If The Hat Don't Fit

[Bill Miller]

Use the shadows on the fence as a guide. Shadows don't move.

Duncan

Yes, shadows on a fence do not move, but the background behind them does when you shift from one location to another to view them.

[Alan Healy]

It is now Alan, but it wasn't when I made my reply to your original arrowed area.

Yes, it was, it's the same thing Duncan, light through branches & you are pointing to two different items in Bonds 4 & 8.

I can't agree, the shadows on the fence don't lie, and objects, hats branches or whatever remain relative to the shadows. It's a scientific fact.

Duncan

Do you think this is a better close up of the area than what Chris got from his scan of B4?

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff188/B.../Bond4close.png

Also, are saying that you see the same shape of a hat in B4 at point A or B Duncan?

This gif of yours is obviously pointing to A correct?

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/nit...comparison1.gif

Fixed the links.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Alan Healy

[Alan Healy]

X

Edited November 13, 2007 by Alan Healy

[Alan Healy]

X

Edited November 13, 2007 by Alan Healy

[Duke Lane]

Duncan, ... didn't Bowers say that one of the men after the shooting was still at the same location. And didn't Officer Joe Marshal Smith possibly meet one of them?

Bill

I think a closer reading of Bowers' testimony is certainly in order. Bowers said that there were two men standing behind the fence, but that they didn't appear to be together and were standing some 10-15' apart. Neither of them did he describe as wearing a suit, which is one attribute that one might expect of the Secret Service. If memory serves, Smith indicated that the man was reaching inside his jacket, and if so, it rules out either of these men.

That is not, however, to say that Smith didn't meet up with someone claiming to be USSS.

[Bill Miller]

To answer your question though,

if the hat shape is correct, then yes, obviously he's below the top of the fence

Alan, can you tell us just how far behind the fence the Hat Man is? And just so we are on the same page ... you do understand that when you are looking uphill at someone standing behind a structure ... For instance a 6' tall man seen against a 5' high fence ... the closer they are to the structure - the higher they will appear above it. A six foot man standing right up against a fence will appear theoretically 1' taller than the fence. If that person takes one step back from the fence which makes him two feet back from the fence - then he will no longer appear 1' foot taller than the fence when being viewed uphill as Moorman was doing, but rather shorter just as the Hat Man would appear. If he ducks down - the same effect can be achieved.

A simple recreation: Take two salt shakers or any alike objects and stand one in front of the other and then lower your LOS to the salt shakers to that of Moorman's angle as she looked upward at the fence ... does that not make the further away salt shaker now "Shorty" as Miles calls him. Then look at the two salt shakers at eye level ... do they not look to be the same height. Pass this information on to Miles and tell him that he has just been forced to acknowledge the laws of perspective.

Now I ask again the 'perspective challenged' posters ... how far behind the fence was Hat Man?

Bill Miller

Edited November 10, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Duke Lane]

Thanks to Chris for sending me the excellent quality Life scan of Bond 4 to to support my claim for Hatman in Bond 8. My analysis shows that I am correct, and that Bill is wrong with his foliage nonsense. Hatman appears in both Bond 8 and Bond 4. Case closed. Hatman is NOT a shooter.

Duncan

Duncan,

I've not studied photographic evidence to the extent others have, so humor me with an answer to the question of how far apart in time that Bond 4 and 8, and Moorman 5 were taken.

I ask this to discern how long "hatman" would have had to remain stationary to be photographed in the same position in three photos. It is not that staying stationary is, per se, an issue, but with all the commotion going on, I might argue that any person in such a position would have moved away from where they were, whether out of curiosity or self-preservation ... with as much force as the argument that a sniper would or wouldn't remain in position for any given period of time.

If "hatman" is a human being standing behind a six-foot fence, how do we see so much of him? And where did he get off to when people started looking around behind the fence? If he ducked, say, into a car trunk (a reasonable avenue of escape for someone shooting from behind there), why did he wait until after there were so many people in close proximity to him, running up the knoll?

Depending upon the length of time involved, I might be more inclined to believe that "hatman" is indeed foliage ... which would have no cause whatever to hide itself or run away, and would not move. Just an inclination, mind you ....

[Bill Miller]

I think a closer reading of Bowers' testimony is certainly in order. Bowers said that there were two men standing behind the fence, but that they didn't appear to be together and were standing some 10-15' apart. Neither of them did he describe as wearing a suit, which is one attribute that one might expect of the Secret Service. If memory serves, Smith indicated that the man was reaching inside his jacket, and if so, it rules out either of these men.

That is not, however, to say that Smith didn't meet up with someone claiming to be USSS.

I thought Bowers mentioned that one man wore a plaid shirt or JACKET ... did I dream that or what???

Bill Miller

Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

[Robin Unger]

Bond 5 Large.

Click on the image to see full size:

[Bill Miller]

So would you also consider it a possibility that the Moorman Hatman is also foliage?...Just interested.

Duncan

If Hat Man in Moorman's photo is tree foliage, then it is growing from the ground/up. The solid shape of a hat is is separated from the overhanging trees. It is also advised the others read Josiah's study whereas he went to the plaza at a point in time after the assassination and compared the overhanging tree foliage with that seen in the Moorman photo. Josiah found that the shape was no longer there and it could not be accounted for by anything stationary to the structures in the RR yard.

It should also be noted that Hat Man's location in Moorman's photo is located between the same two trees where Holland said that he heard a shot and saw smoke coming through the trees.

[Duke Lane]

I think a closer reading of Bowers' testimony is certainly in order. Bowers said that there were two men standing behind the fence, but that they didn't appear to be together and were standing some 10-15' apart. Neither of them did he describe as wearing a suit, which is one attribute that one might expect of the Secret Service. If memory serves, Smith indicated that the man was reaching inside his jacket, and if so, it rules out either of these men.

That is not, however, to say that Smith didn't meet up with someone claiming to be USSS.

I thought Bowers mentioned that one man wore a plaid shirt or JACKET ... did I dream that or what???

Bill Miller

Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

I think you'd be dreaming if you seriously contend that the USSS would wear a plaid jacket while on duty. I know it was a leap of faith on my part that I would use the term "suit" above, and then expect someone to actually think "suit jacket," as in one that matches the trousers.

Wearing a sports jacket is not "wearing a suit," which is what I said Bowers did not say, and he didn't. The Secret Service wore and wears suits, not sports jackets, and damned sure not plaid ones.

To really pick at nits, Bowers did say "plaid shirt or plaid coat or plaid jacket," so to presume that to mean only a plaid jacket is to read only what one wants to read. To presume that the jacket is plaid and worn by someone claiming - apparently successfully - to be USSS is probably delusional, doubly so if you want to call a plaid jacket a plaid suit. No self-respecting agent would have been caught dead so dressed, especially in Dallas, 1963.

If he was trying to blend into the crowd by wearing mufti, where's the Stetson, another article of clothing that we probably would never expect USSS to wear?

[Bill Miller]

DL)I think a closer reading of Bowers' testimony is certainly in order. Bowers said that there were two men standing behind the fence, but that they didn't appear to be together and were standing some 10-15' apart. Neither of them did he describe as wearing a suit, which is one attribute that one might expect of the Secret Service. If memory serves, Smith indicated that the man was reaching inside his jacket, and if so, it rules out either of these men.

DL)That is not, however, to say that Smith didn't meet up with someone claiming to be USSS.

BM)I thought Bowers mentioned that one man wore a plaid shirt or JACKET ... did I dream that or what???

Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

I think you'd be dreaming if you seriously contend that the USSS would wear a plaid jacket while on duty. I know it was a leap of faith on my part that I would use the term "suit" above, and then expect someone to actually think "suit jacket," as in one that matches the trousers.

Wearing a sports jacket is not "wearing a suit," which is what I said Bowers did not say, and he didn't. The Secret Service wore and wears suits, not sports jackets, and damned sure not plaid ones.

To really pick at nits, Bowers did say "plaid shirt or plaid coat or plaid jacket," so to presume that to mean only a plaid jacket is to read only what one wants to read. To presume that the jacket is plaid and worn by someone claiming - apparently successfully - to be USSS is probably delusional, doubly so if you want to call a plaid jacket a plaid suit. No self-respecting agent would have been caught dead so dressed, especially in Dallas, 1963.

Duke, you come across as too intelligent to not have followed the responses better than this. Of course SS agents wore suits ... at least in all the photos I have seen of them in Dallas. That's not to say that I have not seen SS agents in casual wear with the President - because I have. I also have not heard of SS agents having dirty hands either, but who ever Officer Smith met showed what appears to have been in hindsight a fake SS Badge. Bowers just happened to describe seeing a man in the RR yard at a time prior to the shooting as wearing a plaid shirt or jacket. You mentioned the man Smith met as ruling out the two men Bowers saw because as you said, " Smith indicated that the man was reaching inside his jacket, and if so, it rules out either of these men" ... I merely pointed out that one of the men Bowers saw who I believe he said had remained in that general area after the shooting was maybe wearing a plaid jacket. I must sa too, that unless I missed it - I didn't see where Smith said the man actually reached into a jacket.

Now I find Smith's testimony before the Commission interesting because he not only referenced the RR yard parking lot as being being behind the grassy area back from the street. As I recall 'back from the street' was some language that was discussed earlier as to meaning the step area, but it seems to Joe Smith that this would be the RR yard.

Another interesting thing Smith said .. the man who showed him the obviously fake SS badge was in the RR yard towards the underpass and not at the east end of the fence or walkway. Bowers had said that one of the two men he saw was still in the general area after the shooting.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.

Mr. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?

Mr. SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.

I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man?

Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who it was?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't--because then we started checking the cars. In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars, and I started over here in this particular section.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

If he was trying to blend into the crowd by wearing mufti, where's the Stetson, another article of clothing that we probably would never expect USSS to wear?

I think that was the other man. Bowers lost sight of one of the two men. Lee wasn't descriptive enough to say that the man only wore a white shirt, nor could he say that the man hadn't put on a jacket and hat after Lee took his eye off of him to watch the caravan enter the plaza some 45 to 60 seconds before he looked back at the one man still in the same general area as before the shooting.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Bill Miller

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.

There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.

I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.

Smith seems to be jumping around in his testimony, and Liebeler did not question him properly to clarify the exact sequence of events, but it sounds to me as though Smith met the "Secret Service man" before he began his search and before he went back towards the railroad tracks. So the SS man would have been somewhere towards (behind) the pergola area when Smith saw him.

Question for those learned in the photo evidence: Do any of the pre-assassination photos show anyone wearing a suit in the pergola area who might be a candidate for Smith's "Secret Service" Man?

[Bill Miller]

As far as I know, there are no photographs of the pergola area which are pre-assassination. There is however this potential character at the pergola area alongside Zapruder and Sitzman, discovered by Bernice a few years ago.

Duncan

Sure there are photos of the pergola area - Betzner and Willis both took photos of the pergola pre-assassination, as well as Nix and Bronson both captured it on film during the shooting.

And let us call that "potential character" the 'degrade the image enough and you have 'tAbe's Siamese twin man'. It is amazing that what you see as someone's head is what I see as the back of Sitzman's scarf. It's also amazing how they tampered with Paschall's film so to just show Abe just hitting the ground and walking away from Sitzman while erasing 'Abe's Siemese twin man'.

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

My fault, I should have said there are no pre-assassination photographs which show anyone in the pergola area other than Zapruder and Sitzman.

Next point..Bill...Can you explain this. I've coloured in the figures very very roughly for ease of viewing.

The pre-assassination photos do not show Zapruder and Sitzman in the pergola, but rather on the pedestal ... I have no idea why you think that they do. The Betzner and Willis photos show the west-most shelter and colonnade to be empty.

Are you asking me the question about that silly 'third person outline' because you have viewed the Paschall film and can't figure it out or because you have not bothered to try? In any event, have someone stand-in as a test model and position them like Zapruder his and have them raise their left arm until they match what is seen in that photo when viewed from the same angle. Then go around and look at the front of them and you should have a clue as to how Zapruder was also positioned at that moment. Choices might range from holding his camera in his left hand - to having maybe pulled a gun on old Sitzy while saying 'Come with me, Doll and don't try anything funny!' - to taking Sitzman's arm to steady himself as a man with Vertigo might do as he hopped off the pedestal as seen in Pashcall's film.

Bill