HARRY J. DEAN

[William Kelly]

The Origin of the “LBJ Killed JFK” Psyop: Bircher James Evetts Hale

http://www.antifascistencyclopedia.com/allposts/the-origin-of-the-lbj-killed-jfk-psyop-bircher-james-evetts-haley

9th July 2008

Who killed Kennedy? In a word, “Minutemen,” neo-fascists from the ultra-con Birch Society (funded early on by Nazi veterans of WW II in Germany, often linked to Nelson Bunker Hunt and others with known ties to the Kennedy murder), Young Americans for Freedom (YAF, a front for incoming Nazi spies from Munich) and Aryan-Nations/Liberty Lobby, all with Nixon, Pentagon and federal agency ties.

“To think – it was Nazis, all along.” – Jack Ruby

The “LBJ killed JFK” cover story began with James Evetts Haley – a Bircher – the first to connect Johnson to organized crime in Texas and Kennedy assassination, with particular reference to Billie Sol Estes – whose attorney was Douglas Caddy, an official of YAF. Subsequent writers have expanded on Haley’s smears, most recently and notably Barr McClellan (former Bush spokesman Scott McClellan’s papa).

Note that Haley had a history of libel. From Wikipedia:

Critic of LBJ and FDR

A sharp critic of U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson, Haley, who was a member of the John Birch Society penned, A Texan Looks at Lyndon: A Study in Illegitimate Power. The bestseller exposes Johnson’s relationship with swindler Billie Sol Estes of Pecos. Haley pointed out that the three men who could have provided evidence in court against Estes — George Krutilek, Harold Orr, and Howard Pratt — all died mysteriously of carbon monoxide poisoning from car engines. Haley’s admirers claimed in 1964 that the book was outsold in Texas only by the Holy Bible. Haley’s fellow conservative, Phyllis Schlafly, then of Alton, Illinois, and now of St. Louis, self-published the best-selling A Choice, Not an Echo to bolster the Goldwater campaign, with emphasis on what she saw as the destructive legacy of the Republican “Eastern Establishment” formerly headed by New York Governors Thomas E. Dewey and Nelson A. Rockefeller.

In 1936, in a meeting at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas, Haley organized a short-lived third party, the “Jeffersonian Democrats of Texas”, to offer opposition to President Franklin D. Roosevelt and the New Deal within Texas. In 1964, Haley returned to his previous Republican affiliation to endorse then U.S. Senator Barry M. Goldwater of Arizona, who was challenging President Johnson but fared poorly in Texas.

Haley also claimed that Johnson had a motive for the assassination of President John F. Kennedy: “Johnson wanted power and with all his knowledge of political strategy and his proven control of Congress, he could see wider horizons of power as Vice-President than as Senate Majority Leader. In effect, by presiding over the Senate, he could now conceive himself as virtually filling both high and important positions – and he was not far from wrong. Finally, as Victor Lasky pointed out, Johnson had nursed a lifetime dream to be President. As Majority leader he never could have made it. But as Vice-President fate could always intervene.”

Houston Harte, a newspaper publisher in San Angelo, who supported LBJ, said that his friend Haley had gone to the extreme in writing A Texan Looks at Lyndon. “Haley can no longer be considered a serious historian,” Harte claimed.

Historical works

In 1929, Haley published The XIT Ranch of Texas and the Early Days of the Llano Estacado. Accused of libel in a dozen lawsuits, Haley was compelled in 1931 to withdraw the book from circulation and to pay the plaintiffs $17,500 to settle all pending claims. He defended his work in which he had exposed “outlaws” and even made a trip into Mexico to authenticate a particular point in question …

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Evetts_Haley

From “The Early Days of the John Birch Society,” Psychic Dictatorship in the USA II (2008), by Alex Constantine

…. President John Kennedy responded to Birch Society criticism of his adminsitration in an address delivered at a fund-raising dinner hosted by the Democratic Party at the Hollywood Paladium on November 18, 1961. “In recent months, I have spoken many times about how difficult and dangerous a period it is through which we move. I would like to take this opportunity to say a word about the American spirit in this time of trial. In the most critical periods of our nation’s history, there have been those on the fringes of our society who have sought to escape their own responsibility by finding a simple solution, an appealing slogan or a convenient scapegoat.” Political extremists, Kennedy said, sought the easy explanation for every national crisis and ignored political complexities. A downturn in the economy “could be explained by the presence of too many immigrants.” Wars were orchestrated by “international bankers.” China ended trade relations with the world not as a result of internal conflicts, but due to “treason in high places.” With their rhetoric, “these fanatics have achieved a temporary success among those who lack the will or the vision to face unpleasant facts or unresolved problems.” …

[John Dolva]

Certainly, I think the info gathering here most enlightening.

re this sidestep, Capitalism has not failed, (it will though.) afa Communism goes, there has never been any to fail. There have been attempts to work towards it from the mid last mellinneum communards to today, and that will continue.

Part of understanding this case is understanding theses issues as it undeniably has a bearing on understanding the assassination of JFK, in fact in many ways it's a core issue, so take the discussion to another topic, and let's keep this one on track.

[John Dolva]

Certainly, I think the info gathering here most enlightening.

re this sidestep, Capitalism has not failed, (it will though.) afa Communism goes, there has never been any to fail. There have been attempts to work towards it from the mid last mellinneum communards to today, and that will continue.

Part of understanding this case is understanding theses issues as it undeniably has a bearing on understanding the assassination of JFK, in fact in many ways it's a core issue, so take the discussion to another topic, and let's keep this one on track.

I think I'm rolling over a bit here. There's a pertinence here. Because the FBI is one layer of system security it is important to understand why the FBI regards some organisations as not of interst and others of interest.

In fact I think a key to this case is a correct understanding of the nature of political ideas. The government can sanction killings and use such ideas as friendly and unfriendly fire and it does so based on expedience. What is always a conflict then is morality. There are many examples to draw from. One in particular, imo, in USofAs history of control over wage slaves is Joe Hill and he is far from the only one. This is important, imo, in evaluating the FBI and its actions and inactions.

[Ernie Lazar]

So, Bill, you think that "workers" in Cuba think their political and economic interests became paramount in Cuba after Castro took control of the Cuban government? And Cuba represents the type of society which was intended by Marx? Furthermore, wasn't the "dictatorship of the proletariat" supposed to be a temporary transition into genuine freedom?

John: Can you give me an example of any Communist or Marxist country in the 20th century that implemented what you describe below i.e. a successful "proletarian revolution" where the the new "ruling class" became ordinary "workers" whose political will and economic interests were paramount?

In other words, can you specify one or more countries where you think Marxist ideas were put into actual practice and the "dictatorship" served the interests of the "workers"?

BK: You mean other than Cuba?

an aside :

I think it is important to unerstand ''dictatorship'' in the context it is used here.

Karl Marx formulated a theory that explains social evolution.

For example in the 1600's the Monarchy in England, and its selected aristocracy, dictated the rules under which the general population lived.

These dictates inhibited the emerging merchant class.

With promises of greater freedoms to peasants, but aimed at opening up trade routes and freeing serfs so that they could move to the emerging manufacturing centres, Cromwell led the first of the Bourgeoisie revolutions, to pass the dictator-ship to the emerging Capitalists.

The serfs became the Proletariat that were now dictated to by the new ruling class.

Therefore, in a successful Proletarian, or wage slave, revolution there would be again a time when the new ruling class would dictate to the old one. This is what is called ''the dictatorship of the proletariat'' meaning the workers would be the dictators instead of the capitalists.

As the ruling class is concerned with being the ruling class its organs of defense necessarily compatmentalises its enemies and part of this ongoing war against its enemies is propaganda.

I don't believe that this understanding of dictatorship could possibly be so lost on the ruling class in capitalist nations but I certainly believe that as propaganda the false understanding of this is foisted on and believed as presented to non politicised members of the non capitalist class by the owners of the means of production.

[John Dolva]

A:

as I understand it, from a socialist perspective:

Communism is the long-term logical extension of an international Socialist revolution.

The october revolution appeared to be successful for a number of years where they implemented Marxs concept of worker cells, or soviets, as a lesson from the paris commune, as a fundamental building block.

Trotsky formulated the concept of permanent revolution, Stalin that of socialism in one country.

So, there is no example of a communist revolution. There are examples of socialist ones. Cuba of course. The early years of Soviet Russia and Nicaragua held promise, Vietnam, China, Laos, Kampuchea.

I could go on, but fundamentally, imo, without Trotskys perm rev, any revolution falters. Hence, I suspect, Cubas success.

Rome wasn't built in a day. The last successful capitalist revolution was the unification of the kingdoms that became Germany in the latter 19th century.

Fascism is the logical extension of capitalism.

[Ernie Lazar]

I have not checked recently, but I think there are still at least 10 different conspiracy "theories" (and many propose mutually exclusive actors and motives) regarding the JFK assassination.

Since they cannot all be simultaneously true then, obviously, some (or perhaps even all) are constructed with falsehoods. Nevertheless, the authors and adherents of each "theory" insist that they, and only they, have a correct understanding of this matter.

As I stated in a previous message, one of the characteristics of political conspiracy "theories" is that they are constructed to be self-sealing so they become incapable of falsification. Consequently, such "theories" live on forever in the minds of their adherents.

I certainly do not consider myself an expert about JFK assassination theories, nor even particularly knowledgeable about all of them, so I don't plan to comment upon any of them.

All I have attempted to do in this forum is bring attention to pertinent data regarding Harry Dean's claims about himself. That then morphed into a discussion about WCC. Oddly, however, I keep being told that familiarity with multiple WCC files is not particularly helpful. Instead, one need only be aware of a single document from a single field office which appears in a file concerning Barry Goldwater.

This, too, is characteristic of the methodology employed by conspiracy theorists in general -- i.e. how they select "evidence". Individual items are ripped from any source available and then elevated to supreme importance--even when there is considerable and more compelling contradictory evidence available.

Ultimately, it almost seems like discussing what flavor of ice cream tastes best. Personal preferences become paramount and available contradictory data is ignored.

The Origin of the “LBJ Killed JFK” Psyop: Bircher James Evetts Hale

http://www.antifascistencyclopedia.com/allposts/the-origin-of-the-lbj-killed-jfk-psyop-bircher-james-evetts-haley

9th July 2008

Who killed Kennedy? In a word, “Minutemen,” neo-fascists from the ultra-con Birch Society (funded early on by Nazi veterans of WW II in Germany, often linked to Nelson Bunker Hunt and others with known ties to the Kennedy murder), Young Americans for Freedom (YAF, a front for incoming Nazi spies from Munich) and Aryan-Nations/Liberty Lobby, all with Nixon, Pentagon and federal agency ties.

“To think – it was Nazis, all along.” – Jack Ruby

The “LBJ killed JFK” cover story began with James Evetts Haley – a Bircher – the first to connect Johnson to organized crime in Texas and Kennedy assassination, with particular reference to Billie Sol Estes – whose attorney was Douglas Caddy, an official of YAF. Subsequent writers have expanded on Haley’s smears, most recently and notably Barr McClellan (former Bush spokesman Scott McClellan’s papa).

Note that Haley had a history of libel. From Wikipedia:

Critic of LBJ and FDR

A sharp critic of U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson, Haley, who was a member of the John Birch Society penned, A Texan Looks at Lyndon: A Study in Illegitimate Power. The bestseller exposes Johnson’s relationship with swindler Billie Sol Estes of Pecos. Haley pointed out that the three men who could have provided evidence in court against Estes — George Krutilek, Harold Orr, and Howard Pratt — all died mysteriously of carbon monoxide poisoning from car engines. Haley’s admirers claimed in 1964 that the book was outsold in Texas only by the Holy Bible. Haley’s fellow conservative, Phyllis Schlafly, then of Alton, Illinois, and now of St. Louis, self-published the best-selling A Choice, Not an Echo to bolster the Goldwater campaign, with emphasis on what she saw as the destructive legacy of the Republican “Eastern Establishment” formerly headed by New York Governors Thomas E. Dewey and Nelson A. Rockefeller.

In 1936, in a meeting at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas, Haley organized a short-lived third party, the “Jeffersonian Democrats of Texas”, to offer opposition to President Franklin D. Roosevelt and the New Deal within Texas. In 1964, Haley returned to his previous Republican affiliation to endorse then U.S. Senator Barry M. Goldwater of Arizona, who was challenging President Johnson but fared poorly in Texas.

Haley also claimed that Johnson had a motive for the assassination of President John F. Kennedy: “Johnson wanted power and with all his knowledge of political strategy and his proven control of Congress, he could see wider horizons of power as Vice-President than as Senate Majority Leader. In effect, by presiding over the Senate, he could now conceive himself as virtually filling both high and important positions – and he was not far from wrong. Finally, as Victor Lasky pointed out, Johnson had nursed a lifetime dream to be President. As Majority leader he never could have made it. But as Vice-President fate could always intervene.”

Houston Harte, a newspaper publisher in San Angelo, who supported LBJ, said that his friend Haley had gone to the extreme in writing A Texan Looks at Lyndon. “Haley can no longer be considered a serious historian,” Harte claimed.

Historical works

In 1929, Haley published The XIT Ranch of Texas and the Early Days of the Llano Estacado. Accused of libel in a dozen lawsuits, Haley was compelled in 1931 to withdraw the book from circulation and to pay the plaintiffs $17,500 to settle all pending claims. He defended his work in which he had exposed “outlaws” and even made a trip into Mexico to authenticate a particular point in question …

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Evetts_Haley

From “The Early Days of the John Birch Society,” Psychic Dictatorship in the USA II (2008), by Alex Constantine

…. President John Kennedy responded to Birch Society criticism of his adminsitration in an address delivered at a fund-raising dinner hosted by the Democratic Party at the Hollywood Paladium on November 18, 1961. “In recent months, I have spoken many times about how difficult and dangerous a period it is through which we move. I would like to take this opportunity to say a word about the American spirit in this time of trial. In the most critical periods of our nation’s history, there have been those on the fringes of our society who have sought to escape their own responsibility by finding a simple solution, an appealing slogan or a convenient scapegoat.” Political extremists, Kennedy said, sought the easy explanation for every national crisis and ignored political complexities. A downturn in the economy “could be explained by the presence of too many immigrants.” Wars were orchestrated by “international bankers.” China ended trade relations with the world not as a result of internal conflicts, but due to “treason in high places.” With their rhetoric, “these fanatics have achieved a temporary success among those who lack the will or the vision to face unpleasant facts or unresolved problems.” …

Edited June 28, 2010 by Ernie Lazar

[Bernice Moore]

The Origin of the “LBJ Killed JFK” Psyop: Bircher James Evetts Hale

http://www.antifascistencyclopedia.com/allposts/the-origin-of-the-lbj-killed-jfk-psyop-bircher-james-evetts-haley

9th July 2008

Who killed Kennedy? In a word, “Minutemen,” neo-fascists from the ultra-con Birch Society (funded early on by Nazi veterans of WW II in Germany, often linked to Nelson Bunker Hunt and others with known ties to the Kennedy murder), Young Americans for Freedom (YAF, a front for incoming Nazi spies from Munich) and Aryan-Nations/Liberty Lobby, all with Nixon, Pentagon and federal agency ties.

“To think – it was Nazis, all along.” – Jack Ruby

The “LBJ killed JFK” cover story began with James Evetts Haley – a Bircher – the first to connect Johnson to organized crime in Texas and Kennedy assassination, with particular reference to Billie Sol Estes – whose attorney was Douglas Caddy, an official of YAF. Subsequent writers have expanded on Haley’s smears, most recently and notably Barr McClellan (former Bush spokesman Scott McClellan’s papa).

Note that Haley had a history of libel. From Wikipedia:

Critic of LBJ and FDR

A sharp critic of U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson, Haley, who was a member of the John Birch Society penned, A Texan Looks at Lyndon: A Study in Illegitimate Power. The bestseller exposes Johnson’s relationship with swindler Billie Sol Estes of Pecos. Haley pointed out that the three men who could have provided evidence in court against Estes — George Krutilek, Harold Orr, and Howard Pratt — all died mysteriously of carbon monoxide poisoning from car engines. Haley’s admirers claimed in 1964 that the book was outsold in Texas only by the Holy Bible. Haley’s fellow conservative, Phyllis Schlafly, then of Alton, Illinois, and now of St. Louis, self-published the best-selling A Choice, Not an Echo to bolster the Goldwater campaign, with emphasis on what she saw as the destructive legacy of the Republican “Eastern Establishment” formerly headed by New York Governors Thomas E. Dewey and Nelson A. Rockefeller.

In 1936, in a meeting at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas, Haley organized a short-lived third party, the “Jeffersonian Democrats of Texas”, to offer opposition to President Franklin D. Roosevelt and the New Deal within Texas. In 1964, Haley returned to his previous Republican affiliation to endorse then U.S. Senator Barry M. Goldwater of Arizona, who was challenging President Johnson but fared poorly in Texas.

Haley also claimed that Johnson had a motive for the assassination of President John F. Kennedy: “Johnson wanted power and with all his knowledge of political strategy and his proven control of Congress, he could see wider horizons of power as Vice-President than as Senate Majority Leader. In effect, by presiding over the Senate, he could now conceive himself as virtually filling both high and important positions – and he was not far from wrong. Finally, as Victor Lasky pointed out, Johnson had nursed a lifetime dream to be President. As Majority leader he never could have made it. But as Vice-President fate could always intervene.”

Houston Harte, a newspaper publisher in San Angelo, who supported LBJ, said that his friend Haley had gone to the extreme in writing A Texan Looks at Lyndon. “Haley can no longer be considered a serious historian,” Harte claimed.

Historical works

In 1929, Haley published The XIT Ranch of Texas and the Early Days of the Llano Estacado. Accused of libel in a dozen lawsuits, Haley was compelled in 1931 to withdraw the book from circulation and to pay the plaintiffs $17,500 to settle all pending claims. He defended his work in which he had exposed “outlaws” and even made a trip into Mexico to authenticate a particular point in question …

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Evetts_Haley

From “The Early Days of the John Birch Society,” Psychic Dictatorship in the USA II (2008), by Alex Constantine

…. President John Kennedy responded to Birch Society criticism of his adminsitration in an address delivered at a fund-raising dinner hosted by the Democratic Party at the Hollywood Paladium on November 18, 1961. “In recent months, I have spoken many times about how difficult and dangerous a period it is through which we move. I would like to take this opportunity to say a word about the American spirit in this time of trial. In the most critical periods of our nation’s history, there have been those on the fringes of our society who have sought to escape their own responsibility by finding a simple solution, an appealing slogan or a convenient scapegoat.” Political extremists, Kennedy said, sought the easy explanation for every national crisis and ignored political complexities. A downturn in the economy “could be explained by the presence of too many immigrants.” Wars were orchestrated by “international bankers.” China ended trade relations with the world not as a result of internal conflicts, but due to “treason in high places.” With their rhetoric, “these fanatics have achieved a temporary success among those who lack the will or the vision to face unpleasant facts or unresolved problems.” …

[Bernice Moore]

BILL YOU AND OR. MAY BE INTERESTED IN THESE TWO OLDIES.. .BEST B

THE FBI ON THE JFK ASSASSINATION

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JA/DR/.dr19.html

YELLOW ROSES

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JA/DR/.dr14.html

[William Kelly]

I have not checked recently, but I think there are still at least 10 different conspiracy "theories" (and many propose mutually exclusive actors and motives) regarding the JFK assassination.

Since they cannot all be simultaneously true then, obviously, some (or perhaps even all) are constructed with falsehoods. Nevertheless, the authors and adherents of each "theory" insist that they, and only they, have a correct understanding of this matter.

BK: Hi Ernie, Agreed, they all can't be true, but the assassination only happened one way, and it is the job of the real historian and journalist, not to become an expert in all of he CTs but to try to determine what really happened.

As I stated in a previous message, one of the characteristics of political conspiracy "theories" is that they are constructed to be self-sealing so they become incapable of falsification. Consequently, such "theories" live on forever in the minds of their adherents.

BK: It is not only CTs who construct such self-sealing falsehoods, but prosecutors, Commissions and those officials who make them real in court - thus convicting the innocent, as the Innocent Project in Dallas has thus far exonerated many wrongfully convicted innocent citizens. So it isn't just a matter of debate or opinion, as it is with CTs, who you seem to have a fascination with.

I certainly do not consider myself an expert about JFK assassination theories, nor even particularly knowledgeable about all of them, so I don't plan to comment upon any of them.

BK: Vincent Bugliosi, who is an expert on most CTs, has done enough of that for you, without ever even commenting on what really happened, so I appreciate you not bothering.

All I have attempted to do in this forum is bring attention to pertinent data regarding Harry Dean's claims about himself.

BK: Thanks, now we are reviewing Harry's files as well as the FBI's records, and other domestic intelligence networks to see who he really was working for, and Harry is cooperating. It's a shame you had to come out and call him a xxxx to start things off or he could have cooperated with you and gave you the info needed to get his complete file.

That then morphed into a discussion about WCC. Oddly, however, I keep being told that familiarity with multiple WCC files is not particularly helpful. Instead, one need only be aware of a single document from a single field office which appears in a file concerning Barry Goldwater.

This, too, is characteristic of the methodology employed by conspiracy theorists in general -- i.e. how they select "evidence". Individual items are ripped from any source available and then elevated to supreme importance--even when there is considerable and more compelling contradictory evidence available.

BK: This is also the process used by prosecutors who try to nail the suspect they want to convict even though they know him to be innocent, as the Secret Service, in their attempted "reenactments" determiend that Oswald could not have been the Sixth Floor Sniper and didn't bother running the rest of the reenactment though the hoops. This is also the process you used to convict Harry as xxxx even being unfamiliar with his released files and first hand story.

Ultimately, it almost seems like discussing what flavor of ice cream tastes best. Personal preferences become paramount and available contradictory data is ignored.

BK: Since what happened at Dealey Plaza only happened in one flavor, it would be nice to know what happened, and to focus on what is known to be true and to develop that information further so the still unanswered questions can be answered accurately. As there are two definations of forensics, one a debate and the other to determine evidence that can be admitted into court of law, I prefer not to debate and to look for the witnesses and evidence that lead us to the truth because I believe that we can and will know what actually happened to an legal and moral certainty, while those who usually want to debate say that we won't ever know.

The Origin of the "LBJ Killed JFK" Psyop: Bircher James Evetts Hale

9th July 2008

Who killed Kennedy? In a word, "Minutemen," neo-fascists from the ultra-con Birch Society (funded early on by Nazi veterans of WW II in Germany, often linked to Nelson Bunker Hunt and others with known ties to the Kennedy murder), Young Americans for Freedom (YAF, a front for incoming Nazi spies from Munich) and Aryan-Nations/Liberty Lobby, all with Nixon, Pentagon and federal agency ties.

"To think it was Nazis, all along." Jack Ruby

The "LBJ killed JFK" cover story began with James Evetts Haley a Bircher the first to connect Johnson to organized crime in Texas and Kennedy assassination, with particular reference to Billie Sol Estes whose attorney was Douglas Caddy, an official of YAF. Subsequent writers have expanded on Haley's smears, most recently and notably Barr McClellan (former Bush spokesman Scott McClellan's papa).

Note that Haley had a history of libel. From Wikipedia:

Critic of LBJ and FDR

A sharp critic of U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson, Haley, who was a member of the John Birch Society penned, A Texan Looks at Lyndon: A Study in Illegitimate Power. The bestseller exposes Johnson's relationship with swindler Billie Sol Estes of Pecos. Haley pointed out that the three men who could have provided evidence in court against Estes George Krutilek, Harold Orr, and Howard Pratt all died mysteriously of carbon monoxide poisoning from car engines. Haley's admirers claimed in 1964 that the book was outsold in Texas only by the Holy Bible. Haley's fellow conservative, Phyllis Schlafly, then of Alton, Illinois, and now of St. Louis, self-published the best-selling A Choice, Not an Echo to bolster the Goldwater campaign, with emphasis on what she saw as the destructive legacy of the Republican "Eastern Establishment" formerly headed by New York Governors Thomas E. Dewey and Nelson A. Rockefeller.

In 1936, in a meeting at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas, Haley organized a short-lived third party, the "Jeffersonian Democrats of Texas", to offer opposition to President Franklin D. Roosevelt and the New Deal within Texas. In 1964, Haley returned to his previous Republican affiliation to endorse then U.S. Senator Barry M. Goldwater of Arizona, who was challenging President Johnson but fared poorly in Texas.

Haley also claimed that Johnson had a motive for the assassination of President John F. Kennedy: "Johnson wanted power and with all his knowledge of political strategy and his proven control of Congress, he could see wider horizons of power as Vice-President than as Senate Majority Leader. In effect, by presiding over the Senate, he could now conceive himself as virtually filling both high and important positions and he was not far from wrong. Finally, as Victor Lasky pointed out, Johnson had nursed a lifetime dream to be President. As Majority leader he never could have made it. But as Vice-President fate could always intervene."

Houston Harte, a newspaper publisher in San Angelo, who supported LBJ, said that his friend Haley had gone to the extreme in writing A Texan Looks at Lyndon. "Haley can no longer be considered a serious historian," Harte claimed.

Historical works

In 1929, Haley published The XIT Ranch of Texas and the Early Days of the Llano Estacado. Accused of libel in a dozen lawsuits, Haley was compelled in 1931 to withdraw the book from circulation and to pay the plaintiffs $17,500 to settle all pending claims. He defended his work in which he had exposed "outlaws" and even made a trip into Mexico to authenticate a particular point in question …

http://en.wikipedia....J._Evetts_Haley

From "The Early Days of the John Birch Society," Psychic Dictatorship in the USA II (2008), by Alex Constantine

…. President John Kennedy responded to Birch Society criticism of his adminsitration in an address delivered at a fund-raising dinner hosted by the Democratic Party at the Hollywood Paladium on November 18, 1961. "In recent months, I have spoken many times about how difficult and dangerous a period it is through which we move. I would like to take this opportunity to say a word about the American spirit in this time of trial. In the most critical periods of our nation's history, there have been those on the fringes of our society who have sought to escape their own responsibility by finding a simple solution, an appealing slogan or a convenient scapegoat." Political extremists, Kennedy said, sought the easy explanation for every national crisis and ignored political complexities. A downturn in the economy "could be explained by the presence of too many immigrants." Wars were orchestrated by "international bankers." China ended trade relations with the world not as a result of internal conflicts, but due to "treason in high places." With their rhetoric, "these fanatics have achieved a temporary success among those who lack the will or the vision to face unpleasant facts or unresolved problems." …

Edited June 28, 2010 by William Kelly

[Ernie Lazar]

BILL: Just a brief comment.

I did not call Harry Dean "a xxxx". I reported (factually and accurately) that there is no confirming evidence of any kind whatsoever in any pertinent FBI file on the JBS that supports Harry's claims about himself.

Furthermore, I quoted accurately and truthfully what the Assistant Director of the FBI's Los Angeles field office stated about Harry Dean.

Apparently, you do not understand the purpose of research. You think presenting factual data which contradicts what somebody claims amounts to accusing somebody of "lying".

Also, with respect to this comment by you:

"This is also the process you used to convict Harry as xxxx even being unfamiliar with his released files and first hand story."

Although I did not call Harry a xxxx, I will now say this about YOU: You are a xxxx!

First, I did not accuse Harry of being a xxxx.

Second, I am familiar with what Harry has posted in Education Forum.

Third, I am familiar with every FBI file on the JBS.

Fourth, I am familiar with DOZENS of FBI informant files.

In the complete absence of any supporting information from Harry, and in the absence of any corroborating data about Harry within FBI files pertaining to the JBS --- there obviously is no factual basis for believing what Harry has written in this forum. [incidentally, has Harry ever stated whether or not he used the name Harry Dean while he allegedly belonged to the JBS -- or was he a JBS member under a different name?]

Furthermore, one has to ask an obvious question:

What specific information about the JBS did the FBI want so bad circa September 1963 --- which is when Harry claims that he began informing on the JBS --- that the Bureau decided it needed an "informant" (such as Harry) to obtain it?

And, as a corollary question---why is there no reference of any kind whatsoever in either the Birch Society FBI HQ file (62-104401) or the Los Angeles field office file (100-59001) to that information they sought and obtained from informant(s)?

I have not checked recently, but I think there are still at least 10 different conspiracy "theories" (and many propose mutually exclusive actors and motives) regarding the JFK assassination.

Since they cannot all be simultaneously true then, obviously, some (or perhaps even all) are constructed with falsehoods. Nevertheless, the authors and adherents of each "theory" insist that they, and only they, have a correct understanding of this matter.

BK: Hi Ernie, Agreed, they all can't be true, but the assassination only happened one way, and it is the job of the real historian and journalist, not to become an expert in all of he CTs but to try to determine what really happened.

As I stated in a previous message, one of the characteristics of political conspiracy "theories" is that they are constructed to be self-sealing so they become incapable of falsification. Consequently, such "theories" live on forever in the minds of their adherents.

BK: It is not only CTs who construct such self-sealing falsehoods, but prosecutors, Commissions and those officials who make them real in court - thus convicting the innocent, as the Innocent Project in Dallas has thus far exonerated many wrongfully convicted innocent citizens. So it isn't just a matter of debate or opinion, as it is with CTs, who you seem to have a fascination with.

I certainly do not consider myself an expert about JFK assassination theories, nor even particularly knowledgeable about all of them, so I don't plan to comment upon any of them.

BK: Vincent Bugliosi, who is an expert on most CTs, has done enough of that for you, without ever even commenting on what really happened, so I appreciate you not bothering.

All I have attempted to do in this forum is bring attention to pertinent data regarding Harry Dean's claims about himself.

BK: Thanks, now we are reviewing Harry's files as well as the FBI's records, and other domestic intelligence networks to see who he really was working for, and Harry is cooperating. It's a shame you had to come out and call him a xxxx to start things off or he could have cooperated with you and gave you the info needed to get his complete file.

That then morphed into a discussion about WCC. Oddly, however, I keep being told that familiarity with multiple WCC files is not particularly helpful. Instead, one need only be aware of a single document from a single field office which appears in a file concerning Barry Goldwater.

This, too, is characteristic of the methodology employed by conspiracy theorists in general -- i.e. how they select "evidence". Individual items are ripped from any source available and then elevated to supreme importance--even when there is considerable and more compelling contradictory evidence available.

BK: This is also the process used by prosecutors who try to nail the suspect they want to convict even though they know him to be innocent, as the Secret Service, in their attempted "reenactments" determiend that Oswald could not have been the Sixth Floor Sniper and didn't bother running the rest of the reenactment though the hoops. This is also the process you used to convict Harry as xxxx even being unfamiliar with his released files and first hand story.

Ultimately, it almost seems like discussing what flavor of ice cream tastes best. Personal preferences become paramount and available contradictory data is ignored.

BK: Since what happened at Dealey Plaza only happened in one flavor, it would be nice to know what happened, and to focus on what is known to be true and to develop that information further so the still unanswered questions can be answered accurately. As there are two definations of forensics, one a debate and the other to determine evidence that can be admitted into court of law, I prefer not to debate and to look for the witnesses and evidence that lead us to the truth because I believe that we can and will know what actually happened to an legal and moral certainty, while those who usually want to debate say that we won't ever know.

The Origin of the "LBJ Killed JFK" Psyop: Bircher James Evetts Hale

9th July 2008

Who killed Kennedy? In a word, "Minutemen," neo-fascists from the ultra-con Birch Society (funded early on by Nazi veterans of WW II in Germany, often linked to Nelson Bunker Hunt and others with known ties to the Kennedy murder), Young Americans for Freedom (YAF, a front for incoming Nazi spies from Munich) and Aryan-Nations/Liberty Lobby, all with Nixon, Pentagon and federal agency ties.

"To think – it was Nazis, all along." – Jack Ruby

The "LBJ killed JFK" cover story began with James Evetts Haley – a Bircher – the first to connect Johnson to organized crime in Texas and Kennedy assassination, with particular reference to Billie Sol Estes – whose attorney was Douglas Caddy, an official of YAF. Subsequent writers have expanded on Haley's smears, most recently and notably Barr McClellan (former Bush spokesman Scott McClellan's papa).

Note that Haley had a history of libel. From Wikipedia:

Critic of LBJ and FDR

A sharp critic of U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson, Haley, who was a member of the John Birch Society penned, A Texan Looks at Lyndon: A Study in Illegitimate Power. The bestseller exposes Johnson's relationship with swindler Billie Sol Estes of Pecos. Haley pointed out that the three men who could have provided evidence in court against Estes — George Krutilek, Harold Orr, and Howard Pratt — all died mysteriously of carbon monoxide poisoning from car engines. Haley's admirers claimed in 1964 that the book was outsold in Texas only by the Holy Bible. Haley's fellow conservative, Phyllis Schlafly, then of Alton, Illinois, and now of St. Louis, self-published the best-selling A Choice, Not an Echo to bolster the Goldwater campaign, with emphasis on what she saw as the destructive legacy of the Republican "Eastern Establishment" formerly headed by New York Governors Thomas E. Dewey and Nelson A. Rockefeller.

In 1936, in a meeting at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas, Haley organized a short-lived third party, the "Jeffersonian Democrats of Texas", to offer opposition to President Franklin D. Roosevelt and the New Deal within Texas. In 1964, Haley returned to his previous Republican affiliation to endorse then U.S. Senator Barry M. Goldwater of Arizona, who was challenging President Johnson but fared poorly in Texas.

Haley also claimed that Johnson had a motive for the assassination of President John F. Kennedy: "Johnson wanted power and with all his knowledge of political strategy and his proven control of Congress, he could see wider horizons of power as Vice-President than as Senate Majority Leader. In effect, by presiding over the Senate, he could now conceive himself as virtually filling both high and important positions – and he was not far from wrong. Finally, as Victor Lasky pointed out, Johnson had nursed a lifetime dream to be President. As Majority leader he never could have made it. But as Vice-President fate could always intervene."

Houston Harte, a newspaper publisher in San Angelo, who supported LBJ, said that his friend Haley had gone to the extreme in writing A Texan Looks at Lyndon. "Haley can no longer be considered a serious historian," Harte claimed.

Historical works

In 1929, Haley published The XIT Ranch of Texas and the Early Days of the Llano Estacado. Accused of libel in a dozen lawsuits, Haley was compelled in 1931 to withdraw the book from circulation and to pay the plaintiffs $17,500 to settle all pending claims. He defended his work in which he had exposed "outlaws" and even made a trip into Mexico to authenticate a particular point in question …

http://en.wikipedia....J._Evetts_Haley

From "The Early Days of the John Birch Society," Psychic Dictatorship in the USA II (2008), by Alex Constantine

…. President John Kennedy responded to Birch Society criticism of his adminsitration in an address delivered at a fund-raising dinner hosted by the Democratic Party at the Hollywood Paladium on November 18, 1961. "In recent months, I have spoken many times about how difficult and dangerous a period it is through which we move. I would like to take this opportunity to say a word about the American spirit in this time of trial. In the most critical periods of our nation's history, there have been those on the fringes of our society who have sought to escape their own responsibility by finding a simple solution, an appealing slogan or a convenient scapegoat." Political extremists, Kennedy said, sought the easy explanation for every national crisis and ignored political complexities. A downturn in the economy "could be explained by the presence of too many immigrants." Wars were orchestrated by "international bankers." China ended trade relations with the world not as a result of internal conflicts, but due to "treason in high places." With their rhetoric, "these fanatics have achieved a temporary success among those who lack the will or the vision to face unpleasant facts or unresolved problems." …

Edited July 1, 2010 by Ernie Lazar

[William Kelly]

BILL: Just a brief comment.

I did not call Harry Dean "a xxxx". I reported (factually and accurately) that there is no confirming evidence of any kind whatsoever in any pertinent FBI file on the JBS that supports Harry's claims about himself.

BK: HI ERNIE, let's get a few things straight here. I first learned about Harry Dean when his files were released by the JFK Act and copies sent to Festerwald/Jim Lesar's AARC, where I noticed that among the over a hundred documents, some many pages long, that Harry was a FPCC informant who went to Cuba and was debriefed by the CIA. I also found it interesting that Harry recognized himself as a player who had a role similar to that of the accused assassin. Years later Harry registered as a member of the JFKResearch forum, and I sent him a series of questions that he answered honestly, and he has since answered all my questions and sent me a copy of his unpublished manuscript.

As a member of this forum, Harry posts infrequently, though shortly after one of his more recent posts regarding the connections between the John Birch Society and the assassination of President Kennedy, you joined the forum and claimed that there is no official record of Harry being an FBI informant, especially in regards to the JBS.

BK: Okay, like Oswald, who behaved in a very similar fashion as Harry Dean, except Harry actually got to Cuba, we would like to know who both Oswald and Harry Dean were operating for in a covert manner, most originally saying the FBI, though there is no official record of Oswald being an FBI informant, and you saying the same thing about Harry. So now, we are reviewing the records to see if Harry could have been working for a different agency other than the FBI or CIA, and things may be panning out, and determining who Harry was really working for could tell us who Oswald was really working for too.

Furthermore, I quoted accurately and truthfully what the Assistant Director of the FBI's Los Angeles field office stated about Harry Dean.

Apparently, you do not understand the purpose of research. You think presenting factual data which contradicts what somebody claims amounts to accusing somebody of "lying".

BK: Wait a minute. You are the one who keep saying that because there is no evidence in the FBI files that Harry informed on the JBS, that everything he says is untrue, but I say, then Harry wasn't working for the FBI but another domestic anti-Communist intelligence agency, probably Army G2 but possibly another, unkown group whose files we don't have access to. For me, research is taking what we know and learning more, taking the research FURTHER - not winning an internet debate.

Also, with respect to this comment by you:

"This is also the process you used to convict Harry as xxxx even being unfamiliar with his released files and first hand story."

Although I did not call Harry a xxxx, I will now say this about YOU: You are a xxxx!

First, I did not accuse Harry of being a xxxx.

Ernie wrote in the first post : I acquired numerous FBI files on actual informants it authorized to infiltrate both legitimate and subversive organizations -- and I am, therefore, intimately familiar with the type of data contained in such files -- it is 100% certain that Harry Dean is misrepresenting his "FBI" association in order to inflate his credentials.

Furthermore, Harry Dean is on record stating that former FBI Special Agents Dan Smoot and W. Cleon Skousen were "members" of the Birch Society. But that is a total falsehood. Neither Smoot or Skousen joined the JBS. They did, however, support the JBS and both spoke at JBS functions or wrote for JBS publications.

BK: So Harry is not a xxxx but he is misrepresenting his FBI association in order to inflate his credentials - his credentials as what? An FBI informant? A covert operator? Not a xxxx but misrepresenting and inflating credentials?

Second, I am familiar with what Harry has posted in Education Forum.

BK: But you still haven't read his manuscript or the hundred or so official government documents that have been released under the JFK Act that document Harry Dean's associations with the FPCC and JBS and friendship with other members of both organizations?

Third, I am familiar with every FBI file on the JBS.

BK: Yea, how bout this one:

October 1 1963: Ernesto Castellanos, Cuban exile who took part in Bay of Pigs invasion, is secretly tape-recorded at John Birch Society meeting in Dallas saying "We're waiting for Kennedy the 22nd. We're going to see him in one way or the other. We're going to give him the works when he gets in Dallas."

http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/JFKtimeline.html

Fourth, I am familiar with DOZENS of FBI informant files.

BK: Then you should be familiar with the one thousand pages of COINTELPRO documents stolen from the Media, Pa. FBI office in 1970. Do you have a complete copy of these documents? The COINTELPRO program began in 1956 and targeted the Socialist Workers Party - the same group that puts out the MILITANT magazine that the accused assassin is holding in the backyard photo, along with the rifle said to have been used to kill the President and the pistol said to have been used to kill DPD officer JD Tippit. The COINTELPRO docs and the infiltration of the SWP and other such groups like FPCC and CNVA, whose WIN magazine published the COINTELPRO docs, are all relevant to what happened at Dealey Plaza, especially if Oswald had anything to do with the assassination.

In the complete absence of any supporting information from Harry, and in the absence of any corroborating data about Harry within FBI files pertaining to the JBS --- there obviously is no factual basis for believing what Harry has written in this forum. [incidentally, has Harry ever stated whether or not he used the name Harry Dean while he allegedly belonged to the JBS -- or was he a JBS member under a different name?]

BK: You conclude what you want to believe, but In the absense of any corroborating data about Harry, I conclude that he wasn't an FBI informant but worked for another domestic, anti-Communist intelligence agency/network, probably the same one Oswald was operating with.

BK: Hey, good question as to alias. Why not ask Harry? I believe Harry, and I think you're conclusion that Harry is totally discredited is an attempt to defray attention from what he has been trying to tell us - there's more to this John Birch Socity business at Dealy Plaza than we have been led to believe.

Furthermore, one has to ask an obvious question:

What specific information about the JBS did the FBI want so bad circa September 1963 --- which is when Harry claims that he began informing on the JBS --- that the Bureau decided it needed an "informant" (such as Harry) to obtain it?

BK: I don't believe that Harry was infiltrating the JBS for FBI, as you have convinced me otherwise, mainly because they already controlled the whole operation from the top down, just as they also controlled the opposition to the JBS, the World Federalists, from the top down. You are right, they didn't need informants.

And, as a corollary question---why is there no reference of any kind whatsoever in either the Birch Society FBI HQ file (62-104401) or the Los Angeles field office file (100-59001) to that information they sought and obtained from informant(s)?

BK: Because Harry was actually working undercover for another agency and network.

I have not checked recently, but I think there are still at least 10 different conspiracy "theories" (and many propose mutually exclusive actors and motives) regarding the JFK assassination.

Since they cannot all be simultaneously true then, obviously, some (or perhaps even all) are constructed with falsehoods. Nevertheless, the authors and adherents of each "theory" insist that they, and only they, have a correct understanding of this matter.

BK: Hi Ernie, Agreed, they all can't be true, but the assassination only happened one way, and it is the job of the real historian and journalist, not to become an expert in all of he CTs but to try to determine what really happened.

As I stated in a previous message, one of the characteristics of political conspiracy "theories" is that they are constructed to be self-sealing so they become incapable of falsification. Consequently, such "theories" live on forever in the minds of their adherents.

BK: It is not only CTs who construct such self-sealing falsehoods, but prosecutors, Commissions and those officials who make them real in court - thus convicting the innocent, as the Innocent Project in Dallas has thus far exonerated many wrongfully convicted innocent citizens. So it isn't just a matter of debate or opinion, as it is with CTs, who you seem to have a fascination with.

I certainly do not consider myself an expert about JFK assassination theories, nor even particularly knowledgeable about all of them, so I don't plan to comment upon any of them.

BK: Vincent Bugliosi, who is an expert on most CTs, has done enough of that for you, without ever even commenting on what really happened, so I appreciate you not bothering.

All I have attempted to do in this forum is bring attention to pertinent data regarding Harry Dean's claims about himself.

BK: Thanks, now we are reviewing Harry's files as well as the FBI's records, and other domestic intelligence networks to see who he really was working for, and Harry is cooperating. It's a shame you had to come out and call him a xxxx to start things off or he could have cooperated with you and gave you the info needed to get his complete file.

That then morphed into a discussion about WCC. Oddly, however, I keep being told that familiarity with multiple WCC files is not particularly helpful. Instead, one need only be aware of a single document from a single field office which appears in a file concerning Barry Goldwater.

This, too, is characteristic of the methodology employed by conspiracy theorists in general -- i.e. how they select "evidence". Individual items are ripped from any source available and then elevated to supreme importance--even when there is considerable and more compelling contradictory evidence available.

BK: This is also the process used by prosecutors who try to nail the suspect they want to convict even though they know him to be innocent, as the Secret Service, in their attempted "reenactments" determiend that Oswald could not have been the Sixth Floor Sniper and didn't bother running the rest of the reenactment though the hoops. This is also the process you used to convict Harry as xxxx even being unfamiliar with his released files and first hand story.

Ultimately, it almost seems like discussing what flavor of ice cream tastes best. Personal preferences become paramount and available contradictory data is ignored.

BK: Since what happened at Dealey Plaza only happened in one flavor, it would be nice to know what happened, and to focus on what is known to be true and to develop that information further so the still unanswered questions can be answered accurately. As there are two definations of forensics, one a debate and the other to determine evidence that can be admitted into court of law, I prefer not to debate and to look for the witnesses and evidence that lead us to the truth because I believe that we can and will know what actually happened to an legal and moral certainty, while those who usually want to debate say that we won't ever know.

The Origin of the "LBJ Killed JFK" Psyop: Bircher James Evetts Hale

9th July 2008

Who killed Kennedy? In a word, "Minutemen," neo-fascists from the ultra-con Birch Society (funded early on by Nazi veterans of WW II in Germany, often linked to Nelson Bunker Hunt and others with known ties to the Kennedy murder), Young Americans for Freedom (YAF, a front for incoming Nazi spies from Munich) and Aryan-Nations/Liberty Lobby, all with Nixon, Pentagon and federal agency ties.

"To think – it was Nazis, all along." – Jack Ruby

The "LBJ killed JFK" cover story began with James Evetts Haley – a Bircher – the first to connect Johnson to organized crime in Texas and Kennedy assassination, with particular reference to Billie Sol Estes – whose attorney was Douglas Caddy, an official of YAF. Subsequent writers have expanded on Haley's smears, most recently and notably Barr McClellan (former Bush spokesman Scott McClellan's papa).

Note that Haley had a history of libel. From Wikipedia:

Critic of LBJ and FDR

A sharp critic of U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson, Haley, who was a member of the John Birch Society penned, A Texan Looks at Lyndon: A Study in Illegitimate Power. The bestseller exposes Johnson's relationship with swindler Billie Sol Estes of Pecos. Haley pointed out that the three men who could have provided evidence in court against Estes — George Krutilek, Harold Orr, and Howard Pratt — all died mysteriously of carbon monoxide poisoning from car engines. Haley's admirers claimed in 1964 that the book was outsold in Texas only by the Holy Bible. Haley's fellow conservative, Phyllis Schlafly, then of Alton, Illinois, and now of St. Louis, self-published the best-selling A Choice, Not an Echo to bolster the Goldwater campaign, with emphasis on what she saw as the destructive legacy of the Republican "Eastern Establishment" formerly headed by New York Governors Thomas E. Dewey and Nelson A. Rockefeller.

In 1936, in a meeting at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas, Haley organized a short-lived third party, the "Jeffersonian Democrats of Texas", to offer opposition to President Franklin D. Roosevelt and the New Deal within Texas. In 1964, Haley returned to his previous Republican affiliation to endorse then U.S. Senator Barry M. Goldwater of Arizona, who was challenging President Johnson but fared poorly in Texas.

Haley also claimed that Johnson had a motive for the assassination of President John F. Kennedy: "Johnson wanted power and with all his knowledge of political strategy and his proven control of Congress, he could see wider horizons of power as Vice-President than as Senate Majority Leader. In effect, by presiding over the Senate, he could now conceive himself as virtually filling both high and important positions – and he was not far from wrong. Finally, as Victor Lasky pointed out, Johnson had nursed a lifetime dream to be President. As Majority leader he never could have made it. But as Vice-President fate could always intervene."

Houston Harte, a newspaper publisher in San Angelo, who supported LBJ, said that his friend Haley had gone to the extreme in writing A Texan Looks at Lyndon. "Haley can no longer be considered a serious historian," Harte claimed.

Historical works

In 1929, Haley published The XIT Ranch of Texas and the Early Days of the Llano Estacado. Accused of libel in a dozen lawsuits, Haley was compelled in 1931 to withdraw the book from circulation and to pay the plaintiffs $17,500 to settle all pending claims. He defended his work in which he had exposed "outlaws" and even made a trip into Mexico to authenticate a particular point in question …

http://en.wikipedia....J._Evetts_Haley

From "The Early Days of the John Birch Society," Psychic Dictatorship in the USA II (2008), by Alex Constantine

…. President John Kennedy responded to Birch Society criticism of his adminsitration in an address delivered at a fund-raising dinner hosted by the Democratic Party at the Hollywood Paladium on November 18, 1961. "In recent months, I have spoken many times about how difficult and dangerous a period it is through which we move. I would like to take this opportunity to say a word about the American spirit in this time of trial. In the most critical periods of our nation's history, there have been those on the fringes of our society who have sought to escape their own responsibility by finding a simple solution, an appealing slogan or a convenient scapegoat." Political extremists, Kennedy said, sought the easy explanation for every national crisis and ignored political complexities. A downturn in the economy "could be explained by the presence of too many immigrants." Wars were orchestrated by "international bankers." China ended trade relations with the world not as a result of internal conflicts, but due to "treason in high places." With their rhetoric, "these fanatics have achieved a temporary success among those who lack the will or the vision to face unpleasant facts or unresolved problems." …

[Ernie Lazar]

Bill -- My comments are in blue font.

BILL: Just a brief comment.

I did not call Harry Dean "a xxxx". I reported (factually and accurately) that there is no confirming evidence of any kind whatsoever in any pertinent FBI file on the JBS that supports Harry's claims about himself.

BK: HI ERNIE, let's get a few things straight here. I first learned about Harry Dean when his files were released by the JFK Act and copies sent to Festerwald/Jim Lesar's AARC, where I noticed that among the over a hundred documents, some many pages long, that Harry was a FPCC informant who went to Cuba and was debriefed by the CIA. I also found it interesting that Harry recognized himself as a player who had a role similar to that of the accused assassin. Years later Harry registered as a member of the JFKResearch forum, and I sent him a series of questions that he answered honestly, and he has since answered all my questions and sent me a copy of his unpublished manuscript.

As a member of this forum, Harry posts infrequently, though shortly after one of his more recent posts regarding the connections between the John Birch Society and the assassination of President Kennedy, you joined the forum and claimed that there is no official record of Harry being an FBI informant, especially in regards to the JBS.

There is no connection whatsoever between the time I posted my original message here and the message you reference by Harry because I never even saw his message!

As I previously explained, I had been trying for two years to join Education Forum but I constantly got messages stating that registration was closed. I contacted John Simkin and he added me. This surprised me because the email address I used to contact John came back as "undeliverable". In any event, I never saw anything recently posted by Harry Dean -- period. Everything I saw was originally posted 5 years ago -- and particularly I refer to Harry's answers to questions posed to him by John Simkin in this thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4269

I also received inquiries last year from people who had read Harry's claims concerning his alleged FBI connection. Those folks had read my on-line reports pertaining to the JBS and they asked me whether or not I could confirm that Harry "infiltrated" the JBS at the request of the FBI.

BK: Okay, like Oswald, who behaved in a very similar fashion as Harry Dean, except Harry actually got to Cuba, we would like to know who both Oswald and Harry Dean were operating for in a covert manner, most originally saying the FBI, though there is no official record of Oswald being an FBI informant, and you saying the same thing about Harry.

There is no evidence that Harry was "operating" for the FBI in a "covert" manner.

Normally, the absence of confirming evidence invalidates speculations. You may recall that in my reply to Harry's message in this thread, I asked him to provide such data as the name(s) of his "FBI" handlers, his FBI code name, the name of his JBS chapter leader, etc. But he chose not to answer.

So now, we are reviewing the records to see if Harry could have been working for a different agency other than the FBI or CIA, and things may be panning out, and determining who Harry was really working for could tell us who Oswald was really working for too.

Furthermore, I quoted accurately and truthfully what the Assistant Director of the FBI's Los Angeles field office stated about Harry Dean.

Apparently, you do not understand the purpose of research. You think presenting factual data which contradicts what somebody claims amounts to accusing somebody of "lying".

BK: Wait a minute. You are the one who keep saying that because there is no evidence in the FBI files that Harry informed on the JBS, that everything he says is untrue, but I say, then Harry wasn't working for the FBI but another domestic anti-Communist intelligence agency, probably Army G2 but possibly another, unkown group whose files we don't have access to.

G-2 and the FBI routinely exchanged information with each other---as did ONI and OSI. But since I have all of the military intelligence reports that were sent to the FBI regarding the JBS, don't you think it is very odd that there are no reports which mention any person who infiltrated a Covina CA chapter of the JBS plus there are no reports concerning what information such an "informant" was providing?

For me, research is taking what we know and learning more, taking the research FURTHER - not winning an internet debate.

Research is a process of acquiring verifiable factual information --- not hearsay, gossip, rumor, exaggerations, half-truths, innuendos, insinuations, speculations, or outright falsehoods.

Also, with respect to this comment by you:

"This is also the process you used to convict Harry as xxxx even being unfamiliar with his released files and first hand story."

Although I did not call Harry a xxxx, I will now say this about YOU: You are a xxxx!

First, I did not accuse Harry of being a xxxx.

Ernie wrote in the first post : I acquired numerous FBI files on actual informants it authorized to infiltrate both legitimate and subversive organizations -- and I am, therefore, intimately familiar with the type of data contained in such files -- it is 100% certain that Harry Dean is misrepresenting his "FBI" association in order to inflate his credentials.

Furthermore, Harry Dean is on record stating that former FBI Special Agents Dan Smoot and W. Cleon Skousen were "members" of the Birch Society. But that is a total falsehood. Neither Smoot or Skousen joined the JBS. They did, however, support the JBS and both spoke at JBS functions or wrote for JBS publications.

BK: So Harry is not a xxxx but he is misrepresenting his FBI association in order to inflate his credentials - his credentials as what? An FBI informant? A covert operator? Not a xxxx but misrepresenting and inflating credentials?

Bill, as I have tried to explain -- MANY people provided unsolicited information to the FBI (or military intelligence agencies).

Suppose, for example, sometime during the 1960's that you sent a letter to your local FBI field office or you placed a phone call to that office or you showed up in person to report some information or some suspicion you had.

Does the fact that you contacted the FBI on your own entitle you to claim that you were an "FBI informant"?

What if you subsequently gave speeches or wrote articles claiming that you were an "FBI informant" or you insinuated that you had some sort of "connection" with the FBI or other agencies?

This is NOT a hypothetical scenario. MANY people have done this! I previously provided an example of a JBS member and paid speaker under the auspices of the JBS Speakers Bureau (David Gumaer) who did exactly that because it helped him convince audiences that he was an "expert" on internal security-related matters -- when, in reality, he was not.

Similarly, there are former FBI SPECIAL AGENTS (such as W. Cleon Skousen) who, after their retirement from the FBI, sought to use their FBI credentials as compelling evidence of their supposed expertise in discussing communism and subversion and internal security-related matters. Skousen also was a paid speaker under the auspices of the JBS Speakers Bureau as well as a "faculty member" for Fred Schwarz's "anti-communism schools" held around the country.

HOWEVER, if (for example) you review Skousen's FBI personnel file -- it turns out that almost his entire FBI career was comprised of ADMINISTRATIVE assignments -- not investigative assignments.

Furthermore, Skousen never even worked in the FBI Division which produced their actual experts on the communist movement (Domestic Intelligence Division). Beyond that, both Skousen and his admirers described Skousen as a "top aide" to J. Edgar Hoover---again conveying the impression that he had some sort of special access to confidential secret data about internal security matters. But that, too, is a falsehood. In fact, Skousen's name does not even appear on FBI internal route slips which were used to circulate info to top officials of the Bureau concerning internal security-related matters.

So my question for you is this: WHY DO YOU THINK THESE GUYS FABRICATED OR GROSSLY EXAGGERATED THEIR CREDENTIALS?

Second, I am familiar with what Harry has posted in Education Forum.

BK: But you still haven't read his manuscript or the hundred or so official government documents that have been released under the JFK Act that document Harry Dean's associations with the FPCC and JBS and friendship with other members of both organizations?

So WHAT INFORMATION that is germane to our discussion am I missing?? Please be specific.

Plus--I think you continue to miss my larger point.

If Harry was NOT asked by the FBI to "infiltrate" the JBS --and--

If there is no evidence of any kind whatsoever that the FBI was interested in securing informants within the JBS --and--

If there is no information about the JBS which the FBI was looking for that they could only acquire by using informants -- then WHY should I care about whatever Harry has written?

Third, I am familiar with every FBI file on the JBS.

BK: Yea, how bout this one:

October 1 1963: Ernesto Castellanos, Cuban exile who took part in Bay of Pigs invasion, is secretly tape-recorded at John Birch Society meeting in Dallas saying "We're waiting for Kennedy the 22nd. We're going to see him in one way or the other. We're going to give him the works when he gets in Dallas."

Which FBI file are you alleging that report exists in?

http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/JFKtimeline.html

Fourth, I am familiar with DOZENS of FBI informant files.

BK: Then you should be familiar with the one thousand pages of COINTELPRO documents stolen from the Media, Pa. FBI office in 1970. Do you have a complete copy of these documents? The COINTELPRO program began in 1956 and targeted the Socialist Workers Party - the same group that puts out the MILITANT magazine that the accused assassin is holding in the backyard photo, along with the rifle said to have been used to kill the President and the pistol said to have been used to kill DPD officer JD Tippit. The COINTELPRO docs and the infiltration of the SWP and other such groups like FPCC and CNVA, whose WIN magazine published the COINTELPRO docs, are all relevant to what happened at Dealey Plaza, especially if Oswald had anything to do with the assassination.

What does any of that have to do with Harry Dean or his claims about his purported relationship with the FBI?

In the complete absence of any supporting information from Harry, and in the absence of any corroborating data about Harry within FBI files pertaining to the JBS --- there obviously is no factual basis for believing what Harry has written in this forum. [incidentally, has Harry ever stated whether or not he used the name Harry Dean while he allegedly belonged to the JBS -- or was he a JBS member under a different name?]

BK: You conclude what you want to believe, but In the absense of any corroborating data about Harry, I conclude that he wasn't an FBI informant but worked for another domestic, anti-Communist intelligence agency/network, probably the same one Oswald was operating with.

BK: Hey, good question as to alias. Why not ask Harry? I believe Harry, and I think you're conclusion that Harry is totally discredited is an attempt to defray attention from what he has been trying to tell us - there's more to this John Birch Socity business at Dealy Plaza than we have been led to believe.

Of course! All conspiracy theories are based upon that premise..

Furthermore, one has to ask an obvious question:

What specific information about the JBS did the FBI want so bad circa September 1963 --- which is when Harry claims that he began informing on the JBS --- that the Bureau decided it needed an "informant" (such as Harry) to obtain it?

BK: I don't believe that Harry was infiltrating the JBS for FBI, as you have convinced me otherwise, mainly because they already controlled the whole operation from the top down, just as they also controlled the opposition to the JBS, the World Federalists, from the top down. You are right, they didn't need informants.

OK--so apply my same question to whatever agency YOU think Harry worked for. What information about the JBS did they want circa September 1963 -- which was NOT obtainable except via "informants" who "infiltrated" the JBS?

And, as a corollary question---why is there no reference of any kind whatsoever in either the Birch Society FBI HQ file (62-104401) or the Los Angeles field office file (100-59001) to that information they sought and obtained from informant(s)?

BK: Because Harry was actually working undercover for another agency and network.

And that other "agency and network" did not share ANY of their information with the FBI?

....

Edited July 2, 2010 by Ernie Lazar

[Ernie Lazar]

Greg: I let this comment by you in message #107 pass without appropriate comment:

"On that note, see the attached documument which shows a JBS member helping the FBI out in a COINTELPRO operation against the New Left."

(1) First, the document you scanned refers to a person who "reportedly" was a "supporter" of the JBS. You then changed "supporter" to "JBS member" in your message to me. [incidentally, we have no way of knowing the quality of the information characterized as "reportedly" in the memo you scanned -- which you inflated into a definite conclusion and which you further inflated from supporter to member.]

(2) Second, the field office was requesting permission from HQ to use this person to distribute some leaflets. But you don't tell us what reply was sent by HQ.

(3) Third, you declare from your data fragments that this "shows a JBS member helping the FBI out in a COINTELPRO operation against the New Left". But what this actually "shows" is how you take two bits of information and combine them with your assumptions to produce a result.

Let me give you a better example from an actual COINTELPRO file:

In December 1964, SAC Little Rock contacted HQ to request permission to send a letter to JBS HQ as though it was coming from someone who was interested in joining the JBS in Pine Bluff, Arkansas but this fictitious person expressed concern about the type of "riffraff that is leading your chapter in Pine Bluff…The leader of the chapter in Pine Bluff, Billy R. Von Tungelin, 2512 North Lane, is one of the most avid KKK members in Pine Bluff. Bill is more interested in the KKK and using the JBS for the benefit of the KKK. As a result, most of the men in the Pine Bluff chapter of the JBS are KKK members and the KKK members completely operate the JBS chapter.” See HQ file 157-9-25, serial #17, 12/18/64

SAC Little Rock received permission from HQ to send the letter which was intended to use the JBS to dissolve one of its chapters which actually was a KKK-front.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Ernie Lazar

[John Dolva]

[Michael Hogan]

One of your more intelligible posts.