Ex-PFC Oswald?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Perhaps someone here has studied Lee Oswald's military record in depth and can provide a definitive answer to this question: What Rank did Oz hold when he was discharged from the marines?

Oz, or Ozzie, as he was known to his fellow marines, had reached the rank of "Buck Sergeant", Private First Class and he was busted back to ordinary private for an infraction (from memory, spilling a drink on an NCO's head). In the lingo of Joseph Heller, he was now Ex-PFC Oswald.

I had always assumed that he was still Ex-PFC when he was discharged, but I recently came across this article by Peter Whitmey citing CE918

http://www.jfk-info.com/whitmey8.htm#58. which suggests that -- at some point prior to his dischage -- he had been reinstated as Private First Class.

The following day, a reply to the Naval message sent to headquarters was drafted, and received at the Embassy on Nov. 5. Again, it was partially censored when published in the Warren Commission documents, involving the first line plus one word:

"..............................................

..... Oswald is PFC inactive Marine Corps Reserve

with obligated service until 8 December 1962.

Was Oz PFC inactive or Ex-PFC inactive?

[Bernice Moore]

COPY OF DISCHARGE..FWIW

[J. Raymond Carroll]

COPY OF DISCHARGE..FWIW

Thanks Bernice. It certainly does say that he was Private First Class.

WHich means that somewhere along the line he was promoted for the second time.

[Jack White]

COPY OF DISCHARGE..FWIW

Thanks Bernice. It certainly does say that he was Private First Class.

WHich means that somewhere along the line he was promoted for the second time.

As I recall, PFC was a rating awarded for completion of basic training (boot camp).

I had Navy boot training right next door to the San Diego Marine boot camp.

As a navy "boot", I had the rating of Seaman. On completion of boot camp, all of us

became Seaman First Class. Technically it is a promotion...but in reality, it is the

lowest rating (other than trainees or boots). I still have my navy "boots" (leggings)

that give trainees their name.

So if LHO was PFC, that is the LOWEST rating other than trainee, so is not a "promotion".

Incidentally, the word "RANK" is used only for officers. All enlisted men have RATINGS,

not ranks.

Jack

[Mike Williams]

COPY OF DISCHARGE..FWIW

Thanks Bernice. It certainly does say that he was Private First Class.

WHich means that somewhere along the line he was promoted for the second time.

As I recall, PFC was a rating awarded for completion of basic training (boot camp).

I had Navy boot training right next door to the San Diego Marine boot camp.

As a navy "boot", I had the rating of Seaman. On completion of boot camp, all of us

became Seaman First Class. Technically it is a promotion...but in reality, it is the

lowest rating (other than trainees or boots). I still have my navy "boots" (leggings)

that give trainees their name.

So if LHO was PFC, that is the LOWEST rating other than trainee, so is not a "promotion".

Incidentally, the word "RANK" is used only for officers. All enlisted men have RATINGS,

not ranks.

Jack

When the military went over to the "E" for enlisted pay grade system, a PFC in the Army was pay grade E-3 while in the USMC PFC was pay grade E-2. The Corps used pay grade E-3 for Lance Corporal.

Most branches handed out E-2 after 4 or 5 months of service...in the Coast Guard we got E-2, which was Seaman Apprentice out of boot camp.

Having fell down the ladder a few times myself, they usually gave you back a stripe (grades E-2,3) after 30 days of good behavior.

Jack, I still have the "Fair Play for Oswald" T-shirt I bought from you at the old ASK conference in 94.

That would be correct.

There are only a few Marines handed PFC from basic, generally for excellent performance. I myself made the trip to PFC and back a couple times. Generally for very small infractions punished under the UCMJ, non-judicial punishment. After about 30 days my stripe was given back (both times lol).

I would also not that I know that once one retires, or leaves honorable, you can actually retain the rank/title. Such as R Lee Ermy, who is to this day called Gunny.

I am less certain about and undesirable discharge.

Mike

[Bernice Moore]

DISCHARGE REVIEW FWIW..YOUR WELCOME J...HERE IS HIS REVIEW FORM MAY GIVE YOU MORE INFO, THERE ARE ALSO HIS WRITINGS ON 3 PAGES ABOUT HIS DISCHARGE IF INTERESTED...B

Edited June 3, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[William Kelly]

Perhaps someone here has studied Lee Oswald's military record in depth and can provide a definitive answer to this question: What Rank did Oz hold when he was discharged from the marines?

Oz, or Ozzie, as he was known to his fellow marines, had reached the rank of "Buck Sergeant", Private First Class and he was busted back to ordinary private for an infraction (from memory, spilling a drink on an NCO's head). In the lingo of Joseph Heller, he was now Ex-PFC Oswald.

I had always assumed that he was still Ex-PFC when he was discharged, but I recently came across this article by Peter Whitmey citing CE918

http://www.jfk-info.com/whitmey8.htm#58. which suggests that -- at some point prior to his dischage -- he had been reinstated as Private First Class.

The following day, a reply to the Naval message sent to headquarters was drafted, and received at the Embassy on Nov. 5. Again, it was partially censored when published in the Warren Commission documents, involving the first line plus one word:

"..............................................

..... Oswald is PFC inactive Marine Corps Reserve

with obligated service until 8 December 1962.

Was Oz PFC inactive or Ex-PFC inactive?

I thought Oswald got an early but honorable discharge originally and that was changed to undesirable after his defection?

What was his original discharge? Wouldn't he normally go on Active Reserve?

BK

[Bernice Moore]

BILL THESE MAY BE OF INTEREST TO YoU...??Many of the theories that are bandied about say that [Oswald] was an agent of the FBI or the CIA...but I say he was an agent of the ONI...Office of Naval Intelligence...Since the Marine Corps is under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Navy, and since his Marine Corps discharge was handled by the Navy, there's no way that you can have this discharge, and his conduct---before, during and after---unless the ONI started it."

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...e/copa_lho.html

1 min 36 sec) George Michael Evica on a seemingly "prophetic" move by Naval Intelligence in regards to Oswald's discharge status.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/...e_Michael_Evica

Edited June 4, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

BILL THIS MAY BE OF INTEREST TO YoU...??Many of the theories that are bandied about say that [Oswald] was an agent of the FBI or the CIA...but I say he was an agent of the ONI...Office of Naval Intelligence...Since the Marine Corps is under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Navy, and since his Marine Corps discharge was handled by the Navy, there's no way that you can have this discharge, and his conduct---before, during and after---unless the ONI started it."

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...e/copa_lho.html

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/...e_Michael_Evica

George Michael Evica on a seemingly "prophetic" move by Naval Intelligence in regards to Oswald's discharge status.

(1 min 36 sec) George Michael Evica on a seemingly "prophetic" move by Naval Intelligence in regards to Oswald's discharge status.

(1 min 36 sec) George Michael Evica on a seemingly "prophetic" move by Naval Intelligence in regards to Oswald's discharge status.

(1 min 36 sec)