Sands Casino Imploded

[Ron Ecker]

Even if you could produce this picture, it would not change my mind and my guess is you can't. It might just be a figment of your fertile imagination.

You're really a nice guy, aren't you. I don't have the picture, and I wouldn't post it for you anyway.

Do you think Sinatra was a mobster, too?

I don't know if he was or not. All I know, from what I've read, is that he was a very talented jerk.

[John Bevilaqua]

Even if you could produce this picture, it would not change my mind and my guess is you can't. It might just be a figment of your fertile imagination.

You're really a nice guy, aren't you. I don't have the picture, and I wouldn't post it for you anyway.

Do you think Sinatra was a mobster, too?

I don't know if he was or not. All I know, from what I've read, is that he was a very talented jerk.

And after all the nice things he said about YOU! Gentleman, scholar, bon vivante! You think he cares?

[Ron Ecker]

And after all the nice things he said about YOU! Gentleman, scholar, bon vivante! You think he cares?

He was right about me. And no, I don't think he cares what I think about him.

[William Kelly]

I would think that Sinatra would have had no interest in pursuing JFK's killers. I thought that Sinatra and JFK were on the outs, over Sinatra being slighted in some way or other. And I remember someone posting a photo on this forum of Sinatra, sometime after the assassination, sitting back in his den with his feet propped up on top of a book. JFK's face was on the book cover, under Sinatra's heels.

Ron,

Sinatra and JFK did indeed have a falling out by 1962, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Sinatra and Rat Pack and Skinny D'Amato and Sam Giancana helped get JFK elected via West Virginia primary and Illinois during the election, and that the 1964 Democratic Convention, where JFK would have been renominated if he hadn't been killed, as given to Atlantic City, a place that proved totally inadequate and an embarrasement to LBJ, the party and city.

If JFK and the Rat Pack had stayed pals, and JFK was renominated in Atlantic City, you can be ashored that there would have been a great party, hosted by Skinny and Frank, in their town.

BK

[Charles Drago]

Bill,

Dig Sinatra's heel.

It's squarely on the face of JFK as it appears in a Time-Life memorial publication immediately post-assassination.

I've offered this shot before, but it surely seems relevant on this thread.

Francis did nothing by accident.

Charles

[John Bevilaqua]

Bill,

Dig Sinatra's heel.

It's squarely on the face of JFK as it appears in a Time-Life memorial publication immediately post-assassination.

I've offered this shot before, but it surely seems relevant on this thread.

Francis did nothing by accident.

Charles

Oh please, he is protecting the wood from his heel marks. And anyone would do that on purpose.

And how could anyone even discern the face on that magazine? Methinks you doth protest too much

and read between the lines too much here. This is supposed to be an intentional anti-JFK slur

which Sinatra KNEW was going to be seen as such by everyone who saw the photo? What a stretch.

Have you ever seen the Frankheimer and Sinatra interview about Manchurian Candidate and JFK? Both

Frankheimer and Sinatra expressed what I felt were sincere regret regarding the death of JFK. Did

you ever see Sinatra's son divulge his father's opinions on JFK? Both of these live interviews were

compelling and convincing to me at least regarding their true attitudes towards JFK. Both Joey Bishop

and Dean Martin were part of the Sinatra Rat Pack with Peter Lawford who married into the Kennedy clan right?

And that is evidence that Sinatra, Bishop and Martin had negative attitudes about JFK. Really?

How can anyone conclude from all these pieces that Sinatra put his heel on JFK's face on purpose to

make a point about his dislike for JFK? Is that in fact what you are implying? Weak. Very weak.

Again this is just my humble opinion for what it's worth.

Edited October 27, 2007 by John Bevilaqua

[John Bevilaqua]

I would think that Sinatra would have had no interest in pursuing JFK's killers. I thought that Sinatra and JFK were on the outs, over Sinatra being slighted in some way or other. And I remember someone posting a photo on this forum of Sinatra, sometime after the assassination, sitting back in his den with his feet propped up on top of a book. JFK's face was on the book cover, under Sinatra's heels.

Ron,

Sinatra and JFK did indeed have a falling out by 1962, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Sinatra and Rat Pack and Skinny D'Amato and Sam Giancana helped get JFK elected via West Virginia primary and Illinois during the election, and that the 1964 Democratic Convention, where JFK would have been renominated if he hadn't been killed, as given to Atlantic City, a place that proved totally inadequate and an embarrasement to LBJ, the party and city.

If JFK and the Rat Pack had stayed pals, and JFK was renominated in Atlantic City, you can be ashored that there would have been a great party, hosted by Skinny and Frank, in their town.

BK

I trust your interpretaion on this Bill, much more than I would some other's. Personal insights, and observations

and 'clean hands' open minded approaches are much better precursors of accuracy than an injection of some form of predetermined personal biases and predilections. Not that this issue is of major proportions. More like Matthau's interpretation of "Peppah". Who was he Senator Long or Russell or someone else?

[Charles Drago]

Oh John,

I have a very clear copy of the photo as published in Architectural Digest.

The cover of the book is unmistakeable.

I own a copy of the book.

The photo is a full-face shot of JFK within an oval framing graphic.

Sinatra's heel is centered on JFK's face.

No guesswork. No theory. No doubt.

Absolute fact.

As for "protecting the wood"???

Citation, please. Precedent, if you don't mind.

"Use a coaster, pally, or I'll ring-a-ding-ding your neck!" doesn't cut it.

Charles

[Kathleen Collins]

Also, did it ever become public why Sinatra's son was kidnapped? Ransom, blackmail or otherwise?

Actually, at the time, I did not think it was a real kidnap, but something to get the assassination off the front pages. (At 14 I was already very critical when it came to this case).

Dawn

I met Frank Sinatra Jr in 1971. He was appearing on the Steel Pier in Atlantic City. We bought "Reserved Seats": $0.25. But he was great and not a nervous bone in his body. Later, when we were getting his autograph, a woman went up to him and mentioned his father. Jr was surprised about this and pulled away as fast as he could from the crowd. He was with a plain blonde woman. Anyway, I got his line: "You're very pretty, aren't you?" His autograph read "Mr. Sinatra."

The kidnapping was for real. I think 2 men did jail time. But your mention of it diverting interest from the Assassination makes me wonder. It's possible Karyn Kupcinet was murdered to shock Chicago -- where everyone knew her and her family -- and get people to talk about that rather than the Mobsters in Chicago. If so, I bet it was on the order of Paul "Red" Dorfman. Irv Kupcinet was looking for the Chicago angle of the Assassination because of Ruby. Ruby shooting Oswald was shedding light on the Mafia in Chicago. Because of Ruby's actions, people began to believe the mob were responsible for Kennedy's death. This was unwanted evidently. They wanted a diversion.

Thanks for your insight, Dawn.

Kathy

[John Bevilaqua]

Also, did it ever become public why Sinatra's son was kidnapped? Ransom, blackmail or otherwise?

Actually, at the time, I did not think it was a real kidnap, but something to get the assassination off the front pages. (At 14 I was already very critical when it came to this case).

Dawn

I met Frank Sinatra Jr in 1971. He was appearing on the Steel Pier in Atlantic City. We bought "Reserved Seats": $0.25. But he was great and not a nervous bone in his body. Later, when we were getting his autograph, a woman went up to him and mentioned his father. Jr was surprised about this and pulled away as fast as he could from the crowd. He was with a plain blonde woman. Anyway, I got his line: "You're very pretty, aren't you?" His autograph read "Mr. Sinatra."

The kidnapping was for real. I think 2 men did jail time. But your mention of it diverting interest from the Assassination makes me wonder. It's possible Karyn Kupcinet was murdered to shock Chicago -- where everyone knew her and her family -- and get people to talk about that rather than the Mobsters in Chicago. If so, I bet it was on the order of Paul "Red" Dorfman. Irv Kupcinet was looking for the Chicago angle of the Assassination because of Ruby. Ruby shooting Oswald was shedding light on the Mafia in Chicago. Because of Ruby's actions, people began to believe the mob were responsible for Kennedy's death. This was unwanted evidently. They wanted a diversion.

Thanks for your insight, Dawn.

Kathy

Sounds like it was a ransom demand... and the perps were tried and convicted thereof. Frankly, the thesis

that Ruby's background as a known mobster somehow allegedly played into the mix does not hold water

unless anyone can show that this was a generally open theory on Dec 8 1963 (I do not recall seeing anything

on this issue in the historical printed record until maybe the Spring of 1964 and American Opinion Mag) and

of course, it sort of begs the question regarding Mob involvement. "Well SINCE mobsters were involved and

SINCE Ruby was a well known mobster as of Dec 8, 1963 THEREFORE it WAS or COULD have been a deliberate plan to divert the attention from the heat being put on the Mob."

They were NOT heavily involved IMHO and they had not yet been "implicated" by anyone.

Ruby was NOT even a well known mobster on that date. He was a small time hood.

There was NO HEAT on the Mob that I can discover on that date until the Far Right first

attacked his Jewish heritage then only later his Mob affiliations, which were pretty weak.

It WAS a kidnap for financial benefit. It was not a warning shot fired over the bow to his Father.

Therefore your hypothesis seems to self destruct IMHO.

In a bizarre incident, Sinatra was kidnapped in December 8, 1963 at Harrah's Lake Tahoe and released two days later after his father paid out the US$240,000 ransom demanded by the kidnappers, who were later captured, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced to long prison terms. Gladys Root represented one of the kidnappers. In order to communicate with the kidnappers via pay telephone, as per their demands, his father carried a roll of dimes with him throughout this ordeal, which became a life-long habit. Frank Sinatra, Jr. did not seem to be overly scarred by this event. The kidnapping has been later explained in Act Three of the "Plan B" episode from the radio narrative show, This American Life by Barry Keenan, one of the kidnappers. The kidnapping is portrayed in the 2003 made-for-TV movie Stealing Sinatra, which is based on Barry Keenan's story.

At the time of trial, Keenan attempted to make it appear that Sinatra, Jr. himself was a willing conspirator in his own kidnapping. This allegation didn't stand up in court, but still proved to be fodder for late-night TV jokes and negative publicity for Frank, Jr.'s career.

[Guest David Guyatt]

Charles, I can't get your image to download. I get the top of the picture only. I've tried two different browsers in case it was one of those playing up. Does it need reposting? Or I am cocking something up perhaps?

David

[Charles Drago]

Charles, I can't get your image to download. I get the top of the picture only. I've tried two different browsers in case it was one of those playing up. Does it need reposting? Or I am cocking something up perhaps?

David

David,

I'll try it here one more time. If no luck, we'll go the PM or private e-mail route.

Charles

[John Bevilaqua]

Oh John,

I have a very clear copy of the photo as published in Architectural Digest.

The cover of the book is unmistakeable.

I own a copy of the book.

The photo is a full-face shot of JFK within an oval framing graphic.

Sinatra's heel is centered on JFK's face.

No guesswork. No theory. No doubt.

Absolute fact.

As for "protecting the wood"???

Citation, please. Precedent, if you don't mind.

"Use a coaster, pally, or I'll ring-a-ding-ding your neck!" doesn't cut it.

Charles

You sound like you are serious. But I gots "celebrity statics" according to Dennis Pointing.

Do you gots "celebrity statics"? Is you impotent or is you ain't impotent?

But Sinatra really liked Peter Lawford, his wife and the entire Kennedy clan, right? What point

are you trying to make here? Sinatra did not dislike JFK. Ask his son or his daughter.

"These boot were made for walkin' and that's just what they'll do. One of these days these

boots will... walk all over you. Ready boots? Start walkin'" Doomp... da diddy biddy boomp

Be still my beating heart.

[Dawn Meredith]

Also, did it ever become public why Sinatra's son was kidnapped? Ransom, blackmail or otherwise?

Actually, at the time, I did not think it was a real kidnap, but something to get the assassination off the front pages. (At 14 I was already very critical when it came to this case).

Dawn

I met Frank Sinatra Jr in 1971. He was appearing on the Steel Pier in Atlantic City. We bought "Reserved Seats": $0.25. But he was great and not a nervous bone in his body. Later, when we were getting his autograph, a woman went up to him and mentioned his father. Jr was surprised about this and pulled away as fast as he could from the crowd. He was with a plain blonde woman. Anyway, I got his line: "You're very pretty, aren't you?" His autograph read "Mr. Sinatra."

The kidnapping was for real. I think 2 men did jail time. But your mention of it diverting interest from the Assassination makes me wonder. It's possible Karyn Kupcinet was murdered to shock Chicago -- where everyone knew her and her family -- and get people to talk about that rather than the Mobsters in Chicago. If so, I bet it was on the order of Paul "Red" Dorfman. Irv Kupcinet was looking for the Chicago angle of the Assassination because of Ruby. Ruby shooting Oswald was shedding light on the Mafia in Chicago. Because of Ruby's actions, people began to believe the mob were responsible for Kennedy's death. This was unwanted evidently. They wanted a diversion.

Thanks for your insight, Dawn.

Kathy

Sounds like it was a ransom demand... and the perps were tried and convicted thereof. Frankly, the thesis

that Ruby's background as a known mobster somehow allegedly played into the mix does not hold water

unless anyone can show that this was a generally open theory on Dec 8 1963 (I do not recall seeing anything

on this issue in the historical printed record until maybe the Spring of 1964 and American Opinion Mag) and

of course, it sort of begs the question regarding Mob involvement. "Well SINCE mobsters were involved and

SINCE Ruby was a well known mobster as of Dec 8, 1963 THEREFORE it WAS or COULD have been a deliberate plan to divert the attention from the heat being put on the Mob."

They were NOT heavily involved IMHO and they had not yet been "implicated" by anyone.

Ruby was NOT even a well known mobster on that date. He was a small time hood.

There was NO HEAT on the Mob that I can discover on that date until the Far Right first

attacked his Jewish heritage then only later his Mob affiliations, which were pretty weak.

It WAS a kidnap for financial benefit. It was not a warning shot fired over the bow to his Father.

Therefore your hypothesis seems to self destruct IMHO.

In a bizarre incident, Sinatra was kidnapped in December 8, 1963 at Harrah's Lake Tahoe and released two days later after his father paid out the US$240,000 ransom demanded by the kidnappers, who were later captured, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced to long prison terms. Gladys Root represented one of the kidnappers. In order to communicate with the kidnappers via pay telephone, as per their demands, his father carried a roll of dimes with him throughout this ordeal, which became a life-long habit. Frank Sinatra, Jr. did not seem to be overly scarred by this event. The kidnapping has been later explained in Act Three of the "Plan B" episode from the radio narrative show, This American Life by Barry Keenan, one of the kidnappers. The kidnapping is portrayed in the 2003 made-for-TV movie Stealing Sinatra, which is based on Barry Keenan's story.

At the time of trial, Keenan attempted to make it appear that Sinatra, Jr. himself was a willing conspirator in his own kidnapping. This allegation didn't stand up in court, but still proved to be fodder for late-night TV jokes and negative publicity for Frank, Jr.'s career.

Interesting that the 12/8 date keeps popping up. (And I don't mean to imply that I continue to believe that the kidnap was a diversion, that was just my view at the time, at age 14. John cites wiki that Sinatra was released two days later. My memory from '63 is that this "incident" -whatever it was- went on for some time. (which is what made me so suspious of it).

12/8/72: The Dorothy Hunt/ Michelle Clark et al plane crash, (murder in my opinion).

12/8/80- John Lennon's murder, although not a lot of investigation has been done here Fenton Bresler's book "Who killed John Lennon? " makes some very intersting MC kinds of arguments. I would like to see this matter more fully explored.

Dawn

[Guest David Guyatt]

John, I say this seriously and not with any thought of malice -- but you might consider visiting your medical practioner for a check-up. Rather urgently, I think.

I'm quite serious. I'm past point scoring. I'm worried for you.

David