Who's Right, Oliver or Vincent?

[Tim Gratz]

From "JFK" wherein the Paines are called the Williams:

I wonder about the Williams' [sic]. Just where did the first description of Oswald come from at 12:44? No one knows. They claimed it was Brennan's, but his description came after 1 PM. Who called? Somehow the FBI's been tapping the Williams' [sic] and picks up a call between Bell Helicopter and Janet's phone, an unidentified voice saying "We both know who's responsible." Who called? Why's the Bureau been tapping them?

In his testimony to the WC, Michael Paine denied ever making that remark. In his attempt to reclaim America, VB attributes the statement "We both know who's responsible" to an informant (who he says was mistaken or made it up) not to an electronically recorded phone call.

VB essentially repeats what is said on the McAdams' site debunking "JFK":

Moreover, there never was any "tap" on the Paines's phone, from the FBI or anyone else. The facts are these: a Dallas police officer, Paul Barger, contacted the FBI and reported that an informant had overheard a November 23, 1963, telephone call between two particular phone numbers, BL 3-1628 in Irving, Texas (Ruth Paine's home phone number) and CR 5-5211 in Arlington, Texas (Bell Helicopter, Michael Paine's workplace), in which a male voice was heard saying "that he felt sure Lee Harvey Oswald had killed the President, but did not feel Oswald was responsible, and further stated, 'We both know who is responsible.'"(7) When contacted again, Barger was unable to recall who his source had been, blaming the volume of leads received that weekend.(8) (The source seems to have never been identified.)

Does anyone know who is right, Oliver or Vincent? (Hey, can you imagine the two of them running into each other at a LA cocktail party?) Any documentation would be appreciated far beyond words adequate to describe the appreciation!

[William Kelly]

From "JFK" wherein the Paines are called the Williams:

I wonder about the Williams' [sic]. Just where did the first description of Oswald come from at 12:44? No one knows. They claimed it was Brennan's, but his description came after 1 PM. Who called? Somehow the FBI's been tapping the Williams' [sic] and picks up a call between Bell Helicopter and Janet's phone, an unidentified voice saying "We both know who's responsible." Who called? Why's the Bureau been tapping them?

In his testimony to the WC, Michael Paine denied ever making that remark. In his attempt to reclaim America, VB attributes the statement "We both know who's responsible" to an informant (who he says was mistaken or made it up) not to an electronically recorded phone call.

VB essentially repeats what is said on the McAdams' site debunking "JFK":

Moreover, there never was any "tap" on the Paines's phone, from the FBI or anyone else. The facts are these: a Dallas police officer, Paul Barger, contacted the FBI and reported that an informant had overheard a November 23, 1963, telephone call between two particular phone numbers, BL 3-1628 in Irving, Texas (Ruth Paine's home phone number) and CR 5-5211 in Arlington, Texas (Bell Helicopter, Michael Paine's workplace), in which a male voice was heard saying "that he felt sure Lee Harvey Oswald had killed the President, but did not feel Oswald was responsible, and further stated, 'We both know who is responsible.'"(7) When contacted again, Barger was unable to recall who his source had been, blaming the volume of leads received that weekend.(8) (The source seems to have never been identified.)

Does anyone know who is right, Oliver or Vincent? (Hey, can you imagine the two of them running into each other at a LA cocktail party?) Any documentation would be appreciated far beyond words adequate to describe the appreciation!

The first report that 'Oswald' had been in the USSR and a 'communist' came to the press from a call from Bell Helicopter.

There is a whole chapter on this issue in "Coincidence or Conspiracy," edited by Bud Festerwald and Michael Ewing, which if I recall correctly, originally attributed the quote "we know who did it" to a window washer in the Bell Hell janitoral department, but additional release of records indicated it was from a phone tap.

They knew Michael Paine was at one end of the line but not sure who was at the other end - narrowing it down to either Ruth Paine or Michael Paine's father, Lyman Paine, the founder of the Trotskite party of USA. Some have even speculated it was a conversation between Michael Paine and his step-father Arthur Young, the inventor of the Bell Hellicopter 47-A and patron of Michael's job in the design department of Bell Hell.

If it was a phone tap, as speculated, it would have been a tap initiated by the Security Department of Bell Hell, directed by former Nazi General Dornberger, who came into the USA with his cohort, Weiner Von Braun and Project Paperclip.

If someone has a handy copy of "Coincidence or Conspiracy" they can fill us in on exacatly what the documents say.

BK

[Tim Gratz]

Thanks, Bill, interesting information.

We certainly ought to try to run this one down since it is important.

If the report of the Paine remark is true, I would think most would agree the Paines were probably unwitting facilitators (does not sound like a statement that would be made by someone who was truly a knowing part of the plot).

But if true, the statement demonstrates the Paines know more than they have told--and lied in denying the remark. And they are both still alive and could be questioned.

[Nick Bartetzko]

From "JFK" wherein the Paines are called the Williams:

I wonder about the Williams' [sic]. Just where did the first description of Oswald come from at 12:44? No one knows. They claimed it was Brennan's, but his description came after 1 PM. Who called? Somehow the FBI's been tapping the Williams' [sic] and picks up a call between Bell Helicopter and Janet's phone, an unidentified voice saying "We both know who's responsible." Who called? Why's the Bureau been tapping them?

In his testimony to the WC, Michael Paine denied ever making that remark. In his attempt to reclaim America, VB attributes the statement "We both know who's responsible" to an informant (who he says was mistaken or made it up) not to an electronically recorded phone call.

VB essentially repeats what is said on the McAdams' site debunking "JFK":

Moreover, there never was any "tap" on the Paines's phone, from the FBI or anyone else. The facts are these: a Dallas police officer, Paul Barger, contacted the FBI and reported that an informant had overheard a November 23, 1963, telephone call between two particular phone numbers, BL 3-1628 in Irving, Texas (Ruth Paine's home phone number) and CR 5-5211 in Arlington, Texas (Bell Helicopter, Michael Paine's workplace), in which a male voice was heard saying "that he felt sure Lee Harvey Oswald had killed the President, but did not feel Oswald was responsible, and further stated, 'We both know who is responsible.'"(7) When contacted again, Barger was unable to recall who his source had been, blaming the volume of leads received that weekend.(8) (The source seems to have never been identified.)

Does anyone know who is right, Oliver or Vincent? (Hey, can you imagine the two of them running into each other at a LA cocktail party?) Any documentation would be appreciated far beyond words adequate to describe the appreciation!

The first report that 'Oswald' had been in the USSR and a 'communist' came to the press from a call from Bell Helicopter.

There is a whole chapter on this issue in "Coincidence or Conspiracy," edited by Bud Festerwald and Michael Ewing, which if I recall correctly, originally attributed the quote "we know who did it" to a window washer in the Bell Hell janitoral department, but additional release of records indicated it was from a phone tap.

They knew Michael Paine was at one end of the line but not sure who was at the other end - narrowing it down to either Ruth Paine or Michael Paine's father, Lyman Paine, the founder of the Trotskite party of USA. Some have even speculated it was a conversation between Michael Paine and his step-father Arthur Young, the inventor of the Bell Hellicopter 47-A and patron of Michael's job in the design department of Bell Hell.

If it was a phone tap, as speculated, it would have been a tap initiated by the Security Department of Bell Hell, directed by former Nazi General Dornberger, who came into the USA with his cohort, Weiner Von Braun and Project Paperclip.

If someone has a handy copy of "Coincidence or Conspiracy" they can fill us in on exacatly what the documents say.

BK

I do have that book and did a quick search on the Paines. The pertinent information is on pages 215-216. To paraphrase, On 2-11-76, based largely on the effort of WC scholar Kevin Walsh, the National Archives declassified a page of WC Document # 206. This page appears to be based on an FBI wiretap log. Page 66 of that document refers to a confidential informant who overheard a phone call placed from Michael Paine's office and his home. The book concludes it was likely between Michael Paine and his wife.

The informant ....."advised that the male voice was heard to comment that he felt sure that Lee Harvey Oswald had killed the President but did not feel Oswald was responsible and further stated, We both know who is responsible."

Further, in the book, it was stated that in the spring of 1976 it was reported that it was a Dallas telephone repair man who was the informant.

That's all I could find right now.

Nick

[Larry Hancock]

I'll just add in that it was not unusual to find the FBI using the term "confidential informant" when they were describing

information obtained via illegal wire taps, mail intercepts or black bag jobs. That protected both the Bureau and

any other cooperative individual such as a postal worker or telephone company employee as well.

-- Larry