John Butler

This is something that began to bug me after thinking about Prayer Man and Doorway Man. Some other things like witness statements have added to this irritation. So, is there anyone out there who is interested and has anything to add to the following things about Prayer Man and the Doorway Man leading to the idea of there being two Oswalds present during the assassination Doorway Man: It is my opinion that I don’t know who the Doorway Man is and you don’t either. That’s a bold statement and is in need of further explaining. Roy Truly said on 11-25-63 that Doorway Man looked like Oswald but, was really Billy Lovelady. Billy Lovelady identified himself as Doorway Man. That should have ended the argument. The Doorway Man figure looks like Billy Lovelady unless you look closely. It is my contention that a face mask has been added to the Doorway Man figure and we will never really know who it is. It could be Lee Harvey Oswald or an Oswald double that either doesn’t look like or looks to much like Lee Harvey Oswald. Hence, the need for a face mask. We do know that this Oswald figure was in the doorway of the TSBD during or directly after the assassination due to Altgens 6 which is not the most reliable piece of evidence. The Doorway Man figure does not have time to be anywhere else. Whoever he is he can’t be upstairs shooting the President. Prayer Man: It really doesn’t matter what Prayer Man was doing in the TSBD doorway. The events of Weigman and Darnell are after the assassination occurred. There is little relevance or evidence to the notion that Prayer Man was talking with or facing Buell Frazier. Why would it matter at this point? All we can say truthfully at this point is that he is in the doorway. One of the only relevances I can think of for Prayer Man is he is in the doorway when Officer Marion Baker and Roy Truly (according to Roy) enter the building. If he is in the doorway he is not likely to beat Baker and Truly to the 2nd floor break room or the 3rd or 4th floor area. The John Martin film shows what Prayer Man was doing during the assassination. He was on the Elm Street curb west of the TSBD doorway filming the presidential vehicle as it passed by. There is about 4 or 5 seconds in the film containing this fact. There is about, I would estimate, 70 frames. These frames show that Prayer Man had a large camera with a flash attachment. There are scenes that show a flash possibly greater than a sun reflection. Prayer Man mostly takes photos with a horizontal perspective but, switches to a vertical perspective when the Secret Service limousine passes by. Being on the street, he is not upstairs shooting the President. Doorway Man and Prayer Man: Neither one of these two can be on the sixth floor shooting President Kennedy. It is not physically possible. The important question here is are these two the same man. My answer for this in no. Why? Prayer Man is west of the TSBD doorway on Elm Street (John Martin) and Doorway man is in the doorway (Altgens 6) at the same time. It is impossible for these two men to be one man. Their clothes are the same, or appear to be, but, the way they wear their clothes is different in the Prayer Man and Doorway Man scenes. Prayer Man has his shirt buttoned and his sleeves rolled up above his elbows. Doorway Man does not have his sleeves rolled up and has his shirt partially unbuttoned. Two men wearing the same clothes differently is an adequate explanation for two Oswalds at the same time. Witnesses: Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig said he saw Oswald leave the building, run down the hill, and get into a light-colored station wagon. Other witnesses saw Oswald get on a bus and later take a taxi when he left the TSBD. This conflict raises the question were there two men described as Lee Harvey Oswald leaving the TSBD. Deputy Roger Craig later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he saw get into the station wagon. According to Officer Baker and Roy Truly they did not mention seeing Oswald or an Oswald look alike, Prayer Man, in the TSBD doorway when they entered the TSBD. There are two stories about what they saw in the TSBD. Baker and Truly’s story diverge in their earliest statements about who they saw in the TSBD. Officer Baker- In his 11-22-63 statement did not say he saw Oswald in the 2nd floor break room. Instead he saw a man that Roy Truly identified as an employee on the 3rd floor or 4th floor. Baker gave a description of the man. The question is why was this man never identified? Roy Truly knew who he was. Roy Truly- In his statement to the FBI on 11-22-63 does not mention a man on the 3rd or 4th floor. He mentions the 2nd floor break room story. Oswald is seen there by Baker and Truly. Does this mean there were two Oswalds there and Roy Truly along with the FBI move the 3rd or 4th floor Oswald to the 2nd floor break room. This doesn’t make sense as a speculation because having Oswald closer to the 6th floor should be the ideal. Most witnesses have their testimony taken by the local authorities that day. FBI witness statements are generally after the statements taken by the local authorities. Why is Roy Truly’s first statement taken by the FBI and not Dallas authorities? Could the 2nd floor break room story be cooked up by Truly and the FBI? Does anyone have anything that relates to the idea of two Oswalds at the TSBD? The Kennedy assassination literature is vast and impossible to know all of it.

Bravo!

An answer for Sandy Larsen: I went back and reviewed the Martin film’s sequence showing Prayer Man. It is about 4 seconds in length and that would be about 70 frames if the film moved at Zapruder speed. That segment shows Prayer Man on the Elm Street curb as the presidential limousine passes by. The limo is hard to see since what is show is just the top and the occupant’s heads. However, at the end of the sequence are several good shots of the limo as it passes the monument walkway unto El Street. In those frames you can see President Kennedy’s head (the imagery is really not that good). In this frame you can clearly the limo, Prayer Man and, two Motorcycle Policemen as the motorcade goes by.

I'm having problems with photobucket not pasting the right photo here. Will try with another post. There is about 5 seconds worth of frames similar to this in Martin. If his camera ran about like Zapruder then that would be about 90 to 100 frames. I'm still having problems with photobucket posting the wrong photo and posting the same photo over an over again. Sorry Sandy, If you want to see more than this then go to my website. This photo will probably not be here long due to my subscription at photobucket expiring. I am not going to renew after this sorry performance.

I am not an old forum hand. I’ve been on this site only this year. It seems to me that the topic Oswald Leaving TSBD? is the longest and most debated of topics. 228 pages of comments and discussion is too much for me to read. I tried scanning through some of the discussion looking for any mention of the John Martin film and some of the frames that show the Prayer Man. I didn’t find what I was looking for. If I missed something like what I am going to say next then just dismiss what I am saying. It seems that most folks agree that the Prayer Man is Oswald. The Weigman film shows Prayer Man in the doorway of the TSBD after the assassination. Fine. But, the point should be where was he during the assassination? The John Martin film has the answer. There are several frames in the film that show the Prayer Man on Elm Street west of the TSBD doorway and on the curb with a camera (or an object in his hands held like a camera). The presidential limousine is just coming into the picture. Oswald was on Elm Street filming the President and not up in the Sniper’s Nest shooting the President. For a better accounting of this go to my website jfkrunningthegauntlet.com and read the article The Prayer Man and John Martin. Marrion Baker is a xxxx. That is just plain and simple. All you have to do is read his statement of 11-22-63 statement given on the day of the assassination when his memory was the freshest. AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT THE STATE OF TEXAS COUNTY OF DALLAS BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket. s/ M. L. Baker SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963 /s/ Mary Rattan Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas Does this sound at all like the Baker/Oswald confrontation in the 2nd floor break room?

The Babushka Lady- Fact or Fiction Hi, I’m back. I wanted to let you folks know I have started a blog about some of the things I have discovered about the Kennedy assassination. Currently, there is a 3 part article on the Babushka Lady being published. The website is: http://jfkrunningthegauntlet.com/ In this article there is new information or a different way to look at the Babushka Lady. Essentially, the Babushka Lady is Jack White’s Lady in Blue and at the same time the two are two different individuals. Regardless, both were never on Elm Street during the assassination of President Kennedy. Their appearance there in the various films and photos is a fantasy given life by the assassination cover up photo editors. The greater mystery is not who the Babushka Lady is but, why does she replace the Lady in Blue. What is being covered up by this replacement? Here is something totally different and profoundly shocking. This is a frame from the Bob Yeargan, AMIPA film. Couple this frame, with others from the film, and what Jackie Kennedy said about the assassination and you will have something radically different. What I see in this film frame is President Kennedy being propelled forward, the air from his lungs being violently ejected forcing his cheeks to bulge outward, and there is a squint-eyed pained grimace on his face. His hands are clawing at the air. He has been shot in the back. This is in accord with the strange statements Jackie Kennedy made about the assassination. This occurred just west of the NW corner of Market Street on Main Street en route to the turn onto Houston Street.

Mr. Gordon, Robin Unger's modification of the Lee Harvey Oswald passport and our conversation about it has disappeared from: Lee Harvey Oswald's passport photo real or not? I will not participate in a rigged game. Remove my membership from this forum.

Michael, More like a Ron White skit. Cheers,

Michael, Cheers,

Hi David, I'm really glad I haven't heard from you in awhile, months. Have you been saving up your venom and spite? I can see the Mary Moorman notion is still bothering you. You must have seen my ideas as really bothersome. Cointelpro agent? I can see whose losing control here. Do you really think there are such people on this site? What's to learn about a faked frame such as the one in my last post. You guys whip out camera angles and focus like a six-shooter when someone doesn't agree with you. Or, you see something that is threatening to your position. Go talk to Robin Unger about "FAKE" composites? your really have just fallen off the banana-boat, haven't you... ". Maybe you can start helping him warp and distort things that I post. Oh, you have already done that. The moderators are not powerless. They can shut me down at anytime they choose for any reason and I won't complain. You and Unger prove the "fake composite" charges to them. Your an old hand here. Report it. And, while your at it report yourself for breaking the forum rules. I've decided not to do that anymore. People need to read posts such as yours so that they can clearly see what type of person you are Your gush of vituperative invective is something I dealt with many times with middle school children. They grow out of it. Seems you haven't.

A Modern Conspiracy? I have already addressed this issue once. However, it needs to be touched upon again. Robin Unger Super Member Members 3,557 posts Gender:Male Location:Australia Posted Saturday at 02:07 PM (edited) · Report post John Butler Why are you using FAKE composites and trying to pass them of as a single frame This is obviously a composite of two separate frames, you can see the line across the image where the two frames have been joined. The Cut Apart Policeman comes from Robert Groden’s Assassination Films DVD, 1995. I picked up this copy when I visited Dealey Plaza in July, 2015. Groden signed the copy and then became surly and uncommunicative after some of my remarks concerning the authenticity of Zapruder. I could not find the frame I used in other film versions. I looked for it in the YouTube film Robert Hughes and I couldn’t find it there or Ungers version. I hope that’s just a case of not being able to find it. Here is another copy of the frame from Groden taken with different DVD software. I trust Groden's film even though the tech is old and the film viewing is not the best. But, I do believe it is accurate and above board. The NFV in the corner of every frame is for New Frontier Video. I guess that’s Groden’s trademark? I hope this eases Unger’s blood pressure so his head doesn’t explode from false outrage. lolff

From the Muchmore gifs that keep on giving Both of these men are from the Marie Muchmore film. There is a big difference in their film appearance. This should have been posted in another topic but, we are dealing with oddities in this post. Someone claimed Willis' see through nature shown above is just motion blurring. The man on the right can be considered motion blurring to some extant. Willis is a different problem because you can add to the see through nature the straight, flat head which indicates a cutout. He is an inserted object here.

From the Muchmore gifs that keep on giving Phillip Willis taking slide 3: The next is self-explanatory:

John Martin And The Transparent Policeman or See Through Police Helmet Motion blurring? Film failure? Technical Difficulty? Static? Something hidden?

Thanks Chris, There seems to be only one policeman on the corner. I would really like to have all the frames of that bit of Hughes. No big yellow stripes. No sgt.?

Some one said "The construction site you mention is pretty far down from the plaza. The best way to look at it is with this 3D image of the plaza. How could someone way down past the building be able to fire and hit the limo from that position? It's not possible." I was at the National Rifle Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio in the summer of 1967. I saw lots of 10 and 12 year old girls firing 1903 Springfields and M1 Garands at 1000 yard targets. They weren't using scopes and were successful in their shooting. The buildings on North Houston appear to be far away but, they are not.

Chris, "I am fully aware that I used a frame which was not the same as the frame you used. My point is (and was) that the officer at the corner of Main and Houston was "real", and not a "cut apart policeman", and was actually DPD Sgt. Harkness. The unstated basis for your claim that "my" frame was an edit and yours was not is, to say the very least, difficult to understand." Go back and read my post. I said both frames are edited, one successfully and one not. You show in your post Sgt. Harkness with his big yellow sergeant's stripes. Where are they in the frame I posted. Were there two policemen there? Thanks Chris, I appreciate your final comments.

Unger, I took the frame I used straight from Groden's DVD assassination films 1995, hence the low quality. Glad you verified that it is a composite frame. I knew we would eventually agree on something. Thanks for that wonderful graphic showing the splicing of the films. No, Robin I don't play with my material as you do. Your work is to often bent toward your bias. I haven't posted much you haven't tried to warp and distort. And, now I am accused of what you routinely do? That's what the Greeks called hubris. There appears to be two policemen on that corner. Once again it's a matter of big yellow stripes.

James DiEugenio Super Member Members 2,341 posts Gender:Male Posted Wednesday at 05:32 PM · Report post Larry is exactly right about Spence. But he understates it. In my book, Reclaiming Parkland, I spend a full chapter--21 pages-- on the London phony trial and fully critique Spence's performance. Spence's big mistake was first participating in the thing, since as I show, it clearly favored the prosecution. The producer, Mark Redhead, favored Bugliosi. I mean, Sylvia Odio is not there? Give me a break. Bugliosi was allowed to use the NAA? I mean even back then there had been questions about it. The prosecution called twice as many witnesses as the defense. Plus Bugliosi was allowed to drag in the Tippit shooting? I mean, then why not have Spence bring in the murder of Oswald and how his client was murdered with the cooperation of the Dallas police? When VB was on his book tour, he mentioned how Spence had studied the case for six months with help from a couple of assitants in his law office. What a joke. That is about as bad as Posner's two years. This case is not able to be even partly digested in five years. And no one can master it in even ten years. It is simply beyond the reach of any one person since it demands expertise in too many disciplines. Spence thought he could get by with his country demeanor and eloquence. But he didn't fully understand the circumstances. With what we have today, after the ARRB, there is no way any prepared attorney could lose this case. I agree with Mr. DiEugenio. Spence's script would not and did not allow him to win. He could have been talking about quick draws in a Wyoming court and it would not have mattered to the outcome. The outcome was preordained.

Sorry Ray, Far too often I get snarky when I shouldn't. I have explained to you as much as the material warrants. To me, Kennedy's expression looks like one of distress. Pain. Coupled with what could be a bullet hole in the windshield gives rise to suspicion that something might be amiss. This is something that is totally at odds with any other thing in the visual record. As an oddity, it should be explored. But, then again the visual record is filled with peculiarities.

Brad, I always thought prayerman held a camera in his hand.

Ray, Go back and read what I said. That's the problem with some of you fellows. You concentrate on what you perceive as a weakness to the exclusion of other things. You are welcome to your interpretation. It is not mine. Jack White spoke long ago about the "visually impaired".

Over active imagination, that seem to be the current charge of incompetency. We'll, it is certainly better than past descriptions. Maybe, I am getting to you guys. Did you see the question mark in the title?

Ray, He is bent sideways looking down. Look at the expression on his face. Jackie is reaching toward him. All this gives the appearance of something going on. This is not the only frame in the sequence. Take Robin Unger's Muchmore gif and separate into individual frames.

And now, from the Muchmore gif that keeps on giving: The Bullet Hole In The Windshield On Houston Street? There is a place on the windshield of the limousine that is equivalent to the same location as the bullet hole in the windshield seen in Altgens 6. The same things that apply to Algens 6 can be said here. Maybe a bug hit the windshield. Maybe it is just sunlight reflection. Maybe it is just light from a flashbulb as some is taking a picture. Maybe it is a reflection from a black woman holding a newspaper. It could be lots of things. But, it looks like a bullet hole in the windshield. President Kennedy appears to be in some distress and Jackie seems concerned. This is what bullet holes in a windshield look like: I arrived there as part of a QRF in time to see the bodies taken from the truck. This was my first encounter with an L shaped ambush and it is a classic example of the effectiveness of the technique. Another forum topic brought this memory to mind. I thought I would combine the two notions here. Not all rounds make a hole in a windshield that goes through. An AK-47 made these holes in this truck windshield on Easter Sunday in April, 1968 at about 10:00 pm in Korea in the DMZ. I put this quote in here as an example of government truthfulness during the 1960’s about the problems in Korea. “The three-quarter-ton truck, lights on and flying a white flag in accordance with armistice rules, carried three men in the cab and three others in the back under cover of the canvas top, according to Praeger” This is a lie. The truck carried a10 man guard detail enroute to the Joint Security Area at Pamunjom in the DMZ. Eight soldiers were killed that night and two survived. The newspapers, such as Stars and Stripes, reported four dead.