Were there contingency plans if the Dealey Plaza ambush failed?

[Myra Bronstein]

Is anyone aware of any reasonably solid evidence that there were contingency plans in case the Dealey Plaza ambush failed?

I've read vague remarks about explosives in Dealey Plaza.

I've read vague remarks about another ambush team near the Trade Mart.

Anyone know more about this?

[Guest Gary Loughran]

Is anyone aware of any reasonably solid evidence that there were contingency plans in case the Dealey Plaza ambush failed?

I've read vague remarks about explosives in Dealey Plaza.

I've read vague remarks about another ambush team near the Trade Mart.

Anyone know more about this?

Myra,

I think James answers as much as he can on these aspects on the "not Lucien Sarti again" (spelling) thread. IIRC.

He also says something along the lines of this will not be documented anywhere. I think the remarks may remain vague for the good reasons James stated.

If he, Al and Ryan had trouble with some 'witnesses'...well you can guess the rest

The thread in question [sarti]was one that opened my eyes to how a lot of things happened that day. It's one of my favourites on the forum.

Gary

[Myra Bronstein]

Is anyone aware of any reasonably solid evidence that there were contingency plans in case the Dealey Plaza ambush failed?

I've read vague remarks about explosives in Dealey Plaza.

I've read vague remarks about another ambush team near the Trade Mart.

Anyone know more about this?

Myra,

I think James answers as much as he can on these aspects on the "not Lucien Sarti again" (spelling) thread. IIRC.

He also says something along the lines of this will not be documented anywhere. I think the remarks may remain vague for the good reasons James stated.

If he, Al and Ryan had trouble with some 'witnesses'...well you can guess the rest

The thread in question [sarti]was one that opened my eyes to how a lot of things happened that day. It's one of my favourites on the forum.

Gary

You totally outed me Gary.

That thread was pretty much the one I was referring to. It was revelatory to me as well.

I was hoping if I caught James in a drowsy state or something he'd blurt out... more detailed revelations.

Was worth a try.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Is anyone aware of any reasonably solid evidence that there were contingency plans in case the Dealey Plaza ambush failed?

I've read vague remarks about explosives in Dealey Plaza.

I've read vague remarks about another ambush team near the Trade Mart.

Anyone know more about this?

Myra, from the moment the first shot rang out there was no way JFK was leaving Dallas alive, period, and the conspirators were well aware of this. Imagine a wounded, but vengefull Kennedy setting his Brother lose to investigate.

Once it was observed that the Dealy Plazza ambush had been successfull, other shooters could just melt away, leaving other potential patsy's completely unaware of how lucky they had been. Of course more shots would have required a different end scenario, matbe involving Cubans, either anti, or pro, the Mob, rouge intel agents, who knows. But one thing is for sure failure was not an option.

[Charles Black]

Hello Stephen

I, in most part, must disagree with you.

Yes! I agree that there were of course contingency plans, as there are in all military operations.

BUT...and it is a big BUT....only if shots were "Not Fired" in Dealey Plaza. Once "shots were fired"....it was absolutely imperative that he be killed "there". Nothing which would have followed this attempted assassination, could have been pre planned if it was unsuccessful. ALL plans and procedures regarding JFK would, by obvious neccessity, be changed immediately.....Probably a direct route to Love Field!

However, if for some reason, the "Shoot" in Dealey Plaza was aborted, there no doubt was another plan set up, posssibly at the luncheon, or after !

I do not believe that there were additonal shooting locales established beyond Dealey Plaza. This is just a personal opinion, however, I feel that there might have been one "prior" to Dealey that "was aborted" in favor of waiting for Dealey.

Charles Black

[Charles Drago]

As Charles Black notes and as I've pointed out for years, once shots were fired in Dealey -- or anywhere else -- at JFK, failure to make a kill was not an option.

We part company, however, on a Dallas fallback hit.

By its very nature, the (ultimately successful) DP attempt was a complex and, to my mind, site/date/false evidence/patsy-specific operation. If the shooting had been aborted, surely another attempt would be made. In relative terms, there was no hurry.

Would that attempt have been made on the same day? My educated guess -- and again, it is only a guess -- is that two distinct same-day Dallas scenarios would have been one too many. Even for the most gifted and inspired of planners.

No plan is foolproof. I submit that if the attack on JFK had resulted in a less-than-fatal outcome, the fallback/protective position would be to place blame on Castro, and to do so in the most public and convincing of manners. Indeed, if we accept the security stripping/faux attack hypothesis (an Operation Northwoods-like event, as suspected by Palamara, Evica, yours truly, and others) as probable, this scenario begins to make sense.

Had JFK survived and remained capable of governing, he would have been placed under enormous public pressure to strike back at the putative conspirators -- in Havana, of course.

Would he have known differently? Sure.

Was there the chance that he would resist the calls for revenge on Castro and instead expose the conspirators in his own government and in other, influential and powerful spheres, domestic and foreign? Sure.

The attack on JFK was partly the product of imposing intellect, and partly the product of -- it must be said -- twisted courage. The number of bets that can be covered is finite. Once it starts, it has to be finished. No guarantees.

The player in Dealey Plaza who called the ball, then, would have possessed pathological cunning and cool.

We underestimate the enemy at our own peril.

One man's opinion.

Charles

Edited May 30, 2007 by Charles Drago

[Ron Ecker]

I've always wondered if there wasn't a shooter or two at the Cabana, between Dealey Plaza and Parkland, in case JFK left the plaza alive.

The Cabana was at or near the intersection of Continental and Stemmons and would have a good view of the freeway, though I don't know what far from it.

[Steve Thomas]

Myra,

Is anyone aware of any reasonably solid evidence that there were contingency plans in case the Dealey Plaza ambush failed?

I've read vague remarks about explosives in Dealey Plaza.

I've read vague remarks about another ambush team near the Trade Mart.

Anyone know more about this?

In a videotaped interview with Jim Marrs, William Reymond has said that there were three teams. The second team was an explosives team situated on the west side of the underpass, and the third team was located at the Trade Mart. In his interview, Reymond does not say where he got his information, other than French Intelligence.

Steve Thomas

[Myra Bronstein]

Myra,

Is anyone aware of any reasonably solid evidence that there were contingency plans in case the Dealey Plaza ambush failed?

I've read vague remarks about explosives in Dealey Plaza.

I've read vague remarks about another ambush team near the Trade Mart.

Anyone know more about this?

In a videotaped interview with Jim Marrs, William Reymond has said that there were three teams. The second team was an explosives team situated on the west side of the underpass, and the third team was located at the Trade Mart. In his interview, Reymond does not say where he got his information, other than French Intelligence.

Steve Thomas

Thank you Steve.

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.p...54&page=147

Edited May 30, 2007 by Myra Bronstein

[Charles Drago]

M. Reymond remains a figure of some controversy.

I believe that David Mantik traveled to France in an effort to see the "other" Z-film, which was to be provided by Reymond. If David visits these pages, I hope that he will fill us in on the results of that mission, which I believe were less than satisfying.

The A-B-C Dallas contingency structure has been talked about by Gerry Patrick Hemming, too: A "French team" allegedly was waiting with some sort of shaped charge just past the triple underpass. And Umbrella Man's companion, White Windbreaker Man (AKA "The Professor," added Gerry), was supposed to have a grease gun under his jacket and be willing to run up to the care and open fire if all else failed. Again, according to GPH.

Balderdash!

I think.

Charles

[Myra Bronstein]

M. Reymond remains a figure of some controversy.

I believe that David Mantik traveled to France in an effort to see the "other" Z-film, which was to be provided by Reymond. If David visits these pages, I hope that he will fill us in on the results of that mission, which I believe were less than satisfying.

The A-B-C Dallas contingency structure has been talked about by Gerry Patrick Hemming, too: A "French team" allegedly was waiting with some sort of shaped charge just past the triple underpass. And Umbrella Man's companion, White Windbreaker Man (AKA "The Professor," added Gerry), was supposed to have a grease gun under his jacket and be willing to run up to the care and open fire if all else failed. Again, according to GPH.

Balderdash!

I think.

Charles

Well I can't find anything in English by William Reymond anyway, certainly not an interview with Marrs.

This will not be one of the easier areas to explore. Then again it's not a high priority to explore it.

Just would like to know if there's something to know.

[Duke Lane]

In a videotaped interview with Jim Marrs, William Reymond has said that there were three teams. The second team was an explosives team situated on the west side of the underpass, and the third team was located at the Trade Mart. In his interview, Reymond does not say where he got his information, other than French Intelligence.

In another videotaped interview with Jim Marrs, several persons detailed the abduction and subsequent physiological revision of their selves into others' by presences that did not feel human, but which did not reveal their phyiscal attributes ... if in fact, they had any. Myra is now Duke, Duke is now Lee, and Lee is Myra (tho' not quite as good-looking anymore - sigh).

Sorry, couldn't help myself. But it's true.

[Duke Lane]

As Charles Black notes and as I've pointed out for years, once shots were fired in Dealey -- or anywhere else -- at JFK, failure to make a kill was not an option.

We part company, however, on a Dallas fallback hit.

By its very nature, the (ultimately successful) DP attempt was a complex and, to my mind, site/date/false evidence/patsy-specific operation. If the shooting had been aborted, surely another attempt would be made. In relative terms, there was no hurry.

Would that attempt have been made on the same day? My educated guess -- and again, it is only a guess -- is that two distinct same-day Dallas scenarios would have been one too many. Even for the most gifted and inspired of planners.

No plan is foolproof. I submit that if the attack on JFK had resulted in a less-than-fatal outcome, the fallback/protective position would be to place blame on Castro, and to do so in the most public and convincing of manners. Indeed, if we accept the security stripping/faux attack hypothesis (an Operation Northwoods-like event, as suspected by Palamara, Evica, yours truly, and others) as probable, this scenario begins to make sense.

Had JFK survived and remained capable of governing, he would have been placed under enormous public pressure to strike back at the putative conspirators -- in Havana, of course.

Would he have known differently? Sure.

Was there the chance that he would resist the calls for revenge on Castro and instead expose the conspirators in his own government and in other, influential and powerful spheres, domestic and foreign? Sure.

The attack on JFK was partly the product of imposing intellect, and partly the product of -- it must be said -- twisted courage. The number of bets that can be covered is finite. Once it starts, it has to be finished. No guarantees.

The player in Dealey Plaza who called the ball, then, would have possessed pathological cunning and cool.

We underestimate the enemy at our own peril.

One man's opinion.

Charles

Since this is all just fun speculation, my thinking is that, first, once a single shot rang out, commitment was made: it was an all-or-none scenario. Once it began, the only option was success. Still, "the best laid plans" and all that, however slight the possibility may have been, failure had to be considered and planned for.

In the immediate aftermath of the attempt, what would have changed? Even if a red halo hadn't appeared around JFK's head, if Clint Hill had gotten to the limo faster as he's always wished he had, or if Kellerman had leaped the roll bar and taken the bullet for his boss, or if the last shooter on the way out had hit Jackie instead ... what would have changed? Nada.

Nobody knew - absolutely - that JFK was dead and unrevivable when the motorcade left the plaza. Whatever plans went into play started immediately, and would have had to even if JFK's heart was still beating, his head still intact. Tippit would have been shot just as he was, the cops would have left DP in droves and rushed after the cop killer just as they did, and he in turn would have died in the Texas Theater just — well, as I said, "the best laid plans..." — and a 'Plan B' devised, just as it was.

All of these things took place irrespective of JFK's health or lack thereof, and had to. The sole difference - up to this point, anyway - is that they'd have had to wait longer to get a definitive answer on JFK's condition if he'd survived. I submit that nothing else would have changed up to this point.

In the end, however, instead of a dead President and LBJ in office, they might instead have had a very angry wounded President and an Attorney General ready, willing and able to do something about it.

If JFK had survived the attack, there'd have been no Warren Commission, no Hoover-led and -fed FBI "investigation" (and maybe no Hoover!), no sham investigation to prove the patsy a "Communist," no "final and definitive answer" less than a year later, no wholesale acceptance of fiction as fact, no purchase of the "Communist conspiracy" diversion pandered by Dallas, and no retaliation against Castro and Cuba because, above all, Kennedy would have known about Ted Szalc's quiet little visit to an island in the Carribean on his behalf.

Would there have been more attempts? Here, I have to agree with Charles: there are only so many bets that can be covered completely. The shooters were not the planners, and the shooters weren't going to be found — just as they haven't — or betray their generals, who today are probably all dead.

[Ron Ecker]

White Windbreaker Man (AKA "The Professor," added Gerry), was supposed to have a grease gun under his jacket and be willing to run up to the care and open fire if all else failed. Again, according to GPH.

Balderdash!

I think.

Well, DCM (as he is also known) definitely had something bulky under his jacket, which seen from behind, as he departed the scene, looked like something similar to Citizen Kane's Rosebud.

IMO the best guess is either some sort of weapon, including possibly a case for it, or else radio equipment.

We eventually found out what Rosebud was, but I'm not as optimistic about DCM's baggage.

[Thomas Graves]

White Windbreaker Man (AKA "The Professor," added Gerry), was supposed to have a grease gun under his jacket and be willing to run up to the care and open fire if all else failed. Again, according to GPH.

Balderdash!

I think.

Well, DCM (as he is also known) definitely had something bulky under his jacket [...]

IMO the best guess is either some sort of weapon, including possibly a case for it, or else radio equipment. [...]

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Ron,

I agree. It's so obvious in the photo you posted.... Also, he was clearly talking into a walkie-talkie in one of the photos taken of him and Umbrella Man while they were sitting next to each other on the curb.... BTW, was he wearing a white or a light blue jacket?

--Thomas

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