Help in correlating timing to z-frames

[Miles Scull]

Only 2 men on the steps in Willis, agreed.

The correct phrase would be 'only two men seen on the steps in Willis'. The man closer to the camera is blocking out Hudson, but if one looks closely ... there are parts of Hudson seen beyond the closer man. The two mens coats blend making it appear to be one man with unnaturally long arms ... would one not agree. The other is the sag in Hudson's pants that can be seen behind the closer man's knee.

The reason for one man's coat appearing lighter in one image over another is due to the angle of reflection of the sun's light. There are numerous instances in the Willis photo alone that demonstrates how dark clothing looks light where the suns light is shining down upon it. In real life it would not have looked so different, but on film is another matter altogether.

Hudson in Willis is NOT looking at the limo. This is shown by BM's analysis quoted above.

This analysis leads to unexpected consequences:

(RSM =Red Shirt Man)

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Hudson is saying that "young fellow" stood next to him from the time the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm until the second shot.

But the man standing next to Hudson in Moorman ran away in seconds after the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Hudson is saying that after the man ran up the stairs the "young fellow" (RSM), who had stood with him since the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, told him to lie down.

This means that the photographic evidence does not agree or comport with Hudson's testimony. It contradicts Hudson.

Miller's explanation for this is that Hudson became confused & imagined that, when the the man ran up the stairs & was replaced by RSM,... that RSM was the man who ran away & had been by him all the while. One man became another man in Hudson's mind: a doppelgänger.

Miller is saying, therefore, that Hudson had a very powerful hallucination.

Very good. This renders Hudson unreliable & not credible & so vitiates Hudson's testimony as valid.

This appalling development was noticed by Ken, who realized that the only remotely plausible scenario was that "run-away-man" dashed to safety behind the retaining wall & then comically shouted in a huge, stentorian voice instructions to Hudson.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time,

Hudson means the "young fellow" who had sat with him & stood with him during the period of time that Husdon is recalling, which period of time Hudson calls the "present time," SAYS to him at the time of the third shot: "Lay down."

Hudson uses the verb "SAYS," not shouts not yells not screams. This clearly means that the person who says to Hudson "Lay down, lay down'' is a person who is close enough to Hudson to be heard in the din of the passing motorcade by means of a volume level & loudness of tone which is below that of someone yelling or shouting.

The only person who could SAY this was RSM.

he says,

Hudson uses the verb: says.

"lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President."

Hudson's use of the word "Mister" is significant. Why? Would the man who had run up the stairs (to allegedly lie down on the sidewalk behind the retaining wall) have looked to see Hudson & RSM, practically in one another's arms, and have called out to them: "Lay down, Mister?'' Why warn only one to lie down & not the other?

But, if RSM was saying this, then, of course, since he was addressing only one man as the other had run away, he would naturally say to Hudson: "Lay down, Mister (singular)."

He says,

Again, Hudson uses SAYS,

"Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down."

Hudson says that the "young man" kept repeating "Lay down." Hudson indicates that a length of time passes while this repeating goes on. During this time Hudson receives these warnings. Hudson explains that he then does something for certain reasons. What are these reasons? First Hudson explains that the "young man is already lying ONE WAYon the sidewalk.

so

So. Hudson uses this conjunction "so" to indicate connection & causation. (He did this, so I did this.)

he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk,

Hudson explains.

so

So. Hudson uses this conjunction "so" to indicate connection & causation. (He did this, so I did this.)

I just laid down over on the ground

Hudson is saying that the reason he lay on the GROUND was because the "young fellow" had already laid down on the sidewalk ONE WAY and there was NO ROOM there for Hudson to lie down THERE. Hudson explains that he had to lie down on the ground, he had no other choice.

Hudson is trying to explain his actions & movements so that it is clear to LIEBELER why he, Hudson, could apprehend & judge the origin & direction of the third shot. He is answering the question put to him by LIEBELER, and, since Hudson grasps the great importance of the question, Hudson is attempting to be as clear as he can be.

and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

So, a close study of Hudson's exact words leads to the conclusion that Hudson meant that RSM warned him to "lay down."

The possibility that "run-away-man" so warned Hudson is eliminated. QED

Edit: spelling

Edited April 12, 2008 by Miles Scull

[Lee Forman]

Only 2 men on the steps in Willis, agreed.

The correct phrase would be 'only two men seen on the steps in Willis'. The man closer to the camera is blocking out Hudson, but if one looks closely ... there are parts of Hudson seen beyond the closer man. The two mens coats blend making it appear to be one man with unnaturally long arms ... would one not agree. The other is the sag in Hudson's pants that can be seen behind the closer man's knee.

The reason for one man's coat appearing lighter in one image over another is due to the angle of reflection of the sun's light. There are numerous instances in the Willis photo alone that demonstrates how dark clothing looks light where the suns light is shining down upon it. In real life it would not have looked so different, but on film is another matter altogether.

I looked closely and see nothing of the kind. You made a very logical response though - but I don't agree. Let's not forget that the rendition you have provided attempts to solve the problem of the Willis vs Muchmore, Nix and Moorman - but doesn't address the issues with the man seen squatting on the stairs in the Moorman, or Hudson's testimony. Why not mention that he was standing with 2 men? Why not mention that one ran away? We see him sitting on the steps - not with the one that ran away, but the man that was to his left, and a bit further down the steps at the time of the motorcade. How can that not be the young man he describes?

I agree with you that the images can look different - I don't know that this explains BDM. Since you have volunteered the information in the past that you had interviewed Hudson's kin - any chance of asking them a few more questions? Or providing me with their contact info so I can ask?

Did your Father ever indicate any funny business with the photos?

Did he ever say anything about seeing a man in the photos that he didn't remember being there?

Did he ever say anything about a man behind him on the steps?

Did he ever say anything about someone being wounded behind him?

Did he mention anything about the young man he encountered that day, and where he was in the

photo?

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Assuming that we're roughly right on the timing as compared to the Zapruder film, then the difference in position between the man seen in Muchmore and the man seen in Nix is 11 frames. z241 vs z252. At 18.3fps, how does he travel the distance between point A and point B in less than one second. And note how very different the two appear.

[Bill Miller]

Let's not forget that the rendition you have provided attempts to solve the problem of the Willis vs Muchmore, Nix and Moorman - but doesn't address the issues with the man seen squatting on the stairs in the Moorman, or Hudson's testimony. Why not mention that he was standing with 2 men? Why not mention that one ran away? We see him sitting on the steps - not with the one that ran away, but the man that was to his left, and a bit further down the steps at the time of the motorcade. How can that not be the young man he describes?

I don't know of anyone seen squatting in Moorman's photo. The man on the lower steps is clapping his hands and startled by the President's head having just exploded. Hudson's eye was trained on the President ... in his WC testimony he misspoke or misremembered a fraction of the shocking event that unfolded before his eyes IMO. He had recalled sitting next to the man who he spoke with and he remembered they standing up together. Hudson also remembered a young man telling him to get down. Either Hudson didn't know the one man ran away (for Emmett was watching the President) and assumed it was he who was telling him to get down, or Hudson's mind just didn't record the event properly. People do the latter more times than not when talking about a sudden stressful situation.

Did your Father ever indicate any funny business with the photos?

Did he ever say anything about seeing a man in the photos that he didn't remember being there?

Did he ever say anything about a man behind him on the steps?

Did he ever say anything about someone being wounded behind him?

Did he mention anything about the young man he encountered that day, and where he was in the

photo?

Hudson's son (William) said that his father had a newspaper that had Moorman's photo on it and would show the picture often telling how he was one of the men on the steps. From what I recall ... Hudson knew there were three men on the steps as depicted in the assassination images. I think I recall William saying that his dad thought that shots had come from behind him. William told me nothing about his dad seeing anyone wounded on the knoll. And the reason he talked about the one man next to him was because that guy had come and sat next to Hudson before the President's arrival ... they chatted ... and then stood up together when JFK entered the Plaza. I never heard anything said about Emmett talking to the other man on the lower steps. The only connection that guy had IMO was that it appears that it was he who told Emmett to get down and Hudson merely got that mixed up with the man who had sat with him and talked before the shooting started.

Edited April 12, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Assuming that we're roughly right on the timing as compared to the Zapruder film, then the difference in position between the man seen in Muchmore and the man seen in Nix is 11 frames. z241 vs z252. At 18.3fps, how does he travel the distance between point A and point B in less than one second. And note how very different the two appear.

I think there was a thread on this forum that showed the films in sync with one another. Maybe review them and see if you see it differently.

Bill

[Lee Forman]

Same approximate position where we first catch a glimpse of the man running in Nix, as well as the man squatting in the Moorman. Overlay using a crop from the Moorman and Muchmore.

I saw one man run towards the passenger cars on the railroad siding after the volley of shots. This man had a white dress shirt, no tie and kahki [sic] colored trousers. His hair appeared to be long and dark and his agility running could be about 35 yrs [sic] of age. He had something in his hand. I couldn't be sure but it may have been a head piece.

That will work.

'What's going on?' screamed someone from the back of the bus. At that moment I saw a man I believed to be a photographer - but don't ask me what kind of camera he carried - struggling up a grassy embankment ahead and to the right of the President's car, ducking his head as if under fire. He was pursued - or, at any rate, followed - by a motorcyle policeman who rammed his three-wheeled machine over a curb and, as it righted itself, pulled a pistol from his holster....

Lane's best witness, Lee Bowers Jr., told the Warren commission that 'something occurred in this particular spot which was out of the ordinary, which attracted my eye for some reason, which I could not identify.' Of course! What probably attracted Bower's eyes and those of a hundred other stunned spectators to that grassy embankment at that moment was the out-of-the-ordinary sight of a motorcycle policeman, pistol in hand, pursuing a gunman who, if real, had just committed the crime of the Century. At that moment, I, too, thought that something had occurred in that area which was 'out of the ordinary.' Later, after no witness testified that he saw a gun or gunman there, and the police failed to find any trace of a gun or gunmen there, and pathologists found that the President had not been hit from the front, I was pursuaded by the physical evidence - as opposed to the testimony of excited eyewitnesses - that nothing had occurred there beyond a Policeman's eye-catching but futile reconnaissance of the embankment."

Newsweek, December 5, 1966, pgs 22 - 23.

I am not so easily pursuaded - and I write propaganda on a routine basis myself.

Mr. COUCH - That's right; that's right. It's there that I saw blood on the sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you say you saw blood on the sidewalk, Mr. Couch?

Mr. COUCH - That's right.

Mr. BELIN - Where was that?

Mr. COUCH - This was the little walkway - steps and walkway that leads up to the corner, the west corner, the southwest corner of the book Depository Building. Another little sidewalk, as I recall, turns west and forms that little parkway and archway right next to the Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN - Did this appear to be freshly created blood?

Mr. COUCH - Yes; right.

Mr. BELIN - About how large was this spot of blood that you saw?

Mr. COUCH - Uh - from 8 to 10 inches in diameter.

Mr. BELIN - Did people around there say how it happened to get there, or not?

Mr. COUCH - No; no one knew. People were watching it - that is watching it carefully and walking and pointing to it. Uh - just as I ran up, policemen ran around the west corner and ran - uh - northward on the side of the building. And my first impression was that - uh - that they had chased someone out of the building around that corner, or possibly they had wounded someone. All of those policemen had their pistols pulled. And people were pointing back around those shrubs and that west corner and - uh - you would think that there was a chase going on in that direction.

Again, the reason that I didn't follow was because A.J. had come up, and my first concern was to get back with the President.

Mrs. HILL - That's right. I saw a man up there running, or getting away or walking away or something--I would say he was running.

Mr. SPECTER - Where was that man when you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL - He was right up there by the School Depository, just--not at the corner where they say the shots came from, at the other end, right up on the slope at the top of the slope.

Mr. SPECTER - Would that be in front of the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - At the west end?

Mrs. HILL - More to the west end.

Mr. SPECTER - Would it be between the westernmost point of the building and some other point in the building? Was he at the westernmost point or farther east than the westernmost point?

Mrs. HILL - I would say he was farther east than the westernmost point.

Mr. SPECTER - Would you draw a diagram for me in rough outline, starting with Houston Street---

Mrs. HILL - Yes; but I can't do this very well.

Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to draw an outline, then, to get your bearing here and realizing that I want your recollection, and I'll ask you the questions. Assume that Houston Street is the street which I am marking Houston. Assume that this is Main Street. Assume that Elm Street curves down in the manner that I am drawing and marking.

Mrs. HILL - All right.

Mr. SPECTER - Assume that the Texas School Book Depository is this large building which I will mark "TSBD." Now, would you place with the letter "A" where you were at the time the President went by?

Mrs. HILL - Well, I would have to place the President first.

Mr. SPECTER - Fine---place him with the letter "X".

Mrs. HILL - All right--if he were here---

Mr. SPECTER - Now, was he in the center of the street or on the side of the street?

Mrs. HILL - He was on the side he wasn't just completely over there, but he was past the center of the street and we were---

Mr. SPECTER - Now, place yourself with the letter "A".

Mrs. HILL - Right there [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER - Make it a big printed "A" for us.

Mrs. HILL - Okay. [Complied with request of counsel Specter.]

Mr. SPECTER - Now, would you place the position you ran to after the President's car went by?

Mrs. HILL - By that time, I'm sure the car was here it was on down a little way and I ran behind here.

Mr. SPECTER - Draw a line to where you ran.

Mrs. HILL - All right--I don't know whether I've got this just right--but I ran approximately right up through here.

Mr. SPECTER - Put a "B" here where you were when you came to a stop on the other side of the street.

Mrs. HILL - These steps.

Mr. SPECTER - Now, where were you when you first noticed the

Mrs. HILL - These steps that go up--I guess you've looked at the site, there are some steps down there that go up to that promenade, or whatever you call it.

Mr. SPECTER - That go in a generally westerly direction?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - Beyond the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL - Yes; and I was just on this side

Mr. SPECTER - "This side"---you are meaning---the east of it?

Mrs. HILL - The east of it.

Mr. SPECTER - Were you beyond the westernmost point of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL - No.

Mr. SPECTER - You were still in front of that building?

Mrs. HILL - That's right.

Mr. SPECTER - Now, is the letter "B" now in the position where you were when you first saw that man?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - Where was that man, indicating with the letter "C," where he was? He was very close to you?

Mrs. HILL - Well, he was at the top of this hill---you don't leave me any space in here I mean, there's a distance in here greater than what is shown here.

Mr. SPECTER - He was between Elm Street and the Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - And where did you see him going?

Mrs. HILL - I saw him go toward the tracks, toward the railroad tracks to the west?

Mr. SPECTER - What did you observe about that man, if anything?

Mrs. HILL - That he just had on a brown overcoat and a hat.

Mr. SPECTER - Why was your attention attracted to him?

Mrs. HILL - Because he was the only thing moving up there. The other people were all grief stricken and standing there and I don't know what I would have done with 'him when I got up there, but I don't know why I even had the instinct to run, and I don't know that it is anything even connected with this, but since I had already---I have told it and it is part of my recollection, I am just stating it again.

Mr. SPECTER - Well, was there anything about the man that attracted your attention to him beside the fact that he was moving?

Mrs. HILL - I just thought at the time that's the man that did it.

Mr. SPECTER - Why did you think that this was the man that did it?

Mrs. HILL - I just don't know--I mean-that was my thought.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you see any weapon in his hand?

Mrs. HILL - No; I never saw a weapon during the whole time, in anyone's hand.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you see that man from the front?

Mrs. HILL - As well as I remember, now, when I saw him he was turning and going to the west.

Mr. SPECTER - Was he in the process of turning when you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL - Yes; I would say he was turning.

Mr. SPECTER - So that you had some view of his front part of his body?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - And did you see any weapon at that time?

Mrs. HILL - No, sir; he was three-fourths turned by the time I did see him.

Mr. SPECTER - Could you see both of his hands at that time?

Mrs. HILL - No.

Mr. SPECTER - Could you see one of his hands at that time?

Mrs. HILL - No; I do not even remember seeing his hands.

Mr. SPECTER - I mean, if he was turning, his hands would have been visible, wouldn't they?

Mrs. HILL - They surely would have been.

Mr. SPECTER - So, what you are saying is, you don't have any recollection of seeing his hands?

Mrs. HILL - I have no recollection--that's right.

Mr. SPECTER - But from the position of his body, his hands would have been in the position where they could have been observed?

Mrs. HILL - That's right--surely.

Mr. SPECTER - And do you have any recollection of observing any weapon in either hand?

Mrs. HILL - No; I never saw a weapon the whole time.

But sure as !%^& sounds like you did somehow buddy.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Only 2 men on the steps in Willis, agreed.

The correct phrase would be 'only two men seen on the steps in Willis'. The man closer to the camera is blocking out Hudson, but if one looks closely ... there are parts of Hudson seen beyond the closer man. The two mens coats blend making it appear to be one man with unnaturally long arms ... would one not agree. The other is the sag in Hudson's pants that can be seen behind the closer man's knee.

The reason for one man's coat appearing lighter in one image over another is due to the angle of reflection of the sun's light. There are numerous instances in the Willis photo alone that demonstrates how dark clothing looks light where the suns light is shining down upon it. In real life it would not have looked so different, but on film is another matter altogether.

Hudson in Willis is NOT looking at the limo. This is shown by BM's analysis quoted above.

This analysis leads to unexpected consequences:

(RSM =Red Shirt Man)

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Hudson is saying that "young fellow" stood next to him from the time the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm until the second shot.

But the man standing next to Hudson in Moorman ran away in seconds after the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Hudson is saying that after the man ran up the stairs the "young fellow" (RSM), who had stood with him since the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, told him to lie down.

This means that the photographic evidence does not agree or comport with Hudson's testimony. It contradicts Hudson.

Miller's explanation for this is that Hudson became confused & imagined that, when the the man ran up the stairs & was replaced by RSM,... that RSM was the man who ran away & had been by him all the while. One man became another man in Hudson's mind: a doppelgänger.

Miller is saying, therefore, that Hudson had a very powerful hallucination.

Very good. This renders Hudson unreliable & not credible & so vitiates Hudson's testimony as valid.

This appalling development was noticed by Ken, who realized that the only remotely plausible scenario was that "run-away-man" dashed to safety behind the retaining wall & then comically shouted in a huge, stentorian voice instructions to Hudson.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time,

Hudson means the "young fellow" who had sat with him & stood with him during the period of time that Husdon is recalling, which period of time Hudson calls the "present time," SAYS to him at the time of the third shot: "Lay down."

Hudson uses the verb "SAYS," not shouts not yells not screams. This clearly means that the person who says to Hudson "Lay down, lay down'' is a person who is close enough to Hudson to be heard in the din of the passing motorcade by means of a volume level & loudness of tone which is below that of someone yelling or shouting.

The only person who could SAY this was RSM.

he says,

Hudson uses the verb: says.

"lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President."

Hudson's use of the word "Mister" is significant. Why? Would the man who had run up the stairs (to allegedly lie down on the sidewalk behind the retaining wall) have looked to see Hudson & RSM, practically in one another's arms, and have called out to them: "Lay down, Mister?'' Why warn only one to lie down & not the other?

But, if RSM was saying this, then, of course, since he was addressing only one man as the other had run away, he would naturally say to Hudson: "Lay down, Mister (singular)."

He says,

Again, Hudson uses SAYS,

"Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down."

Hudson says that the "young man" kept repeating "Lay down." Hudson indicates that a length of time passes while this repeating goes on. During this time Hudson receives these warnings. Hudson explains that he then does something for certain reasons. What are these reasons? First Hudson explains that the "young man is already lying ONE WAYon the sidewalk.

so

So. Hudson uses this conjunction "so" to indicate connection & causation. (He did this, so I did this.)

he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk,

Hudson explains.

so

So. Hudson uses this conjunction "so" to indicate connection & causation. (He did this, so I did this.)

I just laid down over on the ground

Hudson is saying that the reason he lay on the GROUND was because the "young fellow" had already laid down on the sidewalk ONE WAY and there was NO ROOM there for Hudson to lie down THERE. Hudson explains that he had to lie down on the ground, he had no other choice.

Hudson is trying to explain his actions & movements so that it is clear to LIEBELER why he, Hudson, could apprehend & judge the origin & direction of the third shot. He is answering the question put to him by LIEBELER, and, since Hudson grasps the great importance of the question, Hudson is attempting to be as clear as he can be.

and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

So, a close study of Hudson's exact words leads to the conclusion that Hudson meant that RSM warned him to "lay down."

The possibility that "run-away-man" so warned Hudson is eliminated. QED

Edit: spelling

Miles - I will tell you 2 interesting things in addition to what you have pointed out.

The first, why isn't 'red shirt man' Hudsons 'young man?'

Now if you compare different versions of the Moorman, you get a much different appearance of this man. The difference is worth remarking, as I believe it sets the standard for the authenticity of the photo - eg, less alteration than not.

So - for example, if we look at early copies of the Moorman - like the Zippo, or the Fort Worth Press copy - I'd pick the young man as the 'Red Shirt Man' every time.

Second, I was admittedly thrown off for sometime by the appearance of what looked like 3 individuals behind the fence. Tried to make the case for it - using Hoffman and Bowers. Neither saw 3 - multiple issues, etc. On individual that studied it with me suggested that they resembled cartoons. Another was skeptical if it was added in after-the-fact or not. No one thought we were examining artifacts - this was the 'drumscan' copy.

Now the interesting part about the mighty 'Drumscan' copy:

a. The young man on the stairs does look like he does in the early Moorman - he looks older.

b. It contains these characters behind the fence, and

c. The man squatting on the stairs is simply not present - although he does appear in the Fort Worth Press photo.

Much lower level of confidence in the characters seen behind the fence in the drumscan Moorman. Much higher for the man on the stairs, based upon a lot of additional information and inconsistencies.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

I was originally intending to use this thread only to secure some reasonable semblance on timing. However, looks like a good place for a data dump to me.

The scenario, as it appears to me, is as follows:

A man, most likely Mob connected, possibly Cuban exile, watched the Motorcade from behind cover of the retaining wall - although Wikipedia accepts as fact the Thompson interview of Sitzman - there is not other proof of any kind of any black couple seated on the bench behind the retaining wall tossing bottles and running. No other witness account, no film or photographic evidence. And this is a moot point - as I have heard 'alleged' accounts of some black couple that were too scared to come forward - meaningless.

Upon examination of the various films and photographs available - using the alleged 'facts' in the case - there is no time for the third man to emerge and take his place next to Hudson. Hudson's account is rife with conflicts with regard to the official 'record' - this too must be taken with a grain of salt, since the 'evidence' is clearly tampered with and in control of individuals who sought to cover up the truth of the matter. The 'big lie' as I will always call it, appears to me to have taken place in this area - which unfortunately does not provide much room for Gordon Arnold.

The individual seen in the Bentzner and Willis photos known as Black Dog Man has time enough to move from his location at z186, continue on his way at z202 and arrive in position on the stairs in the Moorman by z315. He also can take one shot, and immediately make an exit - as per the timing and evidence in the Nix film. What happens to him next is a mystery. Is he the same man seen running by JC Price? Likely - but unknown. Is he responsible somehow for the pool of blood? Likely but unknown. Why is BDM colored the way that he is? Is it consistent in any way with the rest of the photo? I would say no - which is already telling.

What could be considered the height of irony is that there would have been no need for this shot - since Kennedy had already received a mortal wound from the rear. However, this shot from the front would have followed the shot from the rear by some 0.43715847 of a second - if we use the removal of 8 frames of the Zapruder film at 18.3fps.

The obvious question: Why did no one see this occur? The obvious answer, in 4 parts:

1. All eyes were focused on the President.

2. Some folks did see something, but were ridiculed, repressed, intimidated, etc., into indicating something confusing for the 'official' record.

3. Who are you asking? SOB man remains unidentified. As does the couple on the triangle, the young man with Hudson, the blond woman [maybe Peggy Burney] nearby, DCM, BDM, the alleged 'Black couple behind the retaining wall,' the men seen running in the z-frames, the individuals in vehicles across the plaza seen in the Cancellare, etc., etc., etc. etc. It would be interesting just to get some stats on how many possible witnesses there could have been vs how many there were - for this location. And quite frankly - if Beverly Oliver was Babushka Lady - she should be called on the carpet here - as this is the major reason for why I believe she is full of crap - since Babushka is clearly watching everything that transpired in this location.

4. When the elephants dance - get out of the way. And if Hoover isn't a big enough Elephant for you, Bull Johnson the scumbag should have been. And if that doesn't work for you, there was always the cleaners.

Another interesting take I have heard too many times - Well, if the mob had been involved, it wouldn't have made sense that they had long range sharp shooters handling the hit? They are known for doing short range, up-close-and-personal type of hits. Exactly. Leave nothing to chance.

Still to come - how weak the job was on the 'Phantom' or, the third man added to the stairs to create the plausible appearance of a third man having been on the stairs that turned and ran and was 100% benign - to cover up what actually transpired in this location with respect to a hitter taking a shot.

- lee

[Chris Davidson]

Hudson's account is rife with conflicts with regard to the official 'record' - this too must be taken with a grain of salt, since the 'evidence' is clearly tampered with and in control of individuals who sought to cover up the truth of the matter.

Lee,

Glad you pointed this out.

Once again, here is Hudson stabilized in Muchmore ( I believe I missed a few frames).

Hudson(Hill and Moorman on the opposite side) is the only one that does NOT react.

Yet, approx 5 seconds later, Hudson is still standing,turning towards the top of the stairs.

If Hudson didn't react to the 313 headshot, what is he reacting to some 5 sec. later. Shots have long passed, supposedly.

My goodness, if this isn't the mightiest of delayed reactions, I don't know what is.

Yes, something stinks.

chris

[Don Bailey]

What has always made sense to me is that Hudson is the Red Shirt Man… when you read the testimony from Hudson it only makes sense that he’s the RSM. The Old Man Tramp (Hunt) has the attire and looks as the man standing next to Lawrence in the Moorman photo… Lawrence worked on Industrial… Hudson (RSM) was sitting with Lawrence before the parade.

[Michael G. Smith]

Fwiw, from what I can make of this is, that the Willis photo shows only one man on the top step, not two. [sorry Bill], two men do not line up exactly like that without there being very obvious differences seen, such as the thickness of bodies, etc... ,and the "RSM" on the lower step. Now as far as the position of the limo, the other "young man" would have had to be getting to the steps pretty quickly to be there by the time the limo got to the position he is seen there with the other two. Can you say running? And be there looking comfortable? As far as the man being "BDM", I dont think it is, as the young man is wearing light colored clothing, as BDM is basically seen in dark clothing. He also would have had to be really hoofing it to be there in the amount of time before the limo got there. Lee is working hard at this angle and any help from anyone who has any info/material should come forward at this time and help out, as I truly believe that this is where the action took place, not to mention behind the fence. There are too many discrepancys to dismiss. Especially Hudsons testimony! I would like to see some photos posted of Hudson laying down, and the other fellow also down on the ground, as Hudson stated. Either Hudson was totally out of it, and made up most of his testimony, or there were definate problems going on there. The whole "step, walkway" area was full of action within a matter of seconds. The blood is a definate. Someone was hit. If someone else was just injured, we would have known about it, one way or another. whoever was "hit", kept going and was heading out of town. The problem I do have with the pool, is that to bleed that much, you would have had to be there for some bit of time. if your running and get hit, you dont bleed that much in passing. So what explains that? They would have had to have gone down, or just stood there and bled out. Someone had to have seen something go down there as far as a bleeder. Coley didnt lie, and they verified it was blood, and not anything else. Another point.....if Gordon Arnold was there [that is up in the air-personally I am not convinced of that one] he would have had something to say about it, as he was right there in that exact area. All you hear from him is what happened to him, and not a peep about anythng else that occured in that immediate vacinity concerning someone going down or appearing to have been shot or knifed. Now either he wasnt there or he is blind. I tend to belive the first. Why would he clam up about all of the action going on surrounding him, especially when it involved people running, blood on the walk, etc.... . Doesnt make sense to not come forward with that info. Lee, keep up the good my man. Forget your detractors, you are on to a good point, and Im sure more info/material will be forthcoming. -smitty

[Lee Forman]

Fwiw, from what I can make of this is, that the Willis photo shows only one man on the top step, not two. [sorry Bill], two men do not line up exactly like that without there being very obvious differences seen, such as the thickness of bodies, etc... ,and the "RSM" on the lower step. Now as far as the position of the limo, the other "young man" would have had to be getting to the steps pretty quickly to be there by the time the limo got to the position he is seen there with the other two. Can you say running? And be there looking comfortable? As far as the man being "BDM", I dont think it is, as the young man is wearing light colored clothing, as BDM is basically seen in dark clothing. He also would have had to be really hoofing it to be there in the amount of time before the limo got there. Lee is working hard at this angle and any help from anyone who has any info/material should come forward at this time and help out, as I truly believe that this is where the action took place, not to mention behind the fence. There are too many discrepancys to dismiss. Especially Hudsons testimony! I would like to see some photos posted of Hudson laying down, and the other fellow also down on the ground, as Hudson stated. Either Hudson was totally out of it, and made up most of his testimony, or there were definate problems going on there. The whole "step, walkway" area was full of action within a matter of seconds. The blood is a definate. Someone was hit. If someone else was just injured, we would have known about it, one way or another. whoever was "hit", kept going and was heading out of town. The problem I do have with the pool, is that to bleed that much, you would have had to be there for some bit of time. if your running and get hit, you dont bleed that much in passing. So what explains that? They would have had to have gone down, or just stood there and bled out. Someone had to have seen something go down there as far as a bleeder. Coley didnt lie, and they verified it was blood, and not anything else. Another point.....if Gordon Arnold was there [that is up in the air-personally I am not convinced of that one] he would have had something to say about it, as he was right there in that exact area. All you hear from him is what happened to him, and not a peep about anythng else that occured in that immediate vacinity concerning someone going down or appearing to have been shot or knifed. Now either he wasnt there or he is blind. I tend to belive the first. Why would he clam up about all of the action going on surrounding him, especially when it involved people running, blood on the walk, etc.... . Doesnt make sense to not come forward with that info. Lee, keep up the good my man. Forget your detractors, you are on to a good point, and Im sure more info/material will be forthcoming. -smitty

Thanks Smitty.

I paid a lot of money to some clown once who said knifing. I found him so unreliable, that I didn't mention it. I mention it with that caveat, because I have heard knifing from another more reliable quarter - but it's difficult to tell with what we have to work with. I'd like to know who the special person was that was checked in to Parkland during Kennedy's visit.

Check out Hargis' reaction. More on Hargis at a later time. I used to think that the reason for the thumbprint on the Moorman polaroid was actually a simple matter of deflecting the obvious - Hargis is staring at the guy on the stairs. Shoot! Being forced to cut it down to load it. Here we go...

- lee

[Lee Forman]

What has always made sense to me is that Hudson is the Red Shirt Man… when you read the testimony from Hudson it only makes sense that he’s the RSM. The Old Man Tramp (Hunt) has the attire and looks as the man standing next to Lawrence in the Moorman photo… Lawrence worked on Industrial… Hudson (RSM) was sitting with Lawrence before the parade.

You say it with such conviction Don. I didn't know that this was open to debate.

You could always contact Lawrence and ask him though?

http://www.abneystreetchurch.org/site/

Edit: If you do contact him [as a man of God I would image he would welcome your questions], would you mind asking one question before raising him as a possible for the stairs? Just simply ask why he believes Chuck Giancana would state that Momo used his name as being one of the peripheral mob contract players in the assassination, as published in 'Double Cross.' Thanks.

- lee

Edited April 13, 2008 by Lee Forman

[Lee Forman]

Hudson's account is rife with conflicts with regard to the official 'record' - this too must be taken with a grain of salt, since the 'evidence' is clearly tampered with and in control of individuals who sought to cover up the truth of the matter.

Lee,

Glad you pointed this out.

Once again, here is Hudson stabilized in Muchmore ( I believe I missed a few frames).

Hudson(Hill and Moorman on the opposite side) is the only one that does NOT react.

Yet, approx 5 seconds later, Hudson is still standing,turning towards the top of the stairs.

If Hudson didn't react to the 313 headshot, what is he reacting to some 5 sec. later. Shots have long passed, supposedly.

My goodness, if this isn't the mightiest of delayed reactions, I don't know what is.

Yes, something stinks.

chris

NICE work Chris!

Here we go with another problem - take a look at the stabilized Nix I loaded - or if you have a better one - that would be preferred! Note the shadows - length and direction. So what is creating the bizarre shadows in the steps that we see in the Muchmore? How come these don't appear consistent with what we see in Nix?

Edit: I think I partially answered my own question. The young man is actually shuffling his way to the right, following along with the Lincoln. I had never noticed that before your gif. Very interesting. Still should look closely at the shadows being cast by Hudson and the man I believe to be bogus. And you're right - what is up with Hudson? Never noticed that before either.

- lee

Edited April 13, 2008 by Lee Forman

[Chris Davidson]

The insert is unaltered, while the enlargement has been enhanced.

Description of body parts(or lack of) that might cast those shadows.

Red shirt man with half a foot.

Runaway man with a white (right footed) sneaker.

Hudson with a suspicious right arm.

No wonder why the shadows are whacky.

chris