Kathleen Collins Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Can any members, Jack White maybe, post a photo of the real Lee Oswald (as opposed to Harvey) that you are sure is Lee? I was reading old posts on Phil Ochs, and the writer, Mr. Glover, said after the assassination he saw a man looking like the man they had in custody (Harvey) but taller. And I read Judyth saying Harvey was brought up in the US and came from the Cajun-French section of Louisiana, and that that's where he got his accent. I believe Harvey came from Russia. As I said before there's a tape of Harvey stammering over English words with a weird British accent. It was the same voice of the man Ruby killed. But his English was now fluent. Judyth also said there was a lot of inbreeding in Cajun, LA, and a lot of men looked like Harvey. (She calls him Lee.) Where are the Lee pictures? The one in the classroom, in which he's showing his missing tooth, I believe is Lee. But what about when he was older? Kathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Pointing Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 (edited) Can any members, Jack White maybe, post a photo of the real Lee Oswald (as opposed to Harvey) that you are sure is Lee? As I said before there's a tape of Harvey stammering over English words with a weird British accent. It was the same voice of the man Ruby killed. But his English was now fluent. Judyth also said there was a lot of inbreeding in Cajun, LA, and a lot of men looked like Harvey. (She calls him Lee.) Where are the Lee pictures? The one in the classroom, in which he's showing his missing tooth, I believe is Lee. But what about when he was older? Kathy Kathy, there's a longer version of this tape, easily found on the web, which has Oswald speaking in his normal American accent as well as his rather poor imitation of an upper class English accent. The longer version makes it more obvious, IMO, that Oswald is just fooling around. Its been suggested by some that this recording is really "Oswald" being taught how to speak English, if this was true I dont belive his KGB "teacher" would have handed the tapes over. Just my opinion. When it comes to Norton, whom I know your extremely interested in, all common sense seems to fly out the window. Had LHO survived he would have been taken back to Russia and "got rid of", at the very least he would have been hidden away somewhere very remote. The Russians would have 100% definitely NOT have allowed him to go back to the USA, let alone start talking to JFK researchers. Rethink Armstrong, his theories are so ludicous I wouldn't be surprised if the guy was pure disinformation, this is certainly the kind of wacko theory that gets researchers laughed at by the public. And no politician will ever support the research community whilst nonsense like that is being supported. Denis. Edited February 3, 2008 by Denis Pointing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen Collins Posted February 3, 2008 Author Share Posted February 3, 2008 Kathy, I can assure you that anyone who is British, including me, can tell a mile away that the accent on the tape is not a British accent from any Bristish region, nowhere close, and his American accent shines through very cleary on those tapes.Duncan Duncan, not that it matters, but I'm 100% Irish descent. If you'll listen again to that tape from Russia, he speaks in a weird British accent mixed with another accent. He seems to be a native Russian or Hungarian, and somone with a British accent early on began teaching him English. It's bizarre. Then when you listen to Oswald in America, on the 2 radio broadcasts and at the Dallas Police Station, it's the same voice, only now, after 3 years, he's got a good command of American English. Your Friend, Kathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen Collins Posted February 3, 2008 Author Share Posted February 3, 2008 Kathy, there's a longer version of this tape, easily found on the web, which has Oswald speaking in his normal American accent as well as his rather poor imitation of an upper class English accent. The longer version makes it more obvious, IMO, that Oswald is just fooling around. Its been suggested by some that this recording is really "Oswald" being taught how to speak English, if this was true I dont belive his KGB "teacher" would have handed the tapes over. Just my opinion. When it comes to Norton, whom I know your extremely interested in, all common sense seems to fly out the window. Had LHO survived he would have been taken back to Russia and "got rid of", at the very least he would have been hidden away somewhere very remote. The Russians would have 100% definitely NOT have allowed him to go back to the USA, let alone start talking to JFK researchers. Rethink Armstrong, his theories are so ludicous I wouldn't be surprised if the guy was pure disinformation, this is certainly the kind of wacko theory that gets researchers laughed at by the public. And no politician will ever support the research community whilst nonsense like that is being supported. Denis. I would love to find the longer version of the Russian tape. I'll have to keep plugging along. Norman Mailer was able to learn a lot of info from the KGB when Russia split. Why not the tape? Donald O. Norton is a puzzle to me. These yearbook photos -- why do we have them if they're not relevant? And the photos I found of Norton and Geb as adults? I guess the initial photos John Armstrong discovered. But Norton isn't mentioned in Armstrong's book, Harvey and Lee. Someone, probably a long time ago, identified these pictures as Lee Oswald, who escaped Dallas. But if Lee resembled Harvey, why does he have red hair? The origin of all this puzzles me. Maybe Jack White knows they're relevance. They are true redheads, not dyed. How could they resemble Oswald? Basically, where did these photos come from? What happened to the real Lee Oswald? Would he be able to walk around and tell Mae Brussel he was Donald O. Norton/Lee Oswald? Supposedly John Judge and others saw this man and were struck with his resemblance to Harvey. Was this man they saw deluded, believing he was connected to the Kennedy Assassination? He supposedly was sending Mae Brussell money and recited word for word Harvey's words from his radio show appearance. I guess he would make a good mate to Judyth Baker. I'm going to try and find the longer version of that Russian tape. Kathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen Collins Posted February 3, 2008 Author Share Posted February 3, 2008 I would love to find the longer version of the Russian tape. I'll have to keep plugging along. Norman Mailer was able to learn a lot of info from the KGB when Russia split. Why not the tape?Kathy I have found this on jfk-info: In the widely read book on the JFK assassination, Crossfire (Carroll and Graf: NY) by Jim Marrs, he includes a chapter entitled, "Was Oswald Really Oswald?" dealing with the numerous "Oswalds" that seemed to be in several places at once, along with a summary of the events surrounding the exhumation of Oswald's remains in 1981 initiated by Eddowes with the eventual support of Marina Oswald Porter. It is interesting to note that, according to researcher Gary Mack, "three language experts at Southern Methodist University in Dallas studied tape recordings made of Oswald. They were not told the identity of the man whose voice they heard. All agreed that the English words spoken seemed acquired later in life - that English was not the native tongue of the man on the tape."(108) Marrs also quotes Mrs. Jeanne DeMohrenschildt, widow of George DeMohrenschildt, as recalling that Oswald "spoke in deliberate and precise terms, rarely ever using slang or curse words"(108) and certainly didn't sound like a boy brought up in the South. Kathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen Collins Posted February 3, 2008 Author Share Posted February 3, 2008 Kathy, there's a longer version of this tape, easily found on the web, which has Oswald speaking in his normal American accent as well as his rather poor imitation of an upper class English accent. The longer version makes it more obvious, IMO, that Oswald is just fooling around. Its been suggested by some that this recording is really "Oswald" being taught how to speak English, if this was true I dont belive his KGB "teacher" would have handed the tapes over. Just my opinion. When it comes to Norton, whom I know your extremely interested in, all common sense seems to fly out the window. Had LHO survived he would have been taken back to Russia and "got rid of", at the very least he would have been hidden away somewhere very remote. The Russians would have 100% definitely NOT have allowed him to go back to the USA, let alone start talking to JFK researchers. Rethink Armstrong, his theories are so ludicous I wouldn't be surprised if the guy was pure disinformation, this is certainly the kind of wacko theory that gets researchers laughed at by the public. And no politician will ever support the research community whilst nonsense like that is being supported. Denis. Denis, or anyone, where can I find the longer Minsk tape of Oswald that supposedly lasts 2 hours? Kathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Pointing Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) Kathy, there's a longer version of this tape, easily found on the web, which has Oswald speaking in his normal American accent as well as his rather poor imitation of an upper class English accent. The longer version makes it more obvious, IMO, that Oswald is just fooling around. Its been suggested by some that this recording is really "Oswald" being taught how to speak English, if this was true I dont belive his KGB "teacher" would have handed the tapes over. Just my opinion. When it comes to Norton, whom I know your extremely interested in, all common sense seems to fly out the window. Had LHO survived he would have been taken back to Russia and "got rid of", at the very least he would have been hidden away somewhere very remote. The Russians would have 100% definitely NOT have allowed him to go back to the USA, let alone start talking to JFK researchers. Rethink Armstrong, his theories are so ludicous I wouldn't be surprised if the guy was pure disinformation, this is certainly the kind of wacko theory that gets researchers laughed at by the public. And no politician will ever support the research community whilst nonsense like that is being supported. Denis. I would love to find the longer version of the Russian tape. I'll have to keep plugging along. Norman Mailer was able to learn a lot of info from the KGB when Russia split. Why not the tape? Donald O. Norton is a puzzle to me. These yearbook photos -- why do we have them if they're not relevant? And the photos I found of Norton and Geb as adults? I guess the initial photos John Armstrong discovered. But Norton isn't mentioned in Armstrong's book, Harvey and Lee. Someone, probably a long time ago, identified these pictures as Lee Oswald, who escaped Dallas. But if Lee resembled Harvey, why does he have red hair? The origin of all this puzzles me. Maybe Jack White knows they're relevance. They are true redheads, not dyed. How could they resemble Oswald? Basically, where did these photos come from? What happened to the real Lee Oswald? Would he be able to walk around and tell Mae Brussel he was Donald O. Norton/Lee Oswald? Supposedly John Judge and others saw this man and were struck with his resemblance to Harvey. Was this man they saw deluded, believing he was connected to the Kennedy Assassination? He supposedly was sending Mae Brussell money and recited word for word Harvey's words from his radio show appearance. I guess he would make a good mate to Judyth Baker. I'm going to try and find the longer version of that Russian tape. Kathy Kathy, the full 2 hr tape has never been released, to my knowledge, there is however a 3-4 min version out there. It makes it clear that Titovetz and Oswald are just fooling around, the segment you refer to has Oswald imitating an upper class Englishman, we call it "talking with a plum in your mouth". Oswald is NOT trying to learn English. Read the following: " Titovetz recalls that it was very important for Oswald to be able to converse with someone in his native language, for he was never very good at learning Russian. Titovetz, too, was quite eager to speak English to a real American, so they saw a lot of each other. In fact, Titovetz viewed Oswald as a "talking machine" or an "English language textbook on legs." He even recorded Oswald's voice on tape in order to listen and analyze the American way of speaking. Incidentally, Izvestia continues, these tape recordings and letters from Oswald in America are still in Titovetz's possession - for some reason the KGB never got around to them". Was the man ( Norton) John Judge etc met deluded? Possible, IMO he was definitely trying to appear dark and mysterious and give the impression he was Oswald, but I dont belive he ever made that particular claim. There certainly seems to have been an attempt to "sheep dip" Oswald by having someone impersonate him, but I personally dont belive in the extreme nonsense that Armstrong put's forward in his book. You, of course, will have to make up your own mind. Personally, I dont belive there ever was a "Harvey and Lee", just a Lee, who was slain by Ruby. Going back to Oswald's accent, dont forget that he suffered badly from bullies at school in New York, making fun of his southern speech, he also seems to have been embarrassed by his accent which he deliberately tried to hide. I belive that accounts for his rather "unnatural" sounding voice. Kathy, with respect, you seem totally obsessed with Norton and Harvey and Lee, maybe its time to forget that nonsense and move on. Believe me every thing becomes a lot clearer without that disinformation. Up to you honey, good luck. Denis. Edited February 4, 2008 by Denis Pointing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 [...] There certainly seems to have been an attempt to "sheep dip" Oswald by having someone impersonate him, but I personally dont belive in the extreme nonsense that Armstrong put's forward in his book. You, of course, will have to make up your own mind. [...] "extreme nonsense" not bad for no cites, eh? Perhaps you can be the first to undertake the huge project, shooting down Armstrongs work. Show him the error of his ways, eh? Have you even READ Armstrong's book. Thanks, DHealy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Pointing Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) [...] There certainly seems to have been an attempt to "sheep dip" Oswald by having someone impersonate him, but I personally dont belive in the extreme nonsense that Armstrong put's forward in his book. You, of course, will have to make up your own mind. [...] "extreme nonsense" not bad for no cites, eh? Perhaps you can be the first to undertake the huge project, shooting down Armstrongs work. Show him the error of his ways, eh? Have you even READ Armstrong's book. Thanks, DHealy Yes I have read Armstrong's book, in fact I'm re-reading it at the moment....to my 5 year old daughter every night at bedtime, its a far better fairy tale than Jack and the beanstalk. LOL. If you want to belive that c**p Healy that's up to you. I dont...o.k. And I certainly dont intend wasting my time debating the issue. Like it or lump it, that's my opinion. And if my opinion upsets your or anyone else's fantasy world.... tough. Edited February 4, 2008 by Denis Pointing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen Collins Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 Was the man ( Norton) John Judge etc met deluded? Possible, IMO he was definitely trying to appear dark and mysterious and give the impression he was Oswald, but I dont belive he ever made that particular claim. There certainly seems to have been an attempt to "sheep dip" Oswald by having someone impersonate him, but I personally dont belive in the extreme nonsense that Armstrong put's forward in his book. You, of course, will have to make up your own mind. Personally, I dont belive there ever was a "Harvey and Lee", just a Lee, who was slain by Ruby. Going back to Oswald's accent, dont forget that he suffered badly from bullies at school in New York, making fun of his southern speech, he also seems to have been embarrassed by his accent which he deliberately tried to hide. I belive that accounts for his rather "unnatural" sounding voice. Kathy, with respect, you seem totally obsessed with Norton and Harvey and Lee, maybe its time to forget that nonsense and move on. Believe me every thing becomes a lot clearer without that disinformation. Up to you honey, good luck. Denis. Denis, recently I posted a theory about the death of actress Karyn Kupcinet. I'd like your opinion: Next, was Karyn Kupcinet. I believe there was a contract out on her. Mafia bigwig, Paul Dorfman, realized that some kind of major happenstance in Chicago was needed to take the pressure off the Mob and Jack Ruby. He spent the weekend of Kennedy's death in Palm Springs, CA. Karyn Kupcinet was also in Palm Springs for the weekend. Did Dorfman see her? Somehow, her father, Irv Kupcinet, got in touch with Dorfman in Palm Springs, and asked about Ruby. I think Dorfman had a brainstorm: kill Karyn Kupcinet, who was Irv Kupcinet's daughter, so well-known in Chicago. That headline would overpower anything about Jack Ruby and the Mob. A distraction, needed to get the heat off the Chicago Mob. I think the killer cut off her carotid artery in a headlock and placed her face down on the couch. The face down was an additional insult, especially to a woman. The blood would center in her face and leave her discolored. Then her father flew to West Hollywood and had to identify her. Only, in Kup's case, a close family friend did it for him. Irv, prominent columnist and talk show host, wouldn't have Ruby on his mind. Kathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Pointing Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Was the man ( Norton) John Judge etc met deluded? Possible, IMO he was definitely trying to appear dark and mysterious and give the impression he was Oswald, but I dont belive he ever made that particular claim. There certainly seems to have been an attempt to "sheep dip" Oswald by having someone impersonate him, but I personally dont belive in the extreme nonsense that Armstrong put's forward in his book. You, of course, will have to make up your own mind. Personally, I dont belive there ever was a "Harvey and Lee", just a Lee, who was slain by Ruby. Going back to Oswald's accent, dont forget that he suffered badly from bullies at school in New York, making fun of his southern speech, he also seems to have been embarrassed by his accent which he deliberately tried to hide. I belive that accounts for his rather "unnatural" sounding voice. Kathy, with respect, you seem totally obsessed with Norton and Harvey and Lee, maybe its time to forget that nonsense and move on. Believe me every thing becomes a lot clearer without that disinformation. Up to you honey, good luck. Denis. Denis, recently I posted a theory about the death of actress Karyn Kupcinet. I'd like your opinion: Next, was Karyn Kupcinet. I believe there was a contract out on her. Mafia bigwig, Paul Dorfman, realized that some kind of major happenstance in Chicago was needed to take the pressure off the Mob and Jack Ruby. He spent the weekend of Kennedy's death in Palm Springs, CA. Karyn Kupcinet was also in Palm Springs for the weekend. Did Dorfman see her? Somehow, her father, Irv Kupcinet, got in touch with Dorfman in Palm Springs, and asked about Ruby. I think Dorfman had a brainstorm: kill Karyn Kupcinet, who was Irv Kupcinet's daughter, so well-known in Chicago. That headline would overpower anything about Jack Ruby and the Mob. A distraction, needed to get the heat off the Chicago Mob. I think the killer cut off her carotid artery in a headlock and placed her face down on the couch. The face down was an additional insult, especially to a woman. The blood would center in her face and leave her discolored. Then her father flew to West Hollywood and had to identify her. Only, in Kup's case, a close family friend did it for him. Irv, prominent columnist and talk show host, wouldn't have Ruby on his mind. Kathy Sorry Kathy, I'm afraid I know virtually nil re Karyn Kupcinet. I'm sure someone else here is more qualified to give an opinion. Denis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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