If The Hat Don't Fit

[Bill Miller]

You said, "Bowers said that there were two men standing behind the fence. . ."

Well, that was incorrect. He never said any such thing. I point it out, and I'm playing a game of "gotcha."

FWIW, I personally think Bowers said they were behind the fence by his description. Take any map and draw a line from the tower to the mouth of the underpass and you cross over the fence. Seeing how Lee said they were on the high ground, then that covers the ground between the tower and the fence in my view.

Bill

[Bill Miller]

Miles, can you actually name a single stenographer for the Dallas or Washington depositions, much less delineate his or her qualifications?

You guys better listen to Miles ... after all he was the one who broke the Bowers code language. 'South' meant 'north' - 'high ground' meant 'incline' - 'plaid' means 'red plaid' .. I mean the guy is a genius!

Edited November 14, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

FWIW, I personally think Bowers said they were behind the fence by his description. Take any map and draw a line from the tower to the mouth of the underpass and you cross over the fence. Seeing how Lee said they were on the high ground, then that covers the ground between the tower and the fence in my view.

Bill

_________________________________________

Bill,

Your interpretation of what Bowers said sounds reasonable to me.

Keep up the good work. (Don't let Miles get the better of you. His use of insulting language is a reflection of him, not you.)

--Thomas

________________________________________

Edited November 16, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[Ed O'Hagan]

Once in a while we might consider cultivating a few redeeming faults.

Even the odd little smile instead of a frown would be something of an improvement in reading through some of the 'cold pricklies' that are bandied glibly to-and -fro in many of the threads. How about an encouraging 'warm fuzzy' once in a while?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFlDUK7YG6A

Hopefully the above hatmen will spell it out loud and clear for all to hear.

Consider it INTER -MISSION TIME and relax for a couple of minutes. The MISSION will still be there when we return to it

Ed O'Hagan

[Miles Scull]

Once in a while we might consider cultivating a few redeeming faults.

Even the odd little smile instead of a frown would be something of an improvement in reading through some of the 'cold pricklies' that are bandied glibly to-and -fro in many of the threads. How about an encouraging 'warm fuzzy' once in a while?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFlDUK7YG6A

Hopefully the above hatmen will spell it out loud and clear for all to hear.

Consider it INTER -MISSION TIME and relax for a couple of minutes. The MISSION will still be there when we return to it

Ed O'Hagan

Ed's got the ticket.

Miles, can you actually name a single stenographer for the Dallas or Washington depositions, much less delineate his or her qualifications?

Shemp?

[Bill Miller]

Ed's got the ticket.

Ed and you both have the ticket and we have your number! Ed thinks the knoll is lined with cops holding cameras so to document the assassination. Ed once took a shade spot along the fence and enlarged it to the size of Texas - blurred the heck out of it - and called it a cop taking pictures. Yes ... you and Ed both have the ticket alright.

Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

I'm opening a new ticket if that's ok, I never liked the 3 stooges

Anyway, back to the shooter.

Bill places his shooter at 12ft, based on photographic and acoustic evidence.

I place my shooter at 33ft based on photographic evidence, the distance of my shooter being at approximately 33ft confirmed by Gary Mack. ( Gary has never expressed an opinion on the validity of my shooter )

Sam Holland places the shooter at between 20 and 30ft from the corner of the fence, as clearly demonstrated in this video

Sam Holland Clearly Stating The Shooter Was Between 20 and 30 Feet From The Corner Of The Fence

Taking things to extremes from Bill's, Sam's and my own conclusion, let's do the maths.

1./Using Sam's criteria of 20 to 30ft, that leaves my distance outside of the 30ft range

33ft minus 30ft equals a margin of error of 3ft

2./Using Sam's criteria of 20 to 30ft, that leaves Bill's distance outside of the 20ft range

20ft minus 12ft equals a margin of error of 8ft

Conclusion. My 33ft shooter is closer to Sam's estimated distance from the corner of the fence than Bill's estimate.

It proves absolutely nothing, but it's an interesting FACT!!!

Duncan

Duncan Man could have shot over the fence. No evidence to suggest otherwise.

Shorty must have shot INTO the fence, on the evidence!

Looks like someone is now behind the 8 (ft) Ball!

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Conclusion. Using Sam Holland's unquestionable recorded criteria, My 33ft shooter is closer to Sam's estimated distance from the corner of the fence than Bill's estimate.

It proves absolutely nothing, but it's an interesting FACT!!!

Duncan

Duncan: Have you tested this theory with stand-ins in Dealey Plaza? I ask this because in the two-dimensional Moorman photo it does look as though your gunman's line of sight would have been blocked by the man standing on Hudson's left (on the right as we view the photo)

[Bill Miller]

Bill places his shooter at 12ft, based on photographic and acoustic evidence.

I place my shooter at 33ft based on photographic evidence, the distance of my shooter being at approximately 33ft confirmed by Gary Mack. ( Gary has never expressed an opinion on the validity of my shooter )

I don't think Gary has posted his opinion of your claim because it is not easy to do and stay within the forum rules. He has however said that the 'washout' theory you have is nonsense, thus it is the Dallas sky seen between the fence and the tree foliage. Contacting Gary was one of the first things I had done when you first came up with that claim. I did so because Gary had seen the original and best Moorman prints which you didn't have access to. So if I may be so brazen to do so, I think it is fair to say that if Gary sees the Dallas sky between the tree foliage and the fence - this means that he either believes that your shooter actually was a floating torso able to shoot a gun or he believes that you are wrong. I'm can say from my conversations with Gary on this matter is that his opinion is the latter.

Sam Holland places the shooter at between 20 and 30ft from the corner of the fence, as clearly demonstrated in this video

Sam Holland Clearly Stating The Shooter Was Between 20 and 30 Feet From The Corner Of The Fence

Taking things to extremes from Bill's, Sam's and my own conclusion, let's do the maths.

1./Using Sam's criteria of 20 to 30ft, that leaves my distance outside of the 30ft range

33ft minus 30ft equals a margin of error of 3ft

2./Using Sam's criteria of 20 to 30ft, that leaves Bill's distance outside of the 20ft range

20ft minus 12ft equals a margin of error of 8ft

I believe the HSCA gave a 13 to 18 feet span from the corner. (18' because I think something was said about a 5' degree of error) If Sam said 20 feet as his estimate ... it seems too close to argue about to me.

Conclusion. Using Sam Holland's unquestionable recorded criteria, My 33ft shooter is closer to Sam's estimated distance from the corner of the fence than Bill's estimate.

It proves absolutely nothing, but it's an interesting FACT!!!

It's a good thing they don't execute people for citing something as fact that is not fact at all. On a lighter note - the gif you made would make a nice Christmas decoration with the flashing lights and all.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Alan Healy]

"Six Seconds in Dallas"(p127-29)

When we took Holland to the assassination site & asked him to stand in the position where

he found the curious footprints & saw the smoke, his head appeared in the exact position defined

by this shape.

[photo shows Holland from bottom of the neck up]

Thompson never saw a "hat", he saw a "shooter".

That's why he quoted Holland when(after Josiah showed him a particularly clear print) he told him,

Well, now you have something there.......I didn't see this man before. Well do you know I think that your looking right down the barrel of that gun right now"

Thompson was not talking about seeing a hat.

[Bill Miller]

What you "think" Gary thinks is not important, no offence intended, but it's not against forum rules to post that my claim is crap

Oh but I do know what Gary thinks of your claim ... I can only guess as to why it cannot be posted in a way that would conform to the forum rules.

He has however said that the 'washout' theory you have is nonsense, thus it is the Dallas sky seen between the fence and the tree foliage.

After careful consideration, I've changed the term to " Partial Washout " a combination of shadows, degeneration, and possibly even smoke.

FWIW, your careful consideration is being given to a poor faded print which is meaningless when the original and/or good copies showed otherwise.

Sam Holland places the shooter at between 20 and 30ft from the corner of the fence, as clearly demonstrated in this video

Sam my have guessed the distance as he stood atop of the underpass, but go to the same interview part where the camera looks north from the south side of the street and pay close attention as to where Holland and Lane are standing for it is not 30 feet from the corner of the fence. Maybe that's why Lane had Sam take him to the spot rather than to just rely on an estimated distance - you think?

[Bill Miller]

Thompson was not talking about seeing a hat.

I cannot recall exactly, but Josiah mentions something about the Hat Man location and he sat out to see if what was seen in Moorman's photo was something affixed to the RR yard. Josiah could not find anything in the RR yard to account for the image seen over the fence in Moorman's photo.

[Alan Healy]

Thompson was not talking about seeing a hat.

I cannot recall exactly, but Josiah mentions something about the Hat Man location and he sat out to see if what was seen in Moorman's photo was something affixed to the RR yard. Josiah could not find anything in the RR yard to account for the image seen over the fence in Moorman's photo.

To be perfectly accurate, Thompson only referred to it as "a rounded shape" but he made it clear he thought it was a shooter(without drawing in anything or going into too much detail).

If he had seen that fedora shape I'm sure he would of noticed it & said as much in his book.

He doesn't.

What I drew in is my interpretation only & what Holland saw & meant by way of a "looking right down the barrel" is anyone's guess.

FWIW Thompson put it at 14' from the corner.

I doubt what I drew is accurate but I think it's a good thing to take that hat out of the equation, at least for a while anyway, you just may see something else.

Anyway, I stand by what I said earlier & you will see it too Bill when you check the book again, the details in the SSID M5 are extreemly degraded, I wouldn't trust a hat shape at the fence when any hat Hudson could of worn would not of been seen, even if it was black. It would of been washed away with the "enhancement" just like half of the heads have been here;

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff188/B...Hatmansmall.png

I'll try to get some better scans up next week.

SSID(P127)

... a round shape 14' down from the corner...

& that's where Holland stood when Thompson asked him to go where he thought the smoke was coming from.

It matches where he stood with Lane very well.

[Alan Healy]

The footprints behind the fence & particularly the dirty car bumber, would have pin-pointed the position for Holland.

Is that exactly where the smoke he saw came from?

Who knows?

It's just the best clue we have & I think how Holland's positioning lines up with the dark shapes in M5 is significant.

It's just not a hat, more likely a shoulder & maybe even standing on the bumber as the picture was took.

If the only purpose of this thread is to dismiss "Hatman"(which is the impression I'm getting) then please ignore this post.

[Miles Scull]

If the only purpose of this thread is to dismiss "Hatman"(which is the impression I'm getting) then please ignore this post.

I started the thread to actually help confirm the existance of Hatman, so who do you think is out to get hatman? it certainly isn't me. Even Bill said he wishes I was correct and can see that what I am doing is the exact opposite of your dismiss the hatman theory. I can only assume you are talking about Miles who also I believe has never said that hatman is not real, he disputes the size and distance from the fence of hatman. Correct me if I am wrong Miles

Duncan

Shorty doesn't have time to manipulate his Remington XP-100 for the shot that occurred & of course he does not place the barrel between the paling points.