John Butler

11 hours ago, Ron Ege said:

All this, without even mentioning the added problem of reacquiring the target (JFK) through the misaligned scope, after working the somewhat stubborn bolt.  Ever look at something through binoculars, move off the "target" just a wee bit and then attempt to very quickly reacquire it?  Expert sniper, perhaps.  LHO, hardly likely.

Ron,

Your dead on.  If you have ever watched the old hunting shows, or youtube videos on shooting coyotes or other game, those guys seem to take forever to sight in using scopes.  And, never at a moving target.

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Oh, but you have gotten it backwards. Virtually all the evidence points to a 1:06 shooting. The 1:18 ambulance document is the oddball. So it has the incorrect time, not the death certificate.

I believe that the ambulance document was originally marked 1:08, but was changed to 1:18 so as not to conflict with the revised time of shooting, 1:16.

Here are the TRUE times:  Tippit was shot at 1:06, the ambulance was called at 1:08, the ambulance arrived at 1:10, and the body arrived at the hospital at 1:15, at which time Tippit was pronounced DOA.

 

Sandy,

Excellent post on the timeline.  I am going to make a copy of it.  Timelines are key investigative tools well worth doing.  I was going to ask you about the ambulance times.  But, you have covered that now. 

Still, the time that the ambulance left the funeral home and arrived at the Tippit crime scene needs a time.  There was roughly two minutes at the crime scene and then on to the Methodist Hospital.  The trip to the Methodist Hospital and the unloading of Tipping and getting him into the Emergency Room and a doctor, a quick assessment of Tippit, and a death call at 1:15.  All of this surely took some time.

I am suggesting 10 minutes for the whole event.  1:15 is the documented time of death and must be called by a doctor.  This is documentation that would be accepted in court.  If you add 10 minutes to the 1:18 time the ambulance driver said, then the time of arrival and the Hospital would be 1:28. That is far past any clock error or variance in different clocks.

Folks keep saying that there is a lot of variances in different watches and clocks in times in the past.  I don't think so, there were accurate timepieces in those days.  And, I would expect a hospital to have an accurate clock for this kind of purpose.     

21 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

Good point PB, it gets even odder when you throw Douglass’s Butch Burroughs into the mix - there’s definitely hearsay (eyesay?) of two suspicious Oswaldian types in the theatre that day….oh no, have I unexpectedly prompted another H&L debate? Please…no no no 🫣

Hi Sean,

I hope not.  Other than the recent covid experiences and after problems related, I have not posted anything.  Secondarily, not posting anything on H&L is also something I am not doing.  Harvey and Lee has been well discussed by Armstrong, Josephs, Hargrove, and Larsen.  There are literally thousands of facts pointing to the spy doubles, H&L.

Jeremy and Jonathan, save your ink.  It will be wasted since I am not going to reply to any of your loose reasoning, insults and ad hominem.  I never thought I would have seen it, but Jim Hargrove finally gave up trying to have a discussion with those two.        

17 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I assume that but am not that familiar with the issue.

What little info I have about markings and chain of custody says:

1.  Darrell C. Tomlinson found the bullet on a stretcher (of a young boy?  Not Connally's?)

2.  SS Agent Robert Frazier was given the bullet by Tomlinson

3.  Agent Frazier gave the bullet to James Rowley, Director of the Secret Service

4.  James Rowley gave the bullet to FBI Agent Elmer Todd

5.  Elmer Todd takes the bullet to the FBI Crime Lab.  He gives it to FBI Crime Lab.

6.  I don't know who Killian is.  FBI Crime Lab Personnel?

Later in the year(next year) Agens Bardwell and Odum visit Darrell Tomlison and O. P. Wright at Parkland with the bullet.  Tomlinson and O. P. Wright cannot "positively identify" the bullet as the same one they had seen earlier.

I would expect to see something like:

1. Rober Frazier's initials

2.  Elmer Todd's initials

3. Killian's initials

4.  Bardwell and Odum- some evidence they handled the bullet- bullet initials or paper work

18 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

EDIT: I refer to the darker areas as shadows but they are really just reflecting less light due to the angle of the gouge changing at the demarcation of darker and lighter areas.

  I think a most confusing part of understanding these two images is the reversed shadows. The top image illuminates the left side and leaves the right side darker because it sits at a slightly different angle to the light. The bottom photo is taken from farther right and illuminates the top right side and puts the left side of the ridge in shadow.
That left side is out of focus and the shadow line in not clear but it appears to lean a bit more than the bottom demarcation. That would be the effect of the camera being a little more to the right in the bottom image.
     In the bottom photo the far right side of the mark has an almost vertical edge. In the top photo that same edge leans maybe 15 degrees to the left.
   The bottom photo is looking straight at that vertical edge and so you can't see the top of it is leaning directly away from the camera. It is leaning away from the camera because the bullet gets smaller as you get closer to the tip.
 But in the top photo you see that vertical edge from the side. The bullet narrows towards the top and the slightly oblique angle reveals that. That is why it appears to lean left more in the top photo.
 The mark having multiple angled surfaces makes the lighting of different parts change form one photo to the other. Beyond that there are maybe a dozen markers that match between the two images.

Chris,

Are there any other markings such as other initials on the bullet?  Shouldn't there be markings by Secret Service, FBI lab, or other police folks who handled the bullet before Elmer Todd?

On 6/26/2022 at 12:37 PM, Gene Kelly said:

 

Edited Sunday at 04:12 PM by Gene Kelly

To me this note doesn't look like Oswald's writing in Russian.  It looks like someone is trying to copy his style of writing.  Compare this to Oswald's very, very strange autobiography note.

A is the Oswald autobigraphy note and B the alleged Oswald note.  They don't appear to be the same writing.  Oswald uses in his autobiography note long, complicated Russian words.  This is lacking in the B note.  To me, the handwriting doesn't appear to be the same, but close in appearance.  This might indicate someone familiar with his writing, Marina, Ruth Paine, or an intelligence service.

On 6/10/2022 at 2:32 PM, Pat Speer said:

Yes, by all means, repeat the myth as often as possible. 

40 medical professionals on hand and close up enact a mythic event description.  Furthermore, they repeat these myths repeatedly.  Why?  That's simple.  It's the truth that can't be hidden.

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

I realise that the cult's three remaining believers are just making up doctrine as they go along, but surely someone should have sorted all of this out long ago.

Jim,

Should we price robes and candles on Amazon.  If we had some we could go out at midnight and chant Harvey and Lee theory.  Nah!!!

When Jeremy lacks substantive claims, he will turn to insults.  It is a sign he has nothing to say except to repeat cointelpro tactics. 

As far as being called "the world's most photo analyst", that just says Jeremy recognizes what is being shown by me and can't come to terms with it.  I can't reply in turn because my posts will be hidden.

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

John - why did the OSS recruit a Russian-speaking three-year-old, and how did the CIA end up with someone whose Russian was worse than that of a native adult speaker?

My version of where Harvey came from is a bit different from most H & L theorists.  I believe Harvey was a native of Russia somewhere in the area of Minsk.  His real name may have been Alex Hidell since he favored Alex or Alec.  He was taken from there when he was young due to German military aggression.  He may even have been Jewish (this is questionable) and saved from the camps or death pits.

Somewhere around 1944 or 1945 Harvey was taken to Switzerland under a program run by Allen Dulles.  Dulles first recognized the Germans would lose the war in early 1943 and the next big enemy would be the Russians.  He recognized in would be helpful to have a pool of potential spies from immigrants. 

So, Harvey is 5 or 6 years old when sent to the US.  The route was through Switzerland to France to Spain and then to New York City.  There he was handed over to a communist couple, Emil and Grace Gardos, FBI informants.  They were Hungarian and likely told to keep Harvey's Russian workable. 

Harvey is in New York from 1944-1945 to 1947.  In 1947 he shows up in Texas in school.  A lot of things were happening with communists at that time.  In 1945 President Truman slammed the door on the OSS.  Wild Bill Donovan was fired and the organization reduced to a subdepartment.  Why?  The OSS was heavily infiltrated with Soviet agents.  Partly with the cooperation of Donovan so that the Soviets, our ally at the time, would know what was going on.

The Tippit phone call gives us a look at Harvey and the Gardos.  An unknown woman called Mrs. Tippit and gave information about Harvey and the Grados and others.  The questions are who was this woman and how did she know the facts of Harvey and the Gardos?

IMO, this was Elizabeth Bentley.  She would have known it all.  By 1945 she was in charge of all Soviet intelligence operations on the east coast.  However, she ran afoul of the old timers in Moscow.  She defected to the FBI.  Her main interrogator was William Harvey, then an FBI agent.  When Truman learned of the communist infiltration of the OSS he fired Donovan and axed the agency.            

11 hours ago, Steven Kossor said:

In 2013, I stood on the same pedestal that Abraham Zapruder occupied when he filmed the assassination of JFK in Dealey Plaza.  Zapruder's film took just 26 seconds to capture the action of the limo moving at about 11 mph down the same patch of street that I recorded.  In my video, the cars were traveling at an average of about 35 miles per hour, and I recorded two passes down Elm Street in a total of 42 seconds -- about 20 seconds per pass.  This means that, if the cars I recorded had been traveling at just 11 mph down Elm Street, it should have taken much, much longer for me to record their passage (about three times longer, in fact).  This indicates that Zapruder's film should have taken 52 seconds, or longer, to capture the action on Elm Street between Houston Street and the triple overpass with the limo traveling at just 11 mph for most of the trip.  Allowing for a much greater speed in the last few seconds would still require more than 26 seconds overall to film the JFK assassination.  Unless the film was edited.  Food for thought.... 

Here's the URL of my video on YouTube:  https://youtu.be/bvsf6bZrzKk

Steven,

More food for thought.  Others have noticed this also.  I did a very simple and unscientific count of the time to travel down Elm.  This would be 26 seconds plus 21 seconds for a total of 47 seconds.  David Josephs did a better count, I believe, at 15 seconds.  That would be 41 seconds.  The missing time is in the Zapruder Gap.  There is simply no way to account for that gap without editing.  There are no startup and shutdown frames.  Zapruder said he did not quit filming.

14 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

This was clearly, in my mind at least, part of the patsyfication project. (How's that for a word?)

Excellent.  Here's one for Jeremy.  Doppelgangerfication.

6 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

It cannot compete with a large number of reports by the Parkland surgeons who had time to observe the head wound from a close distance and for a long periods of minutes.

Well said Andrej!

23 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I may know.... Many of us believe the immediate intention of the JFK assassination plotters was to provoke an invasion of Cuba. With his assignment to Russia, his staged Fair Play for Cuba activities, and his commie-loving history dating back to the Marine Corps, it was simple to depict Oswald as a communist with ties to Castro.

Other factors may well have been instrumental in the setting up of Harvey.  Since he had ties to both the CIA and the FBI, it could be assumed in advance that government investigators, especially J. Edgar Hoover, would easily be coaxed into a full scale and elaborate cover-up.

It seems to me that a pre-selected patsy was absolutely critical to ensure the plotters could escape detection and prosecution.  Without one, the search for them surely would have been relentless.  And for that role, someone was needed who had demonstrated an ability to follow orders, even difficult ones, in order to be in the right place at the right time.  (Think what Oswald did to stop the Soviet authorities from kicking him out of Russia.  It must have been tough to slit his wrist and fake that suicide attempt.)

Jim,

I have always wondered when the decision to do the JFKA was made or perhaps finalized.  I speculate that would be sometime prior to mid-October 1962.  This is when Harvey went to work for the photo folks at Jaggers, Chile, and Stovall.  While there he memorized the entire map of Cuba in minute detail from satellite photos.  There was more than likely some operation in the works for Cuba. 

But, I feel this was dropped when the JFKA needed a patsy to work.  Harvey being sent to New Orleans to work in a anti-Castro/pro-Castro role was the detail that could confirm this. 

56 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

It is a simple matter to look at children and estimate how they will appear when grown.  Just look at the childhood pictures of movie stars.  It is often easy to match the child with the adult.  Women may be a bit more difficult since they're more inclined to change hairstyles, etc., but for men, at least, it is pretty clear.

These two photos of Harvey and Lee are separated into Harvey and Lee based upon the character traits I developed off of the mug shot of Harvey at the DPD.  Lee's character traits are picked up from various photos.

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

The OSS ceased to exist on 20 September 1945. Shortly after that, some of its functions were taken over by the CIA.

You need to go back and read earlier threads on this subject.  Or, maybe go over to the Harvey and Lee site and read the info there.  It has been fully discussed.  From the above statement you seem to know little to nothing of that time period.  Do you know why Truman disbanded the OSS?  Do you know the history of the transition of the OSS to the CIA in 1947? 

Do you know of the Tippit call?  How about the government order to use immigrants in intelligence operations? 

53 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

For some reason, John either decided not to use it or perhaps forgot about it.

Jim,

I neither forgot, nor knew about John A's article at Baylor.  The information I had is in a word doc.  I took this info from the internet.  But, someone one knew about John A's info.  What I used and what's at Baylor is essentially the same.  

57 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Mrs. Steenbarger described the man as having light to sand hair, light eyes, with sharpshooter medals on his uniform, a name plate saying “Lee Oswald” and a slight Southern accent.

This and another observation about Lee Oswald bothered me.  This is not exactly the "correct" description of Lee Oswald.  He had darker hair.  Could be he was down south in Florida and the sun and water affected his hair and lightened it due to wind and water.  That happens.  The other alternative takes me into the outer rings of my speculations.  It is a 3rd Oswald.  That doesn't work for me since one should take the simplest answer and keep it simple.  This was Lee Oswald.

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

He seemed tense and didn’t say much; he gripped the arms of the seat so tightly that his knuckles were white. She thought he was merely afraid of flying. He was quite taciturn and actually seemed hostile when she tried to talk to him.

This sounds like a person's first flight on an airplane.  Or, a fear of flying.  Wouldn't that be something.  Oswald spends his whole military career around airplanes and ends up being afraid to fly.  Maybe he had a bad experience with David Ferrie at air cadet training.  The taciturn and surliness reminds me of that others describe Oswald in the same manner, particularly Marita Lorenz.

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

For example, he continuously forgets that the use of imposters and look-alikes is common in spycraft.

I liked this comment a lot.  I have little information on this.  I'll make a copy and keep it for reference.  Thanks.  

On 6/8/2022 at 4:24 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Here's an interesting challenge. It may be difficult for John to do, but he should at least give it a try:

• For each 'Harvey and Lee' claim, search honestly for all the alternative explanations that have been offered over the years. You'll be the first 'Harvey and Lee' believer to do this!

Jeremy,

Why should I do that?  You have given insufficient reason to challenge the already factual information and go hunting for alternatives.  People who do that are simply looking for a way to avoid uncomfortable truths and are really looking to satisify and justify their own biases.  Let's take one of the lesser known events in that list.  Lee Oswald's MATS flight to Germany mid-October, 1959.

Harvey Oswald is in Finland and the Soviet Union from Oct. 10, 1959 to Oct. 21, 1959 in other words mid-October.  There are plenty of records to show that.

Lee's taking a plane to Germany is documented by this:

Oswald takes MATs Flight to Defect?

MATS flight from McGuire (McGuire Air Force Base/ Fort Dix, New Jersey) to Germany – October 1959 w/ Lee Oswald, USMC

In September 1978, a chief investigator for the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) had an assistant contact Louisea Steenbarger – of Peru, Indiana, to see what information she wanted to relay in regards to their investigation of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

The assistant made the phone call and talked to Louise Steenbarger and wrote this report:

KENNEDY
OUTSIDE CONTACT REPORT
DATE 9-26-78 TIME

I.                    Identifying Information: Name Louise Steenbarger Telphone 317-172-1771Address 128 East Sixth Street, Peru, Indiana Type of Contact – x Telephone ___ Person
 

II.                 Summary of   Contact:

Pursuant to Cliff Fenton’s request, I called Mrs. Steenbarger because she contacted the Committee to give information.

Mrs. Steenbarger related the following:

In Mid-October 1959 her husband, Maurice Eugene Steenbarger, was stationed with the Air Force in Phalsbourg France. He husband was a civilian auditor with the Auditor General. At that time she left her home in Marion, Indiana with her eight year old son, David (dob 11/29/51) to join her husband in France. Her travel was arranged through the military and she was issued travel orders. She left from Bunker Hill Base (now called Grissom) in Indiana and flew to MacGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey. MacGuire was the point of departure for military transport flights were called MATS.

On the airplane her son sat in the window seat and she sat in the middle. The man sitting in the aisle seat said his name was Lee Oswald; she doesn’t remember him using a middle name. He seemed tense and didn’t say much; he gripped the arms of the seat so tightly that his knuckles were white. She thought he was merely afraid of flying. He was quite taciturn and actually seemed hostile when she tried to talk to him.

The young man relaxed after they had a meal. He seemed to her like he had a lot of pent-up emotion. He said he had served in Japan and the Philippines. He was wearing a Marine Corps uniform. He said he had fallen in love with a Japanese girl and had been imprisoned in either Japan or the Philippines because he wanted to marry her.said he was being shipped to Germany by the military; the departure had been so hastily arranged that he had not even been able to see his mother.

Mrs. Steenbarger described the man as having light to sand hair, light eyes, with sharpshooter medals on his uniform, a name plate saying “Lee Oswald” and a slight Southern accent.

He said his father was named Robert E. Lee Oswald. He talked about putting down the American system. He said he was being shipped to Germany because they needed him right away and that he had a skill he could use there, but she doesn’t recall if he specified what skill.

The plane landed in Preswick in Scotland. Mrs. Steenbarger and her son deplaned to use the restroom. Oswald said he was ill. He stood at a distance and seemed to be watching her coldly and suspiciously. After that, he didn’t speak to her any more.

When they got back on the plane the man named Oswald sat across the isle from her and her son and a couple of rows up. Another man in nice civilian clothing sat next to her. He let a cigarette dangle on the armrest but appeared distracted and did not smoke it. There may have been other civilians on the plane, but she is not sure.

The man named Oswald told her that he was still under surveillance from his trouble with the military police. The man sitting next to her after Oswald moved behaved oddly that she wondered if he was in fact the person who was watching Oswald.

Their plane landed at either Rhine/Maine or Frnakfurt.  That was the last time she saw the man named Oswald. She did not notice how he left the airfield.

Mrs. Steenbarger offered that her travel arrangements and possibly a manifest of that flight could be gotten from the Air Force. She provided the following vital statistics on her and her husband:

Lola Louise Steenbarger

Dob 3/19/23

I think there was shooting on Houston Street in front of the Court Records Building.  8 films go haywire there with blurred and confusing images where nothing can be discerned of what is happening there or there are missing frames such as Hughes.  8 films with problems in the same spot and time is way beyond coincidence.  Toni Glover said as she and her mother stood on the monument near the intersection, the president turned the corner and his head exploded.   

17 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yeah, all six of these guys look alike IMO. You can see in those photos where their hair is shorter that they all have the same hairline... with a broad widows peak. In contrast, the Oswald shot by Ruby has a pointed widows peak.

Yes, and he had that early on.  As early as 1958.  In later photos this widow's peak is hard to notice due to his hair cut.  He used comb overs to hide that receding hairline.  When his hair was neatly combed the hair recession was somewhat difficult to see.  There are photos at the DPS where his hair is awry probably due to a beat down.  In these photos the recession is seen better.

Sandy,

I especially like this comparison.

Even if one has little facial recognition skills you should be able to tell the difference between these two.

Recognizing Oswalds is complicated by photo editing.  There are various reasons for that.  One is providing a passport that both could use.  Secondly, disguising Lee Oswald who has to disappear and never be seen.  Every photo of Lee Oswald had to be transformed into Harvey, the man shot at the DPD.  They rarely missed the opportunity.  Well, except for things that were published such as newspapers and yearbooks.

It's my opinion that you will find bits of both Lee and Harvey in a lot of photos.   

18 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

Thanks for this excellent list.  The USMC section of H&L is extraordinarily detailed and it is hard to keep all of it in mind without reviewing the text again and again.  Lists like the one above are very helpful, and the way you think outside the box, mixing John A's work with your own research, is often fascinating.  I'm not always convinced, but every bit of it is worth pursuing.  Thanks again!

Jim,

Thanks for the comment.

Did you notice that our anti-fan on the forum, Jeremey, didn't touch that list?  He just did his usual reason less  sound and fury.  He has a habit of ignoring the hard to refute things.  I invite Jeremy to challenge those.  I just gave a short indication of the events.  More can be said about the facts including times, witnesses, and events.  

If I had gone back to David's timeline and mine timeline, I could have listed many more.  Those are just what popped into my head at the time.  Your right there is way too many facts concerning Harvey and Lee to keep up with without going back to the reference sources.  And, more important, at my age, remembering those facts correctly.

Earlier on I re-posted what Lee Oswald would know that would be of interest to the Soviets.  Harvey would also have this knowledge.  It would be provided by his masters.  According to one source, Harvey had an exceptional memory.  While working at Jaggers, Chile, Stovall he memorized the information contained on the satellite photos of Cuba that they were be processed for the CIA and other defense agencies.  This included all the rivers, creeks, towns, roads, airports, and on and on for the whole island of Cuba. I would guess that at that time there was some project involving Cuba in the works.

Harvey was not a chump, wannabe spy.  He was involved in top level intelligence projects from the very beginning.  For example, Harvey was the single American living in Minsk.  None before him.  There were tourists that came through, but none lived there.  Minsk had the factory he was assigned to as a supervisor.  There were 5,000 workers there.  It was a significant part of the Russian defense industry.  Knowing about that industry was critical.  That was just one part of his mission to Russia.  I'm with Mae Brussels and Slyvia Meagher on the U2 disruption of the peace talks in 1960 which they believe, and I believe was his primary mission. 

Here's where I go off the beaten track.  If both Oswalds were in Russia, Lee the technical one, could be at the factory helping out the Russians with their radar and missile defense vis-a-vis the U2 while Harvey is elsewhere setting up spy networks.  It is just an idea that pops up from time to time.             

On 5/18/2022 at 4:27 PM, Jonathan Cohen said:

So every other researcher who has spent years working on this case is wrong, and you, John Butler, have managed to discern hitherto unknown truths about the assassination that nobody else has?

Pretty much.

On 5/17/2022 at 5:39 PM, Michael Crane said:

Maybe,just maybe...JFK was not killed in the kill zone from behind.He advanced too far forward & had to get hit by the back-up team in front.Of course this is just a thought at this point & is not an opinion yet.

I think the real shooting happened in front of the Court Records Building on Houston, the turn into the intersection of Houston and Elm, and in front of the TSBD.  There is a slight indication of shooting on Main Street.  That is not my opinion or thought.  It is what many witnesses said.  

This doesn't preclude later shooting down by the Grassy Knoll.  I think JFK's back brace kept him erect and bobbing around so that it appeared that there was no effect from the shooting and had to be redone by another shooting team.

Danny Arce had a hand radio, as seen in Altgens 6, giving directions to the shooters.  How many other spotters there is unknown.  There could have been one per shooting team.  Chauncy Holt also had a radio commo device.    

5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

My point, which John does not seem to have grasped, was that everything in his imaginary doppelganger's background would apply at least as well to an actual American.

I grasp your point with no difficulty.  I just don't agree with you.  You think if you keep repeating the same un-factual arguments, or fact less arguments based upon fact less claims that someone will believe what you say if repeated enough.  That type of argument dies in the face of the facts.  There were two Oswalds.  Doppelgangers, if you like.  One was an immigrant, and the other was an American born citizen. 

John Armstrong, Jim Hargrove, David Josephs, and Sandy Larsen have covered the early years of Harvey and Lee so well and to the point where I really didn't have much interest there because I could not help or contribute much of anything to help.  

In other areas I was able to contribute things I thought were missed or perhaps more correctly a different interpretation of things already found by Armstrong, et al.  I know more about the time Harvey and Lee were in the service and Oswald's trip to Russia.  From that brief period there are many examples of the Doppelganger spy duo. 

1.  Lee Oswald is at a Marine training camp on the east coast in the summer of 1956 and Harvey is still in school in Ft. Worth

2.  Harvey Oswald joins the Marines in Oct. 1956.  PFC Lee Oswald is in California at a Marine base working in Aircraft Maintenance and Repair.  A couple of interesting things here.  Lee Oswald is trained in Aircraft Maintenance and Repair and is promoted to PFC before he joins the Marines in Oct. 1956.

3.  Lee Oswald goes for further training in Avionics in the spring of 1957 in Florida and I believe Mississippi.  Harvey receives his training in radar from the US Army in two classes.  This is what he says in a personal note.

4.  Lee Oswald goes to Japan in 1957 and is assigned to Atsugi Naval Base which is the largest CIA operation in the Orient.  Harvey disappears after being in California.  I believe he went AWOL in New Orleans for a year.  Or, perhaps this is when he received US Army training.

5.  Lee Oswald is at Atsugi, Japan while Harvey is in Taiwan.  

6.  Lee Oswald is at Atsugi, Japan while Harvey is at Iwakuni, Japan about 400 miles away.

7.  Lee Oswald leaves the service in March, 1959.  Harvey leaves the service in September, 1959.

8.  Harvey goes to Russia.  Lee Oswald essentially disappears for an extensive period.

9.  Harvey is in Finland or Russia in October, 1959.  Lee is on a MATS flight to Germany in mid-October, 1959.

10. Harvey is in Russia in the fall of 1959.  According to one source Lee is also in Russia in the fall of 1959 and early 1960 visiting Leningrad and Moscow and other places in Europe.

11.  Harvey is in Russia and Lee is in Florida creeping out Marita Lorenz at an anti-Castro training camp.

12.  Harvey is in Russia and Lee is in New Orleans bargaining to buy trucks in early 1961.

There are more simultaneous appearances of Harvey and Lee in two different places.  What is listed should be enough to make the point.

5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Exactly! The need for a cover story is why, according to the 'Harvey and Lee' theory, the false defector needed to have a plausible American background.

The cover story had two aspects.  First, there is who Harvey Oswald was actually.  And secondly, what did he have to offer.  Here is something I did some time back and might be interesting enough to re-read:

What did Lee Oswald know that would interest the Soviets. 

First off, one thing needs to be made clear.  The Soviets would have interrogated Oswald when he defected into the Soviet Union.  The Russians claimed that they didn’t.  Some like Peter Vronsky say this in Lee Harvey Oswald in Russia to justify the Russians not interrogating Oswald.

“The problem is that we give the KGB more credit than they deserve. Like any other government bureaucracy, the KGB was frequently riddled with jurisdictional disputes, laziness, departmental rivalry, and miscommunication where one hand did not know what the other was doing.  One of the most frequent comments heard from the KGB officials on the issue of Oswald is:  if only they had known the details of Oswald's military experience, they would have taken a greater interest in him.  But they did not know, or at least, not the right KGB people knew. The KGB was no more efficient than any other Cold War superpower intelligence service - which is saying that largely they were incompetent.”

This is simply not believable.  Vronsky also mentions that intelligence gathering was not a function of the KGB and then says its main responsibility was internal security.  Well, does that mean they would not suspect Oswald of being a spy?  Nonsense.

Oswald was a US defector and as such the reason for his defection could be a threat to the internal security of the Soviet Union. And, this the reason why Oswald would have been interrogated extensively.  That interrogation would have continued in a more exhaustive fashion if they got a hint that he may be an intelligence agent.   

The Russians knew Lee Oswald from his time in Japan at Atsugi Naval Station.  Atsugi was the biggest CIA/Military Intelligence post in Asia.  There were many super-secret intelligence projects operating there when Lee Oswald was there.  Harvey as far as I know was never there.

At Atsugi Lee Oswald came into contact with Russian foreign agents in Japan.  Presumably, this information would be passed on to the KGB or GRU.  Some think Oswald arranged his defection while in Japan.

Dick Russell in The Man Who Knew To Much indicates there were other adventures engaged in by Lee Oswald.  This involves a plan to convince a Soviet Colonel, Col. Nicolai Eroshkin, to defect to the US side.  Oswald was also in communication with a Soviet spy, Professor Chikao Fujisawa, in this effort to entice the Soviet Colonel to defect.

Jack Swike in his book, The Missing Chapter, says a Marine named Ron Crawley who knew Oswald said he got his money from black marketeering and this allowed him to frequent expensive clubs such as the Queen Bee in Tokyo.  Swike also relates that Oswald had met with Japanese and Chinese communists and this may have been the source of his income for prostitution.

These incidents indicate Soviet intelligence and security knew Oswald before his defection.  When Oswald showed up in Moscow as a defector he may have been already known.

So, what did Oswald know?

"Oswald had access to the location of all bases in the west coast areas, all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication code of entering and exiting the ADIZ, which stand for Air Defense Identification Zone. He knew the range of our radar. He knew the range of our radio. And he knew the range of surrounding units' radio and radar...  There are some things which he knew on which he received instructions that there is no way of changing, such as the MPS 16 height-finder radar gear... He had also been schooled on a piece of machinery call a TPX-1, which is used to transfer radio--radar and radio signals over a great distance. Radar is very susceptible to homing missiles, and this piece of equipment is used to put your radar antenna several miles away, and relay the information back to your site which you hope is relatively safe. He had been schooled on this.

Warren Commission Hearings Volume 8 p. 298

What’s missing from this is that Oswald also knew this information for other important bases in the Pacific- the Philippines, South China Seas, Taiwan, and Atsugi, Japan.

Lee Oswald was trained in by the Marines in two areas.  These are the Aviation Electronics Operator class and the Aircraft Control and Warning Operator Course. 

The duties of an Aviation Electronics Operator are Aircraft Avionics Technicians, V-22, install, remove, inspect, test, maintain, and repair systems, components, and ancillary equipment of installed Aircraft Communications/Navigation/Electrical Systems to include Deceptive Electronic Countermeasures (DECM) Systems at the OMA level.

This fits in with a note from Harvey and Lee site:

“In the fall of 1956, while HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were stationed at San Diego, LEE Oswald was at the Marine Corps Air Facility at El Toro, CA, 10 miles south of Camp Pendleton. It was in El Toro that Sergeant Wallace Ransberger first met Private First Class LEE Oswald, and a year later associated with him at Atsugi, Japan. Ransberger and LEE Oswald were assigned to the same unit and their duties were to furnish repair parts for vehicles and generators.”

There is something of interest to note here.  Lee Oswald in a PFC in the fall of 1956.  This is not possible if he joined the Marines in late Oct., 1956.  This indicates there is a hidden record for Lee Oswald who may have joined the Marines at age 16 in about March, 1956 or shortly thereafter.  It also indicates he was working in this field before he received the training for it. 

Lee Oswald must have had some competence in electronics and mechanical repair to be assigned as indicated in the Harvey and Lee note.  Compare that to Harvey’s record of mechanical incompetence in not being able to drive a car.  This notion will become more important as we continue with this essay.

The Russians would have been interested in any knowledge that could be obtained from Oswald.  Anything about Atsugi, Japan would have been of great interest to the Soviets.  What was available at Atsugi, Japan that Oswald might have had knowledge of interest. 

Atsugi Naval Air Station was the largest CIA operation in the Pacific.  Many other intelligence agencies were there in including the ONI and Air Force Intelligence.

At Atsugi were many complex super-secret projects.  The first to be discussed will be MK-Ultra and its main unit at Atsugi.  This was the largest CIA operation of about 1,000 people who were stationed at Atsugi.  They were known as the Joint Technical Advisory Group.

H. E. Jensen in a book called Atsugi Assassins talks about this group and Lee Oswald.  This is the book description from Amazon.com:

“Atsugi Assassins looks at the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and their much denied MKULTRA mind-control program. Used unknowingly as a test subject, the author offers insights into how Lee Harvey Oswald was also victimized by the MKULTRA that operated at Atsugi Naval Air Station in Japan. Jensen also exposes the lies and cover-up by the Warren Commission and others, including former CIA Director Allen Dulles and President Lyndon Johnson, in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. This book exonerates Oswald and shows that he was an honorable Marine and died in what he thought was the line of duty.”

Oswald may have been introduced to MKULTRA in New York as a teenager in the early 1950s.

The CIA had a U2 spy plane unit at Atsugi, Japan.  The first U2s were deployed to Atsugi, Japan in March, 1957 before Lee Oswald came to Japan. 

There are people who say that Lee Oswald did not know anything about the U2 spy plane and therefore could not have told the Russians anything about its characteristics.  That is not true.  Lee Oswald was involved with radar operation and the U2 from the time he arrived in Japan and until he left the service.  As noted earlier he had been trained as an Aviation Electronics Operator.  This includes aircraft maintenance and repair.

Here is an important point that most people overlook when they think about Oswald and the U2.  Lee Oswald was assigned to the same barracks as the U2 flight and maintenance crew.  How hard would it be to infiltrate this group and learn what secrets he could?  After all he had worked in the same area and it would be easy to befriend the U2 crew and discuss work.  How about a beer after work?  And, then in discussion mention your work in aircraft maintenance.  So, how about yours?

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The theory hypothesizes a number of those things you listed. But a hypothesis isn't a claim. It's a possibility that fits the known data.

When you state that these hypotheses are inconsistent with what the CIA would do, you are making a claim... as opposed to a hypothesis. Which is the reason why I ask what qualifies you to make such claims.

Sandy,

That's our man.  Jeremy must have worked for the CIA?  Well, otherwise he wouldn't be making such preposterous claims on a continual basis.  Should we ask him?  Or, is this line of thinking too offensive?

Back to reality, I don't think that is the case.  Jeremy demonstrates a lack of Spy vs Spy understanding.  A fake defector such as Harvey Oswald would have to pass the muster of the KGB in order to stay in Russia and not be charged with being a spy.  His cover story would have stand up to questioning by the KGB.

His cover story would have to pass muster and he would need to offer the Soviets something to be attractive to them.  Lee Harvey Oswald's entire military career had to do with aircraft maintenance and repair, radar technology, U2 information, and the defense information concerning the American defense of the Pacific Ocean, including Japan, Philippines, Taiwan, and the western coast of the US. 

The idea that the Soviets were not interested in the information Oswald had is ludicrous.  If they paid thousands of dollars for a field manual on drill and ceremony then they would certainly be interested in Oswald's information.