Det. Paul Bentley

[Steve Thomas]

Antti,

Steve & J,

I have a slightly different section of testimony by Det. Guy F. Rose, of the DPD. He is asking Oswald about his name (Hidell vs. Oswald), and he replies: "You find out."

Good catch.

Also from my memory (so, this is definitely not a worth 2 cents, but here goes): Det. Jim Leavelle, recalls the Oswald interrogation on the "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" -series (done in the 1980's, I guess) and says along the lines that: "When we asked Oswald whether his name was "Hidell" or "Oswald" he replied: "You're the cop, you figure it out.""

Yeah, well, I'll take what Leavelle says with a grain of salt.

Back on April 7, 1964, under questioning about the activities of November 24th, Leavelle told the WC this:

Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of the conversation?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I did not myself. That was the only time I ever sat in on the interrogations of him by Captain Fritz or anyone.

Mr. BALL. Is that the first time you had seen Oswald?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had seen him, of course, the first day he was arrested and when they brought him in and out of the office taking him to and from the jail and, of course, I had saw him at the showups, what-have-you.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever talked to him before?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had never talked to him before.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/leave_j1.htm

This is what he told the Texas Monthly magazine in 1998:

, ”I talked to him, yeah, about 10, maybe 15 minutes one-on-one before Captain Fritz and the other officers came back from the book depository, preparatory to going look for him, and found out he was already there. When the Captain came in and asked me what his name was, and I told him, he asked me where he worked, and he said the book depository, he said, 'You're the one I want to talk to.' So, in essence, they took my prisoner away. I lost my prisoner. He and Chief Charles of the Secret Service.”

(I emailed him and he told me that he said Chief Sorrells, not Charles)

Steve Thomas

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Mr. BALL. Had you ever talked to him before [before Nov. 24th]?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had never talked to him before.

This is what he told the Texas Monthly magazine in 1998:

”I talked to him, yeah, about 10, maybe 15 minutes one-on-one before Captain Fritz and the other officers came back from the book depository,

Steve Thomas

Warren Report page 179-180

At 1:51 p.m., police car 2 reported by radio that it was on the way to headquarters with the suspect.664

Captain Fritz returned to police headquarters from the Texas School Book Depositoryat 2:15 after a brief stop at the sheriff's office.665 When he entered the homicide and robbery bureau office, he saw two detectives standing there with Sgt. Gerald L. Hill, who had driven from the theatre with Oswald.666 Hill testified that Fritz told the detective to get a search warrant, go to an address on Fifth Street in Irving, and pick up a man named Lee Oswald. When Hill asked why Oswald was wanted, Fritz replied, "Well, he was employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a roll call of the employees." 667 Hill said, "Captain, we will save you a trip * * * there he sits." 668

The indications are that the drive to City hall was conducted at high speed -- Captain Westbrook'r report in CE2003 says that he "ordered the arresting officers to remove the suspect to the City Hall WITH ALL POSSIBLE SPEED and this was done."

I do not know how long it took to reach City Hall -- my guess is about 10 minutes at high speed -- so it may be possible that Leavelle DID have time for a 10-minute conversation, but where was Hill during Leavelle's one-on-one? According to Hill, he was with the suspect until Fritz took over.

It sounds as though, as the years went by, Leavelle began adopting Hill's story as his own. I don't have Dale Myer's book at hand, but I think Leavelle told a similar story to Dale Myers. Even in his later story, however, Leavelle makes it clear that the suspect denied shooting anybody.

In another thread recently Pat Speer came across a similar instance involving witness Harold Norman. It seems that, over time, Norman adopted the story of another witness as his own. In Daniel Shacter's book The Seven Sins of Memory, he labels this phenomenon Misattribution.

It seems that something similar may have happened to Bentley's memory as the years went by, and he adopted something Guy Rose said about the suspect's address as if it happened to him during that high-speed car ride.

[Duke Lane]

... I do not know how long it took to reach City Hall -- my guess is about 10 minutes at high speed -- so it may be possible that Leavelle DID have time for a 10-minute conversation, but where was Hill during Leavelle's one-on-one? According to Hill, he was with the suspect until Fritz took over.

A couple of things here.

First is that, according to Jerry Hill, they left the theater, went around the block (east on Sunset) to Zangs, and north on Zangs. Thereafter, there's no discussion of how they got to City Hall. Taking the most direct route (according to Google Maps), 13 minutes to cover about 4 miles at "regular speed." I've found Google's time estimates to be on the high side, for example Tippit's drive from Kiest and Bonnie View to 8th and Lancaster is estimated at 11 minutes; I've done it numerous times - at the speed limit - in eight.

At 30 mph - slower than the speed limit ... and Hill did say, "we got the suspect to the city hall as rapidly as possible without using the siren and red light, but we took advantage of every open spot we had to make a little speed," suggesting speeds higher than that - it would take just eight minutes to cover four miles, plus time for red lights, etc.

Hill's narrative (his testimony was not taken in the usual question-and-answer fashion) regarding their arrival at DPDHQ is:

[We] got him out on the third floor, walked him into the homicide and robbery office, placed him in the first interrogation room inside the homicide and robbery office, and left Officer Walker there with him.

At this point I stood in the door of the, or at the door of the room he was in.

Reporters wanted to see the pistol. I held it up to them but never relinquished control of it. I asked Baker at this time, who was Detective T. L. Baker, if he wanted the pistol, and he said, "No; hold on to it until later."

I explained to trim that this was the suspect on Tippit and did he want us to make up the arrest sheet, or would they make them up.

We were trying to get together to decide who was going to make the offense report and get all the little technicalities out of the way when a detective named Richard Stovall and another one, G. F. Rose, came up, and the four of us were standing when Captain Fritz walked in.

He walked up to Rose and Stovall and made the statement to them, "Go get a search warrant and go out to some address on Fifth Street," and I don't recall the actual street number, in Irving, and "pick up a man named Lee Oswald."

And I asked the captain why he wanted him, and he said, "Well, he was employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a roll call of the employees."

And we said, "Captain, we will save you a trip," or words to that effect, "Because there he sits."

And with that, we relinquished our prisoner to the homicide and robbery bureau, to Captain Fritz.

I don't know that he's unequivocal about standing "in the door of the, or at the door of the room he was in" throughout the entire period; it is merely where he was at that point in time. One imagines that, during the course of conversation, the men may have moved around a little - walked down the hall to an office, say, or just wandered a few yards away from the door - so the possibility exists of Leavelle's having ten minutes to talk with Oswald, but Leavelle himself denied it under oath, closer to the time of the actual event (or non-event) than the later interview.

This reminds me in a way of the "oral history" interview of Patrolman Smith, who was on the railroad tracks when the parade came through the plaza. In 1964, he testified that he'd gone to the north end of the bridge and then had done something else, I don't recall offhand what, but that he did not search the railroad yards or rail cars. For Larry Snead's No More Silence, he said that he spent about 15 minutes searching the railroad cars.

Who knows, maybe both are true: he didn't search them, but only for 15 minutes. Like Leavelle: he'd never spoken to Oswald before the interrogation with Fritz, but only for 10 minutes.

On a slightly different topic, someone had once remarked that, at the time, the two incidents - the JFK and JDT murders - were not connected. The response was to the effect that "a beginner cop would wonder about the connection as soon as the guy was brought in ... and perhaps while he was on the way." I said that, sure, it's a reasonable assumption, but only after the fact, when "blessed with 20/20 hindsight." That elicited a response, exclaiming "two highly significant shootings within 45 minutes and you thinking it's hindsight to wonder at the time if they were connected? And you're serious?????????"

Duh. All I've got to base that on is a guy who had been a cop for 14 years and a homicide dick for five, who said "at the time I didn't realize there was any connection between Oswald and the shooting of Tippit - or the one that they had arrested in the Texas Theatre for the killing of Tippit and the Presidential assassination. I thought it was two different things altogether."

Stupid me: I relied on the insight of an idiot! I wonder: was he serious?????????? And to think that they put this klutz on TV and treat him like some sort of expert! Sheesh! Sounds like the kind of guy who could accidentally shoot someone with an unloaded gun, and they gave him a badge! It's pointless to argue with an acknowledged expert, I guess, cuz you're never gonna be right unless you're singing the same song from the same hymnal.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

My deep thanks to Dave Perry, who has added the weight of his opinion to this dispute.

This is my most recent email to the New York Times Public Editor

Dear Mr. Hoyt: Further to my two previous email, an important expert on the case, Dave Perry, has now confirmed his agreement that

One indisputable fact about the case is that Lee Oswald never admitted killing ANYONE and further, that he POSITIVELY DENIED killing anyone AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY for as long as he was allowed to live."

THat is what the official record shows, and that is what Lee Oswald's widow and children have always been led to believe.

He was NEVER EVASIVE when confronted with this question, as the TImes would now have readers believe. We submit that a New York Times story about an IMPORTANT FACT concerning an important historical event should AT LEAST reflect what the official record shows.

I believe that Mr. Perry is re-stating a FACT that has never been publicly denied, to my knowledge, until the Times published its Obituary for Detective Bentley.

Sincerely,

[J. Raymond Carroll]

My thanks to Clark Hoyt, Public Editor at the New York Times which has today posted this correction to the Bentley obituary:

Correction: August 6, 2008

An obituary on July 25 about Paul Bentley, the Dallas police detective who helped arrest Lee Harvey Oswald after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, included incorrectly, without qualifying its source, a remark Mr. Bentley remembered hearing after the arrest. Many years later, Mr. Bentley told oral history interviewers that on the road to police headquarters with Oswald, after hearing police dispatchers say the man in custody was a prime suspect in the assassination of Kennedy, he asked Oswald, “Did you shoot President Kennedy?” and that Oswald replied, “You find out for yourself.” Mr. Bentley’s recollection is unsupported by other existing historical records. (emphasis added)

The obituary also described Mr. Bentley’s role in the arrest imprecisely. Mr. Bentley adjusted the handcuffs after Oswald complained they were too tight; he did not snap the handcuffs on. (Another officer had placed his handcuffs on Oswald moments earlier.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/25/us/25ben...amp;oref=slogin

Thanks also to Gary Mack, who alerted me to today's correction by the New York Times.

Folks at The Times are certainly entitled to their own opinions, but I think they now concede that they are not entitled to their own facts.

For the record, the FACTS are that

Lee Oswald never admitted killing ANYONE and further, that he POSITIVELY DENIED killing anyone AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY for as long as he was allowed to live. He was NEVER EVASIVE when confronted with this question, and the Times was WRONG to give readers a contrary impression.

[William Kelly]

Can anyone supply a transcript of Det. Paul Bentley's Oral History interview with the 6th Floor?

Thanks,

BK

[Steve Thomas]

Bill,

Can anyone supply a transcript of Det. Paul Bentley's Oral History interview with the 6th Floor?

Thanks,

BK

This isn't a transcript, but here's the interview.

http://www.jfk.org/go/collections/item-det...d=1994.007.0002

Steve Thomas

[William Kelly]

Bill,

Can anyone supply a transcript of Det. Paul Bentley's Oral History interview with the 6th Floor?

Thanks,

BK

This isn't a transcript, but here's the interview.

http://www.jfk.org/go/collections/item-det...d=1994.007.0002

Steve Thomas

Thanks Steve,

I wonder if the 6th Floor will ever get around to posting my Oral History interview with Bob Porter and Wes Wise? They sent me a copy of the tape and I already made a transcript of it.

When are they going to get around to interviewing Carl Mather and other important witnesses who were never questioned by anybody?

BK

[William Kelly]

Bill,

Can anyone supply a transcript of Det. Paul Bentley's Oral History interview with the 6th Floor?

Thanks,

BK

This isn't a transcript, but here's the interview.

http://www.jfk.org/go/collections/item-det...d=1994.007.0002

Steve Thomas

Thanks Steve,

I wonder if the 6th Floor will ever get around to posting my Oral History interview with Bob Porter and Wes Wise? They sent me a copy of the tape and I already made a transcript of it.

When are they going to get around to interviewing Carl Mather and other important witnesses who were never questioned by anybody?

BK

Why so they only post an excerpt of Wes Wise's oral history?

Why not post the entire transcript and the entire videotape?

And why not post all of their oral histories?

Why Gary?

Thanks,

Bill Kelly

[William Kelly]

Two days after the assassination Dallas Police Detective Paul Bentley received a letter

Robert D. Steel,

Commander, USNR-R

7960 June Lake Drive,

San Diego,

California.

Perhaps you are aware that ONI has quite a file on Oswald, which no doubt has been made available on the Washington level. If not, I am certain that this information can be obtained for you through our resident special agent in charge of the Dallas office, A. C. Sullivan, who is a wonderful agent, and whom I hope you know. As a personal friend, I congratulate you, wish you continued success, and pray that your guardian angel will remain close at hand and vigilant, always.

Robert D. Steel

Paul Bentley was the chief operator of the Dallas Police department's polygraph unit; A. C. Sullivan, full name - Arthur Carroll Sullivan, Jr., who was in ONI 27 years, and also worked for the FBI and as an investigator for the Dallas DA.

While the source of this document has been questioned, as it was not among the official Warren Commission or Dallas city records, it was located among the private papers of a former Dallas policeman.

Paul Bentley and Allan Sweatt headed up the Texas Association of Polygraph Examiners. Bentley was of Oswald's arresting officers, had searched Oswald's wallet on way back to station and in his report stated, "On the way to City Hall, I removed the subject's wallet and obtained his name." No mention of "Hidell” whatsoever. Ditto the other four cops in the car, who were never called to testify by Warren Commission.

[Duke Lane]

... Paul Bentley and Allan Sweatt headed up the Texas Association of Polygraph Examiners. Bentley was of Oswald's arresting officers, had searched Oswald's wallet on way back to station and in his report stated, "On the way to City Hall, I removed the subject's wallet and obtained his name." No mention of "Hidell” whatsoever. Ditto the other four cops in the car, who were never called to testify by Warren Commission.

Not so, not close: three out of five of them did.

They were: Det Bob K. Carroll, the driver, and Sgt. Jerry Hill (sitting next to Carroll in the middle of the front seat), and CT Walker (in the back seat).

K.E. Lyons, a patrolman working in plain clothes, was the other man in the front seat, while Bentley was in the back seat with Walker and Oswald; only they did not testify.

[William Kelly]

... Paul Bentley and Allan Sweatt headed up the Texas Association of Polygraph Examiners. Bentley was of Oswald's arresting officers, had searched Oswald's wallet on way back to station and in his report stated, "On the way to City Hall, I removed the subject's wallet and obtained his name." No mention of "Hidell” whatsoever. Ditto the other four cops in the car, who were never called to testify by Warren Commission.

Not so, not close: three out of five of them did.

They were: Det Bob K. Carroll, the driver, and Sgt. Jerry Hill (sitting next to Carroll in the middle of the front seat), and CT Walker (in the back seat).

K.E. Lyons, a patrolman working in plain clothes, was the other man in the front seat, while Bentley was in the back seat with Walker and Oswald; only they did not testify.

Hi Duke, what are you contesting here? Seating arrangements? Who testified? When you say "only they did not testify" who do you mean by "only they."

Thanks,

[Duke Lane]

Hi Duke, what are you contesting here? Seating arrangements? Who testified? When you say "only they did not testify" who do you mean by "only they."

Sorry, thought I was clear.

Five cops in the car, none of them mentioned the name "Hidell" or any alias or other name in reports, etc. No contest there.

As re: "the other four cops in the car, who were never called to testify by Warren Commission," three out of five of them DID testify (or more precisely, were deposed and under oath).

By "only they," I refer to the two people who were mentioned in that sentence, as in "they were the only ones who" or "they alone" did not testify.

The incorrect statement was that the other four cops in the car were not called to testify/depose. Bentley was not (or did not); three of the remaining four were and did.

[William Kelly]

Hi Duke, what are you contesting here? Seating arrangements? Who testified? When you say "only they did not testify" who do you mean by "only they."

Sorry, thought I was clear.

Five cops in the car, none of them mentioned the name "Hidell" or any alias or other name in reports, etc. No contest there.

As re: "the other four cops in the car, who were never called to testify by Warren Commission," three out of five of them DID testify (or more precisely, were deposed and under oath).

By "only they," I refer to the two people who were mentioned in that sentence, as in "they were the only ones who" or "they alone" did not testify.

The incorrect statement was that the other four cops in the car were not called to testify/depose. Bentley was not (or did not); three of the remaining four were and did.

Okay, so everybody in the car testified except Bentley and Oswald - is that right?

And nobody mentioned "Hidel" when they testified right?

Also, Duke, do you know the name of the Dallas cop who has a loose leaf binder of documents, including the ONI letter to Bentley?

Thanks,

BK