SouthPaw

[David G. Healy]

[...]

For your information:

Gary;

I am of course aware of the photograph(s) which demonstrate LHO holding the rigle and firing from the right shoulder.

Which merely means that a photo was taken of him being properly positioned by the Gunnery/Firing Range Instructor.

It neither indicates/confirms that LHO was right handed, nor does it provide sufficient evidentiary fact to establish eye dominance.

And, as I long ago stated, many "Southpaw" shooter were required to fire the M-1 Garand right handed, even though they may in fact be left handed.

This was due to the ejection pattern of the M-1 in which a left handed shooter could end up with a hot, empty shell casing being ejected out of the rifle and into the right eye of the shooter.

There exists more than sufficient evidence to indicate that LHO was at least, ambidextrous, and quite possibly fully "Left eye Dominant".

[...]

Tom

From experience (as a left-handed shooter and left eye dominant) with the M1 during ARMY boot-camp at Fort Ord, Ca., in the summer of 1962. Three in our BCT (Basic Combat Training) platoon were left handed, NONE were forced to shoot right handed, or, for that matter, "pose for range photos" (which I find strange, cameras were never allowed on ANY of the ranges). September of 1962 found new M14's put into service for Advance Infantry Training (AIT), all three lefties, as known, shot EXPERT with both the M1 and the M14. Never a word about converting to "right-handed" shooting, not even a joke. I (nor to the best of my knowledge the other two "lefties" in my platoon) ever experienced hot brass in the face (or eye) with the M1, or the M14...

The (gas operated) bolt and thumbs, another story...

Edited July 22, 2008 by David G. Healy

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom-

I have several random questions and comments, so I will number them for your ease in responding.

1. The fact that a weapons instructor can pull of rapid working of a carcano bolt action and re-sighting for the next shot doesn't mean that most of us mortals can, at least not without a lot of practice. I have never attempted this, because I don't own a bolt action rifle, but I will borrow one sometime and give it a try. It may be easy, I just don't know, but I have seen expert marksmen pull off amazing displays of rapid fire shooting which are beyond someone like myself.

2. I have never heard of a scope mounted to the left side to accomodate a right handed, left eye dominant shooters. As someone who is severely afflicted with this curse, I have shot semi-auto rifles with my left eye closed, albeit with modest success. Even if a shooter is right handed, left eye dominant, however, I think that learning to shoot a bolt action rifle (as opposed to an AR-15, for example) with a scope and with the left eye closed would not be difficult to accomplish.

3. Was the scope on the Carcano just a little off center and to the left, or did it appear to be fitted to a left eye dominant right handed shooter?

4. What was the barrel length on the Carcano recovered from (or planted at) the scene? The pictures that I have scene of the rifle appear to have the barrel sawed off, to some extent, as you have noted in the WC transcript, but what was the actual sawed off length? The reason that I ask is that I perceive the barrel length of a Mauser K-98 (740 mm) to be considerably longer than that of the rifle taken into evidence from the 6th floor of TSBD. If I am correct, then it seems implausible to me that one or more law enforcement personnel mistakenly describe a chopped down Carcano as a Mauser. They may have the same or a similar bolt action (since the Mauser K98 action is copied even today), but they sure don't look the same to me.

Chris

1. The fact that a weapons instructor can pull of rapid working of a carcano bolt action and re-sighting for the next shot doesn't mean that most of us mortals can, at least not without a lot of practice. I have never attempted this, because I don't own a bolt action rifle, but I will borrow one sometime and give it a try. It may be easy, I just don't know, but I have seen expert marksmen pull off amazing displays of rapid fire shooting which are beyond someone like myself.

Although Massad Ayoob is certainly a "Weapons Instructor", he was not one of the "Southpaws" who managed to operate and fire the Carcano in less than 1.6 seconds.

The "Second Chance Shoot" is/was an annual event, and the Carcano experiment held in 1992 was open to volunteers at the event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chance_(body_armor)

The event was begun by Richard Davis of the above.

Multitudes of persons have operated and fired the Carcano in less time than the WC's 2.3/2.4 seconds of time.

To include JFK researcher & Chiropracter by profession, Chad Zimmerman. I have heard about this.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/simmons.htm

Specialist Miller used 4.6 seconds on his first attempt, 5.15 seconds in his second attempt, and 4.45 seconds in his exercise using the iron sight.

Mr. EISENBERG. How much practice had they had with the weapon, Exhibit 139, before they began firing?

Mr. SIMMONS. They had each attempted the exercise without the use of ammunition, and had worked the bolt as they tried the exercise. They had not pulled the trigger during the exercise, however, because we were a little concerned about breaking the firing pin.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us an estimate of how much time they used in this dry-run practice, each?

Mr. SIMMONS. They used no more than 2 or 3 minutes each.

Tom- Were any of these people right eye dominant, left handed?

2. I have never heard of a scope mounted to the left side to accomodate a right handed, left eye dominant shooters. As someone who is severely afflicted with this curse, I have shot semi-auto rifles with my left eye closed, albeit with modest success. Even if a shooter is right handed, left eye dominant, however, I think that learning to shoot a bolt action rifle (as opposed to an AR-15, for example) with a scope and with the left eye closed would not be difficult to accomplish.

It would be assumed that you are familiar with the left-handed bolt action rifles which are made by a few manufacturer's for the strictly left-handed/left eyed shooters. I am familier with these, but they don't interest me.

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/rifles-42/14725...bolt-rifle.html

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?p=401847

The advantages of the "left-side" mounted scope for a right-handed/left eye dominant shooter, is something which has been known by those who instruct rifle accuracy, for many years. This sounds intriguing. Thanks for the article.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/1916bs...mount/index.asp

3. Was the scope on the Carcano just a little off center and to the left, or did it appear to be fitted to a left eye dominant right handed shooter?

It was mounted in the exact same position as Klein's mounts their scopes, it was not "off center". Thanks.

However, those who attempted to shoot (right-handed/right-eyed), had trouble getting the crosshairs to align on target.

Guess What?

4. What was the barrel length on the Carcano recovered from (or planted at) the scene? The pictures that I have scene of the rifle appear to have the barrel sawed off, to some extent, as you have noted in the WC transcript, but what was the actual sawed off length? The reason that I ask is that I perceive the barrel length of a Mauser K-98 (740 mm) to be considerably longer than that of the rifle taken into evidence from the 6th floor of TSBD. If I am correct, then it seems implausible to me that one or more law enforcement personnel mistakenly describe a chopped down Carcano as a Mauser. They may have the same or a similar bolt action (since the Mauser K98 action is copied even today), but they sure don't look the same to me.

1. Since of the shots fired, two of the bullets have been ballistically matched to the Carcano found on the sixth floor, then one can chase mythological "planted" weapons if they so desire.

2. Secondly, the Carcano is in fact a model of the Mauser, and is in fact known as the Italian Mauser. I know the Carcano is a Mauser copy, as are many bolt action guns manufactured since 1898 (e.g. the Springfield 1903 A3). I just don't hear the copies referred to as Mausers.

3. Lastly, the recovered weapon was a Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle, and none of the barrel had been cut off. How many inches was the barrel on the recovered rifle?

How many inches was the barrel on the recovered rifle?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm

The barrel only is 21.18 inches.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/models.html

91/38 Fucile Corto 6.5x52 Carcano Fixed

200 7 lb. 7 oz. 53.8 101.8 Detachable/Folding

(53.8 cm barrel length X 0.39 = 20.982 inches.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just don't hear the copies referred to as Mausers. [/b]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcano

Although this rifle is often called "Mannlicher-Carcano" especially in US parlance, that name was never official, as little as the even less correct moniker "Mauser-Parravicino."

The name Mannlicher-Carcano is also misleading because the rifle's bolt action was based on a German Mauser-style bolt action, not the Austrian Mannlicher-style

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/models.html

There are also late war official German 8x57 IS conversions, undertaken as an emergency measure for the Volkssturm in both magazine and single-shot configurations (Heinrich Krieghoff branch factory in Tyrol). These are very rare, and must not be confused by the much more commonly offered following variant:

Some Moschetti TS M38 were chambered for the 7,92x57 Mauser (aka 7,9x57 Mauser; 8 x 57 IS; 8mm Mauser). We call them "M38 S" here, because they usually bear a large "S" mark on the receiver, and often also on the bolt handle; their receiver breech end has a half-moon cut to accomodate for the longer 8 x 57 IS cartridges (just as with the Norvegian Kar 98k converted to .30-06, and the Turkish M 1903/38 conversions).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The advantages of the "left-side" mounted scope for a right-handed/left eye dominant shooter, is something which has been known by those who instruct rifle accuracy, for many years. This sounds intriguing. Thanks for the article.

http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/binocular...cular/index.htm

“...if you are left eye dominant (and about 35% of people are), and right handed

(about 90% of people are), your gun most likely will not end up being in line with your

aim point. Or if you are left handed (and 10% of people are), and right eyed (about 65% of

people are), your gun most likely will not end up being in line with the aim point. In short,

there are substantial numbers of people who are NOT right eyed and right handed, or

left-eyed and left-handed, and "traditional shooting stances and techniques" do little to help them.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Christopher Hall]

Tom-

I have several random questions and comments, so I will number them for your ease in responding.

1. The fact that a weapons instructor can pull of rapid working of a carcano bolt action and re-sighting for the next shot doesn't mean that most of us mortals can, at least not without a lot of practice. I have never attempted this, because I don't own a bolt action rifle, but I will borrow one sometime and give it a try. It may be easy, I just don't know, but I have seen expert marksmen pull off amazing displays of rapid fire shooting which are beyond someone like myself.

2. I have never heard of a scope mounted to the left side to accomodate a right handed, left eye dominant shooters. As someone who is severely afflicted with this curse, I have shot semi-auto rifles with my left eye closed, albeit with modest success. Even if a shooter is right handed, left eye dominant, however, I think that learning to shoot a bolt action rifle (as opposed to an AR-15, for example) with a scope and with the left eye closed would not be difficult to accomplish.

3. Was the scope on the Carcano just a little off center and to the left, or did it appear to be fitted to a left eye dominant right handed shooter?

4. What was the barrel length on the Carcano recovered from (or planted at) the scene? The pictures that I have scene of the rifle appear to have the barrel sawed off, to some extent, as you have noted in the WC transcript, but what was the actual sawed off length? The reason that I ask is that I perceive the barrel length of a Mauser K-98 (740 mm) to be considerably longer than that of the rifle taken into evidence from the 6th floor of TSBD. If I am correct, then it seems implausible to me that one or more law enforcement personnel mistakenly describe a chopped down Carcano as a Mauser. They may have the same or a similar bolt action (since the Mauser K98 action is copied even today), but they sure don't look the same to me.

Chris

1. The fact that a weapons instructor can pull of rapid working of a carcano bolt action and re-sighting for the next shot doesn't mean that most of us mortals can, at least not without a lot of practice. I have never attempted this, because I don't own a bolt action rifle, but I will borrow one sometime and give it a try. It may be easy, I just don't know, but I have seen expert marksmen pull off amazing displays of rapid fire shooting which are beyond someone like myself.

Although Massad Ayoob is certainly a "Weapons Instructor", he was not one of the "Southpaws" who managed to operate and fire the Carcano in less than 1.6 seconds.

The "Second Chance Shoot" is/was an annual event, and the Carcano experiment held in 1992 was open to volunteers at the event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chance_(body_armor)

The event was begun by Richard Davis of the above.

Multitudes of persons have operated and fired the Carcano in less time than the WC's 2.3/2.4 seconds of time.

To include JFK researcher & Chiropracter by profession, Chad Zimmerman. I have heard about this.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/simmons.htm

Specialist Miller used 4.6 seconds on his first attempt, 5.15 seconds in his second attempt, and 4.45 seconds in his exercise using the iron sight.

Mr. EISENBERG. How much practice had they had with the weapon, Exhibit 139, before they began firing?

Mr. SIMMONS. They had each attempted the exercise without the use of ammunition, and had worked the bolt as they tried the exercise. They had not pulled the trigger during the exercise, however, because we were a little concerned about breaking the firing pin.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us an estimate of how much time they used in this dry-run practice, each?

Mr. SIMMONS. They used no more than 2 or 3 minutes each.

Tom- Were any of these people right eye dominant, left handed?

2. I have never heard of a scope mounted to the left side to accomodate a right handed, left eye dominant shooters. As someone who is severely afflicted with this curse, I have shot semi-auto rifles with my left eye closed, albeit with modest success. Even if a shooter is right handed, left eye dominant, however, I think that learning to shoot a bolt action rifle (as opposed to an AR-15, for example) with a scope and with the left eye closed would not be difficult to accomplish.

It would be assumed that you are familiar with the left-handed bolt action rifles which are made by a few manufacturer's for the strictly left-handed/left eyed shooters. I am familier with these, but they don't interest me.

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/rifles-42/14725...bolt-rifle.html

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?p=401847

The advantages of the "left-side" mounted scope for a right-handed/left eye dominant shooter, is something which has been known by those who instruct rifle accuracy, for many years. This sounds intriguing. Thanks for the article.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/1916bs...mount/index.asp

3. Was the scope on the Carcano just a little off center and to the left, or did it appear to be fitted to a left eye dominant right handed shooter?

It was mounted in the exact same position as Klein's mounts their scopes, it was not "off center". Thanks.

However, those who attempted to shoot (right-handed/right-eyed), had trouble getting the crosshairs to align on target.

Guess What?

4. What was the barrel length on the Carcano recovered from (or planted at) the scene? The pictures that I have scene of the rifle appear to have the barrel sawed off, to some extent, as you have noted in the WC transcript, but what was the actual sawed off length? The reason that I ask is that I perceive the barrel length of a Mauser K-98 (740 mm) to be considerably longer than that of the rifle taken into evidence from the 6th floor of TSBD. If I am correct, then it seems implausible to me that one or more law enforcement personnel mistakenly describe a chopped down Carcano as a Mauser. They may have the same or a similar bolt action (since the Mauser K98 action is copied even today), but they sure don't look the same to me.

1. Since of the shots fired, two of the bullets have been ballistically matched to the Carcano found on the sixth floor, then one can chase mythological "planted" weapons if they so desire.

2. Secondly, the Carcano is in fact a model of the Mauser, and is in fact known as the Italian Mauser. I know the Carcano is a Mauser copy, as are many bolt action guns manufactured since 1898 (e.g. the Springfield 1903 A3). I just don't hear the copies referred to as Mausers.

3. Lastly, the recovered weapon was a Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle, and none of the barrel had been cut off. How many inches was the barrel on the recovered rifle?

How many inches was the barrel on the recovered rifle?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm

The barrel only is 21.18 inches.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/models.html

91/38 Fucile Corto 6.5x52 Carcano Fixed

200 7 lb. 7 oz. 53.8 101.8 Detachable/Folding

(53.8 cm barrel length X 0.39 = 20.982 inches.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just don't hear the copies referred to as Mausers. [/b]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcano

Although this rifle is often called "Mannlicher-Carcano" especially in US parlance, that name was never official, as little as the even less correct moniker "Mauser-Parravicino."

The name Mannlicher-Carcano is also misleading because the rifle's bolt action was based on a German Mauser-style bolt action, not the Austrian Mannlicher-style

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/models.html

There are also late war official German 8x57 IS conversions, undertaken as an emergency measure for the Volkssturm in both magazine and single-shot configurations (Heinrich Krieghoff branch factory in Tyrol). These are very rare, and must not be confused by the much more commonly offered following variant:

Some Moschetti TS M38 were chambered for the 7,92x57 Mauser (aka 7,9x57 Mauser; 8 x 57 IS; 8mm Mauser). We call them "M38 S" here, because they usually bear a large "S" mark on the receiver, and often also on the bolt handle; their receiver breech end has a half-moon cut to accomodate for the longer 8 x 57 IS cartridges (just as with the Norvegian Kar 98k converted to .30-06, and the Turkish M 1903/38 conversions).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The advantages of the "left-side" mounted scope for a right-handed/left eye dominant shooter, is something which has been known by those who instruct rifle accuracy, for many years. This sounds intriguing. Thanks for the article.

http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/binocular...cular/index.htm

“...if you are left eye dominant (and about 35% of people are), and right handed

(about 90% of people are), your gun most likely will not end up being in line with your

aim point. Or if you are left handed (and 10% of people are), and right eyed (about 65% of

people are), your gun most likely will not end up being in line with the aim point. In short,

there are substantial numbers of people who are NOT right eyed and right handed, or

left-eyed and left-handed, and "traditional shooting stances and techniques" do little to help them.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks again, Tom.

I may try to contact Hockheim.

Chris

Edited July 22, 2008 by Christopher Hall