The Farce Forum

[Guest David Guyatt]

I think it may be a forlorn hope that the American beast will stumble and fall as a result of economic collapse. It is a personal view only, but as the world economy is presently structured, if America goes down so does the rest of it.

The current US deficit is around $9 trillion – a sum that can never be repaid. Since it can never be repaid, it cannot truly be regarded as a debt, because the nature of a debt is that it is an obligation of repayment. This debt is, therefore, perceptual debt.

The bulk of US debt is held overseas – largely by central banks I believe, in the form of US Treasury obligations. China has a significant kitty of dollars and has – a number of times - in recent years, hinted that it might switch its reserves from dollars to the more stable euro.

But I believe this is only sword rattling on the part of China. Pre-announcing a switch to another currency results in an immediate (and temporary, if the mooted action does not then takes place) discounting in the value of the dollar. I imagine this was probably China’s goal in the first place. Perhaps they covertly sold dollar currency options short and planned to pick up a nice cash windfall when the dollar drops in the market as a consequence of their making public their intention?.

But the fact is that virtually every nation in the world is tied into the global economy and cannot wriggle free from it. I believe I’m right in saying that every nation in the world has a sizeable national debt (relative to their Gross Domestic Product that is).

There is no clear or obvious creditor sitting behind the staggering mountain of globally accumulated debt.

Go figure.

David

[Tim Gratz]

David, there was once a brilliant (?) economist who argued that the U.S. national debt did not matter because we owed it "to ourselves". Unfortunately, that may no longer be true.

[Tim Gratz]

Pat wrote:

Tim, an honest right-winger can make the case that our invasion of Iraq was a well-intentioned mistake. But I doubt you'd find one soul who's been to Iraq who would actually make the claim that the people of Iraq, 15% of whom are now homeless, are currently better off than they were with Saddam.

Pat, would you count a soul who LIVES in Iraq? If so, I might suggest Atta Najim as a candidate who believes he is now better off.

For instance, Atta Najim, an elementary teacher at Alnassiriyah located south of Iraq tsaid that his monthly salary was only two dollars during Saddam's era in addition to one piece of summer material and another winter material during the year. He noted that the former Iraqi ruling power had increased their salaries to 13 dollars a year before it was toppled but now a teacher's salaries is between 200 to US$ 300.

That may be anecdotal but are you aware that under Saddam Hussein, Iraqis’ standard of living had deteriorated rapidly. Iraq’s per capita income had dropped from $3,836 in 1980 (higher than Spain at the time) to $715 in 2002 (lower than Angola).

Iraq had virtually no cell phone subscribers in 2003. Today, there are more than 5 million cell phone subscribers, and an estimated 2,000 Internet cafés.

Cell phones and Internet cafes; who could ask for more? Well, how about free elections?

Few can doubt the surge in working. In fact, I think I can see light at the end of the tunnel! (Maybe it's tunnel vision?)

[Tim Gratz]

Pat, you might also want to check with John Major. (John S can probably set you up with a phone interview.)

Iraq is a better place today because of the coalition of the willing's removal of former dictator Saddam Hussein, Prime Minister John Howard says.

[Guest Gary Loughran]

I think it may be a forlorn hope that the American beast will stumble and fall as a result of economic collapse. It is a personal view only, but as the world economy is presently structured, if America goes down so does the rest of it.

The current US deficit is around $9 trillion – a sum that can never be repaid. Since it can never be repaid, it cannot truly be regarded as a debt, because the nature of a debt is that it is an obligation of repayment. This debt is, therefore, perceptual debt.

The bulk of US debt is held overseas – largely by central banks I believe, in the form of US Treasury obligations. China has a significant kitty of dollars and has – a number of times - in recent years, hinted that it might switch its reserves from dollars to the more stable euro.

But I believe this is only sword rattling on the part of China. Pre-announcing a switch to another currency results in an immediate (and temporary, if the mooted action does not then takes place) discounting in the value of the dollar. I imagine this was probably China’s goal in the first place. Perhaps they covertly sold dollar currency options short and planned to pick up a nice cash windfall when the dollar drops in the market as a consequence of their making public their intention?.

But the fact is that virtually every nation in the world is tied into the global economy and cannot wriggle free from it. I believe I’m right in saying that every nation in the world has a sizeable national debt (relative to their Gross Domestic Product that is).

There is no clear or obvious creditor sitting behind the staggering mountain of globally accumulated debt.

Go figure.

David

Cheers David,

Unsurprisingly I'm lost here. What does US debt actually mean or even matter? Gates wants $20+ billion more attack money from congress and unless granted he's pulling troops because he believes the US can't fight/sustain Oil work in both Iraq and Afghanistan. How does this work? He'll get his money, likley the Fed will print on treasury demand (I think???).

What is your prognosis on the whole sub-prime (derived from cattle days I'm led to believe) market and effect in UK? I see King says there will likely be rate decreases, ostensibly so The BOE doesn't get blamed on the recession.

I'm very interested in any commentary you may have.

Thanks

Gary

[Charles Drago]

And no doubt all of Reagan's failures explain why he was voted out of office in 1984!! LOL!!

He was re-elected because of the fear, ignorance, tribalism, and greed of his silent executioners.

But enough about you.

[Tim Gratz]

A totally nonsensical post.

And of course CD ignores the high rating given to RR by historians. But I can answer for him. I am sure he would state that to a man those historians who rated RR as one of our greatest presidents were "cognitively impaired".

Parenthetically, RR was re-elected in part because of his line about Walter Mondale in that famous debate. The American people loved RR's humour as they did the humour of JFK.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Charles Drago]

A totally nonsensical post.

And of course CD ignores the high rating given to RR by historians.

Your inability to make sense of anything more challenging than "I pledge allegiance ... " has been amply demonstrated within these cyberpages and elsewhere. No need to remind us.

And thanks for your latest contribution to the TGUA -- the Tim Gratz Unwarranted Assumption -- Archive. For not only do I NOT ignore the rating given to Reagan by your historians of choice, I accept their judgments as fortification of my own, contrary, sensible, demonstrably accurate appreciation of the 21st Death Valley mule.

Segretti Light, you never let me down.

Charles

[Tim Gratz]

When reason fails resort to ridicule.

A typical post by CD. And he says I incorrectly assumed he ignored their rating. Now that is a ridiculous statement on his part. Obviously I meant his POST ignored commenting on their rating. But what does he finally do when I challenge him? He says the uniformly high rating given RR by historians across the political spectrum FORTIFIES his position.

His posts are either ridiculous or risible, and usually both.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Charles Drago]

When reason fails resort to ridicule.

A typical post by CD. And he says I incorrectly assumed he ignored their rating. Now that is a ridiculous statement on his part. Obviously I meant his POST ignored commenting on their rating.

Dear Segretti Light,

You wrote, "And of course CD ignores the high rating given to RR by historians."

Have you no shame, sir?

(I thought you'd dig how I identify you with your role model.)

Careful, kid; you can pull a hamstring when you backpeddle so quickly.

A thought occurs. Perhaps Segretti Light -- and, for that matter, Purvis and Lamby -- are paid by the number of responses they generate. You know, something along the lines of "there's no such thing as bad press."

If so, I believe a "thank you" is in order.

Charles Drago

[Tim Gratz]

Charles, here is the contact information:

By postal mail:

Central Intelligence Agency

Office of Public Affairs

Washington, D.C. 20505

By phone:

(703) 482-0623

7 a.m. to 5 p.m., US Eastern time

By fax:

(703) 482-1739

7 a.m. to 5 p.m., US Eastern time

(please include a phone number where we may call you)

Please direct your inquiries to Operation Oriole.

But seriously your posts are so ridiculous one wonders whether it is you who are employed to bring discredit to the AR community.

[John Simkin]

According to Nationmaster.com, the US has 740 television sets per 1,000 people (third highest rate); Australia has 505 per 1,000.

Several members posted details of the plight of the poor in the United States. Tim replies by pointing out that the US has 740 television sets per 1,000 people.

Members make considered criticism of Reagan's presidency and Tim posts details of survey results that show that Reagan was a popular president. It clearly is impossible to have a logical debate with this man.

[Charles Drago]

According to Nationmaster.com, the US has 740 television sets per 1,000 people (third highest rate); Australia has 505 per 1,000.

Several members posted details of the plight of the poor in the United States. Tim replies by pointing out that the US has 740 television sets per 1,000 people.

Members make considered criticism of Reagan's presidency and Tim posts details of survey results that show that Reagan was a popular president. It clearly is impossible to have a logical debate with this man.

Message received, point taken.

Adios, Segretti Light

[Tim Gratz]

It is illogical to state that the weight of the great majority of historians from across the political spectrum demonstrates the shallowness of the criticisms rendered by your left-wing group?

[John Dolva]

Adios Muchachos

for long I have sought to reconcile conflicts within myself. My forbears, the duty they instilled in me, my spirit for adventure.

And here I'm stuck, in the middle of the cold war, in that part, diligently prepared for a fight to the death to preserve THEIR perverse, euginicist, supremacists, out of date and out of step with the REAL World.

F@#K!!!!

F#@K RILEY!!! F#@ DAVIS!! F#@k the OSMONDS er...OSWALDS,,F#@k the effbeeie, F#@k the SEEEYEAY..the Capos...viva Villa..viva Panchez...Viva Zapata.........viva che....viva ??? Morgan??? Rodrigues?? David? Guy? ... mum??? sheee-it...armageddonoutaere!

exit stage left..

"Well..uh...we're all reasonable men...Right???" scans the group..."OK lets do it."

"Now here..."

_______________________________

bang....bang.bang...........roar.....................

__________

The rest of the future followed

Where ARE we today, where MIGHT we have beeen???

wierd..my house has 10 visual media inputs (plus some in storage). Reagan WAS popuilar, and to masses still is .. read my lips..tear down that wall Mr Gorbachov.

Meanwhile like the thief in the night he sponsors death squads, foreign interference in sovereign nations, hides the lot with a united complicity and gets away with ...away with it.

Democracy...blaach (Or as Cheech said in "up in smoke " : FRAAANK) Corporate Fascist Rule's OK,