The Curious Case Of Gary Mack: A Question

[Josiah Thompson]

Once again: who said Dave Perry is a good guy?

KK

I said Dave Perry is a good guy and here's why.

James Fetzer, Ph.D. published a book about the Zapruder film and included a heavily technical paper by John Costella, Ph.D. It was filled with very ponderous, Ph.D. like arguments that turned out to be just wrong.. as Craig Lamson has pointed out on this forum. The highpoint of hilarity was reached when Jack White and John Costella, Ph.D. visit Dealey Plaza and learn of a new plot originating with a shadowy intelligence agency. You see the conversations of Jack White, John Costella, Ph.D. are of such national importance that this intelligence agency has scattered listening devices all over Dealey Plaza to pick up their conversations as they strolled this sacred spot. (Never mind that the purported listening devices would most likely pick up tourist conversations like the following: "Mildred, is that the pedestal where the President was standing when he was shot?" "No, Wayne, that couldn't be because four assassins were in cars back there behind the pedestal.") So John Costella, Ph.D. screws on his scientific cap and comes up deadpan with the argument that the positions of the various listening devices is dictated by some arcane principle of acoustics. In addition, he and Fetzer published photos of the purported listening devices in Dealey Plaza. Costella also claimed that some mysterious intelligence agency had also messed with his shirts, screwed up some film in his camera and planted a substituted teacher for him back in Australia.

This seemed to me to be a red hot exhibit of how science can be turned into wingnut nonsense of the first order. I got in touch with Dave Perry and asked him to see what he could find out. Dave attacked the problem as the insurance adjuster/investigator in him dictated. Dealey Plaza is run by the Dallas Department of Parks and Recreations. He went there and was given a full run-down on the supposed listenting devices. They were rain sensors as could be seen from the labels on the devices published by Fetzer and Costella (both Ph.Ds). Why have rain sensors in Dealey Plaza? Well, it seems Texas was under drought conditions and the good citizens of Dallas would not have been happy to find the sprinklers pouring water on the grass of Dealey Plaza during a rain storm. The placement of the rain sensors was not dictated by acoustic principles but by the zones in which the sprinklers were placed.

So that's one reason that I think Dave Perry is a good guy. Another is that he doesn't take himself or anyone else that seriously. Why the necessity to make everything a war between tribes? Why must one always be angry before one sits down to type anything? Why must everyone else be wrong if one is right? Why is it always necessary to find someone to hate? The war against Gary Mack and the 6th Floor Museum is just silly.

JT

[Guest Robert Morrow]

Josiah Thompson, why don't you ask Gary Mack why he and management at the Sixth Floor Museum keep trying to kick American patriot, hero and truth teller Robert Groden and other JFK researcher/vendors off the Grassy Knoll? The Dallas police keep saying that the totalitarians at the Sixth Floor Museum are the ones harassing Robert Groden and anyone else with a view different from the fantasy they push up there.

And if Dave Perry is such a great insurance adjuster/detective/sleuth how come he can't figure out a conspiracy slaughtered John Kennedy and that the LBJ-appointed Allen Dulles Commission was a fraud? Debunking Fetzer? How about debunking LBJ, Dulles, Hoover and the HSCA? Just wondering ...

Gary Mack and The Sixth Floor Museum constantly push the Big Lie. That is why there is so much HOSTILITY towards them. They are liars. Have you taken the tour of the Sixth Floor Museum recently? I have 3 times in the past year. All I see is 1960's LBJ/CIA/FBI/Allen Dulles Commission lies and propaganda. Nothing really helpful on WHO and WHY John Kennedy was murdered. It is a damage control operation up there for the murderers of John Kennedy (and Lee Harvey Oswald ...)

Edited September 1, 2010 by Kathy Beckett
The word liar is banned from the Forum--see rules.

[Otto B Cornejo]

Otto,

I've had my differences with Gary but I don't dislike the guy and he has often sent me helpful messages - whether I asked him to or not. I'm not so sure there really is a contradiction between his private and public statements. As I understand it, Gary believes Oswald fired the shots that killed Kennedy and a second unknown grassy knoll gunman fired a shot that missed. This is what I've gathered from both his public and private statements.

Martin -

Thanks for your input. I should say right off that my intention in starting this thread was not to vilify Gary or defend him. I wanted to get to the bottom of his position regarding the assassination of JFK because I think Gary is an important figure in the history of research regarding the murder of JFK. And he is involved with the Sixth Floor Museum, which is important. Information posted in this thread has suggested, among other things, that Gary made comments on broadcast television that basically echoed what the WC has said about the case. I haven't seen these documentaries, so I will reserve final judgement. Gary has written me three times and his stance, as I understand it, is that he is compelled only to back what are the facts in the case and not what it is theory, even if its a theory he personally believes in. This would mean that when he addresses the public he must represent what can be scientifically proved, or, I imagine, what the WC says. He says that something like Badgeman is not introduced as fact because we don't know if it is or not.

This is what I understand from what he has told me.

Of course there are a lot of questions one can come up with in the wake of such comments, like who decides what is fact and what is not? and if those people are corrupt or involved in a cover up, the facts that they represent are bogus or misrepresented.

Hence the struggle of conspiracy research to make itself heard.

Regardless of what I conclude regarding Gary's stance it will not be personal with me, as it is for some. I have not invested my time and passion in a manner that makes these things take on a very serious tone. Maybe it should and maybe it will for me one day. But I will say this, after reading Dr. Thompson's comments above

Josiah said: The war against Gary Mack and the 6th Floor Museum is just silly.

On one hand it does seem silly to get upset and angry to a degree that we lash out and those we don't agree with. But on the other hand we are dealing with an event that changed the course of history and affected lives around the globe, for the worse. And the facts of this event, the truth, as some believe, have been covered up, by people who are still in power. In that light it seems we can never be passionate enough in our search for the truth.

Otto.

[Ron Ecker]

As I understand it, Gary believes Oswald fired the shots that killed Kennedy and a second unknown grassy knoll gunman fired a shot that missed.

That's not my understanding. He has acknowledged the large hole in the back of the head. That means, of course, a frontal shot. You have described the conclusion of the HSCA. Gary believes the HSCA acoustic evidence, but I don't think he would subscribe to the HSCA's conclusion, since according to the HSCA (by its suppression of witness statements and by lying) there was no large hole in the back of the head.

[John Dolva]

afa JFK's head goes, where was front?

[Jack White]

Once again: who said Dave Perry is a good guy?

KK

I said Dave Perry is a good guy and here's why.

James Fetzer, Ph.D. published a book about the Zapruder film and included a heavily technical paper by John Costella, Ph.D. It was filled with very ponderous, Ph.D. like arguments that turned out to be just wrong.. as Craig Lamson has pointed out on this forum. The highpoint of hilarity was reached when Jack White and John Costella, Ph.D. visit Dealey Plaza and learn of a new plot originating with a shadowy intelligence agency. You see the conversations of Jack White, John Costella, Ph.D. are of such national importance that this intelligence agency has scattered listening devices all over Dealey Plaza to pick up their conversations as they strolled this sacred spot. (Never mind that the purported listening devices would most likely pick up tourist conversations like the following: "Mildred, is that the pedestal where the President was standing when he was shot?" "No, Wayne, that couldn't be because four assassins were in cars back there behind the pedestal.") So John Costella, Ph.D. screws on his scientific cap and comes up deadpan with the argument that the positions of the various listening devices is dictated by some arcane principle of acoustics. In addition, he and Fetzer published photos of the purported listening devices in Dealey Plaza. Costella also claimed that some mysterious intelligence agency had also messed with his shirts, screwed up some film in his camera and planted a substituted teacher for him back in Australia.

This seemed to me to be a red hot exhibit of how science can be turned into wingnut nonsense of the first order. I got in touch with Dave Perry and asked him to see what he could find out. Dave attacked the problem as the insurance adjuster/investigator in him dictated. Dealey Plaza is run by the Dallas Department of Parks and Recreations. He went there and was given a full run-down on the supposed listenting devices. They were rain sensors as could be seen from the labels on the devices published by Fetzer and Costella (both Ph.Ds). Why have rain sensors in Dealey Plaza? Well, it seems Texas was under drought conditions and the good citizens of Dallas would not have been happy to find the sprinklers pouring water on the grass of Dealey Plaza during a rain storm. The placement of the rain sensors was not dictated by acoustic principles but by the zones in which the sprinklers were placed.

So that's one reason that I think Dave Perry is a good guy. Another is that he doesn't take himself or anyone else that seriously. Why the necessity to make everything a war between tribes? Why must one always be angry before one sits down to type anything? Why must everyone else be wrong if one is right? Why is it always necessary to find someone to hate? The war against Gary Mack and the 6th Floor Museum is just silly.

JT

Coincidentally, after Costella publicized the "rain sensors", THEY WERE REMOVED from the Plaza.

They may have been rain sensors. They may have had recording devices. Nobody knows for sure.

Jack

Edited September 1, 2010 by Jack White

[Josiah Thompson]

Regardless of what I conclude regarding Gary's stance it will not be personal with me, as it is for some. I have not invested my time and passion in a manner that makes these things take on a very serious tone. Maybe it should and maybe it will for me one day. But I will say this, after reading Dr. Thompson's comments above

Josiah said: The war against Gary Mack and the 6th Floor Museum is just silly.

On one hand it does seem silly to get upset and angry to a degree that we lash out and those we don't agree with. But on the other hand we are dealing with an event that changed the course of history and affected lives around the globe, for the worse. And the facts of this event, the truth, as some believe, have been covered up, by people who are still in power. In that light it seems we can never be passionate enough in our search for the truth.

Otto.

The war against the 6th Floor Museum is silly. The Museum is a Dallas institution and as such is run by a board of Dallas citizens. As a museum, it sees its task as making available to visitors to the Museum a good factual presentation of the confirmed facts surrounding the assassination while placing the event in mid-20th Century history. As far as I know, it tries to stay away from taking a position with respect to any of the many controversies and opinions that swirl around the event. You can declare war on the Museum but your declaration has no impact. That's why it's silly. As a Dallas civic museum it will continue to do what it's doing independently of what you say about it. To expect a city museum to take controversial stands with respect to an event that happened in the city is illogical. It is what it is and Gary Mack is not responsible for that fact.

Once again, I fail to see why some need to vent their spleen at Gary Mack. He has helped innumerable people with their research independent of what tribe they come from. That's his job and he does it really well.

JT

[Otto B Cornejo]

The war against the 6th Floor Museum is silly. The Museum is a Dallas institution and as such is run by a board of Dallas citizens. As a museum, it sees its task as making available to visitors to the Museum a good factual presentation of the confirmed facts surrounding the assassination while placing the event in mid-20th Century history. As far as I know, it tries to stay away from taking a position with respect to any of the many controversies and opinions that swirl around the event. You can declare war on the Museum but your declaration has no impact. That's why it's silly. As a Dallas civic museum it will continue to do what it's doing independently of what you say about it. To expect a city museum to take controversial stands with respect to an event that happened in the city is illogical. It is what it is and Gary Mack is not responsible for that fact.

Once again, I fail to see why some need to vent their spleen at Gary Mack. He has helped innumerable people with their research independent of what tribe they come from. That's his job and he does it really well.

JT

Josiah,

While I don't condone direct personal attacks against anyone, if nothing else they don't serve to make an argument, I fail to see why one shouldn't take on the Sixth Floor Museum's stance on the assassination. Let's forget about the word "war", it's divisive and implies, perhaps, physical harm. Instead I ask you why it is illogical to challenge an institution which many people feel is misrepresenting what they believe to be the truth about what happened on the day JFK was killed? And we are not just talking about a few CT'ers. Statistics show that many people in this country believe that there was a conspiracy and subsequent cover up in the murder of JFK.

When you say:

As a museum, it sees its task as making available to visitors to the Museum a good factual presentation of the confirmed facts surrounding the assassination

Are we not allowed as citizens of this country to ask who said these facts were good and how they came about? Shouldn't we investigate the investigators when there is reason to believe that there was foul play or ineptitude? In fact isn't it our patriotic duty speak out when we believe that facts have been mishandled and are being misrepresented, especially when it involves the killing of our country's leaders?

The Sixth Floor Museum is not a museum showing the history of tin foil. It is a representation of an event that has haunted this country's psyche since that tragic day. I can't think of a better target for people to question, in hopes that future generations will know we got it right.

Otto

Edited September 1, 2010 by Otto B Cornejo

[Ron Ecker]

I asked Gary, he confirmed my summary was correct. If there was a grassy knoll gunman, he thinks he missed.

Fair enough. He brought up the large hole in the back of the head when he told me not to put him in with the LN crowd. So who knows what he really thinks.

[Michael Hogan]

The war against the 6th Floor Museum is silly. The Museum is a Dallas institution and as such is run by a board of Dallas citizens. As a museum, it sees its task as making available to visitors to the Museum a good factual presentation of the confirmed facts surrounding the assassination while placing the event in mid-20th Century history. As far as I know, it tries to stay away from taking a position with respect to any of the many controversies and opinions that swirl around the event. You can declare war on the Museum but your declaration has no impact. That's why it's silly. As a Dallas civic museum it will continue to do what it's doing independently of what you say about it. To expect a city museum to take controversial stands with respect to an event that happened in the city is illogical. It is what it is and Gary Mack is not responsible for that fact.

Once again, I fail to see why some need to vent their spleen at Gary Mack. He has helped innumerable people with their research independent of what tribe they come from. That's his job and he does it really well.

JT

Many people would not take major issue with the above statement. On this thread Jim DiEugenio and Pat Speer

have made it clear that they take issue with the television shows Gary Mack was involved with and appeared in.

I read through the various postings on this thread and then ask myself, "What asylum have I just wandered through?'

You said you read through the various postings -- did you read the complaints against Inside the Target Car and

The Ruby Connection made by Jim and Pat? Do they have a right to criticize Gary for his role in those shows?

Incidentally, if anyone is in Dallas in early October and wants to ask Gary Mack about conspiracy face to face, here's their chance:

Meet the Museum

Q&A with Curator Gary Mack

October 8, 2010 – 11:30 AM

Gary Mack has been researching the Kennedy assassination since 1975, served as a consultant to the Museum

during the planning stages in the early 1980s and joined the museum staff in 1994.

Bring your questions—and theories—to this informal Q&A session. Free with paid admission to the museum.

http://www.jfk.org/go/events

[Ron Ecker]

From Gary Mack today:

I only know what the evidence tells me. The hard evidence – x-rays and photos – show that if there was a grassy knoll gunman, he missed.

I don’t know there was a second gunman, nor do I know that he missed.

Seems pretty simple to me.

My reply:

I only know what the evidence tells me too. There was a conspiracy. Courts have convicted many times on circumstantial evidence, and there is a mountain of it in the JFK case, beyond a reasonable doubt.

The "hard evidence" you cite is tainted, produced under the supervision of the military (a prime suspect in the case) in a sham autopsy after the body was stolen from the state of Texas. Give me a break.

Gary's reply:

Ron, I count at least five theories on your part. And the body wasn’t stolen. Burkley had permission from Henry Wade. They were on the phone working it out when the SS took it out of Parkland.

You may be convinced, but history isn’t…..and the Museum only does history.

I've questioned him on Burkley talking to Wade. According to Manchester, it was Judge Ward who called Wade. But no matter who it was, the body during that conversation was already on its way out the door. (Exactly which door may never be known.) The SS had no way of knowing what Wade had to say and was simply intent on taking the body, which they did.

[Dean Hagerman]

1. Howard Brennan's alleged description of height and weight for LHO.

2. Helen Markham talking to TIppit for 20 minutes after he was dead.

3. Marina Oswald telling the Secret Service her husband never had a rifle with a scope.

4. How Frazier got CE 399 before Todd gave it to him, and how come it changed form and shape on the way?

5. How CE 543 got in the condition it is?

6. What is the evidence for LHO purchasing the MC ammo? ( And why he tried to pass off that phony index card as proof he did?)

7. How the Walker bullet also changed shape and form in flight.

8. What is the evidence LHO ever picked up the rifle?

9. Why there is no evidence that LHO ever picked up the revolver at REA?

10. Who erased Poe's initials from the TIppit shells? (He could ask his pals on the DPD about that one.)

I think the above is very fair in return for what he did at the Jim Marrs classes. We will even give him a lifeline to his pal Perry.

Well all Gary "Scary" Mack has to do is make a post to reply to your questions Jim

Since he is a member (A fake one until he makes his first post)he can post on this forum, of course he is to scared to do that

The way that Gary and Dave treated Jim Marrs really gets to me, Jim Marrs is head and shoulders above Gary Mack in every aspect of knowledge on the assassination

Edited September 1, 2010 by Dean Hagerman

[Josiah Thompson]

You said you read through the various postings -- did you read the complaints against Inside the Target Car and

The Ruby Connection made by Jim and Pat? Do they have a right to criticize Gary for his role in those shows?

You ask me a fair question. There are things in both TV shows I agree with and things I disagree with. However, to answer your question I would end up discussing things I have no interest in discussing. I intended only to say that the vitriol spewed on Gary Mack and Dave Perry is unjustified. I fail to understand why in historical research it is important to have someone to dump on. The shrillness of the attacks seems to me to reveal some depth of anger I don't understand. As a museum, the 6th Floor Museum does not exist in a vacuum. It is a city institution and has to live in the opinion atmosphere of that city. Given that fact, to expect the Museum to do otherwise is simply a mistake.

JT

[David Von Pein]

As a museum, the 6th Floor Museum does not exist in a vacuum. It is a city institution and has to live in the opinion atmosphere of that city.

IMO, the above statement made by Josiah Thompson is a very odd one.

While I suppose Josiah's comment is LITERALLY true, I don't see why the Museum's content and exhibits would necessarily have to be dictated by "the opinion atmosphere" of Dallas, Texas.

For one thing, a large number of visitors to Gary Mack's Sixth Floor Museum come from outside the city of Dallas each year. I'm not sure of what the percentages are, but I would imagine that well over 60% of the visitors to the Museum each year are from outside of Dallas. And probably more. It only stands to reason that most of the Museum's visitors are likely tourists from out of town.

Also: Is Josiah Thompson actually suggesting that the vast majority of Dallas citizens endorse the "lone assassin" scenario in the JFK case? I'd beg to differ. I don't know the exact figures on that stat either, but I'd be willing to bet that Dallas is about the same as most other U.S. cities -- which means that about 75% of the Dallas population thinks there was a conspiracy to kill President Kennedy.

Anyway, I'm pretty certain that Gary Mack must be doing a lot of things right at the Sixth Floor Museum At Dealey Plaza, and that's because the conspiracists seem to hate his guts (and his Museum) with a passion. Therefore, Gary's GOT to be doing something right.

Edited September 2, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

I think what Tink is referring to is not the ordinary lunch pail guy and his wife.

I think he is referring to the heavy hitters who put the museum together and sit on its board of directors.

They could fire Gary if they wanted to.

And he does not want to be out on the grass with Groden. He likes getting his ticket punched inside and making that extra money doing those Discovery Channel propaganda pieces.

~sigh~

Edited September 2, 2010 by David Von Pein