John Butler

Just now, Dan Rice said:

I thought that the name Lee Henry Oswald in the mole hunt.

The name Harvey Lee Oswald had to come from somewhere.  As far as finding out from the DPD, that's a no go.  It had to come from a higher source.  I wasn't sure about that being a mole hunt name.  Thanks for that.

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I care, because his being an Lner indicates that he uses poor judgement

That can be said of other "Lner".  I tried reading Dale Myer, but was turned off by reading things I didn't believe in about the JFKA.

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

It’s kind of weird that no mail forwarding instructions were ever released for both the Elsbeth and W. Neely addresses.

Lieutenant Jack Revill was gathering information on Oswald and prepared a list of TSBD employees and their addresses. On Oswald's employment application at the TSBD, and his W-4 form, he listed his address as 2515 W. 5th Street, Irving, Texas 41. But Lieutenant Revill listed his name as Harvey Lee Oswald and his address as 605 Elsbeth. Oswald had not lived on Elsbeth since March 1963 and there was nothing related to the Elsbeth address in TSBD records.42 1t remains unknown where Lieutenant Revill obtained this address, although the address may have come from Oswald's library card. (H&L p. 901)

The handwritten note on the document below is John A’s and says, “The same transposed name and erroneous address found in military intel files!”

Jim,

Thanks for your note.  The older I get the fuzzier are the details of things I haven't looked at in a while.  Was there ever an address of 602 Bently associated with Oswald?  

1 hour ago, David Lifton said:

Short answer: "No."  Here's the key (as stated in B.E.):  "An empty casket at the Bethesda front entrance, means  (or implies) an empty casket upon take-off from Dallas."  So in answer to your question: only one source of transportation; but. . .; but there was "slight of hand" (at Dallas' Love Field) after the Dallas coffin arrived (from Parkland Hospital; at 2:05 PM CST) and prior to take-off from Love Field (at 2:48 PM PST). That's when LBJ delayed the take-off, saying he must be sworn in first. LBJ then called everyone to the more forward area of the plane. (See Best Evidence, Ch. 28, and Ch. 31, for details, with timelines, photos, and much other data).

David,

I have always thought that they may have moved the body to the cargo hold for whatever nefarious purpose.  But, the cargo hold doesn't seem big enough.  Is the forward baggage area the same size as the rest of the cargo hold?

This looks to be about 4 feet in height in this 707 cargo hold.  I would guess you could work seated or bent over and do the dirty work.  

3 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

In this case, we have a large number of witnesses who would have had a good view of the car at the time it is claimed to have stopped (or almost stopped, or slowed down significantly). It is reasonable to assume that all or virtually all of those spectators would have been looking at the car, firstly because looking at the car was what they had come to Elm Street to do, and secondly because several films and photos show that virtually all of the spectators were facing the motorcade.

Jeremy.

Just out of curiosity, where would you place this slow down or stop at?  Front of the TSBD or down by the GK?

3 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

We know that only a small minority of those spectators claimed that the car came to a stop (or almost came to a stop). What we have to decide is which of the following two options is the more likely:

You keep saying a small minority as versus a larger majority saw the slow down or stop.  Can you put a number to the small minority and the larger majority.

When I talk about where the shooting takes place I can put a number to the witnesses. (It is not an exact number since I am to lazy to go back and count.  But, it is a very close number such as 90+)

Here is some info on Marie Muchmore I wrote some years back.  The FBI was aware of her film and perjury.

Marie Muchmore:  A second look at truthfulness Part I

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

“Muchmore was an employee of Justin McCarty Dress Manufacturer in Dallas located at 707 Young Street, four blocks south of the Texas School Book Depository. On November 22, 1963, Muchmore was in Dealey Plaza with five co-workers, including Wilma Bond, who had a still camera, to watch the presidential motorcade. Muchmore stood near the northwest corner of Main Street and Houston Street with her 8 mm Keystone movie camera and awaited the president’s arrival….

Muchmore sold the undeveloped film to the Dallas office of United Press International on November 25, 1963, for $1,000. It was processed by Kodak in Dallas, and flown to New York City. It appeared the following day on local television station WNEW-TV.^[6] The film now belongs to the Associated Press Television News, (Altgens outfit) which restored it in 2002.^” 

Wikipedia is saying in this article that Marie Muchmore is a xxxx and committed perjury to the FBI in her statement dated December 4, 1963.  She basically said two things of importance there.

First, she said she was standing on Main and Houston Streets when the parade passed by and she heard a shot.  This statement had to be clarified so that one wouldn’t think that she heard a shot on Main Street as the President passed by.

Secondly, her perjury statement saying she did not take photographs as the presidential motorcade passed by.  These statements are underlined in red.  Understanding these statements make it easy to interpret what happened in her next statement to the FBI on February 14, 1964.  Because of a possible perjury charge the FBI could have induced her to say anything they wanted.

The date of this 302 is 12/4/63.  Marie sold her film on 11/25/63.  Do you think that the FBI didn't know about the sale?

16 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

John,

Which address? The Beckley, or the Elsbeth?

Hosty had the Elsbeth St. address back in April.

Steve Thomas

Isn't that the 602 or 605 Bentley address.  Harvey Lee Oswald is associated with the Bentley address.

57 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Harvey Lee Oswald is a name, a file, a dossier. You see it surface in Mexico City, in Russia, and in the intelligence files of federal and local law enforcement agencies. It is different than the Harvey and Lee Oswald doppelgangers  of John Armstrong and Jim Hargrove.

Steve,

I am a believer in more than two people besides Harvey and Lee in the Oswald Project.  I believe there was more than two operatives.  But, there is not enough proof to say there are more than two.  Isn't the Harvey Lee Oswald identification wrapped up in the mole hunt by James Angleton.

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

The name's origins are shrouded in mystery and its purposes are unknown.

It would be nice to figure that out.  The more you dig into Oswald you find mysterious things like his records being kept by the US Army in Korea with the 2nd Inf Div intelligence.  

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

It is different than the Harvey and Lee Oswald doppelgangers  of John Armstrong and Jim Hargrove.

But, that too is wrapped up in the mystery of Harvey and Lee.  Wasn't this information given to the DPD by an Army colonel or am I mis-remembering how the DPD got that name an address.  

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

This has to be a joke, surely? It was the lizard people who did all of this, right? Or was it aliens from the planet Zog?

No, Jeremy.  It wasn't lizard people or aliens from Zog.  I can see that you have a hard time controlling your imagination.  Come back down to planet Earth rather than Zog.

It was representatives of our government who did it.  These were henchmen of the government officials who planned and executed the assassination.  Personnel, rogue or otherwise, from the CIA and the FBI are responsible for all or most of the film alteration in Dealey Plaza. 

Lately, I have begun to think that the folks at Jaggers, Chiles, Stovall are responsible for some alterations.  I also think that Altgens home base, The Daily Morning News, is also responsible for some alterations.  These two outfits had the equipment for such tasks and Altgens was a master of it.  

8 hours ago, Steven Kossor said:

Fluids, like bullets, travel in straight lines. In order for blood and brains to exhaust from a hole at the right rear of JFK's skull and land on the driver's side taillight and onto officer Hargis who was in that vicinity during the headshot(s) interval on Elm Street, the shot creating the hole must have originated in a straight line (with the two points defining it being the driver's side taillight/Hargis and the hole at the back of JFK's head).  That line points toward the GK.  In order for the hole at the back of JFK's head to "point" toward the driver's side taillight/Hargis at the time both were spattered with gore, his head had to have been turned toward the GK at the time the bullet struck.  The integrity of the Zfilm is irretrievably lost because it does not capture the necessary orientation of JFK's head.  These are facts that should be considered in any conversation about the direction from which bullets entered JFK's head on Elm Street. Like many in the Forum, I've been trying to make some sort of meaningful contribution to the understanding of "what happened" on Elm Street and until the facts I've described can be integrated into that understanding, it is incomplete and inadequate. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Steven,

Sticking with your story sounds good to me.  A high-powered rifle bullet creates hydrostatic shock in a liquid or semi-liquid material such as brain tissue.  This hydrostatic shock will create a cone of force from pressure thousands of pounds per square inch.  This in turn will move in the direction the bullet came from exiting the skull in line with that bullet.  Your idea of not seeing Kennedy look toward the Grassy Knoll is sound.  One might argue a shot from the Triple Underpass, but one would have to fight about the notion of a train being there at the time of the assassination.

This is what the testimony of the witnesses' state regardless of what is shown on the Z film.  The Z film is a fraud as demonstrated by Andrej Stancak.  His photo/film frame showing the black patch indicates that Kennedy was shot prior to Z frame 313.  You can see the black patch as early as coming from behind the Stemmons sign which is around Z 225 or so.  You can see earlier in the Betzner photo the black patch.   

7 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

John,

I've never been able to satisfy In my own mind, exactly which Oswald they were looking for.

Oswald was arrested at around 1:50 PM, and arrived back at Police Headquarters around 2:00 PM. Fritz began questioning him around 2:20 PM.

At 2:40 PM, W.E. Potts, B.L. Senkel and Lt. E.L. Cunningham were dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley. Potts wrote in his after-action report

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338564/m1/1/?q=Potts ]

that after he finished taking some affidavits, Fritz dispatched them to the Beckely St address at 2:40 and they arrived at Beckley at 3:00PM.

Detective B.L. Senkel also said in his after action report that they arrived at 1026 N. Beckley at 3:00PM.

But, when they got there...

WC testimony of Earlene Roberts April 8, 1964

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/robertse.htm

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the day the President was shot?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I remember it---who would forget that?
Mr. BALL. And the police officers came out there?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what they said?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was Will Fritz' men---it was plainclothesmen and I was at the back doing something and Mr. Johnson answered the door and they identified themselves and then he called me.
Mr. BALL. What did they say?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, they asked him if there was a Harvey Lee Oswald there.

 

Mr. BALL. And you didn't have that name you didn't ever know his name was Lee Oswald?
Mrs. ROBERTS. No---he registered as O. H. Lee and they were asking for Harvey Lee Oswald.

 

According to Will Fritz, someone, whose name he could not remember gave him Oswald's Beckley address before he began interrogating Oswald:
(4H207)

Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet.

 

What in the world is going on here?

Steve Thomas

The two Oswalds act or interact in such a manner that it is difficult to pin down which one does what.  I have often thought that maybe Lee Oswald went to the Beckley address, but the evidence says Harvey.  Maybe they both used that address when the other would be absent. 

As far as Capt. Fritz is concerned, he does a song and dance whenever he chooses.  How reliable is his information or the things he said about Harvey Oswald?

As an example of the two Oswalds interacting, we have the evidence for two Oswalds at the TSBD.  These men were intelligence operatives.  They would have to have know in their mission what the other was doing so they didn't step on each others toes and expose themselves. 

I have in my thoughts Lee Oswald as Doorway Man which generated the need to alter Altgens 6.  And, Harvey Oswald on Elm Street taking photos of the p. limo (Martin film and two others) and later as Prayer Man (Couch film).

Harvey saying to Fritz that he was outside with Bill Shelley watching the parade is a good example of the alibi that could be created when needed.  Alibis were a main part of the double man/spy concept. 

41 minutes ago, Karl Kinaski said:

RFE/RL: From the limited contact that you had with Oswald, was it
possible for you to make any conclusions about his temperament?
Shushkevich: You know, it was possible. I got the impression that he was
a very calm person. He produced the impression of a hard-working man.
But he also seemed to have very strong habits that weren't suitable for
studying Russian -- especially with the accents in Russian words. I
would teach him to say, "Ya DOO-ma-yu" ("I think"), but he insisted on
saying, "Doo-MAH-yu." We would be going over the tenses, and he kept
saying, "Ya Doo-MAH-yu." You see, I simply could not get him to say,
"DOO-ma-yu." Besides that, he never showed any other habits.
He never showed any emotion. His punctuality was spotless. Our lesson
was always at 18:05 at the laboratory of the radio factory and he was
always there on the dot.

This part of Shushkevich's testimony rings true.  The inability to say Ya doo ma yu and saying Ya doo MAH yu indicates a southern accent from Louisiana or Texas.  Shushkevich wouldn't know anything about Oswald's southern accent.  Harvey lived in Tx and La long enough to acquire the accent.  Lee acquired his naturally.  

13 hours ago, David G. Healy said:

a Soviet citizen writes a book about an alleged US presidential assassin? Who edited/published it, Pravda, TASS? You can do better, Karl...

Jim,

I think David Healy has gotten to the heart of the matter.  And, what James Norwood said about Titovets rings true.

5 hours ago, Bill Fite said:

Isn't the problem with the melons on a board that the head is attached to the neck and to get an accurate reaction they should have either suspended the melon with string or attached it to a spring?

As I understand it melons were used along with other objects filled with water.  Did any of the objects have a wooden container filled with say some cereal such as oatmeal or some tissue like animal brain matter?  I would think you would get a better recreation with something like that.  So much thickness of wood would equal so much thickness of bone.  The more solid material such as oatmeal or animal brains would represent the actual human brain tissue.  I think one would get closer that way to a human head and brain.

That is the problem with shooting objects like those shown in the film.  They are not the real thing and the comparison is not the real thing.

Z 312 in Gil Jesus' film has a fine example of the black patch.  It is not as good as the one produced by Andrej Stancak.  If you go back to other Zapruder frames prior to this one you will also see the black patch.

What does that mean?  It means that the long-term, continual argument about whether Kennedy's head moved this way or that way is based upon fraudulent information.  It means that Kennedy was shot in the head prior to the events of Z 313 and frames following that frame.  This is something that most folks will discount because it invalidates much of their work based upon frames Z 313 and after. 

The statement above that says the Z film is contains fraudulent information and is backed up by witness statements.  How many?  Somewhere over 90.  I will have to go back for an exact count in an earlier work.  The problem with these witness statements is that they are in the minority.  And, being in the minority they are discounted as not relevant.  How can that be done?  As and example, Toni Glover said she saw the President's head explode as the p. limo turned the corner of Houston onto Elm.  Who would believe a 11 year old girl?  Or, 90+ people saying something different that the almighty, pristine and unaltered Z film?   

The Z film is an altered piece of trash that in part was designed to change people's memories of what actually happened in Dealey Plaza.  It is a psychological attack on the witnesses who saw something different from what is seen in the Z film.  It is disinformation of the worse sort. 

One has to assume that a policeman who reaches the rank of detective must have a fair or good degree of intelligence.  Anyone can see that a light meter is a light meter as shown in this photo and is not a camera.  The policemen handled the camera and saw there was film in it.  As I said earlier, it is impossible to put film in a light meter.  

1 minute ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Sure, but from the time Oswald left the Marine Corps (late 1959) until he was measured at the 1963 autopsy by Earl Rose, he lost 2 inches in height.  Perhaps someone will post evidence that men in their early 20s lose typically lose a couple of inches in height as they age for four years, but I’ll be surprised to see it.  I think we all will, eh?
 

JIm,

You are exactly right.  The "evidence" I spoke of is that which would confirm the loss of 2 inches in height from a young man during a four-year period.  I don't think anyone will find it.   

21 hours ago, John Butler said:

Even if the WC supports the notion of Oswald's bus ride, it must be countered if it "contradicts the lone-gunman narrative".

The evidence supporting the idea that there were two Oswalds at the TSBD is a nightmare for the lone-gunman narrative.

9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

On 5/14/2022 at 3:29 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

 The witness statements give us no good reason to believe that frames were removed.

 

Au contraire... the witness statements are the primary reason to believe frames were removed.

And BTW, of course the slowdown was significant just as I said (and you refute). If it weren't significant, the witnesses wouldn't have noticed it.

Senator Yarborough said after the shooting SS agents left their vehicle.  That is not in any film or photo.  They wouldn't have left their vehicle if it was in a high-speed mode going to Parkland.  Others mention the same thing.  Therefore, frames showing that were removed.  The Muchmore film has had frames removed when the p. limo was in the intersection of Maine and Houston Street.  There are several gaps there. 

The Nix film and the Bronson film have been altered.  The Bell film has been altered on Houston Street.  There are 8 or so films, including the ones mention that either go haywire with unwatchable film or they simply skip showing the p. limo approach and go past the Court Records Building. 

Therefore, I conclude that something happened on Houston Street that was worthy of altering in those 8 films.  

6 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

The first shot I heard I thought was a rifle shot. The second shot, the motorcade almost came to a halt. They said later that the president‘s car slowed to something like five miles an hour. I wondered what the hell they were stopping for when somebody is shooting. People were jumping out of the car in front of me [the Secret Service followup car] and running to the president‘s car. I thought maybe somebody had thrown a bomb in there. The third shot I heard was a rifle shot.

 

And,

14 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Of course, Jeremy is correct in pointing out that if the limo slowed down significantly, then we should see that in any films that weren't confiscated. Can anybody tell me which films were not confiscated?

 

I think that what Yarborough said about Secret Service men leaving their vehicle is most important to consider.  No film or photo shows that at all.  I don't think Yarborough made that up.  So, another point for universal film and photo alteration.  (The exception is before reaching Dealey Plaza, Clint Hill was on and off the p. limo.  Other SS men were off their vehicle when Kennedy stopped and worked the crowd.)   

Why universal?  It's because I see something wrong with just about every film.  I'm sure my anti-fans will jump on that statement.  So, here is my answer before hand.  Read what I have said over the years.  That's pretty much what I have saying.

I think all the films were confiscated, or black backed such as Elsie Dorman and Patsy Paschall.  The only film that escaped their net was the AMIPA film.  And, I'm not to sure of that.   

10 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

John,

Here's another one:

On his left pocket flap: (translated)

Commander Coulet is causing this badge. It is based on the Insignia Polish paratroopers beret which he holds.

https://chemin-memoire-para.superforum.fr/t12436-historique-du-gcpa

Badge silver openwork metal eagle based on its prey, surmounting a square bearing the motto "Sicut AQUILA" (As the Eagle).

Sous l’impulsion du Général de MARICOURT c’est en 1956 que les commandos de l’air sont créés. Ils participeront jusqu’en 1962 à la guerre d’Algérie

(Under the dierction of General Maricourt, it signified members of the Air Corps who served in Algeria between 1956 and 1962)

On his right pocket is his parachutists badge.

The badge on his beret signifies either the 20th or the 40th Regiment. I'm not sure which.

He has three stripes on his epaulet, so I think that means he's a Captain. If so, the badge on his beret would indicate the 40th GCPA.

Steve Thomas

Thanks Steve,

I made a copy of this photo also.

8 hours ago, Denis Morissette said:

That’s Alfred of Cuba as Marina testified to. 

We all know about the Russian Princess, honey pot, spy, Marina's statements.  Let's see.  Was that Alfred Diaz?  Or, Alfred Gomez? Or Alfred Gonzales?  Or, maybe Elvis Infante?

7 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

Was trying to imply, using humorous terminology, that to imagine such an (eventful) event would lead one to believe said person’s subconscious reasoning may be called into doubt. 

Sorry Sean,

I wasn't writing about you, but others.  Sorry.

11 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

This is the same guy who fabricated a story that a janitor saw LHO pull the trigger

I looked at the LA Times article and immediately saw that it was simply BS of the worst sort.  Where was the "alleged" word in describing Oswald as the killer of Kennedy and Tippit?  This was a biased article from the very start with little or no evidence to back up what was being said.  I would say this is the technique of some on the Forum, buI I would probably get in trouble again.

22 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Lieutenant Souetre, 1956

 

In 1956, Souetre was in the GCPA 20. He transferred to the 40th in 1957.

Steve Thomas

Steve,

Neat photo.  I will add this to my collection on Souetre.

4 hours ago, Paul Bacon said:

There it is.  This is the difference between you and most of the rest of the people weighing in in this thread.

Dino Brugioni has a very vivid and detailed memory of what he saw.  He was shocked.  You probably should have another look at Doug's interview with Dino.

This is boilerplate thinking by Jeremy's when it comes to things he believes counters his position on the assassination.  Evidence doesn't matter if it contradicts him.