Marjan Rynkiewicz

January 4

On 1/1/2024 at 9:28 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

Marjan:

where did you get information about Adams and Styles going first to the lift before heading to the stairwell? This diversion was not mentioned either in her WC testimony or in her exchanges with Barry Ernest, or in the audio recording from 1966 which opened this thread.

I am involved in reconstructing movements of Vicki Adams, alleged Oswald's movements, and the trajectories of Truly and Baker using a computer technology and realistic (measured) time estimates of individual nodes of movements such as opening the door leading from the stairwell to the 2nd floor or durations of descending/ascending a flight of stairs by a male or female. I have been consulting Barry on details of Vicki's and Sandra's departure.

This is what Barry wrote to me in April 2021:

"Vicki estimated she left the window between 15 and 30 seconds after the shots. Both she and Sandra told me they remembered seeing Clint Hill rush to the car, and they started away from the window before the car entered the Triple Underpass. This may be a rather imprecise way of figuring it, but if you look at the single frames of the Z-film, you'll see Hill reach for the limousine's rear hand-hold at about Z-342. The car is close to entering the Underpass at Z-462. That leaves 120 frames which, at an average speed of 18.3 frames per second, gives us 6.5 seconds.

Since Vicki was not included in any of the timed tests, absolutes are difficult."

This conversation led me to assume a 10-second interval between the time of the last shot and Vicki Adams leaving the window on the fourth floor.

The two girls took the shortest possible route to get to the entrance to the stairwell and that route would be shorter than the presumed Oswald's route from the most east corner of the sixth floor plus the time required to stash the rifle among the books. Therefore, there was no chance that Lee Oswald, should he be on the sixth floor, could descend via the stairs ahead of Adams and Styles. In the SS reconstruction of Oswald's movements, agent Howlett (Oswald) was walking while moving from the sniper's nest window to the entrance of the stairwell. In contrast, Vicki and Sandra were running both to reach the stairwell and to descend to the first floor, which adds additional seconds to their advantage.

I have also enquired with Barry about movements of Mrs. Garner. Dorothy Garner moved to the north-west part of the 4th floor immediately after Adams and Styles left. If Oswald would be following the two girls, both girls would hear his steps, and Garner would either see Oswald or for sure hear hist steps. Nothing of this happened.

The only conclusion is that nobody was using the starirwell to escape from the sixth floor in the seconds or a minute elapsing after the last shot.

However, I am not disputing a part of Baker's and Truly's encounter with Lee Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, albeit in a different scenario. In my view, Lee Oswald went to the 2nd floor from the first floor via the front stairwell once he realised Kennedy has been shot. However, this is for a different thread.

Sean Murphy Apr 30, 2011, 8:50:14 AM to

A couple of years back, I made contact with Sandra Styles. She told me
that she felt Victoria Adams had significantly exaggerated the speed
with which the pair descended from the fourth to the first floor after
the shooting.
In the light of Barry Ernest's new book 'The Girl on the Stairs', I
decided to contact Sandra once again to discuss this matter. She has
some rather interesting things to say.
Rather than summarise them (and risk putting words in Sandra's mouth),
I shall simply offer the relevant text from Sandra's own emails. In a
number of places I've asterisked key details.
Before doing so, however, I would like to apologise to Barry Ernest
for having on a previous occasion called his integrity as a researcher
into question. The gap between what Sandra has told me and what Barry
says she told him is not at all as large as I had alleged. My
apologies, Barry.
Sean Murphy

***

In my first email I asked Sandra to respond to the following words
from Barry (as posted on a research forum), who was himself responding
to what Sandra had told me a couple of years back:

'When I interviewed Sandra Styles in 2002, she said absolutely nothing
of the kind to me. What she did say was, she couldn't be sure exactly
how quickly she left the window and went down the stairs, but she
recalled she did so "rather quickly," in her words, and "when Vicki
did," again in her words. Why she would say otherwise now, especially
when she said what she did then and added, "Vicki was the more
observant one," is beyond me.'

Here was Sandra's response:

'First of all, I do not recall that Barry put much emphasis on the
timing or that we spent time discussing that aspect. I stand by what
I said to you. *At the time, I first thought we went downstairs
quickly; but in thinking about it further, I came to the conclusion
that it was not immediately. I told an interviewer (FBI? not sure)
that when we got downstairs, the police were there so I assumed we
went down quickly; however, the interviewer told me that it took the
police 15-20 minutes to get to the Depository, so I accepted that we
must have taken longer to get downstairs than I first thought.* I went
with what Victoria said because she spoke with such certainty; since I
couldn't say for sure, I didn't argue with her. *She also told office
workers that on the way down, she noticed the freight elevator cables
were moving.* I'm not sure what that would prove; but since I did not
notice that, that is what I meant when I said she was more observant.
Barry was working closely with her, and I didn't want to get into it
with her when I couldn't prove it either way.

Barry's main discussion with me concerned the outlay of the office:
the exact location of the back stairs in relation to the other
elevator, which direction the building faced, etc. Since I didn't
have scanning capabilities, I had to describe all that verbally in
several emails. We were all interviewed several times by different
entities over the next year. I always said the the same thing to each
one: that I had nothing of importance to help their investigation.
Their concern was whether I knew Oswald, had ever seen him, etc. As
to the timing of the whole thing, I wasn't sure then and can't say for
certain now. I only go by what seems reasonable. I can only report my
personal recollections the best I can. I was easily led back then,
lol. *If she said we went down immediately, I thought that must be
true. If the interviewer said that was not possible due to the amount
of time it took the police to get over there, I re-thought it and
accepted HIS assessment.* The truth may lie somewhere in between.
What is logical is that, in all the pandemonium, it is unlikely that
we would hear shots and head for the back stairs!'

***

In my reply, I put two points to Sandra:

1) The authorities' claim that it took 15-20 minutes for police to get
to the Depository was way off.
2) Barry had come across the so-called Stroud document, in which
Dorothy Ann Garner is reported to have told authorities she saw Baker
and Truly come up onto the fourth floor AFTER Adams and Styles had
left it.

Sandra's response:

'Hmmmmmmm, points to ponder. At this point, I'm wondering whether I
was even there! hahaha
1. My initial sense was that we went down soon after, and the 15-20
minute delay given by the investigator DID seem a bit long, but I took
his word for it. We did linger at the window a bit trying to sort it
out, and I'm sure it was Vicki's idea to go find out what was going
on; therefore we wouldn't have waited a long time to make the decision
to go downstairs.

I am certain that we went to the public elevator
first, but may not have waited long there either.

My hesitancy on the
timing in all the interviews probably accounts for why they did not
pursue further information from me. As I told everyone who ever
asked, I had no real sense of that aspect of the investigation.
Still, logic tells me it had to take a couple of minutes at least for
things to sink in and to make the decision to go. Therefore, *I'll
give up a few of those minutes but still don't remember it's being a
matter of a few seconds. However, I yield to wiser heads if the
evidence is there.*

2. I know nothing of Dorothy Garner's part. I don't know where she
was at the time. Her office was near the front elevator, but she
could have been in the lunch area on the other side near the back
stairs. It seems odd to me that if the two men ran up the back stairs
a minute or so after the shooting, we did not encounter them on our
way down even if we had left immediately and even more strange that
Mrs. Garner would have been in a position to see them coming up. It
all goes back to the fact that I could be totally off on my
calculations, and anything is possible. I cannot swear in any venue
that what I thought was actually true. I still see it all in my
mind's eye and have not changed my opinion about what we did and when,
but I could be mistaken about the number of minutes. I suppose I
could blame the fact that I am 71 and let it go at that!! No, that
would be too easy.'

***

In my reply, I asked Sandra a number of follow-up questions:

a) Could she recall what her initial time estimate for their going to
the stairs was - i.e. before she was told that the police didn't get
to the Depository for 15-20 minutes?
Her answer: 'Not less than a minute, I thought more like a couple. I
do realize that time takes on feet of its own in a situation like a
shooting or other catastrophe, and witnesses have different takes on
it. I am glad to have the 15-minute thing put to rest; even then it
didn't make sense that it would take the DPD that long to cross the
street.'

b) Could she describe the layout of the fourth floor?
Her answer: 'Here is the layout of the office: Mr. Bergen's office
was in the SE corner and opened into the reception area, as did the
publlic elevator and Dorothy's office. Directly across from Dorothy's
office was a small conference room. Behind the reception area were
the desks of the Customer Service Reps (I was one of those) and
Records (Elsie's job). Then there were the stacks where free teacher
aids and supplies were kept. On the other side of the stacks was the
break/lunch area (not a separate enclosed room), which had a table,
coffeepot and a refrigerator (no drink machine). It was all open; the
only doors were in the bosses' offices, the conference room, and the
back. The elevator opened directly into the reception area. The door
in the NW corner of the breakroom led to the stairs/freight elevator/
storage area.'

c) Could she give any more detail on Victoria's observation about the
elevator cables moving?
Her answer: 'I don't remember any of that. She didn't mention it to
me on the way down or up. As I recall, she only mentioned it later
offhandedly, but I don't recall the circumstances as to how or exactly
when it came up in conversation.'

January 3

10 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

In this 1991 interview with researcher Mark Oakes, Dallas Police officer J.W. Foster says that he saw a bullet strike the manhole cover on the south side of Elm St.. Foster tells of an unidentified man who came up to the scene with Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers whose identity he did not challenge. Foster then says that he never saw the unidentified man pick up a bullet and put it in his pocket, although the photographic evidence shows him looking right at the man when this occurs.

Foster did not say in that youtube that he saw a bullet (a shot) hit the turf near Elm St.

And, no, Foster did not say in that youtube that he saw a bullet (the shot) strike the manhole cover on the south side of Elm St.

In the youtube Foster answers "yes sir" to the question "in your WC testimony u saw where a shot had hit the turf on the south side of Elm St?"

And the next question was "& u said that the shot had caught the manhole cover at the corner? "........ to which Foster answered "yes the concrete of the manhole cover".

Words have meanings.

Foster saw where it had (supposedly) struck. Foster did not see it strike.

And, i can add, all of this is krapp (ie there was no such bullet near that manhole).

The bullet or bullets (Hickey's first &/or second shot) passed say 10ft north of that manhole.

January 1

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Marjan:

where did you get information about Adams and Styles going first to the lift before heading to the stairwell? This diversion was not mentioned either in her WC testimony or in her exchanges with Barry Ernest, or in the audio recording from 1966 which opened this thread.

I am involved in reconstructing movements of Vicki Adams, alleged Oswald's movements, and the trajectories of Truly and Baker using a computer technology and realistic (measured) time estimates of individual nodes of movements such as opening the door leading from the stairwell to the 2nd floor or durations of descending/ascending a flight of stairs by a male or female. I have been consulting Barry on details of Vicki's and Sandra's departure.

This is what Barry wrote to me in April 2021:

"Vicki estimated she left the window between 15 and 30 seconds after the shots. Both she and Sandra told me they remembered seeing Clint Hill rush to the car, and they started away from the window before the car entered the Triple Underpass. This may be a rather imprecise way of figuring it, but if you look at the single frames of the Z-film, you'll see Hill reach for the limousine's rear hand-hold at about Z-342. The car is close to entering the Underpass at Z-462. That leaves 120 frames which, at an average speed of 18.3 frames per second, gives us 6.5 seconds.

Since Vicki was not included in any of the timed tests, absolutes are difficult."

This conversation led me to assume a 10-second interval between the time of the last shot and Vicki Adams leaving the window on the fourth floor.

The two girls took the shortest possible route to get to the entrance to the stairwell and that route would be shorter than the presumed Oswald's route from the most east corner of the sixth floor plus the time required to stash the rifle among the books. Therefore, there was no chance that Lee Oswald, should he be on the sixth floor, could descend via the stairs ahead of Adams and Styles. In the SS reconstruction of Oswald's movements, agent Howlett (Oswald) was walking while moving from the sniper's nest window to the entrance of the stairwell. In contrast, Vicki and Sandra were running both to reach the stairwell and to descend to the first floor, which adds additional seconds to their advantage.

I have also enquired with Barry about movements of Mrs. Garner. Dorothy Garner moved to the north-west part of the 4th floor immediately after Adams and Styles left. If Oswald would be following the two girls, both girls would hear his steps, and Garner would either see Oswald or for sure hear hist steps. Nothing of this happened.

The only conclusion is that nobody was using the starirwell to escape from the sixth floor in the seconds or a minute elapsing after the last shot.

However, I am not disputing a part of Baker's and Truly's encounter with Lee Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, albeit in a different scenario. In my view, Lee Oswald went to the 2nd floor from the first floor via the front stairwell once he realised Kennedy has been shot. However, this is for a different thread.

Sandra Styles said (somewhere) that she & Vickie firstly went to the office elevator for a short time before heading off to the worker's elevators (or that stairway).

Tests showed that Oswald could take 48 sec to get to the 2nd floor without running.

December 31, 2023

I have shown that Adams' story is 100% compatible with Oswald-fired-shots-&-skipped-down-the-stairs.

But it could well be that the WC did not understand.

December 30, 2023

Just now, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

Although not readily detected on the x-rays, a small round hole visible from intercranial side after the brain was removed is described in the autopsy report in the right occipital bone and many of the linear fracture lines converge on the described site. The appearance is in keeping with colored photographs showing a large compound,

(page 3) comminuted injury in the right frontal region, and a small round soft tissue wound in the right occipital region.

The x-rays and the photographs are diagnostic of a gunshot wound in which the bullet struck the right occiput leaving a portion of itself flattened against the outer table before penetrating the bone, producing a small hole of entry largely obscured on the x-ray by the more extensive havoc caused in the brain and anterior skull represented by extensive fractures, missing bone, disrupted soft tissues and gas within the cranial cavity. Small bullet fragments, 1mm of less, abbraided from the main bullet by its passage through the occiput are distributed along the periphery of its trajectory through the right cerebrum. The energy of the main missile resulted in an outward or centrifugal force causing many linear fracture lines and finally a bursting forward of bony fragments and brain tissue in the frontal region, apparently adjacent to the coronal suture within the right frontal bone. The main portion of the bullet had thus left the skull…..

It appears to me that Hodges could not tell from xrays where the inshoot was (on the back of the head).

is described in the autopsy report in the right occipital bone ........ This is what i have been referring to. Hodges is referring to the old autopsy report, Hodges is not saying he agrees or disagrees with the described low entry.

December 30, 2023

8 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Let's read what Hodges said again, with focus on the key sentence in his statement:

The appearance [the one he just said was described in the autopsy report] is in keeping with the color photographs showing a large compound, comminuted injury in the right frontal region, and a small round soft tissue wound in the right occipital region.

So he said that the color photos show "a small round soft tissue wound in the right occipital region." He said that the description in the autopsy report "is in keeping" with the color photos, and that those photos show a small round wound in the occiput.

I don't know how you can read his statement any other way. He discussed the autopsy report's description of the wound, and then said that the wound's described appearance corresponds to the "color photographs showing . . . a small round soft tissue wound in the right occipital region."

And let's remember that Hodges also said that

The x-rays and photographs are diagnostic of a gunshot wound in which the bullet struck the right occiput . . . producing a small hole of entry largely obscured on the x-ray by the more extensive havoc caused in the brain and anterior skull. . . . (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=32027#relPageId=3, pp. 2-3)

So clearly, Hodges himself put the wound in the right occiput and was not just repeating the autopsy report.

I find the "they weren't lying, just wrong" argument markedly far-fetched. It is just not a reasonable or plausible scenario that Finck, Lipsey, Stringer, Humes, and Boswell all committed the astonishing blunder of mistaking a wound that would have been clearly above the lambda and above the lambdoid suture for a wound that was only 1 cm above the EOP, that was 2 inches below the lambda, that was 1 inch below the lambdoid suture, and that was near the hairline. Nobody is that blind and/or that incompetent.

This scenario is as bad as, if not worse than, the scenario that the Parkland doctors, including the neurosurgeon, couldn't tell the difference between the cerebellum and the cerebrum, and that numerous doctors, nurses, medical assistants, and federal agents mistook a wound above the right ear for a back-of-head wound that included part of the occiput and that was a good 3 inches behind the right ear.

Dr Fred J Hodges report re 1975 analysis.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=32027#relPageId=5

Kennedy – Connally Shooting

Dallas, Texas, November 22, 1963

(undated report)

(page 1) This report is prepared after inspecting pertinent evidence at the National Archives, Washington, D.C., on April 18, 1975 at the direction of Mr. Robert D. Olsen. The evidence consisted of portions of pertinent amateur movies by Zapruder, Nix, and Muchmore, enlarged frames from a portion of the Zapruder film, photographs and roentgenograms of President Kennedy's body before and during the autopsy, and roentgenograms of Governor Connally made at the Parkland Hospital in Dallas on the day of the shooting. Also included were articles of clothing worn by Kennedy at the time of his assassination and bullet fragments recovered from Kennedy's body, Governor Connally's forearm wound and the car in which they were riding at the time of the shooting, and from the stretcher on which Governor Connally was carried into the hospital. Several documents were also read aloud including the autopsy report on President Kennedy and the various operative reports concerning the emergency care for President Kennedy and for Governor Conally.

This report is prepared by Fred J. Hodges, III, M.D., Professor of Radiology (Neuroradiology), The John Hopkins School of Medicine, Baltimore, Maryland. (Carriculum Vita appended). It is primarily concerned with the roentgenograms

(page 2) referred to above.

KENNEDY – Pre autopsy Skull, Chest, Abdomen and Pelvis. Films during or after autopsy of Thorax and Abodomen.

Skull: AP and two lateral views show multiple extensive fractures involving the cranial vault and orbits with outward (centrifugal) displacement of several large fragments of bone. Several large fragments of bone are missing. On a separate film, at least three fragments are radiographed. These are bony fragments recovered from the street near the site of the shooting. One large triangular piece, several centimeters in dimensions, contains multiple tine metallic fragments adjacent to a serrated bony margin representing a suture line. The cranial cavity seen on the skull films also contains multiple tine metallic fragments disposed in a crude pathway between the right occipital bone and the right posterior mid-frontal bone. One large metallic fragment is flattened against the outer table of the occiput while the others are contained within the brain. A goodly portion of the right brain is apparently missing and the anterior part of the right cranial cavity contains air.

Although not readily detected on the x-rays, a small round hole visible from intercranial side after the brain was removed is described in the autopsy report in the right occipital bone and many of the linear fracture lines converge on the described site. The appearance is in keeping with colored photographs showing a large compound,

(page 3) comminuted injury in the right frontal region, and a small round soft tissue wound in the right occipital region.

The x-rays and the photographs are diagnostic of a gunshot wound in which the bullet struck the right occiput leaving a portion of itself flattened against the outer table before penetrating the bone, producing a small hole of entry largely obscured on the x-ray by the more extensive havoc caused in the brain and anterior skull represented by extensive fractures, missing bone, disrupted soft tissues and gas within the cranial cavity. Small bullet fragments, 1mm of less, abbraided from the main bullet by its passage through the occiput are distributed along the periphery of its trajectory through the right cerebrum. The energy of the main missile resulted in an outward or centrifugal force causing many linear fracture lines and finally a bursting forward of bony fragments and brain tissue in the frontal region, apparently adjacent to the coronal suture within the right frontal bone. The main portion of the bullet had thus left the skull…..

While some fracture lines reach into the left skull and orbit, there are no metallic fragments or bullets in the left side and no perforating wounds or bony defects in the left half of the brain a seen in photographs of the removed brain.

(page 4) LOWER NECK AND CHEST: ……… (seven pages) ………

(After the front cover, there are a total of 10 pages, & lastly a page for the CURRICULUM VITA).

December 30, 2023

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Any other nitpicky points you want to bring up?

I've got to give you credit though, Marjan. You've posted more hunks of pure speculation (aka: fantasy) in these last 24 hours on this forum than anyone else I can ever think of. Congrats.

Its like a jigsaw puzzle. But i have the advantage that i can easily see all of the valid pieces, while everyone else is happily assembling mainly faux pieces, making faux pictures.

Anyhow, show me one piece of valid jigsaw that duznt fit my picture. One strike & my theory (picture) is out (or i suppose that it could be said that i have a number of theories/pictures)(in which case that particular theory/picture is out).

December 30, 2023

17 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

But the jacket can't possibly have the bus transfer in it that he got from McWatters. So what the heck are you talking about (re: Oswald wanting to save money on his bus fare before he ever exits the TSBD)?

Aha, i see what u mean. I mentioned the bin & the bus ticket transfer to help to explain why Oswald would lose sleep if he lost that jacket, i didnt mean that the ticket was in the jacket. LOL.

December 30, 2023

32 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Why have you decided to just make up this "10 seconds" figure? You know full well that Adams testified they stayed at the 4th-floor window for "15 to 30 seconds". So why are you now pretending it was as little as ten?

Plus, there's this 2011 info from conspiracy theorist Sean Murphy:

"Sandra Styles claimed she told Ernest what she was now telling me: that she and Victoria Adams did *not* go to the rear stairs anything close to as quickly as Victoria had claimed." -- Sean Murphy; January 27, 2011

The critical thing is that Adams & Styles trailed Oswald by a certain time (on the stairs)(at the 4th floor). I forget my calculations re what exactly that certain time could be. It might have been at least 15 sec, & at most 30 sec. A 15 sec window.

The next critical thing re timing is the time taken for Oswald to get to the 4th floor.

If u insist that Oswald took 30 sec after his shot-2 to get to the 4th floor then i would say that Adams took 45 to 60 sec (to get to the stairs).

If u insist that Oswald took 40 sec, then i would say that Adams took 55 to 70 sec. Etc etc.

My ploy also works for 50 sec & for 60 sec etc. But then we start to run into problems for the timing of Baker getting to the 2nd floor. But here again i can invoke a similar ploy. If u insist that Oswald took zzz seconds to get to the 2nd floor then i can simply say that Baker took zzz sec plus say 20 sec.

The acceptable trailing time window for Adams' going down the stairs is critical, but the overall times for the movements of Baker Oswald & Adams are not very critical (except that if u stretch one then u have to stretch the others).

In other words, the exact time that Adams stayed at the window need not be critical, ie it need not be fatal to my theory re everybody's timings, it merely affects the probable times for Oswald & for Baker (& their allowable times/timings are in the plus or minus say 30 sec area, before they start to stink).

December 30, 2023

17 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

But that was only AFTER he left the TSBD. You've got him desperately trying to get his jacket BEFORE he ever switched from the bus to the taxi. You've got your chronology all messed up here.

No, i have Oswald thinking about getting his jacket while Oswald is still on the 2nd floor (after Baker & Truly had passed).

Oswald abandons his jacket, & takes the front stairs. But, after getting to the front doors without any further trouble, Oswald realizes that he can (a) walk throo the first floor to the Domino Room to get his jacket, or (b) he can exit the main doors & walk around outside to the Houston Dock, & enter there (like he does each morning) to get his jacket, which he does (except that while walking north up Houston he sees Officer Barnett, who looks vicious)(so, its goodbye jacket)(& he duz a u-turn & walks south then crosses Houston at Elm then catches the bus).

December 30, 2023

2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Marjan:

your timeline suggests that Adams' and Styles' descending followed Oswald's who already was on the second floor when Adams and Styles started their descend. But Adams and Styles left the 4th floor within about 10 seconds after the last shot and had a shorter path to the stairwell than Oswald who also needed to stash his rifle among the book boxes. Thus, Adams and Styles could only be ahead of Oswald. However, they would be able to hear Oswald if he followed him about three flights of stairs (one flight of stairs takes about 7 seconds to pass) as the stairs produced all kind of noises.

Mrs. Garner moved to the vicinity of the stairwell right after Adams and Styles left and therefore, she was able to register Baker and Truly as they ascended the stairs; this is entirely all right. However, Garner did not hear or see anyone descending the stairs after Adams and Styles left and before Baker and Truly reached the fourth floor.

The only solution to accommodate these circumstances is that nobody was descending through the stairwell after the shooting, neither Oswald nor anyone else.

Read my long explanation of Oswald's use of the stairs earlier in this thread. This is the only solution. No other solution exists or possibly exists.

Re Adams & Styles....... they left the window after say 10 sec. They firstly went to their office lift & then lost another say 10 sec. Then they probly exited the lift area & entered the storage area via a door near their lift (rather than going back into their office & using their office door to enter the storage area). Then once in the storage area they would have klomped to the rear stairs (praps they intended to use the lifts if available)(they were not available). Garner (in the office) would have heard their klomping as they passed along the office/storage wall along the near side of the storage area, & Garner herself then entered the storage area (to look throo the western windows to see the commotion near the grassy knoll carpark).

Adams' & Styles' klomping would have drowned out any noise made by Oswald.

December 30, 2023

7 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Huh?? What's that got to do with his blue jacket?

Are you suggesting he had a "Get On The Bus Free" ticket in his blue jacket?

Oswald got a potential refund on his original bus ticket in Elm St when he got off & got a taxi.

The "refund" or whatever it is called would have enabled him to save a few cents if he caught a bus to his safe house (which he didnt)(too late)(damn Tippit).

December 30, 2023

5 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Why not? We know Baker & Truly DID briefly emerge on the 4th floor during their journey thru the building.

We merely need to accept these possible alternative scenarios:

1. Baker & Truly were both inside the lunchroom with Oswald on the 2nd floor at the precise moment when Adams & Styles were also on the 2nd floor making their mad dash toward the ground floor.....and, therefore, A&S didn't see B&T (or Oz).

or....

2. Dorothy Garner got the chronology mixed up SEVEN MONTHS LATER (on June 2, 1964) when she tried to reconstruct the timeline for Assistant United States Attorney Martha Joe Stroud.

1. Baker did not enter the lunchroom. Baker called Oswald over to Baker.

2. The only way that Garner could have gotten the chronology wrong is if Garner saw Baker & Truly before Miss Adams went downstairs. In which case Adams (& Styles) would have been trailing well behind Garner. Nope, duznt add up.

December 30, 2023

5 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Boy, Oswald was sure desperate to get that jacket, wasn't he?

But.....why?

Oswald was a penny pincher (like me). Isnt there a story involving someone pinching his rubbish bin, where Oswald went to a lot of trouble to recover his cheap bin. And in the end Oswald tried to save a few cents on his bus ticket while being hunted. Anyhow, it looks like Oswald planned to pick up his jacket on the way out after the shooting. But praps he did not plan even that.

December 30, 2023

51 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

The fact Adams says she saw a policeman talking to a man in a suit when she came out the rear door is yet more proof she ran down the stairs much later than she thought. Barnett did not talk to anyone when he was at the rear of the tsbd. Therefore Adams is talking about a dpd officer and most likely a sheriff officer talking in the railroad yard at the rear of the tsbd, and it would have taken them around 4 to 5 minutes to get into a position for Adams to see them upon leaving the rear door of the tsbd.

I was thinking that u meant that Adams saw the G-man in a suite etc nearer the grassy knoll carpark (west of the TSBD).

There was no G-man (nor Officer) north of the dock near the tracks (at least untill much later anyhow). That area was next to Rackley, who said he was standing near the tracks for say a total of 10 minutes.

Rackley tells us that some plain clothes G-men guarded the dock area many minutes after the shots. At which time (i think) Barnett left the dock area. But (i know that) Adams exited that dock & rounded the building (going anti-clockwise) at about the same time as Baker & Truly entered the stairs.

December 30, 2023

19 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

Barnett was gone by that stage. I think she is referring to some policeman in the railroad yard north of the tsbd. And the policeman is probably talking to one of the deputy sheriffs who ran back there, up from the grassy knoll.

Adams says in the interview she stayed at the window for up to 60 seconds. And according to styles they went to the elevator. Prob spent another 30 seconds trying to get the elevator to work before deciding to use the back stairs. All this allows LHO to get well down past the 4th floor. So no mystery here.

I think u are correct that Adams saw the man in a suite after she had rounded the building, not near the dock. Yes that makes more sense.

But re Adams & Styles taking an extra 90 sec or so to get going........ nope, duznt work....... the problem is that Garner followed not very far behind Adams & Styles, but Garner still got to see Baker & Truly on the 4th floor......... so, if Adams & Styles were later than Baker & Truly then Garner would not have seen Baker & Truly..........or ......... if Garner saw Baker & Truly then Adams & Styles would have bumped into Baker & Truly on the stairs.

So, that means that my very detailed analysis of movements is very correct ....... & Adams & Styles were not far behind Oswald going down the stairs ............... Adams & Styles had a very small window behind Oswald, not too close, not too far. As explained by myself a year or two ago.

December 30, 2023

Ok, i do see a real problem, the only problem.

Vickie Adams' conversation……..

(18:14) … …… i left the building from a dock about here……………… now there are 2 witnesses according to the WR who say that the first 5 minutes of the assassination they were watching the rear of the building & they saw no one enter or leave………. these 2 witnesses i saw who were standing here they were talking together & were not even looking at the building……. one was a Dallas policeman & the other one was a man in a suite…… & who they were i don’t know……. but anyhow i proceeded back this way & around the building……….. (19:02).

Who was the man in a suite in the area of the dock in the first few minutes.

Officer Barnett was the policeman.

About 60 yd north of the building we had Rackley (or was it Rachley) that watched for say 10 minutes, & he said that he did not see anyone come out of the dock in the first few minutes at least.

Two News reporters parked near the dock say 5 minutes after the shots.

So, who was the man in a suite?

How did he get there before Adams?

December 30, 2023

48 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

From a 2011 discussion (which includes participation by Barry Ernest; see link below).....

DAVID V.P. SAID:

With respect to Vickie Adams, the ONLY thing a person needs to accept in order to have Oswald on the back stairs within one to two minutes after the President's assassination is to accept the almost certain fact that Victoria Adams was simply inaccurate in her time estimate about when she and Sandra Styles were on the back staircase.

And if she's off by a mere ONE MINUTE, or even less, then her whole story unravels and it then becomes quite easy to accept the fact that Oswald used the back stairs just after shooting President Kennedy from the sixth floor.

The key to pretty much knowing without a doubt that Adams and Styles were on the stairs only AFTER Lee Oswald used the same stairs is not really Oswald himself--but Roy Truly and Marrion Baker.

Because if Adams was really on the stairs as early as she said she was, she would have had virtually no choice but to have seen (or heard) the two men who we know for a fact WERE on those stairs within about 60 to 75 seconds of the assassination -- Truly and Baker.

Since Adams saw nobody and heard nobody, the very likely solution is that she was mistaken about her timing (which couldn't be a more common error with human beings), and she was on the stairs AFTER all three men (Oswald, Baker, and Truly) had already utilized the same stairs.

David Von Pein
February 14, 2011

David u are clearly wrong. If Adams was on the stairs after all 3 men had already used the stairs then Garner would not have seen Baker & Truly on the 4th floor.

December 30, 2023

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

From a 2011 discussion (which includes participation by Barry Ernest; see link below).....

DAVID V.P. SAID:

With respect to Vickie Adams, the ONLY thing a person needs to accept in order to have Oswald on the back stairs within one to two minutes after the President's assassination is to accept the almost certain fact that Victoria Adams was simply inaccurate in her time estimate about when she and Sandra Styles were on the back staircase.

And if she's off by a mere ONE MINUTE, or even less, then her whole story unravels and it then becomes quite easy to accept the fact that Oswald used the back stairs just after shooting President Kennedy from the sixth floor.

The key to pretty much knowing without a doubt that Adams and Styles were on the stairs only AFTER Lee Oswald used the same stairs is not really Oswald himself--but Roy Truly and Marrion Baker.

Because if Adams was really on the stairs as early as she said she was, she would have had virtually no choice but to have seen (or heard) the two men who we know for a fact WERE on those stairs within about 60 to 75 seconds of the assassination -- Truly and Baker.

Since Adams saw nobody and heard nobody, the very likely solution is that she was mistaken about her timing (which couldn't be a more common error with human beings), and she was on the stairs AFTER all three men (Oswald, Baker, and Truly) had already utilized the same stairs.

David Von Pein
February 14, 2011

Nope, read my earlier comment.

Oswald fires his shot-1 at pseudo Z105, the slug ricochets off a guy-rod of the overhead signal arm, the slug puts a hole in the floor of the limo, the fine lead splatter hits jfk on the back of his head, & jfk utters my god i have been hit.

Oswald fires his shot-2 at Z218, the magic bullet.

Oswald stands up & back from the window, he duznt fire his last bullet.

Oswald sees that Hickey accidentally fires an auto-burst of his AR15 at Z300 to Z312, hitting jfk in the head.

Oswald takes off.

Oswald gets to the 2nd floor after 48 sec.

Oswald just missed seeing Hines walking along the corridor near the lunch room & entering the office door from the corridor at about 46 seconds.

Oswald stops. What to do next?

Should he continue down to the first floor?

Should he go to the first floor via the front stairs?

Should he lay low in the lunch room?

His jacket is in the Domino Room.

Uh Oh -- He hears Adams & Styles klomping down the stairs in a real hurry on a mission.

Best to visit the coke machine & hope that whoever it is goes clean past.

They pass. He comes back out. What to do next?

He can't decide. He will be less conspicuous if he takes the front stairs, but he would then have to walk back into & throo the storage area to get his jacket in the Domino Room.

He decides to continue down the back stairs.

He makes a start but then Truly hollers up the elevator shaft, so he goes back up.

Then he hears Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs, & he retreats to the coke machine a second time.

He walks slow & cool.

He would have been better off diving into the lunchroom in a hurry, & laying low, he knows there is no-one in there, but he knows that if seen rushing (by Truly & Co) it will be a sure sign that he is guilty of something.

He nearly makes it, another couple of slow steps & he will be out of sight.

But damn, Baker spots a bit of him throo the glass of the door & says to come back.

Truly says that Oswald works here, & Baker & Truly gallop off.

They get to the 5th floor & take the east elevator to the 7th floor.

Oswald gets a coke to look less guilty & more cool if confronted again. And assassinations go better with coke.

The back stairs are now dangerous. He heads for the front stairs, either forgetting about his jacket or deciding that his jacket is a dead duck.

But just in case more dumb cops are entering along the corridor he goes via the office.

Damn, he meets Jeraldean Reid as she returns to her desk. Mrs Hine is also in the office but she doesn't notice Oswald, or forgets.

Reid in 3 re-enactments took exactly 120 sec to get to her desk, which is about right (ie to meet Oswald).

She says something as they pass & he mumbles something back. Its not a good look. He has no business in the office, unless wanting change for the coke machine. Its not even a short cut to the stairs. Damn. Anyhow no big deal.

He goes down the front stairs & mixes with the growing throng in the lobby near the front door without raising any suspicion.

Someone asks him about a phone.

Ok, things aint so bad, praps he can take a chance & get his jacket from the Domino Room anyhow.

Hmmm – he can get his jacket by going out the front door & down the steps & around & entering via the Houston dock (like he does each morning), & walking 16 paces to the jacket.

Getting caught walking in shouldn’t result in getting bitten by a cop.

So, off he goes, but he gets a little ways up Houston & he sees Officer Barnett on sentry duty at the dock, & Barnett looks vicious.

So, a quick U-turn & back down Houston. Buell Frazier sees him walking south along Houston.

No, the jacket is a dead duck. He decides to get out of there asap, he crosses Houston & then crosses Elm.

Tippit is waiting.

December 30, 2023

48 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

Adams was sure about the timing. Styles wasn't. She ultimately deferred to Adams

From the Girl on the Stairs p.267. "Did Miss Adams and Miss Styles leave the window right away? I asked her [Garner]. The girls did, she responded. I remember them being there and the next thing I knew, they were gone. They had left 'very quickly...within a matter of moments', she added."

Not true. Before the passage I referenced, Adams referred to Lovelady's answer when asked if he had seen her. He said he had seen someone, but wasn't sure it was Adams. So Adams was making a declaratory statement that Lovelady had seen her.

That means the falsehood the WR used to discredit Adams was that S&L weren't back to the first floor when Adams claimed she arrived there.

I have added to my earlier reply to u.

Dont forget that Styles said that they went to the elevator first (ie the office elevator).

I agree that the WC lied. But i dont agree that Adams was agreeing with Lovelady, or at least declaring that Lovelady had indeed seen Adams.

December 30, 2023

40 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

Styles initially wasn't sure that she and Adams left right away after the shots. But after discussion she deferred to Adams, according to Ernest. Garner corroborated Adams's sense of timing.

Listen again at 41:27. Referring to Lovelady Adams says, "he had just seen me on the first floor before I left the building".

She might have deferred to Adams, but that duznt change the fact that she contradicted Adams.

Garner did not corroborate Adams.

Adams did not mean that he (Lovelady) had just seen Adams, she meant that he had claimed to have just seen her. And the times & timings relate to his claim, not to reality.

Wait, i had another listen.......... At 40:38 Adams did say that...... "i did see them by the elevator"......

Yes this is amazing. Praps as u said in an earlier posting of yours,,, that praps Adams was referring to seeing S&L at a later time (near the elevator).

December 30, 2023