrunningthegauntlet.com/2017/10/16/the-ghost-train-of-dealey-plaza-part-i/

DVP, I have already answered that question in my comments. Again. The action of the 3 motorbikes in the Bell film is no more than a couple of seconds from the action of the 3 motorbikes in the McIntyre photo. They need to be in tune. 3 bikes shown in Bell and 3 bikes shown in McIntyre. Only 3 bikes are shown in Bell and no sign of 5 motorbikes. There should be 5 there since they are some distance from the turn. The question is not that important. It is just a distraction. The real question is who is the outside bike rider in McIntyre. Is it Sgt. Stavis Ellis of the Lead Motorcycles or is it Sgt. S. G. Bellah of the Advance Motorcycles. On that question depends a reading of McIntyre as fake or not. Maybe someone out there can go back and look at that older thread which has Robin Unger's posts and determine who that is?

I see no one has taken the challenge to identify the Motorcycle Policemen in the McIntyre photo. There’s probably a good reason for that. I ran across this topic in older threads. Another proof the Zapruder film has been faked Guest James H. Fetzer, January 22, 2012 in JFK Assassination Debate (This is a really interesting discussion. Folks should go back and review this from 2012) In this thread on page 4 of the comments Robin Unger posted this photo and identification. Posted January 25, 2012 Looking back the other way In McIntire Chaney is seen still inside the underpass.  In a later post of this photo he has a closeup of the outside rider identified as Sgt. Ellis. The Bell film is mentioned as information on the points they were making. I went back and reviewed the Bell film frame by frame. 3 motorcycle riders are shown and not 5 anywhere in the film. There should be 5 shown somewhere there since they were not near the turn or shouldn’t be from the time sequence between Bell and McIntyre. Bell shows the 3 motorcycle riders in a peculiar fashion. They are shown in one spot past the triple underpass as being stationary. The presidential limousine and accompanying vehicles move down Elm Street and pass under the Triple Underpass. Meanwhile, the 3 motorbikes do not appear to be moving. I could accept Robin Unger’s analysis if I knew what source he used to identify Sgt. Ellis. Did someone recognize the outside rider as Sgt. Ellis or did Unger just assume as many others have this is a remnant of the 5 Lead Motorcycle Policeman and provide Lead Motorcycle names. Since, there are only 3 motorcycle cops shown then I am back to wondering is this the Advanced or Lead Motorcycle Policemen? The peculiar fashion they are shown in Bell raises suspicions. This is an important point. If Unger is correct, then this a true picture of events in Dealey Plaza. If not, then it is just another fake. The first assumption may be the correct one since I can find no obvious signs of photo editing. This is a really sharp and clear photo that can be magnified and looked at closely. Other than the questionable identification of the 3 motorbike riders there are no obvious alterations. If there is then they would be very well done and professional.

David Von Pein, I am going to withdraw my agreement with your position. New information has led to another conclusion. Again, I have to correct something I wrote. Let's go back to what was originally said, “I did find where the 5 Lead Motorcycles did separate into two groups in the Marie Muchmore film. The other assassination films are uninformative. When the Lead motorbikes turned onto Houston Street from Main Street they separate into two groups. First, there were 3 motorbikes making the turn. They were closely followed by the other two. This offers weak evidence that this was there procedure for making the turns that they needed to make. First, there would be a group of 3 bikes and then there would be two bikes. If this is case then McIntyre does not show a group of two following the group of 3. David Von Pein is saying that the missing two turned first towards the Stemmons Freeway. There may be away to solve this small argument. Identify who the 3 motorbike cops are: Advance Motorcycle Policemen: Sgt. S. G. Bellah Glen C. McBride J. S. Garrick Lead Motorcycle Policemen: Leon E. Grey E. D. “Buddy” Brewer Harold B. Freeman W. G. Lumpkin Sgt. Stavis Ellis The two outside men in both formations (screen right) are: Glen McBride Sgt. Stavis Ellis” What needs to be changed is Glen McBride to Sgt. S. G. Bellah. In the Zapruder film in Z frame 63 the outside rider in the Advanced Motorcycle Policemen is not Glen McBride but, Sgt. S. G. Bellah. You can see that the outside rider has stripes or chevrons on his sleeve indicating he is a Sgt. He is not Glen McBride. This changes what I said earlier about the 3 motorbike cops being the Lead Motorcycle Policemen. It is now possible that the outside rider in the McIntyre photo is not Sgt. Stavis Ellis but, maybe Sgt. S. G. Bellah. The outside rider in the motorbike formation in the photo McIntyre (photo right) needs to be identified between Sgts. Stavis Ellis and S. G. Bellah. This could be the Advanced Motorcycle Policemen with Sgt. S. G. Bellah as the outside rider. This restores the notion that this maybe an altered photo. Can anyone help with this identification? Identifying this Motorcycle Policemen will end this contention.

Sorry, I have to correct something I wrote. I did find where the 5 Lead Motorcycles did separate into two groups in the Marie Muchmore film. The other assassination films are uninformative. When the Lead motorbikes turned onto Houston Street from Main Street they separate into two groups. First, there were 3 motorbikes making the turn. They were closely followed by the other two. This offers weak evidence that this was there procedure for making the turns that they needed to make. First, there would be a group of 3 bikes and then there would be two bikes. If this is case then McIntyre does not show a group of two following the group of 3. David Von Pein is saying that the missing two turned first towards the Stemmons Freeway. There may be away to solve this small argument. Identify who the 3 motorbike cops are: Advance Motorcycle Policemen: Sgt. S. G. Bellah Glen C. McBride J. S. Garrick Lead Motorcycle Policemen: Leon E. Grey E. D. “Buddy” Brewer Harold B. Freeman W. G. Lumpkin Sgt. Stavis Ellis The two outside men in both formations (screen right) are: Glen C. McBride Sgt. Stavis Ellis The outside man in McIntyre looks like Glen C. McBride. Is there anyone still around who can identify these men? Maybe Mary Moorman?