Bill Brown
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Posts posted by Bill Brown
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8 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:
She never said anything about a 1:22 bus either, so what's your point ?
My point is obvious.
Since Markham never mentioned a 1:12 bus or a 1:22 bus, then no one has the right to claim which bus it was that Markham was trying to catch.
Get it now?
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16 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:
Helen Markham's apartment on 9th street (still there today) was not really that far from the bus stop. Maybe a 6 minute walk max? I bet you know *precisely* how close her apartment was to the bus stop, don't you? I bet you can measure it in feet or yards. [In fact, why don't you go on Google Maps and tell me exactly how many yards Helen Markham would have had to walk to her bus stop on Jefferson?]
So if she left her apartment laundry at 1:04PM or "just after 1PM" she would arrive at the bus stop at 1:10PM. Is that so she can wait for the arrival of the 1:22PM which is not really going to depart until maybe 1:25PM?
Why does she want to stand at the bus stop or even sit on it from 1:10 PM to 1:25 PM, 15 minutes of her life doing nothing? Most people who live that close to a bus stop and who take it all the time have their timing down perfectly as to when they head to the bus.
I don't think most people want to waste 15 minutes of their life waiting for a bus to leave; they stay in their apartment until the absolutely need to go to the bus stop, especially if it is that close by. And they head to the bus stop when they know they NEED to go to the bus stop.
Just my never humble OPINON.
It is my opinion that she did not leave her apartment at 1:04.
The time stamps on the police tapes support my opinion.
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On 8/1/2024 at 6:09 AM, Gil Jesus said:
Bob, what she referred to as the "1:15 bus" was actually scheduled to arrive at the corner of Jefferson and Patton Ave at 1:12. Here's the FBI report on what they found when they went to the bus company and inquired about the arrival time of the bus.
In the white section of this document, you'll see that the FBI timed the walking distance from the washateria where Markham lived ( 328 East 9th St. ) to the corner of 10th and Patton. It was 2 1/2 minutes. Markham said that she left her apartment "a little after one". ( 3 H 306 )
This timing is completely consistent with her estimate that she arrived at 10th and Patton at 1:06. Anybody who believes that Tippit was shot at 1:15 or later must prove that Markham stood on that corner for almost 10 minutes.
In order to suport their position that Tippit was shot after 1:15, some members have spectulated on this forum that Markham was going to meet the NEXT bus, at 1:22. But there's no evidence of that. Why would she call the 1:22 bus "the 1:15 bus" ? No, she was going to meet the bus that arrived at that bus stop around 1:12 and left at 1:15. This means that if the Tippit killing was at or after 1:15, she would have been on her bus.
Markham's presence on the corner of 10th and Patton is the proof that the murder occurred BEFORE 1:15. And the Commission knew that because that's what she testified to. ( 3 H 306 )
More of the story that Myers doesn't tell you:
Your entire point is moot if she was trying to catch the 1:22 bus.
She never says anything about a 1:12 bus.
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On 7/31/2024 at 8:22 PM, Jean Ceulemans said:
I don´t know the exact route it was on, so it never was near the crime scene?
The bus stop in question was one block south of Tenth & Patton at Jefferson & Patton.
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1 hour ago, Michael Kalin said:
Exactly, better yet ditch the entire crew of standard Patton/Jefferson flight path witnesses altogether. The alternative is condemnation to perpetually refuting the WR scenario and its derivatives.
Big picture double feature:
1. Two Oswalds left TSBD.
2. Two Oswalds observed near the murder scene (one by Red Smith & the other by Eddie Kinsley).
3. Two potential destinations (library & TT).
4. Two Oswalds at TT.The library [destination A] was the planned Oswald rubout site. By detouring to the TT [destination B] the patsy delayed his doom.
"The library [destination A] was the planned Oswald rubout site. By detouring to the TT [destination B] the patsy delayed his doom."
All of the witnesses who watched Oswald state that he turned west onto Jefferson upon reaching the corner of Patton & Jefferson; nothing about momentarily heading east toward the library.
"He proceeded to run toward Jefferson, through this front yard right here (pointing to front yard at NW corner of Patton and Jefferson) and proceeded west on Jefferson." -- Ted Callaway (1986 London trial)
"OK; our office is up high where I can have a pretty good view of what was going on. I heard the shots and, when I heard the shots, I went out on this front porch which is, like I say, high, and I saw this man coming down the street with the gun in his hand, swinging it just like he was running. He turned the corner of Patton and Jefferson, going west, and put the gun in his pants and took off, walking." -- Warren Reynolds (Warren Commission testimony)
"...a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line. Upon reaching the intersection of Patton Avenue and Jefferson Street, the individual stopped running and began walking at a fast pace, heading west on Jefferson." -- 1/22/64 FBI report of interview with Harold Russell
"When the individual reached the intersection of Patton Avenue and Jefferson Street, he placed the weapon inside his waistband and began walking west on the north side of Jefferson Street." -- 1/22/64 FBI report of interview with Pat Patterson
"Approximately one minute later he observed a white male, approximately thirty years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying either an automatic pistol or a revolver in his hands, and while running was either attempting to reload same or conceal the weapon in his belt line. Upon reaching the intersection of Patton Avenue and Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, the individual then proceeded west on Jefferson..." -- 1/22/64 FBI report of interview with L.J. Lewis
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13 minutes ago, Jean Ceulemans said:
Trying to follow things here, I never studied the Tippit case in great detail.
But what happened with that bus scheduled at 1:12PM?
Do we have the name of the driver? Did he see anything on his way there? Nothing at all? He could have been close to the shooting, perhaps noticed a police car, LHO,... ? I don´t recall reading about him?
Obviously if the shooting occurred at 1:14/1:15, then the 1:12 bus schedule to stop over one block away is meaningless.
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4 minutes ago, Robert Morrow said:
If you only live just a few minutes walk away from the bus stop, why do you want to leave at 1:04PM - walk 6 minutes and be 12 minutes early for your 1:22PM bus? Why not leave at 1:04PM, being a tad late, and then getting to your bus stop a few minutes before the 1:12PM bus gets there. If you, a waitress, have taken the bus so many times, surely one would know how to time it pretty good.
"If you only live just a few minutes walk away from the bus stop, why do you want to leave at 1:04PM - walk 6 minutes and be 12 minutes early for your 1:22PM bus?"
And there lies the point. Perhaps she was intending on arriving at the bus stop at 1:15 (which is the ONLY time she ever gives for anything related to the bus and/or bus stop). This would be perfectly reasonable in order to catch the 1:22 bus. My opinion is that she did not leave her apartment at 1:04. The police tapes support my opinion.
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5 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:
Hi Donald -- last time we took up this topic you argued in favor of Brock as Hill's "man in the car with me that can ID the suspect." See your "1:22pm DPD radio message translates as the jacket was planted and the witness transplanted (revision)" thread.
It still resonates to a degree although I can't say I've completely abandoned my position that Hill was just making noise about a passenger. The critical component of the radio message is the part about his location at 12th & Beckley, the sheriff's substation, at a time when the entire constabulary & others had deployed to the library. Hill put this information on the wire for a purpose, possibly to make sure the sheriff's dispatcher knew he was in position for an intercept if the ambush failed of its purpose.
As it turned out the ambush failed completely. Oswald, after crossing East Jefferson in front of the ambulance and heading toward the library, stopped and went somewhere else by means which can only be surmised. Incidentally, the idea that Oswald detoured to his room at the boarding house to pick up a revolver has little traction. Leaving aside the provenance issue, there was no way to hide a revolver in the cubbyhole he occupied from the prying eyes of his nosy landlady.
A better idea was to pick up his halves of the torn dollar bills discovered by Armstrong at the archives. Oswald needed them for authentication at either the library or the theater. Problem was he had spent the night in Irving, necessitating a stop at his room where they would have been easy to hide.
"Oswald, after crossing East Jefferson in front of the ambulance and heading toward the library, stopped and went somewhere else by means which can only be surmised."
No. All of the witnesses who watched Oswald state that he turned west onto Jefferson upon reaching the corner of Patton & Jefferson; nothing about momentarily heading east toward the library.
"He proceeded to run toward Jefferson, through this front yard right here (pointing to front yard at NW corner of Patton and Jefferson) and proceeded west on Jefferson." -- Ted Callaway (1986 London trial)
"OK; our office is up high where I can have a pretty good view of what was going on. I heard the shots and, when I heard the shots, I went out on this front porch which is, like I say, high, and I saw this man coming down the street with the gun in his hand, swinging it just like he was running. He turned the corner of Patton and Jefferson, going west, and put the gun in his pants and took off, walking." -- Warren Reynolds (Warren Commission testimony)
"...a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line. Upon reaching the intersection of Patton Avenue and Jefferson Street, the individual stopped running and began walking at a fast pace, heading west on Jefferson." -- 1/22/64 FBI report of interview with Harold Russell
"When the individual reached the intersection of Patton Avenue and Jefferson Street, he placed the weapon inside his waistband and began walking west on the north side of Jefferson Street." -- 1/22/64 FBI report of interview with Pat Patterson
"Approximately one minute later he observed a white male, approximately thirty years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying either an automatic pistol or a revolver in his hands, and while running was either attempting to reload same or conceal the weapon in his belt line. Upon reaching the intersection of Patton Avenue and Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, the individual then proceeded west on Jefferson..." -- 1/22/64 FBI report of interview with L.J. Lewis
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4 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:
Helen Markham, in fact, was a very, very good "witness" because she was absolutely cocksure that she saw Officer J.D. Tippit being shot at about 1:06 to 1:07PM. She was so sure about this because she had left the clothes washing machine room at her apartment at 1:04PM and the FBI had timed her walk and it was only a mere 2 to 3 minutes to her witness spot at Tenth and Patten.
Helan Markham was a damn good witness because her timing of the death of J.D. Tippit completely absolves Lee Harvey Oswald who the Warren Commission itself says was at his boarding home as late as 1:03PM and that is 9/10ths of a mile away.
Testimony Of Mrs. Helen Markham (mu.edu)
Mr. BALL. What has been your work most of your life since you were divorced, what kind of work have you done?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Waitress work.
Mr. BALL. You have done waitress work?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, Sir.
Mr. BALL. Where do you work now?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Eat Well Restaurant, 1404 Main Street, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BALL. Were you working there on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was.
Mr. BALL. What hours did you work?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was due at work from 2:30 in the evening until 10:30 at night.
Mr. BALL. Did you leave your home some time that morning to go to work?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That evening?
Mr. BALL. Morning.
Mrs. MARKHAM. That morning?
Mr. BALL. You left your home to go to work at some time, didn't you, that day?
Mrs. MARKHAM. At one.
Mr. BALL. One o'clock?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it was a little after 1.
Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to catch the bus?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On Patton and Jefferson.
Mr. BALL. Patton and Jefferson is about a block south of Patton and 10th Street, isn't it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I think so.
Mr. BALL. Well, where is your home from Patton and Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I had came--I come one block, I had come one block from my home.
Mr. BALL. You were walking, were you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I came from 9th to the corner of 10th Street.
Mr. BALL. And you were walking toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Tenth Street runs the same direction as Jefferson, doesn't it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. It runs in a generally east and west direction?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And Patton runs north and south?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; up and down this way.
Mr. BALL. So you were walking south toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You think it was a little after 1?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1.
Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.
Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was.
Mr. BALL. When you came to the corner of Patton and 10th Street--first of all, what side of the street were you walking on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Now you have got me mixed up on all my streets. I was on the opposite of where this man was.
Mr. BALL. Well, you were walking along the street--
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the street.
Mr. BALL. On Patton, you were going toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you were on the right- or left-hand side of the street as you were walking south?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That would be on the left.
Mr. BALL. Your right.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it would be right.
Mr. BALL. Right-hand side, wouldn't it? When you came to the corner did you have to stop before you crossed 10th Street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Why?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On account the traffic was coming.
Mr. BALL. And you stopped there on the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That would be the northwest corner, wouldn't it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Northwest corner.
Mr. BALL. Is that right?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it is. I believe it is the northwest corner.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any man walking at that time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen this man on the opposite side, across the street from me. He was almost across Patton Street.
Mr. BALL. Almost across Patton?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Walking in what direction?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I guess this would be south.
Mr. BALL. Along 10th, east? Was it along 10th?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Walking away from you, wasn't he?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was walking up 10th, away from me.
Mr. BALL. To your left?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was on the opposite side of the street to me like that.
Mr. BALL. Had he reached the curb yet?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost ready to get up on the curb.
Mr. BALL. What did you notice then?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I noticed a police car coming.
Mr. BALL. Where was the police car when you first saw it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was driving real slow, almost up to this man, well, say this man, and he kept, this man kept walking, you know, and the police car going real slow now, real slow, and they just kept coming into the curb, and finally they got way up there a little ways up, well, it stopped.
Mr. BALL. The police car stopped?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What about the man? Was he still walking?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The man stopped.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you see the man do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw the man come over to the car very slow, leaned and put his arms just like this, he leaned over in this window and looked in this window.
Mr. BALL. He put his arms on the window ledge?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The window was down.
Mr. BALL. It was?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Put his arms on the window ledge?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the ledge of the window.
Mr. BALL. And the policeman was sitting where?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the driver's side.
Mr. BALL. He was sitting behind the wheel?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was he alone in the car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then what happened?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I didn't think nothing about it; you know, the police are nice and friendly, and I thought friendly conversation. Well, I looked, and there were cars coming, so I had to wait. Well, in a few minutes this man made--
Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. See the policeman? Well, this man, like I told you, put his arms up, leaned over, he just a minute, and he drew back and he stepped back about two steps. Mr. Tippit--
Mr. BALL. The policeman?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The policeman calmly opened the car door, very slowly, wasn't angry or nothing, he calmly crawled out of this car, and I still just thought a friendly conversation, maybe disturbance in the house, I did not know; well, just as the policeman got--
Mr. BALL. Which way did he walk?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards the front of the car. And just as he had gotten even with the wheel on the driver's side--
Mr. BALL. You mean the left front wheel?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; this man shot the policeman.
Mr. BALL. You heard the shots, did you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Three.
Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell to the ground, and his cap went a little ways out on the street.
Mr. BALL. What did the man do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The man, he just walked calmly, fooling with his gun.
Mr. BALL. Toward what direction did he walk?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Come back towards me, turned around, and went back.
Mr. BALL. Toward Patton?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; towards Patton. He didn't run. It just didn't scare him to death. He didn't run. When he saw me he looked at me, stared at me. I put my hands over my face like this, closed my eyes. I gradually opened my fingers like this, and 1 opened my eyes, and when I did he started off in kind of a little trot.
Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?
Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.
Mr. BALL. Did you yell at him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. When I pulled my fingers down where I could see, I got my hand down, he began to trot off, and then I ran to the policeman.
Mr. BALL. Before you put your hands over your eyes, before you put your hand over your eyes, did you see the man walk towards the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did he do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he stared at me.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't do anything. I couldn't.
Mr. BALL. Didn't you say something?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I couldn't.
Mr. BALL. Or yell or scream?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I could not. I could not say nothing.
Mr. BALL. You looked at him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You looked at him
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He looked wild. I mean, well, he did to me.
Mr. BALL. And you say you saw him fooling with his gun?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had it in his hands.
Mr. BALL. Did you see what he was doing with it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was just fooling with it. I didn't know what he was doing. I was afraid he was fixing to kill me.
Mr. BALL. How far away from the police car do you think you were on the corner when you saw the shooting?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I wasn't too far.
Mr. BALL. Can you estimate it in feet? Don't guess.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I would just be afraid to say how many feet because I am a bad judgment on that.
Mr. BALL. When you looked at the man, though, when he came toward the corner, you were standing on one corner, were you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir
Mr. BALL. Where was he standing with reference to the other corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. After he had shot--
Mr. BALL. When he looked at you.
Mrs. MARKHAM. After he had shot the policeman?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was standing almost even to that curb, not very far from the curb, from the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL. Across the street from you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he look at you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And did you look at him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I sure did.
Mr. BALL. That was before you put your hands over your eyes?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; and he kept fooling with his gun, and I slapped my hands up to my face like this.
Mr. BALL. And then you ran to the policeman?
Mrs. MARKHAM. After he ran off.
Mr. BALL. In what hand did he have his gun, do you know, when he fired the shots?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir, I believe it was his right. I am not positive because I was scared.
Mr. BALL. When he came down the street towards you, in what hand did he have his gun?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had it in both of them.
Mr. BALL. He had it in both of them?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When he went towards Jefferson you say he went at sort of a trot?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he cross Patton?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Were there many other, or other people in the block at that time, or were you there with Officer Tippit almost alone?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was out there, I didn't see anybody. I was there alone by myself.
Mr. DULLES. I see. You didn't see anybody else in the immediate neighborhood?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; not until everything was over--I never seen anybody until I was at Mr. Tippit's side. I tried to save his life, which was I didn't know at that time I couldn't do something for him.The problem here is that the police tapes basically tell you what time it was that Tippit was shot and it was nowhere near Markham's estimate.
For example...
Ted Callaway testified that after hearing the five gun shots, he ran out to the sidewalk on Patton. This was a little over a half block south of the shooting scene. Callaway saw a man (who he later identified as Oswald) cutting across Patton as he (Oswald) made his way south on Patton (towards Callaway's position). Callaway hollered out to the man as the man continued south on Patton past Callaway's position. Callaway testified that the man was running and holding a gun. Callaway saw the man head west on Jefferson (the same direction as the theater).
Once the man turned west onto Jefferson, Callaway ran a "good hard run" up to the corner of Tenth and Patton. Callaway, noticing the stopped patrol car, went to the car and saw the officer (Tippit) lying dead in the street. Callaway said the first thing he did was to grab the police car radio and report the shooting. He said he didn't know if anyone had reported it yet, so he decided to report it himself.
To recap, Callaway hears the shots. Runs to the sidewalk. Sees the gunman run south on Patton the entire block from Tenth to Jefferson. Runs the two-thirds of a block up to the shooting scene. Goes over to the police car and the first thing he does is grab the radio and report the shooting to the police dispatcher.
How much time do you believe passed from the time Callaway heard the shots to the time he reported the shooting on the police radio?
Let's say two minutes pass from the time Oswald shoots Tippit to the time Oswald turns the corner from Patton onto Jefferson. This is a little over one block and Oswald was running.
Let's say it takes Callaway one minute when he made the "good hard run" the two-thirds of a block from his location to the patrol car.
If these two time estimates are anywhere close to being correct, then Callaway is at the patrol car roughly three minutes after the shots rang out. Let's add another full minute for error. So we have Callaway at the patrol car using the police radio about four minutes after the shots rang out.
Here's the thing... Callaway's report to the dispatcher while using the patrol car radio took place at 1:19/1:20.
Do the math and work it backwards. At 1:19/1:20, Callaway makes the call. If four minutes have passed (and that's being generous, in my opinion) since the shots rang out, then the shots rang out around 1:15. -
4 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:
Gil Jesus- question - Was Helen Markham on the way to catch the 1:15PM bus or was it the 1:12PM bus? That is a very big distinction to make. I have always heard it was the 1:12PM. Am I right or wrong on this matter? Does anyone have absolute proof as to whether the waitress Helen Markham was on the way to the 1:12PM or 1:15PM bus.
Thanks in advance to Gil Jesus or anyone else on Education Forum who can provide clarification on this matter.
There was no 1:15 bus; only 1:12, 1:22 and about every ten minutes thereafter.
For anyone to pretend to know for a fact which bus Markham was trying to catch (1:12 or 1:22) just shows that they truly don't know anything at all.
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Dale Myers:
"One example is found in the Tippit case. Some argue that Helen Markham wasn’t a reliable witness – that she was wrong about the time that Tippit was shot, that her description of the shooter didn’t match Oswald exactly, or that her identification of Oswald at the line-up was made after she had been administered smelling salts.But can one believably and logically dismissed other witnesses who didn’t see the shooting, as Markham did, but identified Oswald as the man they saw fleeing the scene? Especially given the fact that we know for certain that the man that others saw fleeing the scene was the same person that Markham saw shoot Officer Tippit?After all, Markham saw the gunman running toward the corner of Tenth and Patton immediately after the shooting. Cab driver William W. Scoggins saw the same man coming toward him, cross the lawn of the corner house (where Barbara J. and Virginia R. Davis stood watching the same man), jump through the bushes and flee south on Patton. Used car manager Ted Callaway saw the same man as he leapt through the bushes, run past Scoggins, and cross Patton Street. As the gunman passed Callaway, and used car porter Sam Guinyard, four men – Warren Reynolds, B.M. Patterson, L.J. Lewis and Harold Russell – saw the same man trotting toward them. The gunman hesitated briefly at the corner of Patton and Jefferson Boulevard, then turned west toward Crawford. Two of the men – Reynolds and Patterson – followed the same man until he slipped behind two used furniture stores next to a convenience store adjacent to the Texaco service station at Crawford and Jefferson."https://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2023/11/
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15 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:
278K views10 months agoLee Edward Bowers Jr. was a witness to the assassination of United States President John F. Kennedy in Dallas, Texas on ...Reviewing Lee Bowers 11/22/1963 recollection statements in the Mark Lane documentary "Rush To Judgement" I don't see how anyone could "not" see Bower's credibility.
The man is intelligent, well spoken, calm, extremely detail orientated and sincere sounding.
He is telling everyone this direct observation:
That he saw a commotion near the picket fence area and that something occurred during this commotion that was unusual enough for him to remember it being noticeably memorable such as a "flash of light or puff of smoke." His words.
Bowers also says with unambiguous clarity the time sequence of the shots he heard.
3 shots... knock...knock-knock.
One shot followed by two more shots almost on top of each other. Leading him ( Bowers ) to conclude that the last two shots could not have been fired by the same gun.
The FBI told him he was no expert in this area of physical science and he said he had to agree with them.
Wonder if the Warren Commission put any time investigating Bower's recollections of 3 cars coming into his lot just minutes before the shooting. One driven by a man talking into a hand held mike.
Were these Dallas PD, Dallas Sheriff, FBI, Army intelligence.
And don't forget another of Lane's interview subjects in Rush To Judgement.
The maintenance man who watched the whole shooing from on top of the Building Annex just South of Elm and Houston.
He described seeing a heavier set suited man running full speed along the backside of the picket fence area toward the Texas School Book Depository building within "seconds" of the shooting. Before anyone had run to the grassy knoll and parking lot beyond to flood that area.
I see you finally decided to actually watch the Bowers interview with Lane. Now, do you still believe that Bowers ever had a finger cut off?
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21 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:
So, Bowers couldn't possibly have suffered a finger injury after this Mark Lane interview, Bill?
Also, why are you referencing a debunked JFKA source like Posner-- a man whose work has no credibility?
Can you, at least, acknowledge that Bowers was threatened prior to his untimely death?
"So, Bowers couldn't possibly have suffered a finger injury after this Mark Lane interview, Bill?"
After? The Kook theory goes that Bowers was kidnapped, threatened and had a finger cut off during the winter of '63/'64. Bowers was filmed for Rush To Judgement in 1966. Also, Bowers died in 1966. How much of a window was there between his filmed interview with Lane and the time of his death? I suppose you're insinuating that the conspirators/kidnappers took him away, threatened him, cut off his finger and released him only to finally decide to kill him the following week or month?
Maybe you need to catch up.
"Also, why are you referencing a debunked JFKA source like Posner-- a man whose work has no credibility?"
I haven't referenced Posner at all, ever.
"Can you, at least, acknowledge that Bowers was threatened prior to his untimely death?"
I don't know that Bowers was ever threatened and neither do you.
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3 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:
That makes what? About 20+ highly known and nefarious JFKA characters all dying in 1966/1967. So many connected to the Subcommittee hearings?
How about the actuary violent death odds on this group alone?
Wrong decade.
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3 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:
Based on what?
The source of the account of the severed finger was, apparently, a personal friend of Bowers.
His wife also reported that Bowers had been threatened and told not to talk.
Posner is a well known l-i-a-r.
Why a certain forum members referencing him as a credible historian?
Have you ever seen the film version of Rush To Judgement?
If so, then you should know that Bowers is filmed sitting at a table with Mark Lane. In the filmed interview, Lane asks Bowers how many shots he heard. Bowers says he heard three shots. Lane then asks Bowers to replicate the spacing of the shots. Bowers, with one hand clearly visible resting atop the table (all five fingers intact) knocks on the tabletop with his other hand (also with all five fingers intact).
I'm sorry but some of you guys just aren't using your head.
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16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:
No one knows for sure, no autopsy, quicky cremated.
No.
We do know for sure that Bowers did not have a finger cut off by kidnappers.
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Does anyone reading through this thread really believe Lee Bowers was missing a finger? As in Bowers was kidnapped, threatened and had a finger cut off before being released by his kidnappers?
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Regarding the death of Lee Bowers, many of you are (for whatever reason) ignoring the words of ambulance driver Noel Coward, who said Bowers was unresponsive and unable to talk and was dead at the scene.
The death certificate stated that Bowers died from "multiple head and internal injuries" and that the time of death in relation to these injuries was "instant".
Dr. Roy Bohl was the attending physician at Waxahachie Hospital when Bowers arrived in an ambulance. Dr. Bohl refuted any notion that Bowers was in a "strange state of shock", per Penn Jones' allegation.
It seems many of you would prefer a nice juicy conspiracy at every turn instead of simply taking in the facts and forming the only reasonable conclusion.
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4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:
I don't know why you say that Bill. If a person is upright but on their knees, they could fall any direction (if not pushed). For example, if they are unconscious.
Yes but I was working under the assumption that if they were on their knees, they were leaning a bit forward.
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3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:
Anyone who has read Gil in the past knows the point is what I said he has made with that, that that is what he meant. Your reply suggests either you do too, but purposely chose to respond as if you understood him differently, or you don't care. That is not fair play or helpful to productive discussion. You are playing on an ambiguity over his use of the word "match". It certainly does matter what someone means. It makes it sound like you care more about making Gil look bad than the substance of the issue.
Look. The bottom line is he said the bullets didn't match the shells. He said nothing about manufacturer. There is no scientific method which can link spent bullets to spent shell casings. Perhaps he should have been more clear and less lazy.
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11 hours ago, Bill Fite said:
If the target melon is placed on a flat surface, one can impart backspin to the target melon by hitting it below the midpoint - kind of like a cue ball in pool.
But, if the target is suspended from below by a spring or from above by a rope like a head is suspended by the neck -> no backspin.
In France, there are plenty of documentaries on WW2 shown on TV. I've seen one in the past where the SS lines up victims in front of a trench and then shoots them in the back of the head -> they all fall forward. A week or so ago there was another one on with a segment on the rape of Nanking. The Japanese soldiers had 2 victims kneeling in front of them, approached them from the back with rifles and shot them in the back of their heads -> they fell forward.
I believe in the Conservation of Momentum, not only in the film, but also in the pattern of bullet fragments in the skull X-rays.
I haven't seen the footage you're referring to. Those who were shot in the head, were they on their knees? If so, of course they're going to fall forward, regardless of where they were shot from.
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56 minutes ago, Donald Willis said:
So why did Whaley say that he turned left from the viaduct at the "500 block" of Beckley?
Whaley says he "turned left, to the 500 block of North Beckley", i.e. he turned left with the intention of going to the 500 block of North Beckley (which is the destination given by his passenger).
From the viaduct, one cannot turn left at the 500 block of North Beckley.
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30 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:
Bill, I think Gil's point was the 3 + 1 counts of Winchester/Remington makes of bullets in Tippit's body, versus the 2 + 2 Winchester/Remington makes of shell hulls found at the crime scene. I don't think Gil was meaning anything other than that.
I agree that the discrepancy is well resolved on the assumption of a 5th bullet fired which missed Tippit (3 Winchesters and 2 Remingtons fired). But at least be accurate in responding to what Gil meant.
"I agree that the discrepancy is well resolved on the assumption of a 5th bullet fired which missed Tippit (3 Winchesters and 2 Remingtons fired). But at least be accurate in responding to what Gil meant."
I'll respond to what members actually say, not what they may have meant.
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1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:
Well, it did somehow devolve into a discussion of the fact that you "ended up in the LN camp," didn't it?
I was merely asking about your LN confirmation bias against Newtonian physics.
As for "focus," my lifelong problem has always been a tendency to hyper-focus.
I even published a book on the subject.
But please don't attempt to publish anything related to a bullet's transfer of energy upon striking it's target.
No bullet striking the head from the right front would cause the violent back and to the left motion.
You're confusing bullets with baseball bats.
"The Same Man"
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Oswald arrives at the rooming house at 12:58 and is back in his room "just long enough to grab a jacket", per Earlene Roberts' testimony. Therefore, he's out the door by 12:59 to 1:00.