Dave Perry

[William Kelly]

And now we know that the Soviet KGB, according to Mitrokin the KGB Archivist, manufactured the "Dear Mr. Hunt" letter in order to embarras Mark Lane, the same motive attributed to Dave Perry's pals who confessed to committing the crime.

BK

Bill, Mitrokhin claimed the Dear Mr. Hunt was not created to embarrass Mark Lane. but the U.S. Government. The KGB forged the letter in an effort to tie Howard Hunt to the assassination at the height of Watergate, but for whatever reason--evidently caution--Penn Jones and other recipients of the letter held up its circulation for several years, by which time many CTs assumed the Hunt in the letter was H.L. Hunt.

While Mitrokhin is often cited by LNs as proof the CT community was commie-influenced, a close read of Mitrokhin's statements indicates the KGB's efforts to infiltrate and influence the CT community failed, and that the CT community was beyond their control.

Pat, you may be right about the reputed motive of the KGB but the end result is that it is still a crime to tamper with evidence, even if you only wanted to embarrass someone or the government.

I don't believe the KGB did what Mitrokin claimed, but I do believe that some local Texas Good Ol Boys fabricated that arrest report and they should be prosecuted for it because the murder of JFK was not the only crime to take place that day. Many other crimes were committed and ignored in order for those to get away with assassination.

Prosecutors rigorously prosecute every crime related to complex conspiracies and target middle men and small fries in order to work their way up the ladder to get to the top, except when you don't want to get to the top, and then you ignore all the crimes, not just the big one.

BK

[William Kelly]

... OF COURSE AS A BARRISTER YOU SHOULD KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A CRIME AND A HOAX.

CAPS off; stop yelling, it doesn't become you.

Didn't I once mistake YOU as a lawyer, too? And since I did, shouldn't you be a bit more professional? I can tell the difference between a crime and a hoax, and I'm not a "barrister" either ... and you're not a Brit.

It's okay to be pissed off about this whole case, but I think it's a good idea not to make it personal. You have, and you shouldn't. Your apologies are appropriate, so do it.[/soapbox]

I didn't yell at you because you really don't know better Duke, but certainly a barrister understands that an insurance investigator knows how to report criminal forgery, whether it is a fake insurance claim, a bad check, a forged prescription or a police report, its still a crime to tamper with evidence.

I didn't mean to yell, more like telegraph the message to make sure its understood.

I apologize for yelling to everyone who read my post, and I'll try not get pissed off anymore, but if you or anyone, consider any of these crimes a hoax or funny then you're wrong.

The barrister also accused me of being patronizing and dragging the good name of Dave Perry through the mud, so now I'm asking politely for someone to ask Dave Perry to join the forum so we can ask him if he will tell us if his pals who fabricated the DPD police reports are Dallas cops and if he came up with any new Tippit evidence?

Also, what happened to the Oswald leaves the Book Depository post? After you spend so much time in the shoe store I asked about the two IBM guys and everybody went silent?

BK

Edited November 14, 2008 by William Kelly

[Karl Kinaski]

While I tend to agree with his assessments of some assassination related stories - Ricky/Roscoe White, James Files, Chauncey Holt, Judyth Baker, et al., I don't buy the motive he applies to all these complicated deceptions - publicity and greed.

Let me first note that you label James Files, Chauncey Holt, Judyth Baker as "complicated deceptions" . That's allright, everyone is entitled to an opinion. My opinion is that such statements do not bring a solution any closer, but they do however beg answers to the following questions:

What exactly is your main reasoning regarding each of these individuals for concluding that they are "deceptions"?

What is complicated about them?

What is/was their motive, if not publicity and greed?

Why is it that the broad public values these "deceptions" as the truth, once exposed to it? In other words, why are you right and is the average person wrong?

Wim

Good questions

I thought you wanted to talk about Dave Perry?

I'm not going to rehash the story of any of those people. I don't know what their motives are.

Maybe JVB, CH and JF got no motive, like LHO got no real motive to kill JFK, they want us to believe?

Motive of Files: attention seeker, money, misleading the public...

Motive of JVB: adding her inside knowledge to the big conspiracy picture. The truth.

Motive of C Holt: a confessions at deaths door. The truth.

Motive of LHO: save JFK as part of an abort team. (Plumlee was told the same)

[Wim Dankbaar]

Motive of Files: attention seeker, money, misleading the public...

Motive of JVB: adding her inside knowledge to the big conspiracy picture. The truth.

Motive of C Holt: a confessions at deaths door. The truth.

Motive of LHO: save JFK as part of an abort team. (Plumlee was told the same)

Wow! 3 out of 4! That's progress !

Wim

[Wim Dankbaar]

So what's up Dave, did your "search for tips on Tippit" ever develop anything new or different?

BK

Why search for tips in the first place? Is Dave not satisfied that Lee Harvey Oswald killed Tippit?

Wim

[Duke Lane]

The crime is the use of the official DPD arrest form, which limits the suspects to those who had access to such official documents, and elevates the crime to include someone with access to official documents that ordinary citizens do not, a person whose salary is paid by tax payers and who works on the public trust.

... That individuals with the public trust who would intentionally fabricate evidence in a homicide in order to publicly embarass the attorney of the primary suspect's mother is certainly a crime of the highest order, whether the victim is a President or a bum on the street. ...

The felony crimes of tampering with evidence and obstruction of justice are applicable to those who steal public documents and commit hoaxes as well as those who dissiminate KGB dissinformation and intentionally provide aid and comfort to those who commit political assassination.

It's still a major crime, either way.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines "document" as:

1. A written or printed paper that bears the original, official, or legal form of something and can be used to furnish decisive evidence or information.
   
2. Something, such as a recording or a photograph, that can be used to furnish evidence or information.
   

A form is no more a "document" than blank film is a "photograph." The simple use of a blank form is not a crime unless the purposes for which that form might be used are illegal. It is not a crime, for example, for me to fill out an "official IRS Form 1040" to make it look like I made a million dollars last year if what I do with that filled-out form is not illegal. If I use it to impress my neighbor with how much money I made, no crime has been committed. If my neighbor rushes to his IRS auditor with the information that I made a million bucks but paid taxes on only $100K (my boast to him), still no crime has been committed. If the IRS auditor comes to my house in his official capacity to perform an audit on me, I've still committed no crime. Even if I show him the form I filled out to impress my neighbor, I've yet to commit a crime because I did not submit that form to the IRS.

If, on the other hand, I did make a million bucks and I use that same form to show that I only made $100K, and submit that form to the IRS as evidence of how much money I made and taxes I owe, and by so doing am attempting to evade paying my fair share of taxes then yes, at long last, I've now committed a crime: attempting to evade payment of taxes by submission of false information to the legal authority charged with the responsibility to collect same.

I can even use that form showing I made a million bucks to prove that I'm a very successful businessman in order to get a well-paying job for which I may be otherwise qualified, but the employer made my earning that much to be a precondition of employment. I can be fired; they can institute a civil action against me; I might even be prosecuted for fraud (intentional deceit perpetrated for profit or gain or some unfair or dishonest advantage), but the IRS can't prosecute me - and even if they could, they probably wouldn't - for using their form for deceitful purposes as long as I didn't deceive them to my advantage (they probably also wouldn't prosecute me for claiming to have made a million bucks last year as long as I went ahead and paid the appropriate taxes on it, and that amount was more than I actually owed).

I can send love letters through the mail on FBI letterhead; it's okay to use a US Senator's envelope to mail payment to my credit card company as long as I put a stamp on it and don't use it for franking purposes (not that I think anyone's really going to bust me over 36¢ of postage!). I could go on and on, but the point is that simply using a piece of paper, whatever its lawful use may be, for some other purpose is not per se a crime unless the purpose it's used for is a crime. Simple deception only for the sake of deception, while maybe a sin, is not a crime.

Other factors come into play as well: while Lane may have been, at one time, a pro bono representative of Marguerite Oswald, that relationship is not deemed to continue forever (if she'd paid him, the relationship would end when she stopped paying him; because he didn't charge her and still isn't charging her does not mean that he is "still her attorney"). The spurious document also did not impinge upon Marguerite's personal interests beyond her "interest" in her son's name and reputation. Likewise, there was no legal or even quasi-legal action taking place in which the document might be considered evidence: there wasn't, isn't, and never was any kind of court action taking place that this document might've had any effect on the outcome of same. Moreover, the attorney never received the document, and as previously noted, the document was never turned over to any investigative body with any sort of jurisdiction over the crime of murder that this document didn't even address. No harm, no foul.

We might also note a little thing called "the statute of limitations." The only crime that carries none is murder, and the perpetrators of this so-called "crime" did not commit murder, nor did the document, so whatever crime you think was perpetrated, I'm quite certain the statute of limitations has long since expired: Marguerite died in January, 1981 - 27, almost 28 years ago - and she obviously received her copy of the document before her death, so if you think the "crime" has a 30-year statute of limitations, I guess you'd better get humpin' on it. Oh, and by the way: before you can file on it, you'd better have some legal standing to make the complaint - it had to affect you, personally, somehow - or else you're not going to get anywhere with it.

(I'm often reminded of the time some guy was hauled into federal court because the IRS learned - through his 1040 - that he had several million dollars to his name that he had never claimed having earned and therefore hadn't paid taxes on. The man confidently strode into court and told the judge that he'd made the money some ten years before by selling marijuana and that it was rightfully his ... and because it was more than seven years ago that he'd failed to report the earnings, the IRS couldn't touch him ... and furthermore, because the statute of limitations had expired for the sale of an illegal substance, he couldn't be prosecuted for that either. He walked.

On a similar note, the City and County of Denver, Colorado, enacted a law taxing marijuana and other substances, and requiring purveyors of such things to obtain a tax stamp to affix to their product upon sale thereof. Thus, when someone was caught selling a baggie, they not only had committed that crime, but had also evaded taxes, failed to affix said stamp to their product, etc. Of course, appearing at the county courthouse to obtain such a tax stamp also would likely trigger and investigation of your fine self, so nobody wanted to get one anyway!)

So the bottom line is that, no matter how outraged you might be by these shenanigans, there's nothing that can be done about it now, even if it was a "major crime."

The crime is the use of the official DPD arrest form, which limits the suspects to those who had access to such official documents, and elevates the crime to include someone with access to official documents that ordinary citizens do not, a person whose salary is paid by tax payers and who works on the public trust.

... That individuals with the public trust who would intentionally fabricate evidence in a homicide in order to publicly embarass the attorney of the primary suspect's mother is certainly a crime of the highest order, whether the victim is a President or a bum on the street. ...

The felony crimes of tampering with evidence and obstruction of justice are applicable to those who steal public documents and commit hoaxes as well as those who dissiminate KGB dissinformation and intentionally provide aid and comfort to those who commit political assassination.

Some other things:

Embarassing someone is not a crime. Deceiving an attorney is not a crime. There is no indication that the guys who filled in and mailed this form were public officials of any sort, and to prove it, I may just march on over to our local PD here and get a copy of a blank arrest form just to show you it can be done. The completed form is not "evidence" in anything since there was no legal action taking place - not even an active or inactive investigation - for it to be considered legal evidence. Its content and context had nothing to do with a murder, so even if it were "evidence," it is certainly not "evidence in a murder investigation."

"Public documents" are only that when someone in a public capacity completes them in conjunction with an official function or capacity; merely writing a letter on FBI letterhead does not make it a "public document." You have no evidence that the guys "stole" the blank form either. Oh, and didn't Penn Jones get the original page of the multi-part form? Geez, wouldn't you think that should've been on file at DPD? Since it quite obviously wasn't on file there since it did not originate there, there is no way it can be considered a "public document."

For all the outrage, there's just nothing there. Even if Perry was as outraged as you are over this behavior, just like the guy who made a gazillion bucks selling pot and admitted it after the statutes of limitations had expired, there just ain't nothin' nobody can do about it, so "so what?" Save the outrage for something you can do something about.

Those who committed this crime were not just pranksters, but much more sophisticated because of the use of Mary Bledsoe, a major player on multiple levels, and the possibility that such things could happen within the chronology of those mentioned, Oswald actually did live at her rooming house for one acromonious week when such a disturbance could have happened and would explain her antimosity towards Oswald.

Oh, puh-leeeze!! Mary Bledsoe a "major player?" Get real! All she ever did was rent a room to Oswald for a week and see him on a bus. BFD.

As to it "explaining her animosity toward Oswald," (1) it never happened, so it doesn't explain anything, and (2) if it had happened, I'd think she'd have said so. After all, she made particular mention of the fact that she didn't like Oswald having stored his milk in her refrigerator(!); don't you think she would've mentioned a fight, which is a heckuva lot less petty of a disturbance in her well-ordered life?

Edited November 14, 2008 by Duke Lane

[Duke Lane]

So what's up Dave, did your "search for tips on Tippit" ever develop anything new or different?

Why search for tips in the first place? Is Dave not satisfied that Lee Harvey Oswald killed Tippit?

I'm not. Why should anyone else be?

[William Kelly]

The crime is the use of the official DPD arrest form, which limits the suspects to those who had access to such official documents, and elevates the crime to include someone with access to official documents that ordinary citizens do not, a person whose salary is paid by tax payers and who works on the public trust.

... That individuals with the public trust who would intentionally fabricate evidence in a homicide in order to publicly embarass the attorney of the primary suspect's mother is certainly a crime of the highest order, whether the victim is a President or a bum on the street. ...

The felony crimes of tampering with evidence and obstruction of justice are applicable to those who steal public documents and commit hoaxes as well as those who dissiminate KGB dissinformation and intentionally provide aid and comfort to those who commit political assassination.

It's still a major crime, either way.

OKAY DUKE I WON'T TELEGRAPH IT TO YOU, 'LL use a a different color to set you straight.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines "document" as:

1. A written or printed paper that bears the original, official, or legal form of something and can be used to furnish decisive evidence or information.
   
2. Something, such as a recording or a photograph, that can be used to furnish evidence or information.
   

A form is no more a "document" than blank film is a "photograph." The simple use of a blank form is not a crime unless the purposes for which that form might be used are illegal.

it is a crime to take an official Dallas Police Depart arrest report for whatever reason, just like it is a crime to steal a check from someoone or a prescription form from a doctor. It's not worth arguing over.

You love to throw out speculations and hypothetical possiblities when they aren't necessary, all wothless and meaningless.

It is not a crime, for example, for me to fill out an "official IRS Form 1040" to make it look like I made a million dollars last year if what I do with that filled-out form is not illegal. If I use it to impress my neighbor with how much money I made, no crime has been committed. If my neighbor rushes to his IRS auditor with the information that I made a million bucks but paid taxes on only $100K (my boast to him), still no crime has been committed. If the IRS auditor comes to my house in his official capacity to perform an audit on me, I've still committed no crime. Even if I show him the form I filled out to impress my neighbor, I've yet to commit a crime because I did not submit that form to the IRS.

If, on the other hand, I did make a million bucks and I use that same form to show that I only made $100K, and submit that form to the IRS as evidence of how much money I made and taxes I owe, and by so doing am attempting to evade paying my fair share of taxes then yes, at long last, I've now committed a crime: attempting to evade payment of taxes by submission of false information to the legal authority charged with the responsibility to collect same.

I can even use that form showing I made a million bucks to prove that I'm a very successful businessman in order to get a well-paying job for which I may be otherwise qualified, but the employer made my earning that much to be a precondition of employment. I can be fired; they can institute a civil action against me; I might even be prosecuted for fraud (intentional deceit perpetrated for profit or gain or some unfair or dishonest advantage), but the IRS can't prosecute me - and even if they could, they probably wouldn't - for using their form for deceitful purposes as long as I didn't deceive them to my advantage (they probably also wouldn't prosecute me for claiming to have made a million bucks last year as long as I went ahead and paid the appropriate taxes on it, and that amount was more than I actually owed).

I can send love letters through the mail on FBI letterhead; it's okay to use a US Senator's envelope to mail payment to my credit card company as long as I put a stamp on it and don't use it for franking purposes (not that I think anyone's really going to bust me over 36¢ of postage!). I could go on and on, but the point is that simply using a piece of paper, whatever its lawful use may be, for some other purpose is not per se a crime unless the purpose it's used for is a crime. Simple deception only for the sake of deception, while maybe a sin, is not a crime.

The crime is in the stealing of an official document, in this case the DPD arrest report, and fabricating info.

Other factors come into play as well: while Lane may have been, at one time, a pro bono representative of Marguerite Oswald, that relationship is not deemed to continue forever (if she'd paid him, the relationship would end when she stopped paying him; because he didn't charge her and still isn't charging her does not mean that he is "still her attorney"). The spurious document also did not impinge upon Marguerite's personal interests beyond her "interest" in her son's name and reputation. Likewise, there was no legal or even quasi-legal action taking place in which the document might be considered evidence: there wasn't, isn't, and never was any kind of court action taking place that this document might've had any effect on the outcome of same. Moreover, the attorney never received the document, and as previously noted, the document was never turned over to any investigative body with any sort of jurisdiction over the crime of murder that this document didn't even address. No harm, no foul.

Except that a group of people, probably policeman or ex-policeman or someone who worked at the Police Department, stole an arrest report and fabricated a false arrest implicating the accused assassin, his killer and Mary Bledsoe in an arrest that apparently never took place, for the reputed purpose of embarrasing the lawyer of the accussed assassin's family.That's a crime. And I wonder whether it is related to similar crimes of using false records to "embarras" others involved (ie. "Dear Mr. Hunt" letter, Zipper Docs, E. Howard Hunt Diem/JFK cable, etc.).

We might also note a little thing called "the statute of limitations." The only crime that carries none is murder, and the perpetrators of this so-called "crime" did not commit murder, nor did the document, so whatever crime you think was perpetrated, I'm quite certain the statute of limitations has long since expired: Marguerite died in January, 1981 - 27, almost 28 years ago - and she obviously received her copy of the document before her death, so if you think the "crime" has a 30-year statute of limitations, I guess you'd better get humpin' on it. Oh, and by the way: before you can file on it, you'd better have some legal standing to make the complaint - it had to affect you, personally, somehow - or else you're not going to get anywhere with it.

As pointed out by lawyer at the Wecht Conference in Pittsburgh, the statute of limitations has run out on most crimes related to the assassination, other than homicide, murder and treason. But a good prosecutor, intent on prosecuting every crime related to the assassination, would haul Dave Perry before a grand jury, require him to name those who he has identified as the culpets in the fabrication, and then require them to testify, and if they lie, then they can be prosecuted for perjury now, even though the statute of limitations ran out on the forgery crime seven years after it was committed. The perjury would stand, or the threat of being charged with perjury would require them to tell the truth.

(I'm often reminded of the time some guy was hauled into federal court because the IRS learned - through his 1040 - that he had several million dollars to his name that he had never claimed having earned and therefore hadn't paid taxes on. The man confidently strode into court and told the judge that he'd made the money some ten years before by selling marijuana and that it was rightfully his ... and because it was more than seven years ago that he'd failed to report the earnings, the IRS couldn't touch him ... and furthermore, because the statute of limitations had expired for the sale of an illegal substance, he couldn't be prosecuted for that either. He walked.

On a similar note, the City and County of Denver, Colorado, enacted a law taxing marijuana and other substances, and requiring purveyors of such things to obtain a tax stamp to affix to their product upon sale thereof. Thus, when someone was caught selling a baggie, they not only had committed that crime, but had also evaded taxes, failed to affix said stamp to their product, etc. Of course, appearing at the county courthouse to obtain such a tax stamp also would likely trigger and investigation of your fine self, so nobody wanted to get one anyway!)

Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla,....

So the bottom line is that, no matter how outraged you might be by these shenanigans, there's nothing that can be done about it now, even if it was a "major crime."

The bottom line is that there are a number of crimes related to the assassination of the President that could be resolved legally if an honest, indepedent DA conveined a grand jury and presented them with the evidence and the living witnesses and require them to answer the questions under oath before the grand jury. A Congressional Hearing could probably get some answer, but couldn't prosecute.

I would think you would be working towards providing evidence and new witnesess to such a grand jury rather than dissmissing the possiblity with a lot of rambling speculations.

The crime is the use of the official DPD arrest form, which limits the suspects to those who had access to such official documents, and elevates the crime to include someone with access to official documents that ordinary citizens do not, a person whose salary is paid by tax payers and who works on the public trust.

... That individuals with the public trust who would intentionally fabricate evidence in a homicide in order to publicly embarass the attorney of the primary suspect's mother is certainly a crime of the highest order, whether the victim is a President or a bum on the street. ...

The felony crimes of tampering with evidence and obstruction of justice are applicable to those who steal public documents and commit hoaxes as well as those who dissiminate KGB dissinformation and intentionally provide aid and comfort to those who commit political assassination.

Some other things:

Embarassing someone is not a crime. Deceiving an attorney is not a crime.

Stealing the DPD Arrest form is a crime and attempting to deceive or embarras an attorney in a homicide is a crime, and it doesn't matter whether it was done as a joke or a serious attempt to implicate Ruby and Oswald together or whatever.

There is no indication that the guys who filled in and mailed this form were public officials of any sort,

Other than the fact that they had access to official records that the general public does not.

and to prove it, I may just march on over to our local PD here and get a copy of a blank arrest form just to show you it can be done.

You do that Duke, and let us know what happens.

The completed form is not "evidence" in anything since there was no legal action taking place - not even an active or inactive investigation - for it to be considered legal evidence. Its content and context had nothing to do with a murder, so even if it were "evidence," it is certainly not "evidence in a murder investigation."

"Public documents" are only that when someone in a public capacity completes them in conjunction with an official function or capacity; merely writing a letter on FBI letterhead does not make it a "public document." You have no evidence that the guys "stole" the blank form either. Oh, and didn't Penn Jones get the original page of the multi-part form? Geez, wouldn't you think that should've been on file at DPD? Since it quite obviously wasn't on file there since it did not originate there, there is no way it can be considered a "public document."

For all the outrage, there's just nothing there. Even if Perry was as outraged as you are over this behavior, just like the guy who made a gazillion bucks selling pot and admitted it after the statutes of limitations had expired, there just ain't nothin' nobody can do about it, so "so what?" Save the outrage for something you can do something about.

I believe that a grand jury investigation can answer all of these outstanding questions, and it is something that can be done, and eventually will be done, not only to investigate this one instance of creating false records, but all of the instances of false records in this case, and other crimes as well. And this is a crime that the Dallas DA can resolve, without federal assistance, along with the murder of Tippit.

Those who committed this crime were not just pranksters, but much more sophisticated because of the use of Mary Bledsoe, a major player on multiple levels, and the possibility that such things could happen within the chronology of those mentioned, Oswald actually did live at her rooming house for one acromonious week when such a disturbance could have happened and would explain her antimosity towards Oswald.

Oh, puh-leeeze!! Mary Bledsoe a "major player?" Get real! All she ever did was rent a room to Oswald for a week and see him on a bus. BFD.

She's a player then, not only in renting Oswald a room for a week, but a major one in determining the reputed escape route of the alledged assassin. How is that NOT a major player?

As to it "explaining her animosity toward Oswald," (1) it never happened, so it doesn't explain anything, and (2) if it had happened, I'd think she'd have said so. After all, she made particular mention of the fact that she didn't like Oswald having stored his milk in her refrigerator(!); don't you think she would've mentioned a fight, which is a heckuva lot less petty of a disturbance in her well-ordered life?

Which goes to the root of the problem of the false police report, and other fake but official looking records that were fabricated. Why were they fabricated at all?

If you believe Dave Perry, it was all a Holloween Hoax and a practical joke. Ha, Ha.

And E. Howard Hunt only wanted to embarrass JFK by implicating him in the Diem assassination, it was only a joke.

BK

Edited November 14, 2008 by William Kelly

[Duke Lane]

Oh, come on, Bill!

You really believe that some DA, who has to stand for election, is really going to get a bunch of citizens together to sit on a grand jury and pay them by the day at $40 apiece, all to get to the root of a question of who put false information onto an improperly obtained form and sent it out to people who either didn't receive it or thought so little of its contents that they put it in a box somewhere and forgot about it without bringing it to anyone's attention, said "major crime" occuring some 30 or 40 years ago?

Let's say the man was politically suicidal enough to do that. He drags Perry in, who tells him who the men were. He subpoenas said men, who come in and tell him the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I mean, what's the big deal? It was 30 or 40 years ago, they can't be prosecuted, just like the guy who sold the pot and made a gazillion bucks.

Oh, and no perjury charge either. Damn, that was well worth the county's money, bringing someone before a solemn deliberative body on the off chance that you can get them to lie about something that might be a misdemeanor and be able to charge them with something new ... you think? Oh, and did I mention that they've got to go to the expense of trying the guys for perjury too ... if they lie and their fancy-suited lawyer doesn't get it thrown out as entrapment? Well worth it, though, if you consider all the harm it engendered. Yup, got put in a box, sure did. Stored away, forgotten.

And then embarassed a few guys years later when they discovered the shocking original of this piece of tripe. Now that might be a crime worth a hanging, cuz y'know, if those first guys hadn't fabricated the thing, the others would never have found it and would've been spared the ignominy.

Got any other major crimes to solve today? The important thing here is to get a conviction - on anything, it doesn't matter - as long as they get punished, right?

I'm not even sure that a grand jury can hear misdemeanor questions.

Incidentally, I'd love to be that DA's opponent come election time!

Edited November 14, 2008 by Duke Lane

[William Kelly]

Oh, come on, Bill!

You really believe that some DA, who has to stand for election, is really going to get a bunch of citizens together to sit on a grand jury and pay them by the day at $40 apiece, all to get to the root of a question of who put false information onto an improperly obtained form and sent it out to people who either didn't receive it or thought so little of its contents that they put it in a box somewhere and forgot about it without bringing it to anyone's attention, said "major crime" occuring some 30 or 40 years ago?

Let's say the man was politically suicidal enough to do that. He drags Perry in, who tells him who the men were. He subpoenas said men, who come in and tell him the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I mean, what's the big deal? It was 30 or 40 years ago, they can't be prosecuted, just like the guy who sold the pot and made a gazillion bucks.

Oh, and no perjury charge either. Damn, that was well worth the county's money, bringing someone before a solemn deliberative body on the off chance that you can get them to lie about something that might be a misdemeanor and be able to charge them with something new ... you think? Oh, and did I mention that they've got to go to the expense of trying the guys for perjury too ... if they lie and their fancy-suited lawyer doesn't get it thrown out as entrapment? Well worth it, though, if you consider all the harm it engendered. Yup, got put in a box, sure did. Stored away, forgotten.

And then embarassed a few guys years later when they discovered the shocking original of this piece of tripe. Now that might be a crime worth a hanging, cuz y'know, if those first guys hadn't fabricated the thing, the others would never have found it and would've been spared the ignominy.

Got any other major crimes to solve today? The important thing here is to get a conviction - on anything, it doesn't matter - as long as they get punished, right?

I'm not even sure that a grand jury can hear misdemeanor questions.

Incidentally, I'd love to be that DA's opponent come election time!

Okay Duke,

you win, I'm wasting my time.

I give up.

BK

[William Kelly]

Oh, come on, Bill!

Hey Duke, I was just kidding about giving up.

I don't mind jousting with you a little more.

You really believe that some DA, who has to stand for election, is really going to get a bunch of citizens together to sit on a grand jury and pay them by the day at $40 apiece, all to get to the root of a question of who

Well Duke, if you haven't noticed there's a new paradigm at work here, and what is now taking place nationally already took place in Dallas when the good citizens of Dallas County elected Craig Watkins District Attorney. Watkins was ahead of the national curve, and released the JFK assassination records that had been collected by previous DAs, and began a progam that reexamines DNA evidence in previous convictions that has freed more innocent convicts than in any other county in USA. Someone must have committed those crimes, and now there is a need for a Task Force of detectives and prosecutors to go after those actually responsible. The Emmett Till Bill advocates the formaiton of a similar national Task Force to reexamine all of the murders and political assassinations of the civil rights era, but it has been held up by one senator. Such a Task Force would examine all of the crimes related to the assassination, including tampering with evidence, which would include the DPD report, but not be the only case reexamined.

put false information onto an improperly obtained form and sent it out to people who either didn't receive it or thought so little of its contents that they put it in a box somewhere and forgot about it without bringing it to anyone's attention, said "major crime" occuring some 30 or 40 years ago?

Like I said, the major crime(s) are the assassination of the President and the murder(s) of Tippit and Oswald, but if a Task Force is assigned to investigate and develop evidence and witnesses for a grand jury, even traffic tickets are examined. No stone left unturned.

While I don't share your propensity for imagining possible scenarios, I'll share with you what I would expect to happen.

Let's say the man was politically suicidal enough to do that. He drags Perry in, who tells him who the men were. He subpoenas said men, who come in and tell him the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I mean, what's the big deal? It was 30 or 40 years ago, they can't be prosecuted, just like the guy who sold the pot and made a gazillion bucks.

The purpose isn't to prosecute traffic tickets, but to get to the truth of what really happened, so once you've identified the persons responsible, I would want to know how they had access to the official forms? Perry has already acknowledge a conpsiracy with more than one perpetrator, so now I want to know if they are cops or did someone know someone who worked at City Hall and gave them the blank form?

And I'd also want to know, if they were cops, what division they worked under, and who was their commander? I'd also want to know if they served in the US Army Reserves, as the USAR ran their DIA intelligence network through their US Army Reservest who served in local city police Departments. And if they were cops and USAR, then I'd want to know if their theft of the form and filling it out as they did, privy to special information - (ie Bledsoe), was part of a planned dizinfo compaign to associate the accussed patsy and Ruby?

Maybe if PLAN A to blame the assassination on Castro was brought into play, instead of PLAN B - the Lone Nut Patsy scenario, then Bledsoe WOULD have said that Ruby and Oswald had a fight at her apartment and the document would prove it. Itsn't it fun to speculate?

Oh, and no perjury charge either. Damn, that was well worth the county's money, bringing someone before a solemn deliberative body on the off chance that you can get them to lie about something that might be a misdemeanor and be able to charge with something new ... you think? Oh, and did I mention that they've got to go to the expense of trying the guys for perjury too ... if they lie and their fancy-suited lawyer doesn't get it thrown out as entrapment? Well worth it, though, if you consider all the harm it engendered. Yup, got put in a box, sure did. Stored away, forgotten.

And then embarassed a few guys years later when they discovered the shocking original of this piece of tripe. Now that might be a crime worth a hanging, cuz y'know, if those first guys hadn't fabricated the thing, the others would never have found it and would've been spared the ignominy.

Got any other major crimes to solve today? The important thing here is to get a conviction - on anything, it doesn't matter - as long as they get punished, right?

So you understand that getting the convictioun here isn't important, and that the crime is only used to obtain the withheld information - the id of the perps and whether they were cops and DIA? Got it?

I'm not even sure that a grand jury can hear misdemeanor questions.

Tampering with evidence and obstruction of justice in a homicide aren't misdemeanors.

Incidentally, I'd love to be that DA's opponent come election time!

I don't think DA Craig Watkins has to worry too much about you replacing him. He's getting good PR, now has name recognition, and unless the demographics of Dallas County change dramatically, I wouldn't bet against him.

Although he probably has the resources to solve the Tippit murder, I don't think he can take on the JFK assassins. That's something that would take a federal Task Force, a specail prosecutor and a Special Federal Grand Jury.

But all of the little solveable little crimes provide good fodder for unraveling the big ones.

BK

Okay Duke,

you win, I'm wasting my time.

I give up.

BK

[Guest Tom Scully]

Sigh... in spite of the risk that it will just be more of the same already posted here, this is a thread titled, "Replying to Dave Perry", and I found some curious statements Dave made and so I will post them and my reaction.

...And Ray Carroll, I have read all the posts in this thread, so before I even begin, if you are inclined to post further on behalf of, or in support of either Mr. Perry or Mr. Mack, please do it someplace other than in this thread?

I came away after reading the following account by Dave Perry, convinced that this "serious" assassination "buff" and super sleuth, could burn down the WCR with the leads I am providing in this post, if he took the same approach and enthusiasm he describes in his account. He went after "nobody", Ricky White.

These are excerpted statements from Perry, in the same piece he authored (near the bottom).:

(quote) http://davesjfk.com/roscoew.html

Who Speaks for Roscoe White?

by David B. Perry

...I could go on and on about this. Actually I already have...

...No wonder we are called "buffs." This is the stuff that diverts us from the real purpose of our efforts to resolve the case.(/quote)

My reaction is that a "buff" is someone, especially with the investigative skills and resources Dave Perry so tirelessly puts on display in his article, would be someone inclined to question the official conclusions and evidence presented, and not focus so much time and attention on an after the fact, sideshow.

Instead, Mr. Perry positions himself as an ever vigilant pit bull at the ready to investigate and discredit any emergence of a potential threat to the status quo.

"Buff" Dave Perry gets to do the same thing over and over, working not to solve anything that is suspect or inconsistent in the WCR or HSCA, but to disarm anything that appears to him to be "unserious".

(quote)http://davesjfk.com/roscoew.html

....One reporter, at the White press conference, referred to the presentation as "the assassin of the month club." We can ill afford this type of publicity if we expect people to take us seriously.

It is our responsibility to properly investigate allegations and let the narratives stand or fall on the merits. We should be opening doors not closing them.

ADDENDUM....(/quote)

Imagine if Dave Perry would actually work as the "buff" he claims he is, exhibits some actual curiousity, delves into the background of "the" narrative to determine if it stands or falls, and stops performing his claimed service to us, preserving our "seriousness" in front of an MSM poised at all times to dismiss us as "kooks"?

First assignment, Dave.... Are these all coincidences, or do these examples tend to impeach the reliability of the findings in the WCR to a point where even a "buff" such as yourself would dig into these examples as thoroughly and enthusiastically as you investigated the "narrative" of Ricky White?

Why doesn't Dave Perry "pick on something his own size", launch an investigation into something worthy of his own sense of his talent, stature, and seriousness? I have just the challenge for the able investigator and "buff". The following are the leads.:

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22*standpoint+of+protecting+the+family%2C+there+is+one+serious%22&btnG=Search+Books#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&tbo=1&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=%22*The+fact+is%2C+however%2C+that+from+the+standpoint+of+protecting%22&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=7694d34fae9de011&biw=790&bih=476

Secret Service chief

Urbanus Edmund Baughman - 1962 - 266 pages - Snippet view

I was silent on the matter for that reason— it would have been unavailing to speak. The fact is, however, that from the standpoint of protecting the family, there is one serious drawback in Middleburg. It is that there is only one road

http://books.google.com/books?id=Te0FJOivjJ0C&q=security+glen+ora&dq=security+glen+ora&hl=en&ei=nWzhTdbyF8jOgAeKq_CwBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ

Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis

Stephen Birmingham - 1979 - 262 pages - Snippet view

Monnet was shocked by the lack of security at Glen Ora. Later he said, "Anyone could have come up that drive and shot him on his own lawn. Along the driveway of Charles De Gaulle's country place, there's a sentry posted every twenty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_McNamara#Personal_life

Robert McNamara

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...In September 2004, McNamara wed Diana Masieri Byfield, an Italian-born widow who had lived in the United States for more than 40 years. It was her second marriage. She was married for more than three decades to Ernest Byfield, a former OSS officer and Chicago hotel heir whose mother, Gladys Tartiere, leased her 400-acre (1.6 km2), Glen Ora estate in Middleburg, Virginia to John F. Kennedy during his presidency.[36][37]

http://books.google.com/books?id=SJ-cWq1c1G4C&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=glen+ora+bay+of+pigs&source=bl&ots=2kXJBbLjeu&sig=UwrGFZADxHI-QG82KqWhrE4VhME&hl=en&ei=o23hTcXyFojpgAeDxci8Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=glen%20ora%20bay%20of%20pigs&f=false

For the president's eyes only: secret intelligence and the ... - Google Books Result

Christopher Andrew, Christopher M. Andrew - 1996 - History - 688 pages

At midday on Sunday he gave the go-ahead for landings in the Bay of Pigs on the ... Rusk telephoned Glen Ora, woke the president, and handed the phone to ...

(quote) http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15323&view=findpost&p=180439

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=AlE0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=lX4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=7273,4964574&dq=webb+crown+sam+joseph&hl=en

The Milwaukee Journal - Mar 19, 1977

Led to More Deals

For Webb, the Flamingo experience led to a series of deals

with other developers including Henry Crown of Chicago and

Arnold S. Kirkeby of Los Angeles.

Crown, now 80, a Chicago financier who owned the Empire State Building

from 1954 to 1961, became a close adviser to Webb. He was a longtime ally of

a Chicago Democratic boss, the late Jacob M. (Jake) Arvey, and a business associate

of Tucson developer Sam Nanini, another Chicagoan with acknowledged mob connections....

Jake Arvey and Pat Hoy opened a bank together. It was one of the banks Pat Hoy spent three years in prison for borrowing funds from though fraudulant means. Byfiield Jr. went into business with Hoy's nephew. (/quote)

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...mp;#entry163522

The Fish is Red: The Story of the Secret War Against Castro‎ -

by Warren Hinckle, William W. Turner - Political Science - 1981 - 373 pages

Page 79

As word of the impending invasion spread through the executive suites of American corporations the properties which had been expropriated by

Castro, there was cautious optimism. The president of the Francisco Sugar Company, B. Rionda Braga, told the Wall Street Journal on Febru-ary 9, 1961 that it was "reasonable to hope that the present Cuban government will fall and American companies will be able to resume operations there."

Francisco Sugar exemplified the interlock between the business world and the netherworld of intelligence. Braga's brother, George A. Braga, a

Francisco director, sat on the board of Schroder's Limited, a British merchant bank that long had been the repository of a CIA contingency fund,

— estimated at $50 million — which was controlled by Allen Dulles.....

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&tbs=ar:1&tbm=nws&source=hp&q=ernest+byfield+ervesun+&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=ernest+byfield+ervesun+&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=73a5782601ead03&biw=790&bih=476

Mrs. Ernest Byfield Jr. Is Dead; Active in Many Society...

- New York Times - Aug 19, 1970

Mrs. Ernest Byfield Jr., a prominent society woman and the wife of an ... Besides her husband, she leaves a sister, ,Mrs. Placido Ervesun o'f Alpine,

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=P1Acido+Bernardo+Rionda+Braga&btnG=Search+Archives&ned=us&hl=en&scoring=a"]http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=P1A...n&scoring=a[/url]

MISS HELEN PARISH MARRIED IN o3HAPEL; 3escendant of the First White Child Born in New England Wed to P. A. Ervesun.

October 30, 1935, Wednesday

MISS HELEN PARISH MARRIED IN o3HAPEL; 3escendant of the First …

$3.95 - New York Times - Oct 30, 1935

Four cousins of the bridegroom, George Atkinson Braga. Bernardo Rionda Braga, Alfonso Fanjul and Manuel Antuna, served as ushers with John R. Tregenza and .

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3686-2004Sep7.html

Wedding Bells for Robert McNamara By Roxanne Roberts Washington Post Staff Writer Wednesday, September 8, 2004; Page C01

"Romantic" is not the first word that comes to mind when referring to Robert McNamara, but the 88-year-old former defense secretary is a dove when it comes to love. McNamara will wed his Italian-born sweetheart, Diana Masieri Byfield, next week in a ceremony in Italy.

This is the second marriage for both. ...

...She was married for more than three decades to Ernest Byfield, a former OSS officer and public relations executive. Byfield has lived for many years on a farm in Middleburg, and is an avid tennis player."

Reclaiming history: the assassination of President John F. Kennedy - Page 343

Vincent Bugliosi - 2007 - 1612 pages - Preview

... and focused primarily on determining the location from where the shots were fired; Area II was "Identity of the Assassin," given to Joseph Ball and David Belin; Area III was "Lee Harvey Oswald's Background," handled by Albert Jenner

It is a tempting standard of proof to use, and Albert Jenner enthusiastically promoted it. The problem for his legacy, and for the reliability of the official line

is that, when I use the same standard Jenner endorsed, all I find is that he most likely played a key part in a conspiracy to obstruct and to alter the WC investigation and report, raising the likelihood that there were one or more conspiracies involved in the assassination of president Kennedy and the murder of LHO, and in what the government claimed was a reliable investigation and report of who murdered JFK.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=albert+jenner+conspiracy&sa=N&tbs=nws:1,ar:1#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_min%3A1964%2Ccd_max%3A1966%2Cbks%3A1&q=coincidences+made+it+seem+most+likely+that+the+assassination+of&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=albert+jenner+conspiracy&gs_rfai=&psj=1&fp=80f78c692ae3c498

Federal bar news: Volume 13

Federal Bar Association - 1966 - Snippet view

In his address, Mr. Jenner stated that a series of extraordinary coincidences made it seem most likely that the assassination of President Kennedy was the work of one man — Lee Harvey Oswald. "After months of intensive research, the reading of some 40000 pages of material assembled by units of the federal government, and the questioning of scores of persons, including Oswald's wife, we came to the conclusion that there was no conspiracy, either domestic or foreign," Jenner said...

Mr. Scully stated that a series of extraordinary coincidences made it seem most likely that the participation of Albert E. Jenner in the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy was just one component of an elaborate conspiracy to obstruct the investigation and to distort the conclusions in the Warren Commission Report.

A series of extraordinary coincidences.:

We know now that Earl Warren advanced the name of Albert E. Jenner, Jr. for consideration for a senior assistant investigative counsel on the WC, in an executive sesssion, before 15 December, 1963. We know Warren also said that Tom Clark and Dean Acheson had agreed that Jenner was a good selection for the position.

We also know that later in the LBJ White House years, Clark Clifford advanced the name of republican Jenner for a Supreme Court nomination.

1946- US Attorney General Tom Clark tells columnist Drew Pearson that FBI investigators have confirmed the reliability of testimony accusing Henry Crown, the Hilton Hotel chain, and Walter Annenberg of controlling the Chicago mob.

1953- Albert Jenner represents Chicago union local 1031 business manager, M. Frank Darling in a legislative committee hearing in DC. Darling is the first labor union customer of the Paul and Allen Dorfman health insurance brokerage. Pritzker and Teamsters Cent. State Pension Funds attorney, Stanford Clinton represents the Dorfmans. Later, Jenner's firm represents the Teamsters Funds in hotel financing loans to the Pritzkers.

1956- Tom Clark, now a Supreme Court Justice, selects Henry Crown's son, John as on of his two law clerks for the 1956 court term.

1959- Henry Crown, about to gain control of 20 percent of General Dynamics stock and its executive compensation chair, is Albert Jenner's wealthiest and most important client. Jenner's lawfirm hires former Tom Clark law clerk, John Crown, and he stays long enough to become a partner.

1960- Henry Crown hires Chicago Sherman Hotel group president, Patrick Hoy and appoints Hoy with no related experience, as executive VP of General Dynamics. Hoy is a close friend of mob attorney, Sidney Korshak. Hoy has worked for the hotel owners, the Ernest Byfield, Jr. family since 1945. Byfield is former US army, OSS, and in November, Clark Clifford and William Walton persuade Byfield's mother to lease for several years, her 400 acres, Virginia hunt country estate, Glen Ora, to the JFK family.

1961- JFK oversees and then shuts down Bay of Pigs weekend invasion from Glen Ora telephones. Byfield's sister-in-law, Nina, is the wife of Placido Ervesun, first cousin and sugar business partner of Rionda Braga. Braga shares the employ of his company executive Jack Malone, a CIA asset, with LBJ's first political mentor, Richard Kleberg of King Ranch. Malone and Braga have also been in the kenaf business with Joseph Dryer, an Army intel informant, is a future contact of DeMohrenschildt in Haiti. In 1972, GHW Bush escorts Susan Hooker, daughter of his deceased school roommate, a nephew of DeMohrenschildt, down the wedding aisle to marry Rionda Braga's son, Ames. Susan Hooker Braga divorces and marries a protege of McKinsey partner and Celanese president, John D Macomber. Macomber hires Tom Devine as VP at Celanese. Devine is former CIA, Bush's oil exploration business partner, reactivated with CIA in 1963 to meet in NYC with Demohrenschildt and Haitian banker, Clemard Charles and again in 1968, to escort Bush on a Vietnam tour. Macomber's brother, William, OSS and CIA, is 1946 best man in Bush's sister's wedding, brings LHO and other defectors to the attention of Otepka at state in 1960, and serves as Devine's best man in a 1973 Jupiter Island wedding to daughter of a Yale bonesman.

1962- News reports claim Crown's General Dynamics has suffered the largest one year loss of any US corporation in history. Defense secretary McNamara selects General Dynamics over rival, Boeing, for award of most expensive contract award in US military history, to build the TFX war plane.

1963- Senate hearings on TFX contract award process worry Henry Crown. He lobbies for General Dynamics on capitol hill. In autumn, Navy secretary Fred Korth is fired for conflict of interests in his participation in awarding TFX contract to General Dynamics. In late October, Drew Pearson column states that Tom Clark told him in 1946 that prominent businessmen whose names are familiar to every Chicago household, ran the mob. 22 November news reports say TFX award may be reconsidered. JFK is assassinated. By 15 December, TFX hearings are suspended until 1969, with no action taken, and Albert Jenner had been chosen to serve on the WC.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JQJPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PwEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7282,1425999&dq=ruby+dorfman&hl=en

Rhodes Returns To Washington

‎

Toledo Blade - Nov 25, 1963

Ruby also worked as a union organizer for Paul Dorfman, Chicago union boss and close buddy of James Hoffa, Teamsters president. Dorfman headed the Waste and .

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=mr.+darling+dorfman+jacobs&btnG=Search&um=1&ned=us&hl=en&scoring=a

AFL Union Chiefs Son Balks at $101,000 Payoff Quiz

Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver - Nov 24, 1953

Dorfman declined to answer. "Frank Darling?" the com- mittee shot at him. .

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1457&st=0&p=187543entry187543

...In The Matter of The Application for Playboy-Elsinore Associates

For a Casino License

Decided: April 7, 1982

.....Page 4

B. Areas of Concern Identified By The Division...

..Stanford Clinton again withdrew as counsel for the ()Teamsters Central States) PENSION FUND and the firm of Thompson, Raymond, Mayer, Jenner and Bloomstein was retained in order to render legal advice to the Trustees of the Fund and to execute the appropriate legal documents.

Counsel for Michael Frank Darling in the 1953 hearing, declaring that he would never attempt to answer questions directed at his client, was Albert E, Jenner. Counsel for Paul and Allen Dorfman was Stanford Clinton.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22music+maids%22+client+answer&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aunofficial&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=%22music+maids%22+answer+mckenna+jenner&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=7694d34fae9de011&biw=790&bih=476

Investigation of welfare funds and racketeering ... Hearings ... ...

United States. Congress. House. Committee on education and labor - 1953 - 502 pages - Snippet view

Mr. Jenner. He incorporated them afterward.

Mr. Darling. Afterward.

Mr. Jenner. He made the contract with Admiral before the incorporation.

Mr. McKenna. I would rather the witness answer.

Mr. Darling. That was the way it happened.

Bares Lavish Parties for Union Bosses Here

Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver - Nov 24, 1953

James R. Hoffa, Frank Darling, Bert Brennan, Dave Previant, Phil Goodman, ... Mr . and Mrs. Paul Dorfman, Mr. and Mrs. Allen Dorfman, Joseph Jacobs, ...

AFL Union Chiefs Son Balks at $101,000 Payoff Quiz

Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver - Nov 24, 1953

M. Frank Darling is the head of local 1031 of the AFL Elec- trical Workers ... However, Mrs. Rose Dorfman, also sought on a , was ill and would not appear. ...

The Kennedy assassination cover-up - Page 96

Donald Gibson - 2000 - 306 pages - Google eBook - Preview

....Warren then said that Albert Jenner of Chicago had been suggested. Warren did not identify the source of the suggestion. Jenner was with the law firm of Raymond, Mayer, Jenner & Block and had been previously a law professor at Northwestern University. He had also been involved with a number of state and national groups working on legal issues.21 Warren said that he had checked on Jenner with a number of people and they all recommended him. Two of Jenner's references were mentioned by name. Tom Clark, former Attorney General of the US and active supporter in the Truman years of J. Edgar Hoover's anti- subversion efforts, knew Jenner through their common participation on the Judiciary Committee of the American Bar Association.22 The other named supporter of Jenner was Dean Acheson,

Daily Herald: Ex-farmer, judge Crown remembered as 'wise,...

‎

$2.95 - Daily Herald - Mar 8, 1997

Crown clerked for US Supreme Court Justice Tom Clark from 1956 to 1959 specialized in criminal law at the Chicago firm of Jenner and Block,... Crown was the son of the late Rebecca and Henry Crown, chairman and founder .

http://articles.sfgate.com/1996-11-18/business/17787252_1_jfk-s-assassination-construction-firm-federal-contracts/3

ON ECONOMICS: -- How Kennedy Assassination Affected Some Stock Prices

November 18, 1996|By JONATHAN MARSHALL

A postscript for assassination buffs: No individual stood to lose more from the TFX scandal than Chicago investor Henry Crown, who owned 20 percent of General Dynamics. His personal attorney, Albert Jenner, became a senior staff attorney on the Warren Commission, in charge of investigating the possibility of a conspiracy.

...(quote) Gerald Ford Told FBI of Skeptics on Warren Commission

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8080702757.html

Background FBI FOIA released documents on AP web page:

http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives...ford/ford03.PDF

...Ford reported to DeLoach that at a top-secret meeting of the commission held on December 16, 1963 the commission’s general counsel, J.Lee Rankin, had been empowered to retain to "so-called technicians." The two who were under consideration were Francis W.H. Adams, a former New York City police commissioner, and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a Chicago lawyer. Ford, the documents disclose, could only remember the last names of the two men. The FBI then began an investigation to determine who "Adams" and "Jenner" were....(/quote)

Hoover had a duty obligation to disclose the IB Hale related surveillance reports to the WC counsel. We can safely assume he withheld it from the WC.

Hoover could have easily found out, to the point that we can assume he knew that Henry Crown's son, John J. Crown, had been a member of Albert Jenner's law firm since 1959, and not only was Jenner the personal attorney of the Crown family but he also represented this division of General Dynamics just weeks before his appointment to the WC:...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=A8sqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gc0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=840,5517179&dq=songbird+yet-they-still-controlled-the-mob&hl=en

..Songbird Was Murdered .

Palm Beach Post - Oct 26, 1963 by Drew Pearson

...They also reported that control of the underworld led to very high places. Some of the rulers of the underworld had become supposedly respected businessmen and politicians whose names were household words in Chicago. Some of them, it was stated, had reformed.

Yet they still controlled the mob. In this respect infor mation was much more impor tant than that of Joe Valachi. However, the Justice Depart ment in...

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22it+led+to+very+high+places%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a#q=%22it+led+to+very+high+places%22&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbm=bks&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wp&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=7694d34fae9de011&biw=790&bih=476

Diaries, 1949-1959: Volume 1

Drew Pearson, Tyler Abell - 1974 - 592 pages - Snippet view

Tom Clark told me afterward that it led to very high places. J. Edgar Hoover intimated the same thing. He said the people Ragen pointed to had now reformed. I learned later that it pointed to the Hilton hotel chain, Henry Crown,

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=0NUzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=S-sFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2665,3903821&dq=conrad+hilton+virginia+warren&hl=en

It- ..if .Earl .Wilson .Via .Tasr> .Guys, Gals, Gags,...

Miami News - Jan 26, 1956

whether pretty and popular Virginia Warren, the Chief Justice's daughter, may marry her most attentive escort, Conrad Hilton ....

http://www.google.com/search?q=hilton+plane+mrs+warren&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a#q=hilton+plane+mrs+warren&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&tbm=nws&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:1958,cd_max:1958&sa=X&ei=W5beTe4OiOmBB5_NsOUK&ved=0CBIQpwUoCA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=73a5782601ead03&biw=790&bih=476

AIRLINER TURNS BACK; Hilton Party on Plane Included Mrs....

- New York Times - Nov 29, 1958

The purpose of Mr. Hilton'sl !flight to Berlin was to open the newest Hilton hotel, the Berlin!Hilton. The plane s passengers included Mrs. Earl Warren,

http://books.google.com/books?id=QCoXAAAAIAAJ&q=hoy+crown+cook+pump+room&dq=hoy+crown+cook+pump+room&ei=S5BeSYiUCZPGyASQsIC-CA"]http://books.google.com/books?id=QCoXAAAAI...UCZPGyASQsIC-CA[/url]

Kup's Chicago‎ - Page 53

by Irv Kupcinet - Chicago (Ill.) - 1962 - 286 pages

"But I'ma hotelman," Hoy protested. "I know nothing about mixing concrete. ...

"Maybe not", said Crown. "But without being a cook you've done an excellent job of running the Pump Room. Yielding to Crown's persuasion, Hoy began a new career at age forty-" ...

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=hoy...user_hdate=1960

Division Chief Raised By General Dynamics

- New York Times - May 6, 1960

Patrick H. Hoy General Dynamics Corporation announced yesterday the election of Patrick H. Hoy as a senior vice president of the company. ...

HOTEL MAN IN NEW POST; Hoy Becoming President of Material Service

- New York Times - Mar 31, 1960

His appointment was announced jointly yesterday by Frank Pace Jr., chairman of General Dynamics, and Henry Crown, chairman of Material Service. Mr. Hoy had ...

http://books.google.com/books?q=crown%20ch...sa=N&tab=np

The Defender: The Story of General Dynamics‎ - Page 228

by Roger Franklin - Technology & Engineering - 1986 - 385 pages

Crown rapidly demolished the faint hope that he would stay close to Chicago and

... He brought in several Chicago cronies, including one, Patrick H. Hoy, ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=QJ-WirJls...rch_s&cad=0

Deep Politics and the Death of JFK‎ - Page 179

by Peter Dale Scott - History - 1996

"....Blakey chose to link Rosselli to Trafficante, by citing his "management role" in

the Havana Sans Souci casino. More pertinent was probably the fact that the Sans Scouci was operated, at this time, by Dave Yaras and Lenny Patrick, the suspected killers of James Ragen (9 AH 948). Also at this time, Rosselli's most constant companion was "Major" Charkes "Babe" Baron, a suspected murderer who was also a brigadier-general in the Illinois National Guard. Baron was a protege of Chicago Democratic machine leader Jake Arvey, as were Yaras and Patrick; and an even closer friend of Patrick Hoy, the Henry Crown employee at General Dynamics who arranged for Sidney Korshak to work for Hilton Hotels. Hoy was also the general manager of the Sherman Hotel in Chicago, a hangout frequented ny Ruby and Jones in 1947 (22 WH 366; 24 WH 518 Chicago crime commission, report, 1963)"....