Op Dallas

[Charles Drago]

At a Dallas breakfast before JFK Lancer's so-called Hemming Panel, GPH told Jerry Rose and me that indeed the TSBD team repelled down the building's elevator shaft.

Then and now I find the notion laughable. Who controlled the car? Who removed the equipment later? Who would want to enter that enclosed, trap-like environment? Why wouldn't securing a back staircase stand as a simpler E&E method? Wasn't the elevator "stuck" on the second floor ("first floor" for all you architecturally-challenged Europeans)?

Has any mention been made of a search of the TSBD basement?

Charles

[Ron Ecker]

At a Dallas breakfast before JFK Lancer's so-called Hemming Panel, GPH told Jerry Rose and me that indeed the TSBD team repelled down the building's elevator shaft.

As I recall, Hemming identified the shaft wafters to Weberman as Hunt and Sturgis.

If it indeed was Hunt, after leaving the shaft he apparently went somewhere to the north of the building where he donned a trench coat, to walk calmly across Elm again (photographed in the process), then proceeded to a train car to rejoin Sturgis and switch into tramp's clothing.

This was all part of a plan to make the operation as complicated as possible, thus confounding researchers for decades.

On the TSBD, the Thomas article referenced in another thread has some interesting photos of the inside of the building. I've never seen them before. I wonder where they came from and if there are more.

[Robert Howard]

Although it is just my perception, relying on any former members of the intelligence agencies, [whether they were/are affiliated with the "Agency," Interpen, et cetera] is very problematic, in integrating their "recollections" within a context that can honestly be considered definitive......I would cite Frank Fiorini aka Strurgis as someone who would be problematic, with Hemming a close second......

Ultimately the best approach, as far as I can tell, is to stay with sworn testimony under oath, as in the HSCA depo's et cetera.....

After reading Warren Commission, Church Committee & HSCA testimonies for years there are instances where the "dance" between the person being deposed and the inevitable "conversation 'off the record.'

sometimes these situations take on a strange atmosphere.....say for example when the FBI's New Orleans Warren DeBrueys was deposed by the HSCA, the conversation turns to Oswald's televised debate between Ed Butler and Carlos Bringuer, and DeBruey's say's referring to Oswald...."I don't think he wanted to do that...." The INCA Board of Director's has some interesting names.........

On an unrelated note the WC Testimony of Robert Oswald where he is asked about his comment recorded in his diary about the Paines....... "somehow Mr & Mrs Paine are involved in this affair," when he was asked what he meant by that Robert Oswald alluded to the Dallas newspaper stories citing his brother Lee allegedly "being passed a rifle over the fence" by someone who came to the Grand Prairie rifle range who was looked at as a possible candidate as a "co-conspirator." Robert stated that he felt that it was his opinion that Michael Paine, based on the newspaper description of the physical characteristics of the other person that was the person on the other side of the fence...See WC Hearings Vol 1 Testimony of Robert Oswald page 347......

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=359

The reports of Western Union telegrams being sent to Oswald, recieved quite a bit of newspaper coverage, back then but nothing ever seemed to turn up........Certainly the fact that on 11/22/63 someone less than 2 miles away from the TSBD at around 10:00-10:45 A.M. on Industrial Blvd. buying junk food who had a Drivers License with a name similar to O.H. Lee wasn't common knowledge in those days.......or the fact that it took until 1969 with the publication of Chief Curry's book, to discover that Roger Craig had been telling the truth all along.....as far as his story about his activities being corroborated the afternoon of November 22........

[Charles Drago]

At a Dallas breakfast before JFK Lancer's so-called Hemming Panel, GPH told Jerry Rose and me that indeed the TSBD team repelled down the building's elevator shaft.

As I recall, Hemming identified the shaft wafters to Weberman as Hunt and Sturgis.

If it indeed was Hunt, after leaving the shaft he apparently went somewhere to the north of the building where he donned a trench coat, to walk calmly across Elm again (photographed in the process), then proceeded to a train car to rejoin Sturgis and switch into tramp's clothing.

This was all part of a plan to make the operation as complicated as possible, thus confounding researchers for decades.

On the TSBD, the Thomas article referenced in another thread has some interesting photos of the inside of the building. I've never seen them before. I wonder where they came from and if there are more.

Ron,

I think you're on target when you conclude that complexity was designed into the overall operation in order to confuse and render impotent generations of investigators and researchers.

However, to shooting team members on the ground (figuratively!) in DP, complexity would equal risk -- unacceptable risk.

The distinction is between smoke and mirrors (quite literally: the cordite clouds on the knoll and the Oswald doppelganger, for two of many pre- and post-shooting examples) on one hand, and no-nonsense protection of the actual hunters and facilitation of their E and E procedures on the other.

An elegantly simple execution insulated by a diabolically conceived and executed complexity of false leads, false sponsors, disinformation ...

Charles

[Charles Drago]

No more apologies for double posts that are not the fault of posters.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Charles Drago

[Lee Forman]

...If it is Hargraves on the steps with a remote control transmitter - he would need a clear line-of-sight to avoid possible interference. I believe that the position on the stairs would have given him that.

...

- lee

I'm confused. I think Hargraves is Umbrella Man.

Don't let me stop you. I don't see the resemblance, nor the logic, personally. Hargraves is indicating that he was present on assignment - not to act the part of a signal person, observer, distraction element, whatever. TUM doesn't look like Gordon Novel to me either. Having a photo of Louis Witt from the 1963 timeframe would have been extremely useful, but no one requested it, which would have been quite a normal process, IMO.

"For my part there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length.

And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly." CC

[Myra Bronstein]

...If it is Hargraves on the steps with a remote control transmitter - he would need a clear line-of-sight to avoid possible interference. I believe that the position on the stairs would have given him that.

...

- lee

I'm confused. I think Hargraves is Umbrella Man.

Don't let me stop you.

Needless to say...

I don't see the resemblance,

I sure do.

Photos attached.

I don't see the resemblance, nor the logic, personally.

Many believe DCM was Felipe Vidal Santiago who worked closely with Hargraves.

So it'd be logical for them to work closely in Dealey Plaza.

It also seems possible that the umbrella could have served as a go/no-go signal for contingency explosives in case the shooters missed. Hargraves, being the explosives expert, was a logical person to make the go/no-go call.

Hargraves is indicating that he was present on assignment - not to act the part of a signal person, observer, distraction element, whatever.

I tend to be skeptical of anything the professional murderers and liars at the CIA say.

I think that's only logical.

[Lee Forman]

Hargraves, being the explosives expert, was a logical person to make the go/no-go call.

Hardly.

I am out of attachment space or I would load some view of the elevator. The elevator in the TSBD appears to have been the type with the pullaway gate - hence the shaft would have been accessible from 2-5 if the lift were stopped on 6.

Although I requested additional space, I did not receive any. Would someone be willing to post the photos for me? I combined them into one file.

- lee

[Myra Bronstein]

Hargraves, being the explosives expert, was a logical person to make the go/no-go call.

Hardly.

I am out of attachment space or I would load some view of the elevator. The elevator in the TSBD appears to have been the type with the pullaway gate - hence the shaft would have been accessible from 2-5 if the lift were stopped on 6.

Although I requested additional space, I did not receive any. Would someone be willing to post the photos for me? I combined them into one file.

- lee

I can do that Lee.

I assume you're aware that you can free up space by deleting old photos though.

[Lee Forman]

Hargraves, being the explosives expert, was a logical person to make the go/no-go call.

Hardly.

I am out of attachment space or I would load some view of the elevator. The elevator in the TSBD appears to have been the type with the pullaway gate - hence the shaft would have been accessible from 2-5 if the lift were stopped on 6.

Although I requested additional space, I did not receive any. Would someone be willing to post the photos for me? I combined them into one file.

- lee

I can do that Lee.

I assume you're aware that you can free up space by deleting old photos though.

Thanks Myra. I finally figured out how to do it and removed some material that I don't think will be missed!

Elevator shots. I assume that this was the freight elevator? Frames ripped from Wolper's 4 Dark Days.

- lee

Edited July 20, 2007 by Lee Forman