Karl Hilliard

4 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

But then, it does look like Lovelady is wearing Lee's shirt...

As side notes--  https://www.tpaak.com/tpaak-blog/2014/1/2/while-assassination-conspiracy-is-feasible-it-assigns-oswald-some-guilt

http://merdist.com/wp/2017/02/08/lovelady-spoke/

On 8/4/2022 at 6:18 PM, David Von Pein said:

 David quoted Shelley's testimony---

Quote

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.

 

 

Didn't other employees state that Oswald was upstairs before 12? That almost sounds like Shelley supplying an alibi for Oswald right there. As a lone assassin, Lee should have been hunkered down in the snipers nest at noon ready to shoot.

At 2:05:25 in the KLIF recording...the official announcement came--JFK is dead. The preceding 15+ minutes were devoted to nothing but his condition and no supplemental bulletins were even hinted. 

6 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Mark,

When it comes to the topic of which of the Dallas-area radio stations Johnny Brewer was listening to on 11/22/63, as I said in this 2019 EF discussion, we just do not know for certain which station he was listening to that day. And that means that there are multiple other radio stations that are still candidates, and that includes KBOX, which (as I pointed out in the 2019 thread) is a station that reported this bulletin on the air at 1:35 PM CST: "We also have one Dallas detective reported dead on arrival at Parkland Hospital."

Now, if that bulletin is referring to J.D. Tippit's death (and I would bet it is, despite the fact they got the name of the hospital wrong), it means a radio station in Dallas was reporting on the shooting of a policeman prior to the time Brewer saw Oswald lurking in his store window. And it's quite possible that KBOX reported on the Oak Cliff shooting sometime before that 1:35 bulletin as well. But I can't confirm it (and neither could Dale Myers), because our copies of the KBOX coverage doesn't begin until 1:35 PM.

So rather than come out and accuse Johnny Brewer of lying his head off (as it seems so many conspiracists are willing and eager to do), I choose to first acknowledge the fact that there are most definitely other possible avenues to travel down when it comes to the subject of "Brewer And The Radio Stations". Another of those avenues is this one below (culled from the 2019 discussion):

"I'm certainly willing to accept the possibility that Johnny Brewer might have gotten mixed up concerning the precise time when he first heard the news about a police officer being shot in Oak Cliff. Perhaps he did hear that news a little later in the day. But also keep in mind the 1:35 PM KBOX report about the DOA "detective" (which is a remarkably speedy bulletin, because KBOX not only was reporting on the wounding of a police officer, they were already reporting on the death of that policeman as early as 1:35), which tends to indicate that at least one Dallas-area radio station was reporting the officer's shooting at a time which would be perfectly consistent with Johnny Brewer's account of only seeing Oswald after hearing about the policeman's shooting on the radio.

The KBOX audio footage I provided does not, however, give the necessary detail about the shooting taking place in Oak Cliff, but, as I mentioned earlier, it's possible that such an "Oak Cliff" detail was mentioned in an earlier KBOX bulletin, which preceded the point in time when my truncated copy of the coverage begins.

In any event, even if Brewer didn't hear any pre-1:36 PM radio bulletin concerning the Tippit shooting, it's still quite clear to me from the weight of John Brewer's testimony and statements over the years that Brewer was suspicious of Lee Harvey Oswald's behavior and actions shortly after 1:30 PM on 11/22/63 (such as: Oswald turning his back to the street just as the police cars went roaring by).

And if some conspiracy theorists have a desire to totally discount and deem invalid all of Mr. Brewer's testimony because of this issue of whether he really did hear a radio bulletin at the time he said he heard it, then I think those conspiracists are making a big mistake."  -- DVP; April 18, 2019

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Johnny Brewer & The Radio Stations

 

 If David had not posted the radio broadcasts to begin with ..then no one [I guess] would have been the wiser anyway.

The terms 'could have' and 'possible' are hardly evidence and also 'willing' and 'eager' to call Brewer out on his story is a bit overinflated. The idea is the desire to iron out the events surrounding Oswald's capture because just based on the strength of 'looking suspicious' hardly warranted the invasion of a theater from policemen with riot guns. Also concerning the shot dead detective mentioned at the intro of the KBOX recording could have been Tippit but no description of his assailant is given/and or repeated...Why not if it was known?

As a side note..I found that this was all discussed back in 2019----

I may have missed in the discussions... What ever happened to the theater manager? It seems that he just took off and disappeared. Was that not strange? And also the amazing hot-line that Julia Postal must have had to contact the police switchboard so quickly. There were probably hundreds of calls coming in at once [just a guess]....However squads of cops seemed to divine that they would have their man right there at the movie show.

7 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

 

Ask Von Pein what radio station broadcast the description of the man and at what time ?

It would only be a station from where there is no transcript. Note that the story ultimately morphed into this...

Quote

 

Posted November 23, 2011

Police in Dallas honor man who led them to Lee Harvey Oswald

The city begins to note its legacy and seeks out citizen-heroes from the day President Kennedy was assassinated....

“I’m just so overwhelmed,” Brewer, 70, said after receiving the award and watching a video of his 22-year-old self recounting the events of that day.

Brewer, a manager at a shoe store located about 90 steps from the Oak Cliff neighborhood theater, was listening to news reports about the president’s assassination when he heard reports that a Dallas police officer, J.D. Tippit, had just been killed a few blocks away.

 

https://www.pressherald.com/2011/11/23/police-in-dallas-honor-man-who-led-them-to-oswald_2011-11-23/

4 hours ago, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

   Karl Hilliard --------------- a strange poll – go away.

Taken completely out of context ...I did not tell you to 'go away'.

David Von Pein wrote on his blog---

Quote

In any event, it's quite clear that at least one of the radio stations in the Dallas-Fort Worth metro area had provided, prior to approximately 1:36 PM (Dallas time), a bulletin concerning the shooting of a police officer in Oak Cliff. We know that whatever radio station Johnny Calvin Brewer was listening to on 11/22/63 most definitely did broadcast such a bulletin (most likely somewhere between 1:30 PM and 1:35 PM).

I am surprised [though not much] at this blanket lack of scrutiny when it comes to the isolation of the facts... Paramount to claiming that perhaps -maybe ..Johnny Brewer must have been listening to some underground radio station possessing facts not available to the mainstream local broadcasts. At 1:30 these ears were glued to the news from Parkland and the condition of President Kennedy. Furthermore, no one else has ever claimed to have heard anything about a police involved shooting before that announcement..."Ladies and gentlemen the president is dead." and before squads of cops invaded the Texas Theater.

With out this part of the story...the hinges start coming off on how the Dallas Police managed to zero in on the whereabouts of their man. So how is it that what we can't find..is so clear?
 

On 7/31/2022 at 4:15 PM, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

I reckon that Hickey fired an accidental auto burst of 4 or 5 or 6 shots with his AR15, & that the last shot hit jfk in the head at Z313, & (say) the first shot bloodied Tague. 

I am wondering which members agree that .....

1. Hickey fired at least one shot.

2. Hickey fired the fatal shot at Z313.

Anyone not agreeing with (1) or (2) need not answer -- a no answer is a no vote -- but comments & insults are welcome.

 

 

This is the strangest poll/survey I have ever seen. This is like saying-- vote my way.. or vote my way... If you want to vote your way.. then go away.

The Warren Commission gave us the magic bullet-- now here we have the mystical bullet. At least the magic bullet was supposedly 'found'.

Can members just simply make an annual donation [say $100] and send it in via PayPal?

4 hours ago, Charles Blackmon said:

 The guy that I tend to believe really killed Tippit (Larry Craford) ....

 

 

What could his motive have been?

The shoe store guy [Johnny Brewer] stated that he saw Oswald ducking in near his store front window AFTER hearing on his transistor radio that a policeman had been shot only blocks away. A description followed [so he said] ---Oswald---matched the description and had lurked seemingly nervous and suspicious acting he claimed.... That is just total BS!... There was no such report broadcast until after Oswald was arrested. At 1:30 CST...all attention was devoted to the condition of the president. His death was announced 7-8 minutes later. I spent hours trying to isolate this phantom breaking news..that a cop was shot in Oak Cliff. Not until almost 2 PM was it ever mentioned.

20 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

  Harry Livingstone AND his book KILLING THE TRUTH

I thought it was some kind of take on Bill O'Reilly's-- 'Killing Kennedy'.... Killing the Truth throws Robert Groden all 10 wheels under the bus. I thought [still do] that Groden helped get the ball rolling in the first place by getting the Zapruder film out to the public.  

Quote

What happened in Mexico City in the weeks before JFK’s murder? It is clear from government files declassified in recent decades that Oswald’s six-day trip to Mexico was never adequately investigated by the CIA, the FBI and the State Department—and, as a result, by the Warren Commission...

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/03/jfk-assassination-lee-harvey-oswald-mexico-116195/

Perhaps some official documentation could be linked that identified this FBI agent to whom Ms Paine provided the suggestive Mexican souvenir items and that these items were entered as evidence to any hearings.

10 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

 
Everything points to the SBT being correct. Why CTers refuse to acknowledge this "SBT pattern" only leaves me scratching my head. ... 

....There's the incredible "SBT-like" pattern of the wounds on the two victims.

....No bullets inside JFK's body.

....CE399 (from LHO's rifle) found on Connally's stretcher. 

....The Zapruder Film shows the victims reacting at precisely the same time.

 

"....There's the incredible "SBT-like" pattern of the wounds on the two victims."

Incredible? Yes indeed. I have searched for any other instance that.. two persons were injured back to back and almost to death with one bullet in combat or any other such shooting incident in recorded history and have found nothing.  If it could be equally assumed that there was more than one shooter from behind...the wounds would have more logically been explained.

....No bullets inside JFK's body.

Amend that to ...no bullets were found because perhaps no bullets were looked for.

....CE399 (from LHO's rifle) found on Connally's stretcher.

This has been discussed ad nauseum....possessing the magical power to be found and also virtually undamaged...the discovery being almost like a junior high school prank.

....The Zapruder Film shows the victims reacting at precisely the same time.

The governor reacts much as he described. One's imagination can see whatever they want to believe. If there was really only one shooter with a cheap rifle firing from that window hitting two persons and killing JFK like he did...it would seriously be the most remarkable... even phenomenal event in all creation.

On 8/15/2012 at 12:59 PM, David Josephs said:

the 30 cal bullet was mentioned by a few people as being a clean, pointed bullet and having been seen and held at Parkland by Tomlinson... THIS is the bullet given to Wright, which Wright gives to Johnson, which Johnson gives to Rowley.

- CE399 as we now know it came into existence when Todd handed Frazier the bullet and he, Frazier, and two others THEN put their initials on it... in DC

- the OTHER BULLET (in the SS memo) may have been the pointed one... yet has disappeared to History.

  Apologies if this has already been discussed---

    The fellows name was Tomlinson...a hospital worker at Parkland as head engineer. I have read through his testimony before the Warren Commission and fail to see where he actually ever identified CE 399 as the bullet that was found by the stretcher. Perhaps my eyes got blurry or something but his entire testimony was concentrated on identifying which stretcher was which...and CE 399 seemed irrelevant because it is not even mentioned [that I see]....I have read that after the Report came out, Mr Tomlinson had claimed that the picture of CE 399...the declared 'Magic Bullet' did not look at all like the slug he found. I concede that CE 399 was fired from that 6th floor rifle but if what Tomlinson reported is true then here is my theory---It was not fired at the president. It must have been fired into a barrel of water and jelly because it looks too damn good.
Reporter Seth Kantor saw Jack Ruby at Parkland as word on the presidents condition was awaited. Also another person identified Ruby's presence... Why was Ruby there? ...He denied being there at all and the Commission staff accepted Ruby's account! There must have been something to hide and I believe that Ruby was involved. I believe he furnished the rifles...[the ones that were really used in the ambush] he may have even furnished that round that Tomlinson discovered.

Quote

 

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, does it make any difference to you whether you sign this deposition at the end or not?
Mr. TOMLINSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. We very much appreciate your coming, Mr. Tomlinson. Thank you very much. Those are all the questions I have.
Mr. TOMLINSON. All right. Thank you.
Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.

(Discussion between counsel and the witness Tomlinson regarding a proposed exhibit.)

Mr. SPECTER. On the record.
Now that the deposition of Mr. Tomlinson has been concluded, I am having the paper marked as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mr. Tomlinson is present, and will you identify this paper marked Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2 as the one which contains the diagram of the emergency room and the letters A and B of the stretchers we have been discussing?

 

Quote

SBT

Funny--- it is still consistently called a theory but never a fact. 

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

    The word "Depository" I don't think was mentioned by Barker during the half-hour video presented below. I can't recall if the "Book Depository" was mentioned by name prior to the JFK death announcement at approx. 

 

About after 11:13 and 19:30 he does say 'book depository'. Thanks for the video and all the compiled work.

Also at 17:50 in the video another reporter mentions...'book depository'. All in all I think this is quite interesting. Who was the source of the info? More than three times there was a mention of a killed Secret Service.

22 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

 Ok I will add a new question.  Did they expect LHO to return Friday evening to spend the weekend with them?   What were the weekend plans?

 

A very good and far more important question. 

Ms Paine was just resigned to listening to the TV reports.

Quote

Mr. JENNER - How did you and Marina look at the parade, that is as the motorcade went along were you and Marina--
Mrs. PAINE - This was not shown on television.
Mr. JENNER - Oh, it wasn't?
Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my recollection they had cameras at the convention center, whatever it was, that the President was coming to for dinner, and for his talk.
Mr. JENNER - And was the motorcade being described, broadcast by radio?
Mrs. PAINE - The motorcade was being described.
Mr. JENNER - Were you and Marina listening to that?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, it was coming through the television set, but it wasn't being shown.
Mr. JENNER - Were you listening?
Mrs. PAINE - We were.
Mr. JENNER - Did she show an interest in this?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, yes.

Obviously, Oswald did not check with Wes Frazier [his usual ride to Irving] before departing work. The concept that Oswald went on the run is based on pure speculation. I have long suspected that Lee may have directly or indirectly been involved with some kind of unknown clandestine activity.

Quote

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you hear him ask Marina to move into Dallas with him?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think that he might have asked her to do that?
Mrs. PAINE - She told me, and it should be there, that he had expressed to her--she told me the night of the 22d that he had expressed to her his wish that they could get together as soon as possible and have their apartment together. The setting in which she told me this left me with the impression that she was confused and hurt that he could be making a gesture toward the re-establishing of their family life when at the same time he must have been thinking about doing something that would necessarily destroy their family life. There was no. indication to her, in what she told me, that he meant for her to do it right away. I have since heard this by rumor.

The House Select Committee essentially rubber stamped the Warren Report even utilizing the same verbosity "...might have..could have...possibly..." etc.----
 

Quote

 

The forensic pathology panel concluded that President Kennedy was struck by two, and only two, bullets, each of which entered from the rear. ¹ The panel further concluded that the President was struck by one bullet that entered in the upper right of the back and exited from the front of the throat, and one bullet that entered in the right rear of the head near the cowlick area and exited from the right side of the head, toward the front. This second bullet caused a massive wound to the President's head upon exit. There is no medical evidence that the President was struck by a bullet entering the front of the head,(19) and the possibility that a bullet could have struck the President and yet left no evidence is extremely remote. Because this conclusion appears to be inconsistent with the backward motion of the President's head in the Zapruder film, the committee consulted a wound ballistics expert to determine what relationship, if any, exists between the direction from which a bullet strikes the head and subse-

¹In many of its conclusions, the forensic pathology panel voted 8 to 1, with the dissenting vote being consistently that of Cyril H. Wecht, M.D., coroner of Allegheny County, Pa. In all references to conclusions of the panel, unless it is specifically stated that it was unanimous, it should be assumed that Dr. Wecht dissented.

Page 44

quent head movement. (20) The expert concluded that nerve damage from a bullet entering the President's head could have caused his back muscles to tighten which, in turn, could have caused his head to move toward the rear.(21) He demonstrated the phenomenon in a filmed experiment which involved the shooting of goats. (22) Thus, the committee determined that the rearward movement of the President's head would not be fundamentally inconsistent with a bullet striking from the rear.(23)

The forensic pathology panel determined that Governor Connally was struck by a bullet from the rear, one that entered just below the right armpit and exited below the right nipple of the chest. It then shattered the radius bone of the Governor's right wrist and caused a superficial wound to the left thigh. (24) Based on its examination of the nature and alinement of the Governor's wounds, the panel concluded that they were all caused by a single bullet that came from the rear. It concluded further that, having caused the Governor's wounds, the bullet was dislodged from his left thigh.

The panel determined that the nature of the wounds of President Kennedy and Governor Connally was consistent with the possibility that one bullet entered the upper right back of President Kennedy and, after emerging from the front of the neck, caused all of the Governor's wounds.

 

Read further...  https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/part-1a.html

Is there not a contradiction here?-----

Quote

 

...Connally was seriously wounded while riding in President Kennedy's car at Dealey Plaza in Dallas when the president was assassinated. Connally, .... recalled hearing the first shot, which he immediately recognized as a rifle shot. He said that he immediately feared an assassination attempt and turned to his right to look back to see the president. He looked over his right shoulder but did not catch the president out of the corner of his eye, so he said he began to turn back to look to his left when he felt a forceful impact to his back..." He looked down and saw that his chest was covered with blood and thought he had been fatally shot. Then he heard the third and final shot, which sprayed blood and brain tissue on the car's passengers.^[19] Connally suffered a fracture of the fifth rib, a punctured lung, a shattered wrist, and had a bullet lodged in his leg.^[20]

  In testimony before the Warren Commission Connally said that it had seemed that there were either two or three people involved, or more, in this – or that someone was shooting with an automatic rifle.^[22]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Connally#Quotes

Mr Brown starts repetitive threads based on ---Oswald shot Tippit.

Outsized in one ...he begins another.

The most common argument that I see that tries to support the lone assassin narrative is that--- said gunman merely ignored the 4X scope and just used the iron sights ignoring the obvious observation...Why knowingly assemble a wonky scope in the first place...that is..if the intention is to utilize the mounted sight? Does any of this make sense?

At the end of the preceding Von Pein clip...It sounds to me like Ms Roberts said Oswald "went to his room-put on his dark coat-and went out to the bus stop".....

 There was no mention of a white jacket and then again the narrative that Oswald bolted out and immediately headed in the direction of the Tippit site is based on nothing but speculation.

Quote

Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald in the newspapers prior to the time you went to the police station lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I think I saw one in the morning paper.
Mr. BELIN. Do you subscribe to the morning or evening paper?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I take the evening paper myself.
Mr. BELIN. You went down and bought a morning paper?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I didn't go out. I was looking at one of the--some of the cab drivers had it.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any television picture on the morning of November 23 of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I have never until this day seen it.
Mr. BELIN. On television?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I never have.
Representative FORD. Do you have a television in your home?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes sir; I do. But I don't--when I get home I will read the paper, and after you work about 12 hours you don't feel like fooling around with television too much.
Mr. BELIN. What number man in the lineup did you identify as having seen on November 22?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Number 3.

Strange ...because earlier in his testimony Scoggins stated that he was a very interested TV watcher after hearing that JFK had been shot----

Quote

Mr. SCOGGINS....whenever I passed by, one of the guys hollered at me and asked me did I know the President had been shot, and I made the remark that I had not heard that one. I found a place to park and I came back, and he came back there in a couple of minutes and told me the facts about it. I thought it was some kind of a joke. So I had to go plumb up to the corner of 10th before I could find a parking place, and I parked right there on the corner and went back and got me a coke and watched the deal, watched the television.
Mr. DULLES. Would you speak a little louder, please; I can't quite hear.
Mr. SCOGGINS. I got me a coke and watched television for a few minutes, I would say 10, 12, 15 minutes, there, and went out to eat my lunch.
Mr. DULLES. What were you seeing on television?
Mr. SCOGGINS. The deal about the President getting assassinated;

      Who really believes that Mr Scoggins... after the events of the day... didn't curiously catch anything about anything on TV? I mean how did he even know that JFK had died? And furthermore claiming that he [I have never until this day seen it]... abstained from television viewing concerning the event for months prior to his testimony and saw not one single televised frame of Oswald? ----It was "too much to fool with"?

                                                                                    Yeah right.

On 7/9/2022 at 6:00 PM, Bill Brown said:

 
 
Barbara Davis was lying in bed inside her residence, which was the house at the
corner of Tenth and Patton.  She heard gunshots outside and went to the door.
She opened the screen door and noticed Helen
Markham across the street, screaming.  Davis then noticed a man cutting through
her front yard, holding a gun in his hands.  She testified that the man had the
gun cocked in his hands as if he were emptying it.  Barbara Davis positively
identified Lee Oswald as the man who she saw cut across her yard with a gun in
his hands.
 
 

Quote

Mr. BALL. Did he have a coat on when you saw him?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What color coat?
Mrs. DAVIS. A dark coat.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you recognize him from his face or from his clothes when you saw him in the lineup?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I looked at his clothes and then his face from the side because I had seen him from a side view of him. I didn't see him fullface.
Mr. BALL. Now answer the question. Did you recognize him from seeing his face or from his clothes?
Mrs. DAVIS. From his face because that was all I was looking at. 

  Apologies if this has all been posted.........

  Supposedly...Oswald had on a white jacket that was discarded later...supposedly.
 

Quote

 

Mr. DULLES. Did you know at the time he was emptying his gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. That is what I presumed because he had it open and was shaking it.

 

Why would an assailant continue to markedly wave their gun around while fleeing the scene of a shooting?

A S&W revolver is not emptied by 'shaking' it. Gun owners here know that fired shells are ejected with the cylinder rod.

Quote

  Mr. BALL. What about you? I am not talking about what you told them.
What was your reaction when you saw this man?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I was pretty sure it was the same man I saw. When they made him turn sideways, I was positive that was the one I seen.     

Mrs Davis was pretty sure that she was positive. Or was it she was positively pretty sure even though she didn't really see his face? One point I would like to emphasize is --Were there any changes in witness opinion between the events of the day and the official testimony? By the time Mrs Davis appeared..the case was already closed. Hoover had declared it closed 3 weeks after the assassination. Mrs Davis was free to tell the counsel whatever she thought he might want to hear. The news had been well pasted with Oswald's guilt. That did not influence her? ...Oswald's wife?...The Paines?...all the other witnesses?