Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Doug Weldon]

If I were an armchair psychiatrist instead of an armchair detective, I would

diagnose this affair as a case of a person with an extreme need to feel

sexually attractive. At the center of the story is a wild immediate sexual

attraction between two strangers, wild passionate trysts arranged by crime

bosses, promises to meet in romantic places for a honeymoon (never mind

that both were married). Wild illicit sex with a historic figure is not uncommon.

How many men had such thoughts about Marilyn Monroe, for instance? Another

form of this is women who fall in love with convicted murderers. The handsome

Ted Bundy, convicted mass murderer, was besieged with romantic mail from

women.

It is more than a passing observation that most of JVB's most passionate

devotees are MEN who have met her in person or spoken at length with her

on the phone. To these she seems to have some sort of charisma that appeals

to some persons and not others...much like "falling in love" defies rational

explanation. She has "something" which makes certain types of men "fall

in love" with her. Her passionate supporters show every sign of "being in love".

If her tales DID NOT INCLUDE THE ALLEGED ROMANCE, they might be much

more believable. It is unlikely that the romance happened, so it is unlikely

that all the other imaginings happened.

It reminds me somewhat of my 27-year career with a large ad agency. In

addition to being the lead art director, I also was "personnel director" (largely

because nobody else wanted to do it). It was my task to interview all job

seekers and recommend hiring or not. I developed a knack of recognizing

phonies as well as "comers". I am proud that much of our agency success

came from the great team I helped assemble. At our peak, we had 50+

employees; today the agency has fewer than ten. Only once did I pick a

dud. She was a dazzling brunette who claimed to be an artist. She had

been recommended by the son of a client. I allowed myself to be more

impressed by her beauty than by her art samples and recommended that

we hire her. Annette did not last three months. She was a phony. Ever

since I learned that lesson, I pay more attention to credentials than to

personal appeal. And I think I know a phony better than most.

Jack

Mr Fetzer,

Early on, I asked you a couple of questions. So far, there has been no answers. As this thread - hopefully - is fading out, I'd like to repeat those questions to you.

1. Where do you draw the line? When are you going to realize that this is not a question of "Judyth detractors"?

2. What conclusions do you draw from her consistent lying about her asylum process? None?

And, thirdly, as a matter of this thread:

3. Have you perhaps now realized that you are not the center of the Universe? Not even the center of the JFK assassination research? When you instantly dismiss Mr Harris, of whom "you've never heard", as a phony, could it possibly occur to you that things are happening without your knowledge? And have been, for years?

Too bad the late Rich DellaRosa is no longer with us. He investigated the Judyth myths

for about nine months nearly ten years ago (long before Jim ever heard of JVB). Rich

finally had enough of her myths, evasiveness and ever-changing "facts", and told her

so. She departed his forum when she realized she had gained no converts there. She

will depart this forum eventually also, since the only supporter she has converted here

is Jim. What Jim is unaware of, as you say, is that all of this is a rehash of what happened

years before. It is new to Jim. It is deja vu all over again to most of us.

Jack

Mr White,

It seems to me that many are those who have been blinded by JVB. Most notably those who have met her in person. Your description of "a moving target" is indeed exactly what this is about. The story keeps changing, and the attempts to discredit those who disagree, are becoming more outlandish day by day.

DellaRosa, Ferrell and others who knew her, all seem to have come to the same conclusion.

Mr Fetzer stated very early in this thread that "he didn't know her story". At best, this explains why he's now apparently surprised by the number of people now coming "out of the woodwork".

Jack:

Bundy actually got married while on trial for murder. In Florida all that was required was to say your vows before a judge. During a hearing Bundy asked his bride to be if she would marry him. When she replied yes, they werre legally married.

I must now confess that I was engaged in a torrid love affair with Marilyn Monroe. Though I was only seven years old I was quite sophisticated and my second grade science class was doing different projects that caught the personal attention of Dwight Eisenhower. I was living in the D.C. area at the time and it made it easy to whisk me away during recess to work on weapons grade plutonium projects. I was assigned a handler and taught myself 12 languages, including Russian and Mandarin Chinese. I was then introduced to Miss Monroe and the mutual attraction was immediate. We knew the age discrepency would attract attention and we had to be very discreet. Many people noticed that Robert (Kennnedy) had seven letters in the first name and that "Douglas" had eight so we knew our time together would be brief. Two days before she died I actually composed the song "I will always love you" and she sang it for me and told me that if I ever met a female singer named "Whitney" with a Texas connection in her name I was to give the song to her to record. We agreed to meet again in Atlanta,Georgia upon the breakup of the Soviet Union. Some people confuse this with the state of Georgia which I do not know if it existed at that time as I was forced to be late to my geography classes. I will always wonder what happened to our "love child."

Best,

Doug

"

[Doug Weldon]

If I were an armchair psychiatrist instead of an armchair detective, I would

diagnose this affair as a case of a person with an extreme need to feel

sexually attractive. At the center of the story is a wild immediate sexual

attraction between two strangers, wild passionate trysts arranged by crime

bosses, promises to meet in romantic places for a honeymoon (never mind

that both were married). Wild illicit sex with a historic figure is not uncommon.

How many men had such thoughts about Marilyn Monroe, for instance? Another

form of this is women who fall in love with convicted murderers. The handsome

Ted Bundy, convicted mass murderer, was besieged with romantic mail from

women.

It is more than a passing observation that most of JVB's most passionate

devotees are MEN who have met her in person or spoken at length with her

on the phone. To these she seems to have some sort of charisma that appeals

to some persons and not others...much like "falling in love" defies rational

explanation. She has "something" which makes certain types of men "fall

in love" with her. Her passionate supporters show every sign of "being in love".

If her tales DID NOT INCLUDE THE ALLEGED ROMANCE, they might be much

more believable. It is unlikely that the romance happened, so it is unlikely

that all the other imaginings happened.

It reminds me somewhat of my 27-year career with a large ad agency. In

addition to being the lead art director, I also was "personnel director" (largely

because nobody else wanted to do it). It was my task to interview all job

seekers and recommend hiring or not. I developed a knack of recognizing

phonies as well as "comers". I am proud that much of our agency success

came from the great team I helped assemble. At our peak, we had 50+

employees; today the agency has fewer than ten. Only once did I pick a

dud. She was a dazzling brunette who claimed to be an artist. She had

been recommended by the son of a client. I allowed myself to be more

impressed by her beauty than by her art samples and recommended that

we hire her. Annette did not last three months. She was a phony. Ever

since I learned that lesson, I pay more attention to credentials than to

personal appeal. And I think I know a phony better than most.

Jack

Mr Fetzer,

Early on, I asked you a couple of questions. So far, there has been no answers. As this thread - hopefully - is fading out, I'd like to repeat those questions to you.

1. Where do you draw the line? When are you going to realize that this is not a question of "Judyth detractors"?

2. What conclusions do you draw from her consistent lying about her asylum process? None?

And, thirdly, as a matter of this thread:

3. Have you perhaps now realized that you are not the center of the Universe? Not even the center of the JFK assassination research? When you instantly dismiss Mr Harris, of whom "you've never heard", as a phony, could it possibly occur to you that things are happening without your knowledge? And have been, for years?

Too bad the late Rich DellaRosa is no longer with us. He investigated the Judyth myths

for about nine months nearly ten years ago (long before Jim ever heard of JVB). Rich

finally had enough of her myths, evasiveness and ever-changing "facts", and told her

so. She departed his forum when she realized she had gained no converts there. She

will depart this forum eventually also, since the only supporter she has converted here

is Jim. What Jim is unaware of, as you say, is that all of this is a rehash of what happened

years before. It is new to Jim. It is deja vu all over again to most of us.

Jack

Mr White,

It seems to me that many are those who have been blinded by JVB. Most notably those who have met her in person. Your description of "a moving target" is indeed exactly what this is about. The story keeps changing, and the attempts to discredit those who disagree, are becoming more outlandish day by day.

DellaRosa, Ferrell and others who knew her, all seem to have come to the same conclusion.

Mr Fetzer stated very early in this thread that "he didn't know her story". At best, this explains why he's now apparently surprised by the number of people now coming "out of the woodwork".

Jack:

Bundy actually got married while on trial for murder. In Florida all that was required was to say your vows before a judge. During a hearing Bundy asked his bride to be if she would marry him. When she replied yes, they werre legally married.

I must now confess that I was engaged in a torrid love affair with Marilyn Monroe. Though I was only seven years old I was quite sophisticated and my second grade science class was doing different projects that caught the personal attention of Dwight Eisenhower. I was living in the D.C. area at the time and it made it easy to whisk me away during recess to work on weapons grade plutonium projects. I was assigned a handler and taught myself 12 languages, including Russian and Mandarin Chinese. I was then introduced to Miss Monroe and the mutual attraction was immediate. We knew the age discrepency would attract attention and we had to be very discreet. Many people noticed that Robert (Kennnedy) had seven letters in the first name and that "Douglas" had eight so we knew our time together would be brief. Two days before she died I actually composed the song "I will always love you" and she sang it for me and told me that if I ever met a female singer named "Whitney" with a Texas connection in her name I was to give the song to her to record. We agreed to meet again in Atlanta,Georgia upon the breakup of the Soviet Union. Some people confuse this with the state of Georgia which I do not know if it existed at that time as I was forced to be late to my geography classes. I will always wonder what happened to our "love child."

Best,

Doug

"

Whoops, Robert has six letters and Douglas has seven. The other version was taken from a stolen computer disc.

[Barb Junkkarinen]

I must now confess that I was engaged in a torrid love affair with Marilyn Monroe. Though I was only seven years old I was quite sophisticated and my second grade science class was doing different projects that caught the personal attention of Dwight Eisenhower. I was living in the D.C. area at the time and it made it easy to whisk me away during recess to work on weapons grade plutonium projects. I was assigned a handler and taught myself 12 languages, including Russian and Mandarin Chinese. I was then introduced to Miss Monroe and the mutual attraction was immediate. We knew the age discrepency would attract attention and we had to be very discreet. Many people noticed that Robert (Kennnedy) had seven letters in the first name and that "Douglas" had eight so we knew our time together would be brief. Two days before she died I actually composed the song "I will always love you" and she sang it for me and told me that if I ever met a female singer named "Whitney" with a Texas connection in her name I was to give the song to her to record. We agreed to meet again in Atlanta,Georgia upon the breakup of the Soviet Union. Some people confuse this with the state of Georgia which I do not know if it existed at that time as I was forced to be late to my geography classes. I will always wonder what happened to our "love child."

Best,

Doug

HAHAHA! Why, Doug, you surprise me ... delightfully so!

Bests,

Barb :-)

Edited April 18, 2010 by Barb Junkkarinen

[Jack White]

Is this a tryout for writing for Saturday Night Live, or for a replacement writer for JVB?

It is much funnier than her torrid romance. Who would believe that such a child prodigy

could have an affair with MM, despite the age difference? Since you were so close to Ike,

did you write his BEWARE OF THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX farewell speech?

Jack

If I were an armchair psychiatrist instead of an armchair detective, I would

diagnose this affair as a case of a person with an extreme need to feel

sexually attractive. At the center of the story is a wild immediate sexual

attraction between two strangers, wild passionate trysts arranged by crime

bosses, promises to meet in romantic places for a honeymoon (never mind

that both were married). Wild illicit sex with a historic figure is not uncommon.

How many men had such thoughts about Marilyn Monroe, for instance? Another

form of this is women who fall in love with convicted murderers. The handsome

Ted Bundy, convicted mass murderer, was besieged with romantic mail from

women.

It is more than a passing observation that most of JVB's most passionate

devotees are MEN who have met her in person or spoken at length with her

on the phone. To these she seems to have some sort of charisma that appeals

to some persons and not others...much like "falling in love" defies rational

explanation. She has "something" which makes certain types of men "fall

in love" with her. Her passionate supporters show every sign of "being in love".

If her tales DID NOT INCLUDE THE ALLEGED ROMANCE, they might be much

more believable. It is unlikely that the romance happened, so it is unlikely

that all the other imaginings happened.

It reminds me somewhat of my 27-year career with a large ad agency. In

addition to being the lead art director, I also was "personnel director" (largely

because nobody else wanted to do it). It was my task to interview all job

seekers and recommend hiring or not. I developed a knack of recognizing

phonies as well as "comers". I am proud that much of our agency success

came from the great team I helped assemble. At our peak, we had 50+

employees; today the agency has fewer than ten. Only once did I pick a

dud. She was a dazzling brunette who claimed to be an artist. She had

been recommended by the son of a client. I allowed myself to be more

impressed by her beauty than by her art samples and recommended that

we hire her. Annette did not last three months. She was a phony. Ever

since I learned that lesson, I pay more attention to credentials than to

personal appeal. And I think I know a phony better than most.

Jack

Mr Fetzer,

Early on, I asked you a couple of questions. So far, there has been no answers. As this thread - hopefully - is fading out, I'd like to repeat those questions to you.

1. Where do you draw the line? When are you going to realize that this is not a question of "Judyth detractors"?

2. What conclusions do you draw from her consistent lying about her asylum process? None?

And, thirdly, as a matter of this thread:

3. Have you perhaps now realized that you are not the center of the Universe? Not even the center of the JFK assassination research? When you instantly dismiss Mr Harris, of whom "you've never heard", as a phony, could it possibly occur to you that things are happening without your knowledge? And have been, for years?

Too bad the late Rich DellaRosa is no longer with us. He investigated the Judyth myths

for about nine months nearly ten years ago (long before Jim ever heard of JVB). Rich

finally had enough of her myths, evasiveness and ever-changing "facts", and told her

so. She departed his forum when she realized she had gained no converts there. She

will depart this forum eventually also, since the only supporter she has converted here

is Jim. What Jim is unaware of, as you say, is that all of this is a rehash of what happened

years before. It is new to Jim. It is deja vu all over again to most of us.

Jack

Mr White,

It seems to me that many are those who have been blinded by JVB. Most notably those who have met her in person. Your description of "a moving target" is indeed exactly what this is about. The story keeps changing, and the attempts to discredit those who disagree, are becoming more outlandish day by day.

DellaRosa, Ferrell and others who knew her, all seem to have come to the same conclusion.

Mr Fetzer stated very early in this thread that "he didn't know her story". At best, this explains why he's now apparently surprised by the number of people now coming "out of the woodwork".

Jack:

Bundy actually got married while on trial for murder. In Florida all that was required was to say your vows before a judge. During a hearing Bundy asked his bride to be if she would marry him. When she replied yes, they werre legally married.

I must now confess that I was engaged in a torrid love affair with Marilyn Monroe. Though I was only seven years old I was quite sophisticated and my second grade science class was doing different projects that caught the personal attention of Dwight Eisenhower. I was living in the D.C. area at the time and it made it easy to whisk me away during recess to work on weapons grade plutonium projects. I was assigned a handler and taught myself 12 languages, including Russian and Mandarin Chinese. I was then introduced to Miss Monroe and the mutual attraction was immediate. We knew the age discrepency would attract attention and we had to be very discreet. Many people noticed that Robert (Kennnedy) had seven letters in the first name and that "Douglas" had eight so we knew our time together would be brief. Two days before she died I actually composed the song "I will always love you" and she sang it for me and told me that if I ever met a female singer named "Whitney" with a Texas connection in her name I was to give the song to her to record. We agreed to meet again in Atlanta,Georgia upon the breakup of the Soviet Union. Some people confuse this with the state of Georgia which I do not know if it existed at that time as I was forced to be late to my geography classes. I will always wonder what happened to our "love child."

Best,

Doug

"

[Jack White]

Although I have been resisting the urge to further engage in this debate, I just couldn't resist. Please EVERYONE involved in this thread...indulge me by listening to this. Believe it or not, it's very specific to the topic.

Audio clip:

HI-LARIOUS! Worthy of Vaughan Meader! Applause. :)

Is that Monk doing the audio? Comedy! Satire! History! and Double-talk too!

You missed your true calling!

Jack :clapping

[Doug Weldon]

Although I have been resisting the urge to further engage in this debate, I just couldn't resist. Please EVERYONE involved in this thread...indulge me by listening to this. Believe it or not, it's very specific to the topic.

Audio clip:

HI-LARIOUS! Worthy of Vaughan Meader! Applause. :)

Is that Monk doing the audio? Comedy! Satire! History! and Double-talk too!

You missed your true calling!

Jack :clapping

Monk:

This is great!!

Doug

[Greg Burnham]

Thanks Jack! Yeah, that's me.

A little known trivia: When I was about 4 1/2 or 5 yrs old, my mother bought the Vaughan Meader album, "The First Family" and I listened to it several times a day because my mom loved it so much. I was able to do an impression of Meader doing an impression of JFK so well that my mom had me do it when guests came over! I would just tell the jokes from the album in the "JFK" accent and guests would crack up. I didn't know what they meant or why they were funny--but, there it is.

Then, she bought another album called: "The Red House" which was a satirical comedy album about the Kremlin. Yep--I learned to tell those jokes in a Russian accent! Of course, it was the "height of the Cold War" so those jokes didn't go over as well!

GO_SECURE

monk

Although I have been resisting the urge to further engage in this debate, I just couldn't resist. Please EVERYONE involved in this thread...indulge me by listening to this. Believe it or not, it's very specific to the topic.

Audio clip:

HI-LARIOUS! Worthy of Vaughan Meader! Applause. :)

Is that Monk doing the audio? Comedy! Satire! History! and Double-talk too!

You missed your true calling!

Jack :clapping

Edited April 18, 2010 by Greg Burnham

[Jack White]

You should get an agent and work Vegas!

Jack

Thanks Jack! Yeah, that's me.

A little known trivia: When I was about 4 1/2 or 5 yrs old, my mother bought the Vaughan Meader album, "The First Family" and I listened to it several times a day because my mom loved it so much. I was able to do an impression of Meader doing an impression of JFK so well that my mom had me do it when guests came over! I would just tell the jokes from the album in the "JFK" accent and guests would crack up. I didn't know what they meant or why they were funny--but, there it is.

Then, she bought another album called: "The Red House" which was a satirical comedy album about the Kremlin. Yep--I learned to tell those jokes in a Russian accent! Of course, it was the "height of the Cold War" so those jokes didn't go over as well!

GO_SECURE

monk

Although I have been resisting the urge to further engage in this debate, I just couldn't resist. Please EVERYONE involved in this thread...indulge me by listening to this. Believe it or not, it's very specific to the topic.

Audio clip:

HI-LARIOUS! Worthy of Vaughan Meader! Applause. :)

Is that Monk doing the audio? Comedy! Satire! History! and Double-talk too!

You missed your true calling!

Jack :clapping

Edited April 18, 2010 by Jack White

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Thanks Jack! Yeah, that's me.

A little known trivia: When I was about 4 1/2 or 5 yrs old, my mother bought the Vaughan Meader album, "The First Family" and I listened to it several times a day because my mom loved it so much. I was able to do an impression of Meader doing an impression of JFK so well that my mom had me do it when guests came over! I would just tell the jokes from the album in the "JFK" accent and guests would crack up. I didn't know what they meant or why they were funny--but, there it is.

Then, she bought another album called: "The Red House" which was a satirical comedy album about the Kremlin. Yep--I learned to tell those jokes in a Russian accent! Of course, it was the "height of the Cold War" so those jokes didn't go over as well!

What a great story ... and you really do him well! That's just great ...

Barb :-)

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Jim Fetzer said:

Douglas Weldon does a soft shoe to spare himself embarrassment. Well, nice try but

no cigar. If Weldon had known, he could not possibly have made such an unqualified

endorsement of BOTH Lifton AND Armstrong, especially given how "cautious" he is

as a student of JFK.

Considering the fact that Weldon pushes the most far-out theory about the limo, having it beamed 850 miles from DC for somebody in the Rouge to see, it is truly ironic to see him now calling his research 'cautious'. LOL

Dear Dorothy Gale,

I see you're really trying push the debate forward with your two simultaneous postings that consist of...

...well, absolutely NOTHING.

Maybe it will best if you stick to the topic of rotten fish from now on?

With any luck, maybe the Wizard will give Lee Farley a sense of humor.

You weren't jesting when you said it. You seem to forget people can read. :-)

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Mr Fetzer,

Early on, I asked you a couple of questions. So far, there has been no answers. As this thread - hopefully - is fading out, I'd like to repeat those questions to you.

1. Where do you draw the line? When are you going to realize that this is not a question of "Judyth detractors"?

2. What conclusions do you draw from her consistent lying about her asylum process? None?

And, thirdly, as a matter of this thread:

3. Have you perhaps now realized that you are not the center of the Universe? Not even the center of the JFK assassination research? When you instantly dismiss Mr Harris, of whom "you've never heard", as a phony, could it possibly occur to you that things are happening without your knowledge? And have been, for years?

Hi Glenn,

There are several questions that were asked, issues raised, documents posted ... that received no response. What Judyth, with Fetzer's help, did, was steer the focus off of her and her claims and onto other people and other issues, especially Jack. I could feign surprise. :-) And given that Fetzer, as you and Jack have both noted, has himself said that he does not know Judyth's story, one would think he would be interested in the answers to those questions himself!. His lengthy comments deriding researchers and even friends while extolling the virtues of Judyth, don't indicate that he even read...or absorbed ... what was raised, nor that he has so much as one iota of any expected researcher curiosity about those items troubling to, or downright conflicting with, Judyth's claims.

Judyth criticized me for not reading the letter she received from Walter Reed, for instance ... and she even posted a new scan/photo of it for someone ... but as always, as I pointed out to her, she covered up the bottom of the first page of the letter. I asked why that was and asked Fetzer to have Judyth send him the entire letter so that it could be posted. No one can read what they cannot see. That letter appeared in her book, she sent it to Martin to have Tony Marsh put it up on his site, and she posted it here. All three times it appears with the bottom of the first page of that letter covered up so it cannot be seen/read ... or lopped off all together. No response to the request or the question.

I noted that Judyth claims both in her book and in a BlackOp radio interview to have a "sheaf" of documents detailing the apportionment of grants and other funding for her research ... and she even quoted from them on the radio show. Yet this "sheaf" has never been seen even though requested, and I requested it again in this thread. No response.

This "sheaf" would be very important documentation for her to produce given the information I was given by the American Cancer Society that they have no record of her having received ANYthing other than the $250 science fair prize .... and I posted 3 yrs of annual reports from the National Science Foundation, from whom she also claims funding, that show no Judy Vary received any funding for any project from them. No response to that information from Fetzer or Judyth. If she has this "sheaf" of documents proving her funding claims, why has it never been produced?

And more, of course, as you know ... as there was the asylum issue that you asked about after getting the documents and translating them, and others raised issues and questions as well.

Instead, Judyth turned the focus to other things ... like Harvey & Lee ... and onto Jack. The two Oswald theory, Armstrong's work and Jack's interest and belief in that theory predate Judyth emerging as a "witness." It has been debated for years ... some believe it, some don't. As *researchers* Fetzer and Judyth are both entitled to her opinion and to present her findings, thoughts, etc. But presenting it as "I am right, you are wrong, because I am a witness and I was there" is not credible because it is her credibility that is in question ... AND she has not been documented to have been a witness to anything regarding Oswald in the first place. Fetzer has fallen hook, line and sinker into allowing the "witness" to self verify her own claims. Yet he chastises others, including old friends, for their alleged lack of scholarship in research, logic and critical thinking? Please!

Harvey and Lee stands or falls on its own merit ... for anyone interested in debating that evidence or who can produce *valid* new evidence. It has nothing to do with Judyth's claims.

Judyth's story stands or falls on its own merit as well ... what evidence can or cannot be confirmed to prove claims that can be checked, thus bolstering her credibility ....or what claims *fail* the verification process, thereby bringing her credibity into even greater question.

It has been my experience, and that of others ...including Jack from things he has said here, that Judyth revels when she can ramble on, changing details, adding details, making excuses,etc ... but when the going gets tough, she is asked too many troubling questions or presented with too much that contradicts her story, she generally has either a crisis, or has to leave and won't be able to be at her computer or be on the net for some reason. And that is what, imo, happened here. And then, as also happened here, she is not available for questions ... but seems to always manage to get a message through to her post typer when there is something *she* wants to say.

As long as Judyth is part of the question ... she cannot be used as the answer.

It's taken on an old time tent revival sort of thing ... complete with damnation and Fetzer-fire meted out to those who dare to question rather than fall to their knees slain in the spirit of belief. There are pages and pages and pages of it that only serve to further divert where the focus should be.

If people really are interested in whether or not Judyth is, as Fetzer proclaims, "the real deal" ... then the focus needs to be on Judyth and her claims. What can be confirmed or denied. And if Judyth is the "real deal" ... both she and Fetzer should not only expect, but welcome that inquiry. Faith is for God, establishing facts that can help lead us to resolution of this case, requires something tangible.

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Jack,

A few questions for my friend, who has evidently gone off the deep end:

(1) Are you now practicing psychology/psychiatry without a license?

(2) Have you ever actually met or spoken with Judyth Vary Baker?

(3) Have you ever watched Nigel Turner's "The Love Affair"?

(4) Have you read MARY, FERRIE, AND THE MONEY VIRUS?

(5) Have you read Ed Haslam's DR. MARY'S MONKEY?

(6) Have you read my blog about Judyth Vary Baker?

(7) Have you listened to my 1-hour Haslem interview?

(8) Have you read my blog about DR. MARY'S MONKEY?

(9) Have you listened to Ed's 4-hour C2C interview?

(10) Are your opinions actually based upon research?

(11) Are you and Barb Junkkarinen now collaborators?

(12) What is the value of opinions not based on research?

Jim

If I were an armchair psychiatrist instead of an armchair detective, I would

diagnose this affair as a case of a person with an extreme need to feel

sexually attractive. At the center of the story is a wild immediate sexual

attraction between two strangers, wild passionate trysts arranged by crime

bosses, promises to meet in romantic places for a honeymoon (never mind

that both were married). Wild illicit sex with a historic figure is not uncommon.

How many men had such thoughts about Marilyn Monroe, for instance? Another

form of this is women who fall in love with convicted murderers. The handsome

Ted Bundy, convicted mass murderer, was besieged with romantic mail from

women.

It is more than a passing observation that most of JVB's most passionate

devotees are MEN who have met her in person or spoken at length with her

on the phone. To these she seems to have some sort of charisma that appeals

to some persons and not others...much like "falling in love" defies rational

explanation. She has "something" which makes certain types of men "fall

in love" with her. Her passionate supporters show every sign of "being in love".

If her tales DID NOT INCLUDE THE ALLEGED ROMANCE, they might be much

more believable. It is unlikely that the romance happened, so it is unlikely

that all the other imaginings happened.

It reminds me somewhat of my 27-year career with a large ad agency. In

addition to being the lead art director, I also was "personnel director" (largely

because nobody else wanted to do it). It was my task to interview all job

seekers and recommend hiring or not. I developed a knack of recognizing

phonies as well as "comers". I am proud that much of our agency success

came from the great team I helped assemble. At our peak, we had 50+

employees; today the agency has fewer than ten. Only once did I pick a

dud. She was a dazzling brunette who claimed to be an artist. She had

been recommended by the son of a client. I allowed myself to be more

impressed by her beauty than by her art samples and recommended that

we hire her. Annette did not last three months. She was a phony. Ever

since I learned that lesson, I pay more attention to credentials than to

personal appeal. And I think I know a phony better than most.

Jack

Mr Fetzer,

Early on, I asked you a couple of questions. So far, there has been no answers. As this thread - hopefully - is fading out, I'd like to repeat those questions to you.

1. Where do you draw the line? When are you going to realize that this is not a question of "Judyth detractors"?

2. What conclusions do you draw from her consistent lying about her asylum process? None?

And, thirdly, as a matter of this thread:

3. Have you perhaps now realized that you are not the center of the Universe? Not even the center of the JFK assassination research? When you instantly dismiss Mr Harris, of whom "you've never heard", as a phony, could it possibly occur to you that things are happening without your knowledge? And have been, for years?

Too bad the late Rich DellaRosa is no longer with us. He investigated the Judyth myths

for about nine months nearly ten years ago (long before Jim ever heard of JVB). Rich

finally had enough of her myths, evasiveness and ever-changing "facts", and told her

so. She departed his forum when she realized she had gained no converts there. She

will depart this forum eventually also, since the only supporter she has converted here

is Jim. What Jim is unaware of, as you say, is that all of this is a rehash of what happened

years before. It is new to Jim. It is deja vu all over again to most of us.

Jack

Mr White,

It seems to me that many are those who have been blinded by JVB. Most notably those who have met her in person. Your description of "a moving target" is indeed exactly what this is about. The story keeps changing, and the attempts to discredit those who disagree, are becoming more outlandish day by day.

DellaRosa, Ferrell and others who knew her, all seem to have come to the same conclusion.

Mr Fetzer stated very early in this thread that "he didn't know her story". At best, this explains why he's now apparently surprised by the number of people now coming "out of the woodwork".

Edited April 25, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

PSY OPS EXPERT COMMENTS ON ED HASLAM'S RESEARCH

NOTE 1:

Jim, I cannot overemphasize the importance of Ed Haslam's excellent research. If this story ever breaks into the mainstream and it sure seem possible now, he is going to be appearing on some network shows. Certainly he should be doing so, being how important his discoveries are about Dr. Sherman, David Ferrie and others. And his book should be a top seller like Jesse Ventura's new book. It is an important and very timely book. And anyone who has young kids or is planning to have children should read it it and start carefully considering the whole issue of vaccination side effects and risks to long term health.

Ed is a very restrained humble man that doesn't toot his own horn. But he deserves very high commendations for his excellent far reaching research. His research was very carefully conducted, conservative in its claims and will yield some very far researching effects eventually in the medical immunology/vaccine research community.

This man has done a great public service to us all by exposing this important history and its ramifications for causing diseases in a process largely unknown to the public at large.

Jim, more evidence supporting some of the research discoveries of Ed Haslam and reports by Judyth Vary. Yes to many their information on contaminated vaccines seemed outrageous. Now more proof is coming out. It turns out the manufacturing of vaccines is very, very problematic and contamination is a very big unresolved problem.

NOTE 2:

Jim, this is serious business as far as the general health and a legitimate govt commission (not a cover-up) needs to be set up to investigate all aspects of this matter, including the new evidence now coming out of "stealth viruses" as a cause of autism, cancer, chronic fatigue syndrome, arthritis, autoimmune disease, etc., etc.

This really is extensive criminal negligence carried on for many years and the actual harm to the public is astronomical.

This is a very important video clip. Stay tuned because this thread is starting to get pulled and it will not surprise you where it eventually leads to (the JFK Assassination, Judyth Vary, and Ed Haslam's research).

The FDA Shuts Down Common Infant Vaccine After Startling Discovery

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles...-pig-virus.aspx

Edited April 25, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

FOR THOSE WITH A SERIOUS INTEREST IN RESEARCH

(FORWARDED BY JUDYTH)

CANCER-CAUSING PIG VIRUS - RECALL OF VACCINE

The FDA Shuts Down Common Infant Vaccine After Startling Discovery

Posted by Dr. Mercola | April 17 2010 | 26,611 views

“U.S. federal health authorities recommended … that doctors suspend using Rotarix, one of two vaccines licensed in the U.S. against rotavirus, saying the vaccine is contaminated with material from a pig virus,” CNN reports.

The Rotarix vaccine, which is made by GlaxoSmithKline and was approved by the FDA in 2008, has already been given to about 1 million U.S. children along with 30 million worldwide. The vaccine was found to contain DNA from porcine circovirus 1.

“The FDA learned about the contamination after an academic research team using a novel technique to look for viruses in a range of vaccines found the material in GlaxoSmithKline's product and told the company,” FDA Commissioner Dr. Margaret Hamburg told CNN.

Sources:

CNN March 22, 2010

Dr. Mercola's Comments:

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One million U.S. children, and about 30 million worldwide, have already received GlaxoSmithKline’s Rotarix vaccine. Now a research team has discovered it is contaminated with “a substantial amount” of DNA from a pig virus.

What is pig virus DNA doing in a vaccine intended to prevent rotavirus disease, which causes severe diarrhea and dehydration?

It’s anybody’s guess, although CNN reported that GlaxoSmitthKline detected the substance in the cell bank and the seed used to make the vaccine, “suggesting its presence from the early stages of vaccine development.”

It is actually common for vaccines to contain various animal matter, including foreign animal tissues containing genetic material (DNA/RNA), but even FDA Commissioner Dr. Margaret Hamburg told CNN:

"It [Pig virus DNA] should not be in this vaccine product and we want to understand how it got there.

It's not an easy call and we spent many long hours debating the pros and cons but, because we have an alternative product and because the background rates of this disease are not so severe in this country, we felt that the judicious thing to do was to take a pause, to really ask the critical questions about what this material was doing in the vaccine, how it got there."

Disturbing Findings in Rotarix and Two Other Common Childhood Vaccines

Dr. Eric Delwart is the researcher who, along with colleagues, made the discovery of contamination in Rotarix. Their intent was reportedly to “show that live attenuated vaccine only contained the expected viral genomes and no other,” but what they found told a different story.

Using new technology to test eight infectious attenuated viral vaccines, the results showed three of the vaccines contained “unexpected viral sequences”:

1. A measles vaccine was found to contain low levels of the retrovirus avian leukosis virus

2. Rotateq, Merck’s rotavirus vaccine, was found to contain a virus similar to simian (monkey) retrovirus

3. Rotarix (GlaxoSmithKine’s rotavirus vaccine) was found to contain “significant levels” of porcine cirovirus 1

So in their tests, nearly 40 percent of the vaccines they tested contained viral contaminants. The implications of these findings on the alleged safety of the vaccine supply remains to be seen, but clearly there is contamination occurring that was a complete surprise to researchers, health officials and vaccine manufacturers alike.

As Barbara Loe Fisher, founder of the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC), said in her commentary on the Rotarix contamination issue:

“There are lots of questions about how the manufacturer of Rotarix vaccine and the FDA both missed the pig virus DNA contaminating the original seed stock and all doses of Rotarix vaccine given to more than one million American children in the past few years.

Is there state-of-the-art technology that is being used by private laboratories but not by drug companies and the FDA?

Why did the independent team of scientists, who found the contamination, notify the vaccine manufacturer first rather than also immediately reporting their finding directly to the FDA?

What about the significance of finding bird viral DNA in measles vaccine and the monkey viral DNA in RotaTeq vaccine?”

There are clearly a lot of unanswered questions right now. At the very least, it certainly makes you wonder what other “unknown” contaminants are lurking in vaccines. At worst, we could be injecting children with substances that could potentially cause serious health problems down the road.

Animal Ingredients Common in Vaccines

You should know that it is very common for vaccine manufacturers to use cells from animals and birds in their manufacturing process.

To put this in perspective, Barbara Loe Fisher has explained what animal material is par for the course in manufacturing the Rotarix vaccine for your children:

“Rotarix is a genetically engineered vaccine that GSK created by isolating human rotavirus strain infecting a child in Cincinnati and using African Green monkey kidney cells to produce the original viral seed stock from which all Rotarix vaccine has been made.

In the FDA licensing process, Rotarix had to meet certain FDA standards, that included demonstrating the vaccine was not contaminated with, for example TSE (Transmissable Spongiform Encephalopathy or “mad cow” disease, a brain wasting disease) or with cow viruses because bovine (cow) serum was used to prepare the original viral seed stock.

Porcine trypsin, an enzyme in the pancreatic juice of a pig, was also used to make the viral seed stock.”

So the fact that Rotarix contains animal material is not a surprise … it’s the type of animal material, an unexpected variety, that has even the FDA raising their eyebrows.

Why it’s Dangerous to Have Various Animal DNA in Vaccines …

Both the FDA and GlaxoSmithKline spokespeople continue to state that no safety risk has been uncovered from the contamination, at least not yet.

Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at the National Institutes of Health, said “a substantial amount” of the DNA was found in the vaccine. But, he stressed, “there is no evidence that it causes any disease. … There is no evidence that it ever does anything.”

Dr. Paul Offit added, “The PCV1 virus they found is an orphan virus, i.e., it is not associated with disease”.

Of course there are no studies provided or have ever been done to show this, it doesn’t stop them from making these statements without any facts to back up their safety assurance, despite the fact that SV40 from monkeys has been associated with cancer in multiple studies.

History has shown that it can indeed be very dangerous when an animal virus unintentionally enters the vaccine supply.

During the 1950s and 1960s, the polio vaccine, which is still given in the United States, typically four times during a child's first 16 months of life, was widely contaminated with the monkey virus, SV40, which had gotten into the vaccine during the manufacturing process (monkey kidney cells, where SV40 thrived, were used to develop polio vaccines).

In lab tests, the virus was found to cause several different types of cancer, including brain cancer, and now SV40 is showing up in a variety of human cancers such as lung, brain, bone and lymphatic.

According to the authors of The Virus and the Vaccine: The True Story of a Cancer-Causing Monkey Virus, Contaminated Polio Vaccine, and the Millions of Americans Exposed, leading scientists and government officials turned their heads to repeated studies showing that SV40 was in the vaccine, and even today some well-known agencies are still dismissing study results.

The virus is even showing up in children too young to have received the contaminated vaccine, and some experts are now suggesting the contaminated virus may have been in the polio vaccine up until as late as 1999.

It is because of risks like this that Barbara Loe Fisher said:

“With mounting evidence that cross-species transfer of viruses can occur, the United States should no longer be using animal tissues to produce vaccines.”

This is also the same reason why Donald Miller, a cardiac surgeon and professor of surgery at the University of Washington, suggests in his more User-Friendly Vaccination Schedule that if you choose to get your child vaccinated against polio, you request only an inactivated (dead) virus vaccine that is cultured in human cells, not monkey kidney cells.

The United States no longer uses the live oral polio vaccine, so parents don't really have to ask for the injected version. However, if you live internationally, this is still an issue.

Are the Benefits of Rotarix Worth the Risks?

Even without a potential contamination scare, there are serious risks to every vaccine. So before vaccinating you really need to be certain that the benefits will outweigh those risks.

In the case of Rotarix, along with RotaTeq (a similar vaccine made by Merck), the benefits are very questionable, especially if you live in the United States or another developed country.

Rotavirus is very contagious and does cause more than 500,000 deaths in young children each year, but this is mostly in developing countries. In the United States, rotavirus is responsible for only “several dozen” deaths a year, according to Hamburg.

Typically, when a child in the United States contracts rotavirus, and most do, only rest and fluids are required to recover. This infection also provides natural immunity that will protect your child for life.

As NVIC writes

“The CDC estimates that, by age 3, almost every US child has had a case of rotavirus. Once a child has been infected with a strain of rotavirus, he or she develops antibodies and is either immune for life or has a milder case if infected with that same strain in the future.

Most healthy children, who are infected with several strains of rotavirus in the first few years of life, develop lifelong natural immunity to rotavirus infection.”

The rotavirus vaccine, meanwhile, has shown little benefit for rotavirus rates in the United States. According to NVIC:

“Today, even though almost all US infants receive vaccines for rotavirus, and despite efforts to improve the management of childhood rotavirus-associated diarrhea, hospitalizations of children in the U.S. with the disease have not significantly declined in the past two decades.”

Along with showing little benefit for a disease that is typically entirely treatable with fluids and rest, a recent drug review by the FDA found that Rotarix is associated with a significant increase in pneumonia-related deaths in children, compared to a placebo.

So with this particular vaccine, children are taking on serious risks with what appears to be very little benefit -- and that was before the contamination was uncovered.

The moral of the story?

Whatever you do, please do your homework before subjecting your children to any vaccine. A great way to get started is to simply use the Search Feature at the top of each of my Web pages and search my site as it contains a litany of research on vaccine safety, and the lack thereof.

Edited April 25, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Jack White]

My apologies to Monk for my "double-talk" comment. It was my

bad hearing plus the Boston accent which made a few words

in some sentences seem vague. I have listened to his comments

3 times now, and every word is eventually clear. I still give it

three rounds of applause. I hope all see the humor of this thread

like Monk has.

Jack :)