Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JIM'S RESPONSE TO JACK ABOUT AN INCREASINGLY IMPLAUSIBLE THEORY

The perfect note from Jack to end it all: another implied admission that he has

not been reading the posts from Judyth and me! I find this incredible, but not

inexplicable. He is so committed to HARVEY & LEE that he suppresses, denies,

or otherwise avoids any information at odds with that strange theory. Now he

tells us that (an increasingly long list of) many knew BOTH "Harvey" and "Lee",

including Robert, Marina, Marguerite, and Pic. Robert, of course, is my prime

candidate for having impersonated him on crucial occasions, since Jack's own

work has demonstrated that they were virtually dead ringers for one another.

Marguerite is an especially odd candidate of having known, since she was very

committed to her son's having worked as an agent for the government. If she

knew, she would have loudly announced it at every possible public opportunity.

There is a far simpler alternative, which Dean Hartwell and others, including me,

have proposed: the use of multiple impersonators from time to time, who had

extremely limited knowledge of their role in the larger scheme of things. Jack

needs to go back to his 1st "JUDYTH/JIM" thread and start reading the posts he

has heretofore ignored. When he has a reasoned response to the arguments we

have presented there, then it might be worthwhile to discuss these things with

him again. Until there, there is no point at all. He has demonstrated that he is

unwilling to consider any contrary evidence: his mind is completely close. He is

not alone in that regard, of course, but his case is exceptionally compelling as an

illustration of the irresponsible and unscientific defense of an implausible theory.

Apparently JVB is now try to confuse everyone. Now she says LHO lost a tooth at

Beauregard school, and has previously said that David Ferrie knocked one of his

teeth out at a CAP event. And she finds it impossible that the Murret family did

not know of both Lee and Harvey, EVEN THOUGH Dorothea Murret was in the CIA

and Marguerite knew of the plan, and likely asked for their cooperation. When

you can't convince 'em, confuse 'em.

Robert knew. Marina knew. Marguerite knew. John Pic knew.

Why not the Murret family? It is even possible that Dorothea recruited LHO

for the false defector program. It is interesting that she met with LHO in

Japan. Which LHO? I do not remember, but it likely was Lee, her cousin,

and not Harvey, whom she did not know.

Jack

A POSTSCRIPT FROM JUDYTH ABOUT HARVEY & LEE

NOTE: Jack needs to reread the studies of "Lee" losing a tooth at Beauregard Junior High,

where Lillian Murret, "Harvey's" aunt, remembered paying for his visit to the dentist. Are we

now to believe that Lillian and Dutz Murret knew both "Harvey" and "Lee"? That's a bit much.

There must be at least 20 posts exposing problems, mistakes, or blunders in HARVEY & LEE.

Multiple impostors with compartmentalized knowledge across time seems far more plausible.

JUDYTH COMMENTS:

THANKS SO MUCH, JIM...AND LOLA....AND DEAN! AND ED!

HAVE TO SIGN OFF, BUT MY HOPE IS THAT THE TRUTH WILL NOT HURT JACK OR ANYONE,

AND THAT THEY WILL LAY ASIDE A THEORY THAT IS SEVERELY RESTRICTING REAL RESEARCH INTO WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.

HERE'S HOW IT'S RESTRICTING IT:

1 ) THOSE WHO PUT SO MANY IMPOSTORS OUT THERE ARE NOT TRACKED DOWN, AS 'LEE' IS USED ALL OVER THE PLACE TO

ACCOUNT FOR :

A ) FAKED RECORDS,

B ) FAKE LHO APPEARANCES,

C ) RED HERRING TESTIMONIES THAT HIDE THE TRUTH ABOUT LEE

RE ALTERED AND FAKE (ON PURPOSE OR JUST WANTING 'FAME')TESTIMONIES. AFTER MUCH STUDY, THINKING--I REALIZED

THAT ARMSTRONG ACCEPTS THEM ALL ON SOME LEVEL, IF THEY FIT HIS THEORY.

I DO NOT HAVE THE BOOK YET [NOTE: I have sent her a copy], BUT ASK-- HOW MANY REPORTS ARE IN HIS BOOK THAT HE

ANALYZES AND REJECTS--WHAT REASONS DOES HE USE TO REJECT A REPORT?

WHAT ARE HIS REASONS FOR ACCEPTING SUCH A POOR WITNESS AS MYRA DAROUSE? JUST BECAUSE SHE FITS HIS THEORY?

I FIND SLOPPY RESEARCH AND ALTERED PHOTOS THAT ARE TROUBLING. AND WE HAVE JUST BEGUN.

IT IS NOT A SIN TO PUT RESEARCH BACK ON RACK.

I CANNOT THINK OF ANYTHING THAT HAS SO HOBBLED THE TRUTH AS HIS THEORY THAT HAS HAS DIVIDED RESEARCHERS TO

THE EXTENT OF RUPTURING FRIENDSHIPS. THINK OF IT.

THAT 'KATHY' CAN CONTINUE TO SAY 'HARVEY' THIS AND 'LEE' THAT AS IF IT WERE A FACT THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED...

ALMOST LIKE A RELIGIOUS BELIEF NOT ALLOWING ANY HERESY OR HERETIC--THEY WILL BE BURNED AT THE STAKE....

SO I ASKED MYSELF--HOW DOES ARMSTRONG THINK?

I HAVE REALIZED WHERE HIS WEAK SPOT IS:

2 ) ARMSTRONG TAKES WHAT'S IN THE WARREN COMMISSION RECORDS LITERALLY,

A ) HE ASSUMES THAT THE WARREN COMMISSION KNEW ABOUT 'LEE' AND 'HARVEY' BUT HID 'LEE' FROM SIGHT--OR ELSE

THE COMMISSION'S HANDLERS DID.

B ) THIS ASSUMPTION THEN GIVES HIM A BASIS FOR HUNTING ANY NEW EVIDENCE --BUT HE ONLY LOOKS FOR EVIDENCE

THAT SUPPORTS HIS THEORY.

BY THE WAY, THIS IS NOT SCIENTIFIC.

THIS IS WHAT MARKETERS DO FOR A PRODUCT.

IT IS HIS WORST FAULT, THIS MIND-SET.

HIS NEXT FLAW IS THAT HE CHOOSES TO BELIEVE THAT ALL REPORTS ARE ESSENTIALLY ACCURATE IF THEY FIT HIS HYPOTHESIS.

IF THEY DO NOT--FOR EXAMPLE, REJECTING ME AS A WITNESS BECAUSE I WAS NOT PREGNANT AT THE TIME, THEREFORE COULD

NOT 'POSE; AS MARINA--HE LIMITS HIS COLLECTION TO WHAT FITS HIS VISION.

IN FACT, THIS IS WHAT THE WARREN COMMISSION DID!

THE HABIT OF ANSWERING EVERY QUESTION WITH: "HARVEY AND LEE" IS THE SAME KIND OF THINKING THE WARREN COMMISSION

USED TO SAY "OSWALD SHOT KENNEDY."

IT REMINDS ME OF THE PHLOGISTON THEORY, SAME WAY OF THINKING:

Stahl outlined his medical theories in The True Theory of Medicine (1708) and the book had great influences throughout Europe.

The Becher/Stahl theory explained burning, oxidation, calcination (metal residue after combustion), and breathing in the following way:

* Flames extinguish because air becomes saturated with phlogiston.

* Charcoal leaves little residue upon burning because it is nearly pure phlogiston.

* Mice die in airtight space because air saturates with phlogiston.

* When heated, metals are restored because phlogiston transferred from charcoal to calx.

Becher/Stahl derived these conclusions outside the laboratory while in the laboratory others were finding that metals such as magnesium

gained weight during combustion. If phlogiston is given off when a metal forms a calx, why does the calx weigh more than the metal?

Stahl attributed the weight increase to air entering the metal to fill the vacuum left after phlogiston escaped.

THIS IDEA IS STUNNING AND SOUNDS LOGICAL --BUT IS ABOUT AS SCIENTIFIC AS THE PHLOGISTON THEORY BY EXPLAINING 'EVERYTHING'

AND OBSTRUCTING OUR VIEW OF WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. DON;T GET ME WRONG--THEY HAD IMPOSTORS OUT THERE--MULTIPLE ONES,

WHO, AS DEAN POINTED OUT, HAD LIMITED UNDERSTANDING OF THEIR ROLES AND THUS NOT WERE DANGEROUS.

THEY TRY TO SAY DONALD NORTON IS 'LEE' AND JACK SHOWED A HANDWRITING EXAMPLE THAT ONLY PROVED NORTON WAS 'NOT' 'LEE.'

ARMSTRONG GIVES MENTAL RELIEF TO THE COMPLEX PROBLEMS OF HAVING TO TRY TO IDENTIFY SUCH A BIG BASE OF CONSPIRATORS,

BUT DEAN IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT THAT EACH LITTLE PLAYER KNEW VERY LITTLE, AND THE PLETHORA OF THE DEAD SHOWS THAT THOSE

WHO KNEW MORE PAID WITH THEIR LIVES.

DAVE FERRIE HAD STUCK A NEEDLE IN MY ARM AND PHOTOGRAPHED IT TO PROVE I HAD BEEN HYPNOTIZED AND REMEMBERED NOTHING--

SEE THE BOOK--I KNOW HE WAS FOND OF ME AND TRIED TO SAVE MY LIFE--HE STAYED ALIVE LONGER THAN MARY BY SEVERAL YEARS,

BUT ONCE HIS NAME GOT OUT THERE, HE DIED.

FOLLOW THE MONEY.

FOLLOW WHO DIED.

SEE WHO LIED.

NOTHING WAS SOLVED WITH 'HARVEY' AND 'LEE'-- BUT IT HAS CUT THE STRENGTH OF THE CT RESEARCH COMMUNITY IN HALF.

JVB

L Farley:

I say that because "[my] rebuttals", if you wish to call them that, demonstrate the probability of several impostors.

May I join here? What about the photographed LHO in Mexico-City, outside the (cuban, soviet?) embassy? What about the LHO at the Ford-salesman NOLA 20.1.1961?

What about the Oswald at the Lincoln-Mercury-Shop at Dealy Plaza? The other Ossi in the Texas Theater? The Oswald in the cuban consulate in NOLA Sep. 63? The Ossi at the Shooting ranch in Dallas? JVB knew the one and only real Oswald, who was surrounded by imposters, which didn't even look like him! (I am talking about the pic of the Mexico-city Ossi...)...call it ID-Charade... Armstrong is wrong, by claiming there where only two of them...

KK

Armstrong's book focuses ONLY on TWO LHOs...there may have been more. However, in cutting his original

2000 page book back to a 1000 page book, John had to forego some discussions, and simply focused on

the main two, Lee and Harvey. However, he and I both discussed other possibilities:

1. Multiple LHOs in Russia IF the Russians by chance replaced the original defector. Numerous photos

show this is a possibility.

2. Some impostors for LHO in some instances, such as Mexico City, etc. For instance, there are several

sightings of an LHO around Texas various places which are unlikely to be either Lee or Harvey.

These likely were being managed by the CIA to create false trails.

I emphasize, however, that other possibilities such as above do NOT detract from the main story of

Harvey and Lee. Even if the Russians substituted someone for Harvey, the original substitution

story is still valid. However, I believe the original Harvey returned, but the Russians somehow

muddied the waters through various covert means, including photos and witness tampering.

Jack

[Pamela Brown]

Foreigners usually refer to it as "rotten fish".

Oh, there are those who love it, too.

Sil? Here it is called pickled herring and it is delicious. So is lutefisk.

[Glenn Viklund]

Foreigners usually refer to it as "rotten fish".

Oh, there are those who love it, too.

Sil? Here it is called pickled herring and it is delicious. So is lutefisk.

No, no, no.

Sill is a national treasury of ours, eaten with delight by most everyone.

Trust me, fermented herring is in an entirely different division. You'll smell it from miles away. Loved by few, from up north...

Edit: I forgot, you're from Minnesota, so you should be able to find it.....hehe...

Edited April 15, 2010 by Glenn Viklund

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Foreigners usually refer to it as "rotten fish".

Oh, there are those who love it, too.

Sil? Here it is called pickled herring and it is delicious. So is lutefisk.

No, no, no.

Sill is a national treasury of ours, eaten with delight by most everyone.

Trust me, fermented herring is in an entirely different division. You'll smell it from miles away. Loved by few, from up north...

Edit: I forgot, you're from Minnesota, so you should be able to find it.....hehe...

Surstromming?? Sort of the kim chee or durian fruit of the sea.<g> Heard about it while in Sweden, saw some, smelled some ... had meatballs. LOL!

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Glenn Viklund]

Foreigners usually refer to it as "rotten fish".

Oh, there are those who love it, too.

Sil? Here it is called pickled herring and it is delicious. So is lutefisk.

No, no, no.

Sill is a national treasury of ours, eaten with delight by most everyone.

Trust me, fermented herring is in an entirely different division. You'll smell it from miles away. Loved by few, from up north...

Edit: I forgot, you're from Minnesota, so you should be able to find it.....hehe...

Surstromming?? Sort of the kim chee or durian fruit of the sea.<g> Heard about it while in Sweden, saw some, smelled some ... had meatballs. LOL!

Bests,

Barb :-)

Yup, that's it, impressive!

"Sill" is raw fish, "surströmming" is fermented fish.

[Jack White]

"Harvey and Lee" has not "cut the JFK research community in half".

The researchers who do not support it have not read it. It is the only

complete investigation of the mysteries surrounding Lee Harvey Oswald.

It is JVB who has divided researchers, NOT H&L. At least 95% of those

who have READ the book regard it as outstanding.

There is only one side to be on in this controversy...the side of truth.

For those who seek to debunk Armstrong's massive research, I offer

this challenge: Prove that Lee Harvey Oswald DID NOT ATTEND Stripling

Junior High School in Fort Worth. The Warren Commission said he did not.

But the school principal, Frank Kudlaty, says he did. A classmate,

Franchetta Schubert, says he did. Other classmates say he did. His

brother Robert Oswald says he did. A Fort Worth Star-Telegram

columnist, Bud Kennedy, who also attended Stripling, says it is common

knowledge that LHO attended Stripling. Marguerite Oswald owned

a house across the street from Stripling, according to Tarrant County

deed records. Schubert says that LHO went to that house for lunch

every day instead of eating in the school cafeteria. Armstrong documented

some of these witnesses on videotape, and documents even more in

the book.

Prove these witnesses wrong, and I will admit that you are on the right track.

If you cannot prove them wrong, then all claims against H&L are full of

baloney.

Jack

[Pamela Brown]

Foreigners usually refer to it as "rotten fish".

Oh, there are those who love it, too.

Sil? Here it is called pickled herring and it is delicious. So is lutefisk.

No, no, no.

Sill is a national treasury of ours, eaten with delight by most everyone.

Trust me, fermented herring is in an entirely different division. You'll smell it from miles away. Loved by few, from up north...

Edit: I forgot, you're from Minnesota, so you should be able to find it.....hehe...

I'm going to run out to our specialty grocer (ironically called Kowalski's) and demand some surstromming

[Glenn Viklund]

Foreigners usually refer to it as "rotten fish".

Oh, there are those who love it, too.

Sil? Here it is called pickled herring and it is delicious. So is lutefisk.

No, no, no.

Sill is a national treasury of ours, eaten with delight by most everyone.

Trust me, fermented herring is in an entirely different division. You'll smell it from miles away. Loved by few, from up north...

Edit: I forgot, you're from Minnesota, so you should be able to find it.....hehe...

I'm going to run out to our specialty grocer (ironically called Kowalski's) and demand some surstromming

Just remember to tell your neighbors to take a hike - otherwise you will no longer have any neighbors...

[Karl Kinaski]

"Harvey and Lee" has not "cut the JFK research community in half".

The researchers who do not support it have not read it. It is the only

complete investigation of the mysteries surrounding Lee Harvey Oswald.

It is JVB who has divided researchers, NOT H&L. At least 95% of those

who have READ the book regard it as outstanding.

There is only one side to be on in this controversy...the side of truth.

For those who seek to debunk Armstrong's massive research, I offer

this challenge: Prove that Lee Harvey Oswald DID NOT ATTEND Stripling

Junior High School in Fort Worth. The Warren Commission said he did not.

But the school principal, Frank Kudlaty, says he did. A classmate,

Franchetta Schubert, says he did. Other classmates say he did. His

brother Robert Oswald says he did. A Fort Worth Star-Telegram

columnist, Bud Kennedy, who also attended Stripling, says it is common

knowledge that LHO attended Stripling. Marguerite Oswald owned

a house across the street from Stripling, according to Tarrant County

deed records. Schubert says that LHO went to that house for lunch

every day instead of eating in the school cafeteria. Armstrong documented

some of these witnesses on videotape, and documents even more in

the book.

Prove these witnesses wrong, and I will admit that you are on the right track.

If you cannot prove them wrong, then all claims against H&L are full of

baloney.

Jack

Is it your belief, that all those people where fooled by Harvy posing as Lee Oswald in NOLA in the summer 1963?

JVB

Mary Shermann

Alton Ochsner

Clay Shaw

David Ferrie

Carlos Bringuier

Ed Butler

Kerry Thornley

Carlos Marcello

John Quigley FBI

The Murrets

William Reily

Delphin Roberts

Richard Chase Nagell etc etc

Check out this: I love McAdams for this...

Armstrongs book debunked

Edited April 15, 2010 by Karl Kinaski

[Jack White]

"Harvey and Lee" has not "cut the JFK research community in half".

The researchers who do not support it have not read it. It is the only

complete investigation of the mysteries surrounding Lee Harvey Oswald.

It is JVB who has divided researchers, NOT H&L. At least 95% of those

who have READ the book regard it as outstanding.

There is only one side to be on in this controversy...the side of truth.

For those who seek to debunk Armstrong's massive research, I offer

this challenge: Prove that Lee Harvey Oswald DID NOT ATTEND Stripling

Junior High School in Fort Worth. The Warren Commission said he did not.

But the school principal, Frank Kudlaty, says he did. A classmate,

Franchetta Schubert, says he did. Other classmates say he did. His

brother Robert Oswald says he did. A Fort Worth Star-Telegram

columnist, Bud Kennedy, who also attended Stripling, says it is common

knowledge that LHO attended Stripling. Marguerite Oswald owned

a house across the street from Stripling, according to Tarrant County

deed records. Schubert says that LHO went to that house for lunch

every day instead of eating in the school cafeteria. Armstrong documented

some of these witnesses on videotape, and documents even more in

the book.

Prove these witnesses wrong, and I will admit that you are on the right track.

If you cannot prove them wrong, then all claims against H&L are full of

baloney.

Jack

Is it your belief, that all those people where fooled by Harvy posing as Lee Oswald in NOLA in the summer 1963?

JVB........................................KNEW ONLY HARVEY

Mary Shermann......................I DOUBT THAT SHE KNEW LHO

Alton Ochsner.........................I DOUBT THAT HE KNEW LHO

Clay Shaw..............................I DOUBT THAT HE KNEW LHO

David Ferrie............................KNEW HARVEY IN CIVIL AIR PATROL

Carlos Bringuier......................HAD ENCOUNTER WITH HARVEY

Ed Butler................................INTERVIEWED HARVEY

Kerry Thornley.......................KNEW HARVEY

Carlos Marcello.......................I DOUBT THAT HE KNEW LHO

John Quigley FBI.....................HARVEY ASKED TO SPEAK TO HIM

The Murrets............................KNEW HARVEY, LEE, AND MARGUERITE

William Reily...........................EMPLOYED HARVEY

Delphin Roberts.......................BANISTER'S SECRETARY, KNEW HARVEY

Richard Chase Nagell etc etc.....DON'T KNOW.

Check out this: I love McAdams for this... ANYONE WHO LOVES MCADAMS IS NUTS.

Armstrongs book debunked

[Kathleen Collins]

I wonder if Judyth isn't a victim of the Anastasia Syndrome. But basically she's been through hell.

Kathy C

[Jack White]

Anyone wanting to verify that LEE Oswald was attending Stripling Junior High School in Fort Worth

while HARVEY Oswald was attending Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans can call

FRANK KUDLATY in Waco, Texas. He is likely the only Frank Kudlaty in the phone book.

Kudlaty was principal of Stripling when Lee Oswald attended. Kudlaty is the retired SUPERINTENDENT

OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS in Waco, and a highly respected educator. He KNOWS that LHO attended

Stripling, and was never aware of a second LHO in New Orleans until John Armstrong contacted him.

Anyone interested should call Kudlaty, who is a very nice guy. He was a college classmate of mine

many years ago.

Jack

[Kathleen Collins]

David Ferrie............................KNEW HARVEY IN CIVIL AIR PATROL

I disagree. In the Civil Air Patrol Ferrie knew Lee. In the other photo, little Lee is in the middle. He grew to be the teenager in CAP. Look at his mouth.

Kathy C

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH REPLIES TO JACK (FOR ONE OF THE VERY--OR SHOULD I SAY, VARY--LAST TIMES)

Jack wrote:

Apparently JVB is now try to confuse everyone. Now she says LHO lost a tooth at

Beauregard school, and has previously said that David Ferrie knocked one of his

teeth out at a CAP event.

==Jack AGAIN misquotes me! I said it got loosened, not that it got knocked out, by Ferrie.

Was he this way doing research with you, Jim? This careless of witness statements?==

And she finds it impossible that the Murret family did

not know of both Lee and Harvey, EVEN THOUGH Dorothea Murret

==I believe this is Marilyn?==

was in the CIA and Marguerite knew of the plan, and likely asked for their cooperation. When

you can't convince 'em, confuse 'em.

===We now have an immense number of people who 'knew' of "Harvey" and "Lee" -- to the point

of Marina sleeping with both of them -- Robert Oswald, most or all the Murrets (?), two Marguerites,

a "Harvey" who never ever mentions "Lee," and a "Lee" who never, ever mentions "Harvey", but

vanishes forever after "Harvey" dies. So does the 'other' Marguerite. Gone. Poof. Marina looked to

see if it was Lee, when he was dead, because the mortician did a terrible job -- but she knew it was

him, because he had those remarkable eyes that I described.

However, the "Harvey and Lee" people put her through a horrible trial -- exhumation -- and there

were the rings on the body. The skull, as I have said, clung together due to calcium and rubber-like

deposits which occur during partial mummification. The rotated tooth shows the tooth may have

been knocked out but was reseated. Jim, we must examine every page of Armstrong's book with

the scientific thought that apparently has been missing. We have work to do.

Jack White asserts (though none of these people ever asserted):

Robert knew. Marina knew. Marguerite knew. John Pic knew.

Why not the Murret family? It is even possible that Dorothea recruited LHO

for the false defector program. It is interesting that she met with LHO in

Japan. Which LHO? I do not remember, but it likely was Lee, her cousin,

and not Harvey, whom she did not know.

Now we have Marilyn Murret added, too, just because of proximity? That she was in Japan when

Lee H. Oswald was? Jack White is saying on "Lee" was there, not "Harvey." Based on what? The

person I knew -- that they say is "Harvey" -- told me he fell in love with a Japanese girl in Japan.

She was beautiful. We have support for Lee H. Oswald having been in Japan, not "Lee" -- George

DeMohrenschildt wrote that LHO and a Japanese girl at this party excitedly talked about her homeland

-- and George later wrote in his (much kinder to LHO) book that he was glad Marina was miffed that

Lee was getting attention from the prettiest woman at the party -- a musician -- because Marina had

treated him badly.

"She was a Japanese girl, very good looking...and became sort of a girl friend of a Russian musician who

lives in Dallas by the name of Lev Aronson. And I do not recall whether he was at the party or not. But

Yaeko was, and they developed an immediate interest in each other--Oswald and Yaeko. They just went

on sight and started talking and talking and talking. I thought that was understandable because Oswald

had been in Japan, you see. But the interest was so overwhelming that Marina objected, and became

very jealous. She told us, either that night or later, that Oswald got her telephone number, she noticed

that Oswald got this girl's telephone number. And once or twice later on she told us that she has the

impression that Oswald is carrying on something with this girl."

Why would "Harvey" carry on about Japan if only "Lee" had been there?

The whole theory that "Harvey" was not in japan but "Leer" was is more and more sounding like utter

nonsense. Or will we next be told that it was "Lee" who was with Marina at that party in Dallas?

============================bye bye!================================

Apparently JVB is now try to confuse everyone. Now she says LHO lost a tooth at

Beauregard school, and has previously said that David Ferrie knocked one of his

teeth out at a CAP event. And she finds it impossible that the Murret family did

not know of both Lee and Harvey, EVEN THOUGH Dorothea Murret was in the CIA

and Marguerite knew of the plan, and likely asked for their cooperation. When

you can't convince 'em, confuse 'em.

Robert knew. Marina knew. Marguerite knew. John Pic knew.

Why not the Murret family? It is even possible that Dorothea recruited LHO

for the false defector program. It is interesting that she met with LHO in

Japan. Which LHO? I do not remember, but it likely was Lee, her cousin,

and not Harvey, whom she did not know.

Jack

A POSTSCRIPT FROM JUDYTH ABOUT HARVEY & LEE

NOTE: Jack needs to reread the studies of "Lee" losing a tooth at Beauregard Junior High,

where Lillian Murret, "Harvey's" aunt, remembered paying for his visit to the dentist. Are we

now to believe that Lillian and Dutz Murret knew both "Harvey" and "Lee"? That's a bit much.

There must be at least 20 posts exposing problems, mistakes, or blunders in HARVEY & LEE.

Multiple impostors with compartmentalized knowledge across time seems far more plausible.

JUDYTH COMMENTS:

THANKS SO MUCH, JIM...AND LOLA....AND DEAN! AND ED!

HAVE TO SIGN OFF, BUT MY HOPE IS THAT THE TRUTH WILL NOT HURT JACK OR ANYONE,

AND THAT THEY WILL LAY ASIDE A THEORY THAT IS SEVERELY RESTRICTING REAL RESEARCH INTO WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.

HERE'S HOW IT'S RESTRICTING IT:

1 ) THOSE WHO PUT SO MANY IMPOSTORS OUT THERE ARE NOT TRACKED DOWN, AS 'LEE' IS USED ALL OVER THE PLACE TO

ACCOUNT FOR :

A ) FAKED RECORDS,

B ) FAKE LHO APPEARANCES,

C ) RED HERRING TESTIMONIES THAT HIDE THE TRUTH ABOUT LEE

RE ALTERED AND FAKE (ON PURPOSE OR JUST WANTING 'FAME')TESTIMONIES. AFTER MUCH STUDY, THINKING--I REALIZED

THAT ARMSTRONG ACCEPTS THEM ALL ON SOME LEVEL, IF THEY FIT HIS THEORY.

I DO NOT HAVE THE BOOK YET [NOTE: I have sent her a copy], BUT ASK-- HOW MANY REPORTS ARE IN HIS BOOK THAT HE

ANALYZES AND REJECTS--WHAT REASONS DOES HE USE TO REJECT A REPORT?

WHAT ARE HIS REASONS FOR ACCEPTING SUCH A POOR WITNESS AS MYRA DAROUSE? JUST BECAUSE SHE FITS HIS THEORY?

I FIND SLOPPY RESEARCH AND ALTERED PHOTOS THAT ARE TROUBLING. AND WE HAVE JUST BEGUN.

IT IS NOT A SIN TO PUT RESEARCH BACK ON RACK.

I CANNOT THINK OF ANYTHING THAT HAS SO HOBBLED THE TRUTH AS HIS THEORY THAT HAS HAS DIVIDED RESEARCHERS TO

THE EXTENT OF RUPTURING FRIENDSHIPS. THINK OF IT.

THAT 'KATHY' CAN CONTINUE TO SAY 'HARVEY' THIS AND 'LEE' THAT AS IF IT WERE A FACT THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED...

ALMOST LIKE A RELIGIOUS BELIEF NOT ALLOWING ANY HERESY OR HERETIC--THEY WILL BE BURNED AT THE STAKE....

SO I ASKED MYSELF--HOW DOES ARMSTRONG THINK?

I HAVE REALIZED WHERE HIS WEAK SPOT IS:

2 ) ARMSTRONG TAKES WHAT'S IN THE WARREN COMMISSION RECORDS LITERALLY,

A ) HE ASSUMES THAT THE WARREN COMMISSION KNEW ABOUT 'LEE' AND 'HARVEY' BUT HID 'LEE' FROM SIGHT--OR ELSE

THE COMMISSION'S HANDLERS DID.

B ) THIS ASSUMPTION THEN GIVES HIM A BASIS FOR HUNTING ANY NEW EVIDENCE --BUT HE ONLY LOOKS FOR EVIDENCE

THAT SUPPORTS HIS THEORY.

BY THE WAY, THIS IS NOT SCIENTIFIC.

THIS IS WHAT MARKETERS DO FOR A PRODUCT.

IT IS HIS WORST FAULT, THIS MIND-SET.

HIS NEXT FLAW IS THAT HE CHOOSES TO BELIEVE THAT ALL REPORTS ARE ESSENTIALLY ACCURATE IF THEY FIT HIS HYPOTHESIS.

IF THEY DO NOT--FOR EXAMPLE, REJECTING ME AS A WITNESS BECAUSE I WAS NOT PREGNANT AT THE TIME, THEREFORE COULD

NOT 'POSE; AS MARINA--HE LIMITS HIS COLLECTION TO WHAT FITS HIS VISION.

IN FACT, THIS IS WHAT THE WARREN COMMISSION DID!

THE HABIT OF ANSWERING EVERY QUESTION WITH: "HARVEY AND LEE" IS THE SAME KIND OF THINKING THE WARREN COMMISSION

USED TO SAY "OSWALD SHOT KENNEDY."

IT REMINDS ME OF THE PHLOGISTON THEORY, SAME WAY OF THINKING:

Stahl outlined his medical theories in The True Theory of Medicine (1708) and the book had great influences throughout Europe.

The Becher/Stahl theory explained burning, oxidation, calcination (metal residue after combustion), and breathing in the following way:

* Flames extinguish because air becomes saturated with phlogiston.

* Charcoal leaves little residue upon burning because it is nearly pure phlogiston.

* Mice die in airtight space because air saturates with phlogiston.

* When heated, metals are restored because phlogiston transferred from charcoal to calx.

Becher/Stahl derived these conclusions outside the laboratory while in the laboratory others were finding that metals such as magnesium

gained weight during combustion. If phlogiston is given off when a metal forms a calx, why does the calx weigh more than the metal?

Stahl attributed the weight increase to air entering the metal to fill the vacuum left after phlogiston escaped.

THIS IDEA IS STUNNING AND SOUNDS LOGICAL --BUT IS ABOUT AS SCIENTIFIC AS THE PHLOGISTON THEORY BY EXPLAINING 'EVERYTHING'

AND OBSTRUCTING OUR VIEW OF WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. DON;T GET ME WRONG--THEY HAD IMPOSTORS OUT THERE--MULTIPLE ONES,

WHO, AS DEAN POINTED OUT, HAD LIMITED UNDERSTANDING OF THEIR ROLES AND THUS NOT WERE DANGEROUS.

THEY TRY TO SAY DONALD NORTON IS 'LEE' AND JACK SHOWED A HANDWRITING EXAMPLE THAT ONLY PROVED NORTON WAS 'NOT' 'LEE.'

ARMSTRONG GIVES MENTAL RELIEF TO THE COMPLEX PROBLEMS OF HAVING TO TRY TO IDENTIFY SUCH A BIG BASE OF CONSPIRATORS,

BUT DEAN IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT THAT EACH LITTLE PLAYER KNEW VERY LITTLE, AND THE PLETHORA OF THE DEAD SHOWS THAT THOSE

WHO KNEW MORE PAID WITH THEIR LIVES.

DAVE FERRIE HAD STUCK A NEEDLE IN MY ARM AND PHOTOGRAPHED IT TO PROVE I HAD BEEN HYPNOTIZED AND REMEMBERED NOTHING--

SEE THE BOOK--I KNOW HE WAS FOND OF ME AND TRIED TO SAVE MY LIFE--HE STAYED ALIVE LONGER THAN MARY BY SEVERAL YEARS,

BUT ONCE HIS NAME GOT OUT THERE, HE DIED.

FOLLOW THE MONEY.

FOLLOW WHO DIED.

SEE WHO LIED.

NOTHING WAS SOLVED WITH 'HARVEY' AND 'LEE'-- BUT IT HAS CUT THE STRENGTH OF THE CT RESEARCH COMMUNITY IN HALF.

JVB

L Farley:

I say that because "[my] rebuttals", if you wish to call them that, demonstrate the probability of several impostors.

May I join here? What about the photographed LHO in Mexico-City, outside the (cuban, soviet?) embassy? What about the LHO at the Ford-salesman NOLA 20.1.1961?

What about the Oswald at the Lincoln-Mercury-Shop at Dealy Plaza? The other Ossi in the Texas Theater? The Oswald in the cuban consulate in NOLA Sep. 63? The Ossi at the Shooting ranch in Dallas? JVB knew the one and only real Oswald, who was surrounded by imposters, which didn't even look like him! (I am talking about the pic of the Mexico-city Ossi...)...call it ID-Charade... Armstrong is wrong, by claiming there where only two of them...

KK

Armstrong's book focuses ONLY on TWO LHOs...there may have been more. However, in cutting his original

2000 page book back to a 1000 page book, John had to forego some discussions, and simply focused on

the main two, Lee and Harvey. However, he and I both discussed other possibilities:

1. Multiple LHOs in Russia IF the Russians by chance replaced the original defector. Numerous photos

show this is a possibility.

2. Some impostors for LHO in some instances, such as Mexico City, etc. For instance, there are several

sightings of an LHO around Texas various places which are unlikely to be either Lee or Harvey.

These likely were being managed by the CIA to create false trails.

I emphasize, however, that other possibilities such as above do NOT detract from the main story of

Harvey and Lee. Even if the Russians substituted someone for Harvey, the original substitution

story is still valid. However, I believe the original Harvey returned, but the Russians somehow

muddied the waters through various covert means, including photos and witness tampering.

Jack

Edited April 15, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[John Dolva]

Foreigners usually refer to it as "rotten fish".

Oh, there are those who love it, too.

Sil? Here it is called pickled herring and it is delicious. So is lutefisk.

No, no, no.

Sill is a national treasury of ours, eaten with delight by most everyone.

Trust me, fermented herring is in an entirely different division. You'll smell it from miles away. Loved by few, from up north...

Edit: I forgot, you're from Minnesota, so you should be able to find it.....hehe...

Yes, vitamin D supplements can be good during the long winter when the summers catch has been preserved. Also, with a tot of vodka during and after a sauna, with some dill on rye it can be really invigorating. So, I suppose the conditioning is to respond with a liking when smelled but if you don't need it, oh dear...