Derek Thibeault

On 8/20/2022 at 7:23 PM, Joseph McBride said:

At a book signing, I asked Cokie Roberts about what she

thought caused her father's death. She said,

"I have no conspiracy theories about my father's death,"

and went on to a long technical discourse she was taught

by some scientist about ice on the wings being the cause.

I think Roberts and her mother, Rep. Lindy Boggs, were intimidated into silence.

And part of that may have been payoffs, i.e., a House seat and an

ambassadorship (to the Vatican,

a first for the US) for Lindy Boggs and a lucrative TV gig for Roberts.

It is strange - it seems kids of parents who die in these ways often side on the conspiracy side. With Lindy Boggs in politics and Cokie on TV, it may have well been them playing conservative to not rock the boat. Is that what she really thought, I mean ABC was home of the Peter Jennings "special". Which was awful. Some deaths just happened as a natural way of life, but there were some very head scratching ones, and this falls into that category. The only Kennedy Assassination connection in my state that I know of is the William Sullivan death, which I also believe is head scratching. Hunting accident.

7 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Derek, the best source of information on Curtis Craford in his later years is this article by Peter Whitmey who tracked him down in Oregon and talked to him a number of times: https://www.jfk-assassination.net/creatingapatsy.htm. Whitmey's article, "Creating a Patsy", is revised and expanded from an original publication in April 1998.

HSCA did not bother with finding Craford, and no researcher contacted Craford before Whitmey in 1989, even though Whitmey reported Craford was not hard to find.

More photos of Craford: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=198

thank you!

Do you have a pic of this Crafard guy you can post? What was the rest of his history, after the assassination?

The more I think about this, and I read the blog article by Dale Myers, I strongly suspect that Lane and Martin's questioning would not have been acceptable in a court of law. They throw too many leading questions at her. Now I believe she saw something and I believe she was scared, either of losing her job or of harm. I'm assuming she was poor, so losing a job is a big deal. No clue what family she had. Maybe the 1960 census when that comes out in 9 years may be able to shed some light. It's hard when an event happens, which witness saw which part and who was looking at what? I don't understand why everyone in that neighborhood does not have a police interview on file of what they saw on the day of the shooting. The Warren Commission also should have done that. The job of investigators that day is derelict in their duty to truly uncover what happened. If Oswald ever went on trial for this, not sure they could convict him if people delivered honest testimony.

9 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

This was given to me by a friend.

Shirley Martin interviewed Acquilla Clemmons in August, 1964:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wGFs59hXjeYFoZLuFff9U69d_5DS8cEd/view?usp=sharing

I have no idea what the references to Oswald's wife being there are supposed to mean.

Steve Thomas

The Mrs Oswald part interesting - she is very scared here. Who was she working for? That has to be in some record.

4 hours ago, Robbie Robertson said:

I’ve spoke to dale myers and we had a good chat and posner I’m speaking with Friday 

 

I don’t get all the drama behind the scenes and don’t really want to know about it my conversation with the people I have on is a different relationship than any history in the community. It’s just a topic that has got me hooked in trying to see it from everyone’s point of view 

And I think anyone new should. I have read people who disagree with my opinion. I have Posner's book. I like to see all sides and come to my own conclusion. Honestly, there was a time when I went back and forth on certain issues of the case, and anytime new evidence is released, I need to rethink it. It will be an interesting show. Keep doing the work you are doing, it's appreciated in the community, I am sure.

On 8/8/2022 at 7:07 AM, Robbie Robertson said:

I’m probably hard to listen too because my knowledge is incomparable to people who have been focused on it for longer than I’ve been alive but I’m talking to everyone and anyone I can on the matter. Looking through the archives and Malcom blunts work just sorting what I can and appreciate all the people I’ve spoken to on the subject whether you agree or disagree on their view the conversation is needed for others to hear and sort through. I’ll be speaking with posner in two weeks so definitely need to see it from his perspective.

I was going to ask you if you were going to speak to someone from the other side. I wonder about Posner because I don't think he really did much research after the book was out - I don't think he revisits it, but it may be interesting to hear his side. Too bad Bugliosi is dead, his book is massive. Lots of details. Of course, I don't agree with him, and Jim did a great book Reclaiming Parkland that took on both the film Parkland and Bugliosi's book. It's overwhelming if you are just seeing all of it for the first time, it's 56 years of books, films, people, files, etc... It will make your head spin. You have to break it into pieces, Tippit case separate from the Garrison case....etc... Kind of how Bart focuses on one piece of the day. There is even a film of a researcher obsessed about finding out who the "Umbrella Man" was. Lots of rabbit holes.

5 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Yes Derek you are right! Forget the North Carolina one, not right.

Here is what I found on Ancestry.com (I went in for the trial membership to have a look).

Her name is definitely spelled "Clemons", Acquilla Elizabeth Clemons, married 1955 to Robert Eugene LAGWAY (not "Legway"--a typo on the Ancestry.com listing you show! I looked at the marriage document and it clearly has Robert's name typed "LAGWAY" not "Legway"!)

Robert Eugene Lagway was born 12/23/05 and died 9/29/94 in either Sherman, or Denison, Texas.

But "Acquilla Clemons" is completely a deadend in records, latest record under that name shows her living in Dallas in a 1962 city directory (plus Joseph McBride cites she had lived in Dallas a long time).

Therefore I wondered if Acquilla Clemons may have gone by her middle name Elizabeth. I found an "Elizabeth Clemons" died 10/19/94 in Dallas, no birthdate given. I thought of all the stories of aged spouses dying soon after the other spouse dies, at about the same time. This would be Sept. 29 and Oct 19 of the same year, 1994, if that Elizabeth Clemons was Acquilla who married Robert Lagway. I would like to think, for this sympathetic and underappreciated witness, Acquilla Clemons, that she lived a peaceful life, escaped notoriety by the expedient of going by Elizabeth instead of Acquilla, and lived out her days peacefully with family members in her home city, Dallas. I can however find no newspaper obituary for either her or Robert Eugene Lagway. 

If Acquilla's husband Robert Lagway was born in 1905 and married Acquilla in 1955 when he was 50, there is a good chance Acquilla was not his first wife, and that there could be children of Robert Lagway from a previous marriage, who may survive today in the Dallas area, or grandchildren, who could possibly know and tell the story of "what became of Acquilla Clemons". There are many Robert Lagways in documents which could be sorted through for matching to Robert Eugene Lagway m. Acquilla Clemons, to find possible descendants in Dallas today. So Derek this is what I found from your "tip"!

Nice work! I am sure Elizabeth was an easier name to go by.

7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Not to go off topic, but Derek do you know The Searchers is loosely based on a true story, the recapture of Cynthia Ann Parker?  She died of heartbreak, in white captivity.

at some point - I think I heard that...

3 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

Acquilla Clemmons (as I spell her name, although it sometimes is spelled Clemons; her

unusual first name derives from "Eagle," which befits her courage and patriotism)

was never seen again after doing the interview with Mark Lane at her home in North Oak Cliff on March 23, 1966, for RUSH TO

JUDGMENT. I found the unedited transcript of that interview in the papers of

the film's director, the radical documentarian Emile de Antonio. I and other

researchers have tried to find Mrs. Clemmons. I found some indications

that she may have moved to Philadelphia. But given her age at the time of the assassination

and the murder of Officer Tippit (she told Lane she was about 55 and had lived

in Dallas since she was 15), she would be around 111 if she survives. It is disturbing that she

disappeared, let's hope not violently but perhaps having to flee the white supremacist atmosphere

of Dallas and the threats against her from the DPD. De Antonio said

in an interview with him and Lane for Film Comment's Winter 1966-67 issue that when they went to Dallas

to film RUSH TO JUDGMENT, all the tension was around the Tippit

murder, not the events in Dealey Plaza. Mrs. Clemmons was a brave

woman to keep speaking out about two men she saw as involved

in the Tippit murder. She was one of the people to whom I dedicated

INTO THE NIGHTMARE. The true heroes of this case are the

courageous, honest civilian witnesses who have spoken out

in contradiction of the official myth, as well as

some insiders such as Roger Craig and the medical

personnel in Dallas and Bethesda.

Thank you sir. You are right! The name spelling could be an issue. I hope she lived out her life in peace.

BTW - John Ford and The Searcher is my favorite film.

Just now, Derek Thibeault said:

Not sure if this is the right one. There is more info if you have a subscription.

3 minutes ago, Derek Thibeault said:

It was on Ancestry.com

4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Derek, could you say your source for a marriage of an Acquilla Clemons to a Richard Legway in Texas? (Or Robert Legway in your opening post?) Or if you do not have a link or source at hand, can you say as best as you can recall where you remember having seen that? I cannot find these names in any search engine I have tried, including google.

 

It was on Ancestry.com

3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Could this be her? Mary Aquila Groves Clemmons (note spellings), 1915-1999, born and died in North Carolina? https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/38251926/mary-aquila-clemmons 

That that Aquila Clemmons was African American is confirmed by the photo of a brother, James Franklin Groves, https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/29310869/james-franklin-groves.

The age looks about right for the "Ac(q)uila Clem(m)ons" in the Mark Lane interview video.

According to the obituary page, Mary Aquila Groves Clemmons received the name "Clemmons" by marriage, to one Homer Bryan Clemmons.

If this is the correct identification, searches for records of her as "Clemons" would not turn up the right person, but also "Aquila" was misspelled. 

I guess the question is - did this one ever leave North Carolina? I found an Acquilla Clemons marrying a Richard Legway in TX. Again may not be the right one or a second marriage or the right one but that's it. She has an uncommon name.

Interesting spelling it a different way. I find her fascinating.

39 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

I wasn't taken by Aquilla Clemons as a witness as much as others.

I think she disappeared after losing her job due to her employer's uncomfortableness toward her notoriety.

If she wanted work she learned right away to keep her immediate past behind her, imo anyways.

The Tippit murder scene eyewitnesses were such a mixed personality and background bunch and with such different testimonies and actions that day it bordered on humorous.

Helen Markham ( bless her stressed out self ) took the cake.

Two others grabbed a gun and a car and began to race around looking for that SOB and exact good ole boy Texas justice!

"Hey man..what's goin on?" shouted the used car dealer ( It think the car chase feller ) to a running man he described as Oswald.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Markham was problematic. It's hard to take their testimony at 100% because of the Rashomon effect, but would love to hear what they thought over time or if any were threatened. Did they continue to live in the community? None really pulled a Ruth Paine - they mostly vanished or died. The Tippitt case is so important and so poorly investigated at the time.

This witness fascinates me. She was in Rush to Judgement and then seemingly disappears. Is it true, no researchers would ever be able to track her down? I am curious - did she have kids or relatives that she may have told about what she saw? Is there no obituary or death record for her? Did she run away due to fear or because she wanted to be left alone? I tried to get info on Ancestry.com, and she is like a ghost. An Acquilla Elizabeth Clemons married a Robert Legway prior to 1963 in Dallas. Do we have other witnesses who seemingly disappeared and can not be accounted for in history? There must be a trail or family members to talk to. A lot of key people have passed on, but they left families with possible info. The Tippit case witnesses are extremely compelling because like what Joseph McBride says it's like Rashomon with their descriptions.

Interesting topic that has been under discussed - good essay.

I don't believe he fired anything.

8 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

As I came in the Forum front door, Bart left by the back door...so I'm not sure exactly what the topic was, P.M. or some other thread, but he told me he split from the E.F. because of adverse comments from other members.  Whatever the topic, his opinions/ideas/beliefs were attacked.  Bart is someone who is very certain in his beliefs, very dogmatic.  He is also very passionate and dedicated to researching the JFK case, as is clear with the massive amount of work he has taken on with Malcolm Blunt's archive for Dealey Plaza U.K..  Also, as someone from the Netherlands, he could be described as a 'Dutch Uncle'. 😃

Thanks - that's too bad. Debate is healthy, I enjoyed his work, really made me think. Never even occurred to me that Oswald may or may not have been watching the parade.

Just picked up AB's book - look forward to hearing his side.

Why did Bart leave the forum, whether you believe the Prayerman or not, his work on it has been outstanding? It's fascinating, I am not sure, I am in the camp of Oswald being in the doorway, but I can't rule it out either. I will give this episode a listen. Robbie is doing a great job with these guests, we need more conversation, not less.

Ordered it yesterday, looking forward to the 4-hour version and the commentary. Money worth spending.

John Judge was good to watch - I remember the Searchers being a decent doc. Anyone ever saw the movie Umbrella Man. About a man obsessed about the Kennedy Assassination, especially the Umbrella Man? It wasn't good, unfortunately - the concept was, but the acting and the follow through was not. Being someone who has been obsessed with it at times, I get it, so this film hits that nerve.

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

I must admit, that I didn't think Ms. Clemmon's account was very credible.

She stated a "kind of chunky fella with bushy hair" in her description of who she saw when she looked over at the killing scene.

She was the "only" witness stating that description.

No matter whether she got it right or not, her statements contradicted the official line.

I don't think it would have taken but one scary phone call threatening her after her Mark Lane interview for her to pack up her bags and "hit the road Jack" and move in with relatives far out of state and never come back.

I think black people in Dallas in those days were generally very afraid of the police and other authorities anyway as a matter of daily life reality.

Remember, there was a strong KKK sentiment in most all of our deep South cities ( in their police departments as well ) in those times, and colored people knew this and felt their presence. 

I guess, but if she was way off, then I would think people would be ok with her talking. Although, just saying anything different from Oswald probably gets you that call. Yeah, you are right, Dallas was very racist at the time.