Come Now Let Us Reason Together

[Tim Gratz]

What are the logical possibilities re the M-C rifle?

Let's start with the WC position on the rifle.

Oswald ordered it. Oswald brought it in to the TSBD in a package that he said carried curtain rods. Oswald used it to shoot the President.

Now let's back up one short sentence. Assume Oswald did all but shoot at the president. If all else is true then either Oswald was involved in the plot or (my scenario) he thought it was to be used in a simulated attack on JFK. I suggest the latter the only possibility consistent with Oswald's innocence.

Now we will back up yet another sentence. Oswald ordered the rifle but he never transported it. Someone else retrieved it presumably without his consent and used it to help make Oswald the patsy he claimed to be. Obviously if this happened it had to be someone aware of Oswald's ownership of the rifle. Perhaps this person was even aware of how Oswald had ordered it and how easily it would be traceable to him.

Or we start all over and assume Oswald did not even order the rifle but someone ordered it in his name (wasn't it in Hidell's) back in March. But was there a plan to make Oswald the patsy that early on?

In my opinion if we carefully consider these hypotheses we can consider matters e.g. when the frame started, who was involved, etc. For instance, if Oswald never owned a rifle that makes RP a party to the frame but if he did and someone stole it to frame him then her testimony could have been correct.

Appreciate your thoughts on this line of reasoning re Oswald's relationship (if any) to the M-C.

[Mark Knight]

Another position to consider is that the story about Klein's Sporting Goods being the source of the rifle might have been a total fabrication. Considering the fact that the rifle in custody was not--or was, depending on which version of the story you choose to believe--the model being offered by Kleins' at the time Oswald allegedly ordered it, and considering the fact that the serial number on the money order Oswald allegedly used to purchase the rifle was more in line with a sequence from November 1963 than if it was one from the preceding March...it's not a considerable leap to conclude that the evidence linking the rifle to LHO via Klein's just MIGHT have been manufactured on November 22-23, 1963.

And what of the Japanese riflescope? Investigators concluded that only ONE company imported that particular scope, and that importer only had TWO customers for that riflescope...Klein's, and surprisingly enough, Dave's House of Guns, which was located--of all places on Earth--in Dallas, Texas.

So the possibility exists that LHO might have purchased the MC--IF he purchased it--somewhere other than Klein's; and that he might have purchased it sans scope, and had one installed by Dave' House of Guns, the ONLY OTHER PLACE IN THE COUNTRY besides Klein's that sold that particular riflescope. Given LHO's alleged poverty, it's not totally inconceivable that he just might have purchased the rifle first, minus the scope, and then purchased the scope and installed it--or had it installed--later.

The Klein's money order serial number being BADLY out of sequence suggests to me that the Klein's scenario, put forth as fact by the WC, was a frame. And the missing PO box documentation contributes to my thinking along those lines. SO...if the details of the alleged transaction with Klein's are questionable, the ONLY alternative scenario is one including Dave's House of Guns in Dallas, the ONLY OTHER possible source of the riflescope in the entire USA. And the WC "conveniently" neglected to pursue that line of questioning with David Goldstein, the owner of the gun shop in Dallas.

[Jack White]

Why discuss this subject without being familiar with the most

comprehensive investigation of the MC rifle and Klein's conducted

by John Armstrong in Harvey&Lee? John has the FULL story. He

spent months tracking down every detail. Get the facts before

wasting time.

Jack

[Nathaniel Heidenheimer]

re: the rifle there is also the clip problem, which I only recently read about in this article by Bartholomew. He starts with

the fact that different model rifles besides the MC were initially reported in the press, and then goes into the clip and rifle

problem.

I am still in the middle of this article, and lack perspective in this area, but I must say this is the second article I have

read by this Bartholomew guy, and he is one of the most interesting writers going.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v1n2/gtds.html

[Thomas H. Purvis]

What are the logical possibilities re the M-C rifle?

Let's start with the WC position on the rifle.

Oswald ordered it. Oswald brought it in to the TSBD in a package that he said carried curtain rods. Oswald used it to shoot the President.

Now let's back up one short sentence. Assume Oswald did all but shoot at the president. If all else is true then either Oswald was involved in the plot or (my scenario) he thought it was to be used in a simulated attack on JFK. I suggest the latter the only possibility consistent with Oswald's innocence.

Now we will back up yet another sentence. Oswald ordered the rifle but he never transported it. Someone else retrieved it presumably without his consent and used it to help make Oswald the patsy he claimed to be. Obviously if this happened it had to be someone aware of Oswald's ownership of the rifle. Perhaps this person was even aware of how Oswald had ordered it and how easily it would be traceable to him.

Or we start all over and assume Oswald did not even order the rifle but someone ordered it in his name (wasn't it in Hidell's) back in March. But was there a plan to make Oswald the patsy that early on?

In my opinion if we carefully consider these hypotheses we can consider matters e.g. when the frame started, who was involved, etc. For instance, if Oswald never owned a rifle that makes RP a party to the frame but if he did and someone stole it to frame him then her testimony could have been correct.

Appreciate your thoughts on this line of reasoning re Oswald's relationship (if any) to the M-C.

1. Oswald ordered it.

Oswald ordered "A" Carcano Rifle. Due to conflicting data, it can not be determined exactly what length rifle was actually shipped to the LHO Post Office Box, and it can not be proven that the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSDB was the model/make of rifle which was shipped and received by LHO.

2. Oswald brought it in to the TSBD in a package that he said carried curtain rods.

The rifle which was utilized in the assassination was ultimately found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

And, although physical evidence exists (backyard photo's) which demonstrate that the found rifle and the rifle in LHO's possession were identical in model & make, this can not confirm that the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSDB is in fact the rifle received by LHO,: held by LHO in the backyard photo's; the rifle ordered by LHO; or that the rifle was transported to the TSDB in the brown paper wrapping (bag); or that LHO transported said rifle to the TSDB.

3. Oswald used it to shoot the President.

Ballistic evidence clearly demonstrates that of the two known shots (bullets) which were fired (& struck) in the assassination event, beyond any reasonable doubt, came from the Carcano rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

And, by virtually all standards of evidence of 1963, LHO could have and would have been convicted of having fired these shots from the Carcano rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

"Shyster" type lawyer techniques of the "OJ Era" which attempt to cast doubt on all evidence in order to cast doubt on the gathering of said evidenc,e does not mean that the evidence is invalid.

It merely means that the human mind can be manipulated to come up with "doubt".

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Beyond any reasonable and/or rational doubt, LHO fired the shots (all three) responsible for the assassination of JFK and the wounding of JBC.

That the WC is a misrepresentation of the simple facts of the assassination is not evidence that the WC was a government entity which served some purpose in some mythological plot of the assassination.

It merely means that, for some yet to be revealed reason (yet to be believed anyway), the WC was a lie!

And, it was not a "U.S. Government" lie!

It was merely a select group of lawyers & Politicians who, although appearance demonstrated that they represented the US Government, actually had other representations for their own personal political agenda's.

And, in so doing, they just may have allowed the covert assassination of a President of the US to go undetected, while they each chased their own personal and political fame and agenda.

Therein lies their CRIME!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Perhaps the below article will drag Tim out of seclusion.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQ...53/ai_n19313646

[Charles Drago]

Beyond any reasonable and/or rational doubt, LHO fired the shots (all three) responsible for the assassination of JFK and the wounding of JBC.

That the WC is a misrepresentation of the simple facts of the assassination is not evidence that the WC was a government entity which served some purpose in some mythological plot of the assassination.

It merely means that, for some yet to be revealed reason (yet to be believed anyway), the WC was a lie!

And, it was not a "U.S. Government" lie!

It was merely a select group of lawyers & Politicians who, although appearance demonstrated that they represented the US Government, actually had other representations for their own personal political agenda's.

And, in so doing, they just may have allowed the covert assassination of a President of the US to go undetected, while they each chased their own personal and political fame and agenda.

Therein lies their CRIME!

Thomas Merton would have recognized the above as reflecting "the punctilious exactitude of [Purvis's] obedience ... "

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Beyond any reasonable and/or rational doubt, LHO fired the shots (all three) responsible for the assassination of JFK and the wounding of JBC.

That the WC is a misrepresentation of the simple facts of the assassination is not evidence that the WC was a government entity which served some purpose in some mythological plot of the assassination.

It merely means that, for some yet to be revealed reason (yet to be believed anyway), the WC was a lie!

And, it was not a "U.S. Government" lie!

It was merely a select group of lawyers & Politicians who, although appearance demonstrated that they represented the US Government, actually had other representations for their own personal political agenda's.

And, in so doing, they just may have allowed the covert assassination of a President of the US to go undetected, while they each chased their own personal and political fame and agenda.

Therein lies their CRIME!

Thomas Merton would have recognized the above as reflecting "the punctilious exactitude of [Purvis's] obedience ... "

Actually!

[Purvis} has stated it and therefore insured that it is "placed into the record" in order that History may ultimately be the judge and thereafter compare it with the frequently expoused insults to intelligence of the "Charles Drago's" of the assassination community.

Just wanted to make certain that you got that Charles.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Thomas H. Purvis