Clint Hill - First shot hit the president

[Mike Williams]

"JFK's movements are replicated in other parts of the motorcade, as Mark Henceroth pointed out to you."

Absolute BS. But don't be bashful Michael. Show us the video in which you saw JFK react as he did during the Towner film.

Look at the Muchmore. Do I have to hold your hand for everything?

oh yea....and the Limo was blue....

[Robert Harris]

Weren't there any witnesses at the east corner of Elm who recalled any movement by JFK, as is conveniently missing from Towner and the other film?

I don't see anything in any film that shows Greer nearly hitting the curb. There were people standing there, and that would have caused a ripple in the crowd. There are plenty of YouTube videos showing cars veering toward unsuspecting bystanders to compare reactions with.

I think Greer misperceived which street he was supposed to turn down and had to correct at the last second, which would have been a couple feet later than if he had not made his mistake. Locals in the crowd probably did a silent "Oops!" in their heads, knowing what almost happened. But do we see anyone in the crowd reacting with any concern in Towner? Kennedy seems the only person fazed by by any part of the turn...we'll never really know if he's reacting to a missed shot, or if he gave a little "Oops!" at the short turn himself, feeling the way one does when one misses a step on the stairs.

Any bets on whether JFK's dropped wave is a reaction to a pavement hit, or to the short turn? Either way, it's a significant moment that deserves exploration, and I'm glad Bob Harris brought it up.

Thanks David.

I think if JFK's reaction had been to the limo striking the curb or braking, he might have been thrown forward, but not to his left, toward Jackie. And the others riding with him would have reacted similarly. Nor would he have balled his hand into a fist.

Those reactions were unique. JFK never reacted like that during the motorcade previously or undoubtedly, any other time in his life. And the reactions began JUST as the limo pulled in front of the Daltex building and the window that was partially broken out on the third floor.

In the past, people blew off the notion that there was a shot then, because most witnesses said they never heard shots until later. But we have ignored the possibility that a suppressed weapon was used, which not only explains why most people never heard that shot, but why shots were fired wildly, missing the entire limousine. Suppressors are notorious for causing problems like that. And the mafia had been using suppressors for decades prior to 1963. There is no reason at all that they wouldn't have used them in the attack on JFK - when the limo was relatively close.

Harris you are a trip.

Seems you never learn your lesson. We have already proven that there was no exterior damage to the Limo, indicating no fragments struck it, we have already determined that no other occupant was hit by your imaginary fragments, so somehow these managed to not hit the Limo or anyone but JFK? :unsure: Were these special "controlled fragmentation" rounds, much like Fetzer's "controlled demolition" charges?

As you have also been told a silencer would still have emitted well over 100db, unless you are really going to contend someone was shooting sub sonic ammunition, which is idiotic at best. The shot would have been perfectly audible.

JFK's movements are replicated in other parts of the motorcade, as Mark Henceroth pointed out to you.

Not to mention that just scant seconds later the President is smiling widely and waving to the crowd. Would you do that if you had just been struck so severely by fragments that you ducked for cover?

And you have yet to prove that JFK was making a fist at all. You seem like this is a forgone conclusion, but how could you tell this when you apparently can't determine the color of the 20 foot long several thousand pound limo the man was riding in?

Demanding that I "prove" JFK balled his hand into a fist and then fell to his left, is a classic example. And so is your claim that the reactions were caused by the limousine braking. Any idiot knows those are bogus arguments. It was like demanding that I prove the limo was black.~Robert Harris

Um.....Robert....once again the limo was blue...... :ice

Michael, you did not prove that the limo was never pelted by debris from a missed shot, by citing Frazier stating that a bullet didn't damage the limo. The most that would result from a piece of asphalt striking the vehicle would be a tiny scratch - if that. You seem to be desperate to refute what 99% of your fellow nutters already believe.

And the only one who told me that all suppressors generated "well over 100db", was YOU. This video, which I showed you before, give us a good perspective on the levels generated by small, suppressed weapons - a pistol AND a rifle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfPO6cFstTk

And even if you were right, 130db which is the level generated by Oswald's rifle is EIGHT TIMES louder than 100db. The difference is huge.

How typical of you to not realize the difference in the sound of a video and the sound in real life.

"Live tests by independent reviewers of numerous commercially available suppressors find that even low caliber unsuppressed .22 LR firearms produce gunshots over 160 decibels.[7] In testing, most of the suppressors reduced the volume to between 130 and 145 dB, with the quietest suppressors metering at 117 dB. The actual suppression of sound ranged from 14.3 to 43 dB, with most data points around the 30 dB mark."

Does that video sound like 130 to 145 dB to you? hahahahahahahah!

Robert your inability to comprehend the obvious never ceases to amaze me.

Oh yea....and the Limo was blue.....

Strange, that yesterday suppressors generate levels of 100db and today that's grown to 160:-)

That cite is from tests conducted by Robert Silvers, who positioned a microphone ONE METER from the barrel. Did you even bother to read his testing procedures?

http://silencertalk.com/2209-method.htm

And the video I referenced generated real sound levels, with no clipping or signs of the mike being overdriven. And we have the man's voice to compare the sound levels with.

Michael, the overwhelming consensus of the witnesses in DP that day, was that they heard only ONE early shot prior to the end of the attack. Event he WC admitted that. Therefore, at least one of those shots went unheard. The only possible explanation for that is, that a suppressed weapon was used. The alternative, which YOU want us to buy is, that those people couldn't hear an unsuppressed weapon, which is utter nonsense.

[Robert Harris]

Weren't there any witnesses at the east corner of Elm who recalled any movement by JFK, as is conveniently missing from Towner and the other film?

I don't see anything in any film that shows Greer nearly hitting the curb. There were people standing there, and that would have caused a ripple in the crowd. There are plenty of YouTube videos showing cars veering toward unsuspecting bystanders to compare reactions with.

I think Greer misperceived which street he was supposed to turn down and had to correct at the last second, which would have been a couple feet later than if he had not made his mistake. Locals in the crowd probably did a silent "Oops!" in their heads, knowing what almost happened. But do we see anyone in the crowd reacting with any concern in Towner? Kennedy seems the only person fazed by by any part of the turn...we'll never really know if he's reacting to a missed shot, or if he gave a little "Oops!" at the short turn himself, feeling the way one does when one misses a step on the stairs.

Any bets on whether JFK's dropped wave is a reaction to a pavement hit, or to the short turn? Either way, it's a significant moment that deserves exploration, and I'm glad Bob Harris brought it up.

Thanks David.

I think if JFK's reaction had been to the limo striking the curb or braking, he might have been thrown forward, but not to his left, toward Jackie. And the others riding with him would have reacted similarly. Nor would he have balled his hand into a fist.

Those reactions were unique. JFK never reacted like that during the motorcade previously or undoubtedly, any other time in his life. And the reactions began JUST as the limo pulled in front of the Daltex building and the window that was partially broken out on the third floor.

In the past, people blew off the notion that there was a shot then, because most witnesses said they never heard shots until later. But we have ignored the possibility that a suppressed weapon was used, which not only explains why most people never heard that shot, but why shots were fired wildly, missing the entire limousine. Suppressors are notorious for causing problems like that. And the mafia had been using suppressors for decades prior to 1963. There is no reason at all that they wouldn't have used them in the attack on JFK - when the limo was relatively close.

Harris you are a trip.

Seems you never learn your lesson. We have already proven that there was no exterior damage to the Limo, indicating no fragments struck it, we have already determined that no other occupant was hit by your imaginary fragments, so somehow these managed to not hit the Limo or anyone but JFK? :unsure: Were these special "controlled fragmentation" rounds, much like Fetzer's "controlled demolition" charges?

As you have also been told a silencer would still have emitted well over 100db, unless you are really going to contend someone was shooting sub sonic ammunition, which is idiotic at best. The shot would have been perfectly audible.

JFK's movements are replicated in other parts of the motorcade, as Mark Henceroth pointed out to you.

Not to mention that just scant seconds later the President is smiling widely and waving to the crowd. Would you do that if you had just been struck so severely by fragments that you ducked for cover?

And you have yet to prove that JFK was making a fist at all. You seem like this is a forgone conclusion, but how could you tell this when you apparently can't determine the color of the 20 foot long several thousand pound limo the man was riding in?

Demanding that I "prove" JFK balled his hand into a fist and then fell to his left, is a classic example. And so is your claim that the reactions were caused by the limousine braking. Any idiot knows those are bogus arguments. It was like demanding that I prove the limo was black.~Robert Harris

Um.....Robert....once again the limo was blue...... :ice

Michael, you did not prove that the limo was never pelted by debris from a missed shot, by citing Frazier stating that a bullet didn't damage the limo. The most that would result from a piece of asphalt striking the vehicle would be a tiny scratch - if that. You seem to be desperate to refute what 99% of your fellow nutters already believe.

And the only one who told me that all suppressors generated "well over 100db", was YOU. This video, which I showed you before, give us a good perspective on the levels generated by small, suppressed weapons - a pistol AND a rifle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfPO6cFstTk

And even if you were right, 130db which is the level generated by Oswald's rifle is EIGHT TIMES louder than 100db. The difference is huge.

How typical of you to not realize the difference in the sound of a video and the sound in real life.

"Live tests by independent reviewers of numerous commercially available suppressors find that even low caliber unsuppressed .22 LR firearms produce gunshots over 160 decibels.[7] In testing, most of the suppressors reduced the volume to between 130 and 145 dB, with the quietest suppressors metering at 117 dB. The actual suppression of sound ranged from 14.3 to 43 dB, with most data points around the 30 dB mark."

Does that video sound like 130 to 145 dB to you? hahahahahahahah!

Robert your inability to comprehend the obvious never ceases to amaze me.

Oh yea....and the Limo was blue.....

Strange, that yesterday suppressors generate levels of 100db and today that's grown to 160:-)

That cite is from tests conducted by Robert Silvers, who positioned a microphone ONE METER from the barrel. Did you even bother to read his testing procedures?

http://silencertalk.com/2209-method.htm

And the video I referenced generated real sound levels, with no clipping or signs of the mike being overdriven. And we have the man's voice to compare the sound levels with.

Michael, the overwhelming consensus of the witnesses in DP that day, was that they heard only ONE early shot prior to the end of the attack. Even he WC admitted that. Therefore, at least one of those shots went unheard. The only possible explanation for that is, that a suppressed weapon was used. The alternative, which YOU want us to buy is, that those people couldn't hear an unsuppressed weapon, which is utter nonsense.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Robert Harris

[Robert Harris]

"JFK's movements are replicated in other parts of the motorcade, as Mark Henceroth pointed out to you."

Absolute BS. But don't be bashful Michael. Show us the video in which you saw JFK react as he did during the Towner film.

Look at the Muchmore. Do I have to hold your hand for everything?

oh yea....and the Limo was blue....

I looked at the muchmore film and there were no reactions by JFK that were even close to what we see in the Towner film.

You need to stop making things up Michael.

[Mike Williams]

Strange, that yesterday suppressors generate levels of 100db and today that's grown to 160:-0

I believe I have always said the sound would be a min of 100 nowhere have I said otherwise.

And the video I referenced generated real sound levels, with no clipping or signs of the mike being overdriven. And we have the man's voice to compare the sound levels with.

Now that is funny. Luckily you did not appear to notice the unsuppressed weapons firing in the background, which I assure you are much louder in person. How could you have missed that?

Michael, the overwhelming consensus of the witnesses in DP that day, was that they heard only ONE early shot prior to the end of the attack. Even he WC admitted that. Therefore, at least one of those shots went unheard. The only possible explanation for that is, that a suppressed weapon was used. The alternative, which YOU want us to buy is, that those people couldn't hear an unsuppressed weapon, which is utter nonsense.

Oh Robert, you are a prankster.

I'm not the one who said a silenced weapon would not be heard, you were. In fact, I am the one who clued you in to the fact that a silenced weapon would be heard, which of course they would.

Now your going to have to come better than this Robert, don't you ever get tired of being redfaced?

www.jfkballistics.com/CE842.html

Oh yea,.......and the limo was blue......not black LMAO.

[Robert Harris]

"JFK's movements are replicated in other parts of the motorcade, as Mark Henceroth pointed out to you."

Absolute BS. But don't be bashful Michael. Show us the video in which you saw JFK react as he did during the Towner film.

Look at the Muchmore. Do I have to hold your hand for everything?

oh yea....and the Limo was blue....

I looked at the muchmore film and there were no reactions by JFK that were even close to what we see in the Towner film.

You need to stop making things up Michael.

Interested lurkers who just tuned it, might want to look at the reactions that are at issue here. They are very clearly displayed in the early part of this video,

[Mike Williams]

"JFK's movements are replicated in other parts of the motorcade, as Mark Henceroth pointed out to you."

Absolute BS. But don't be bashful Michael. Show us the video in which you saw JFK react as he did during the Towner film.

Look at the Muchmore. Do I have to hold your hand for everything?

oh yea....and the Limo was blue....

I looked at the muchmore film and there were no reactions by JFK that were even close to what we see in the Towner film.

You need to stop making things up Michael.

Really?

Are you sure, or are you on the edge of another heartbreak?

[Robert Harris]

Strange, that yesterday suppressors generate levels of 100db and today that's grown to 160:-0

I believe I have always said the sound would be a min of 100 nowhere have I said otherwise.

And the video I referenced generated real sound levels, with no clipping or signs of the mike being overdriven. And we have the man's voice to compare the sound levels with.

Now that is funny. Luckily you did not appear to notice the unsuppressed weapons firing in the background, which I assure you are much louder in person. How could you have missed that?

Michael, the overwhelming consensus of the witnesses in DP that day, was that they heard only ONE early shot prior to the end of the attack. Even he WC admitted that. Therefore, at least one of those shots went unheard. The only possible explanation for that is, that a suppressed weapon was used. The alternative, which YOU want us to buy is, that those people couldn't hear an unsuppressed weapon, which is utter nonsense.

Oh Robert, you are a prankster.

I'm not the one who said a silenced weapon would not be heard, you were. In fact, I am the one who clued you in to the fact that a silenced weapon would be heard, which of course they would.

Now your going to have to come better than this Robert, don't you ever get tired of being redfaced?

www.jfkballistics.com/CE842.html

Oh yea,.......and the limo was blue......not black LMAO.

Michael, you need to take a course in critical thinking.

It's nice that nutters matched the letters in two of the initials with their names. But that is light years from proving that they were legitimate.

It is obvious beyond any possible doubt, that erased and partially erased characters were overwritten on that envelope.

And yes, we can hear MUCH louder gunshots in the background of that video,which were obviously not suppressed. That's because the suppressors the guy was using were extremely effective. The bottom line is, that it is infinitely more likely that suppressed shots would go unnoticed, than unsuppressed shots.

And that is exactly what happened.

[Robert Harris]

"JFK's movements are replicated in other parts of the motorcade, as Mark Henceroth pointed out to you."

Absolute BS. But don't be bashful Michael. Show us the video in which you saw JFK react as he did during the Towner film.

Look at the Muchmore. Do I have to hold your hand for everything?

oh yea....and the Limo was blue....

I looked at the muchmore film and there were no reactions by JFK that were even close to what we see in the Towner film.

You need to stop making things up Michael.

Really?

Are you sure, or are you on the edge of another heartbreak?

ROFLMAO!! Oh, I don't think my heart is at much risk, Michael.

[Mike Williams]

Strange, that yesterday suppressors generate levels of 100db and today that's grown to 160:-0

I believe I have always said the sound would be a min of 100 nowhere have I said otherwise.

And the video I referenced generated real sound levels, with no clipping or signs of the mike being overdriven. And we have the man's voice to compare the sound levels with.

Now that is funny. Luckily you did not appear to notice the unsuppressed weapons firing in the background, which I assure you are much louder in person. How could you have missed that?

Michael, the overwhelming consensus of the witnesses in DP that day, was that they heard only ONE early shot prior to the end of the attack. Even he WC admitted that. Therefore, at least one of those shots went unheard. The only possible explanation for that is, that a suppressed weapon was used. The alternative, which YOU want us to buy is, that those people couldn't hear an unsuppressed weapon, which is utter nonsense.

Oh Robert, you are a prankster.

I'm not the one who said a silenced weapon would not be heard, you were. In fact, I am the one who clued you in to the fact that a silenced weapon would be heard, which of course they would.

Now your going to have to come better than this Robert, don't you ever get tired of being redfaced?

www.jfkballistics.com/CE842.html

Oh yea,.......and the limo was blue......not black LMAO.

Michael, you need to take a course in critical thinking.

It's nice that nutters matched the letters in two of the initials with their names. But that is light years from proving that they were legitimate.

It is obvious beyond any possible doubt, that erased and partially erased characters were overwritten on that envelope.

And yes, we can hear MUCH louder gunshots in the background of that video,which were obviously not suppressed. That's because the suppressors the guy was using were extremely effective. The bottom line is, that it is infinitely more likely that suppressed shots would go unnoticed, than unsuppressed shots.

And that is exactly what happened.

It is?

Then of course you have some physical proof as well as an assertion?

Of course, now you are catching on. Much louder shots, which tell you your silencers in that video are not represented properly, just as I have informed you.

There MAY be hope for you yet.

Oh yeah,

and the 842 envelope was not forged?

www.jfkbalistics.com/CE842.html

Edited June 18, 2010 by Mike Williams

[Mike Williams]

"JFK's movements are replicated in other parts of the motorcade, as Mark Henceroth pointed out to you."

Absolute BS. But don't be bashful Michael. Show us the video in which you saw JFK react as he did during the Towner film.

Look at the Muchmore. Do I have to hold your hand for everything?

oh yea....and the Limo was blue....

I looked at the muchmore film and there were no reactions by JFK that were even close to what we see in the Towner film.

You need to stop making things up Michael.

Really?

Are you sure, or are you on the edge of another heartbreak?

ROFLMAO!! Oh, I don't think my heart is at much risk, Michael.

wait till you see the next article lol. Your video is the star!

[Jerry Ellis]

FWIW I don't think that video is of too much value for the sake of the discussion of a sniper round with silencer in Dealey. I think that we can be comfortable with the idea that no sniper is going to use .22LR to assassinate the president, from a rooftop building window or the RR bridge. The Walther P22 in the video shoots .22LR. The AR-15 in the video was converted down to shoot the same .22LR rounds. I can tell you that an AR-15 with its normal respective rounds is about the loudest firearm I have ever been around. I seriously doubt if any silencer made for AR-15 sniper, sport, or combat round is going to be any near as dramatically quiet as that video demonstrates!

[Robert Harris]

"JFK's movements are replicated in other parts of the motorcade, as Mark Henceroth pointed out to you."

Absolute BS. But don't be bashful Michael. Show us the video in which you saw JFK react as he did during the Towner film.

Look at the Muchmore. Do I have to hold your hand for everything?

oh yea....and the Limo was blue....

I looked at the muchmore film and there were no reactions by JFK that were even close to what we see in the Towner film.

You need to stop making things up Michael.

Really?

Are you sure, or are you on the edge of another heartbreak?

ROFLMAO!! Oh, I don't think my heart is at much risk, Michael.

wait till you see the next article lol. Your video is the star!

I'm sure you have some great smear pieces and a lot of phony claims in store for me, Michael.

But first, would you mind showing us where in in the Muchmore film, JFK reacted as he did in the Towner film??

[Mike Williams]

FWIW I don't think that video is of too much value for the sake of the discussion of a sniper round with silencer in Dealey. I think that we can be comfortable with the idea that no sniper is going to use .22LR to assassinate the president, from a rooftop building window or the RR bridge. The Walther P22 in the video shoots .22LR. The AR-15 in the video was converted down to shoot the same .22LR rounds. I can tell you that an AR-15 with its normal respective rounds is about the loudest firearm I have ever been around. I seriously doubt if any silencer made for AR-15 sniper, sport, or combat round is going to be any near as dramatically quiet as that video demonstrates!

Jerry,

You would be perfectly correct. Did you hear the other unsuppressed weapons in the background? They were very quiet compared to being right next to them, this is a good scale for the judgment of how loud the rest were.

Also, the thought of someone shooting at a president with a suppressed .22 from a distance of more than 10 feet is hysterical.

Mike

[Mike Williams]

"JFK's movements are replicated in other parts of the motorcade, as Mark Henceroth pointed out to you."

Absolute BS. But don't be bashful Michael. Show us the video in which you saw JFK react as he did during the Towner film.

Look at the Muchmore. Do I have to hold your hand for everything?

oh yea....and the Limo was blue....

I looked at the muchmore film and there were no reactions by JFK that were even close to what we see in the Towner film.

You need to stop making things up Michael.

Really?

Are you sure, or are you on the edge of another heartbreak?

ROFLMAO!! Oh, I don't think my heart is at much risk, Michael.

wait till you see the next article lol. Your video is the star!

I'm sure you have some great smear pieces and a lot of phony claims in store for me, Michael.

But first, would you mind showing us where in in the Muchmore film, JFK reacted as he did in the Towner film??

Sure thing there chief as soon as you face the forgery of CE842 lol.

Is proving you wrong...again.....a smear campaign?