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Does Hurt point to McCloy


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First: We know that the Raleigh Call was not reported in the Warren Commission Report but it is generally considered to be an accepted fact that the call was made by Lee Harvey Oswald

Second: John B. Hurt, at the time of the assassination of John F. Kennedy, had recently retired from the NSA (after over 30 years of service in the field of intelligence) and seems to have been vacationing in France.

Third: During WWII intelligence information translated by John B. Hurt (with hand written notes included) were sent directly to John J. McCloy.

Fourth: John B. Hurt's Cold War espionage work is still classified (the only person from William Friedmaan's original team of cryptologists whose work is still classified).

Fifth: Frank Rowlett and Meridith Gardner, two people closely associated with John B. Hurt, were assigned to investigate Lee Harvey Oswald for potential intelligence connections.

Sixth: By the mid 1930's Edwin Walker whad become associated with Friedman's group of cryptologists.

Seventh: John B. Hurt was instrumental in translating a decrypted message that led to Operation Stella Polaris (the Venona Project) and the work on breaking Soviet codes

Eighth: Frank Rowlett and Meridith Gardner would be in charge of the Venona Project and the breaking of Soviet codes

Ninth: Edwin Walker MAY (his position in Norway at the time suggests that he would have had at least a supervisory role)have been the man who dispatched the ship to pick up the Finnish Cryptologist for Operation Stella Polaris.

Tenth: Stella Polaris seems to have been a Secret Intelligence Operation orchestrated, in part, by Richard Helms, while stationed in Stockholm, and approved by a series of people that leads up to John J. McCloy and includes Whitney Shepardson and Calvin Bryce Hoover (who at the time of the assassination of John F. Kennedy was in Raleigh, North Carolina).

Thoughts

Jim Root

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Guest Tom Scully

Jim, a few things.... I read a post in the last day or two, on another thread on this forum authored by you or by Robert Howard. My impression is that John B. Hurt and Col. William Friedman and his wife, Elizebeth Smith Friedman were like family.:

From this William Friedman collection. (it's a file of 657 .pdf pages, for anyone inclined to click on this link.)

http://www.marshallfoundation.org/library/documents/FriedmanCollectionGuide.pdf

Item 936

Hurt, John B., Rationale of the Japanese Written Language, (Subtitle: The Japanese and their Classical Languages). Mimeographed pamphlet of 75 pp., probable date 1946.

A historical approach to the study of the development of the Japanese and their speech from remote times. Autographed by the author: ―To my friend who has been with me longest through unutterable circumstances.‖ This associate, Mr. Hurt, was deceased in 1966.

The post I read on the other thread referred to John B. Hurt's negative opinion of Joseph P. Kennedy. Could

this opinion have been influenced by Elizebeth's great effort to apprehend prohibition era bootlegger kingpins?

I don't think it even requires Elizebeth to have direct knowledge of involvement by Joseph Kennedy in specific

bootlegging operations for the Friedman's and John Hurt to resent Kennedy based on suspicions at the time about

how he made his fortune.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizebeth_Friedman#Government_service

John B. Hurt's reference above to William Friedman about "unutterable circumstances" influences me to suspect that Friedman, his wife, and John B. Hurt forged a bond of necessity over the years. Their top secret work was their lives and who could they share their lives with, outside of work, but with each other?

These were three briliant people, the two Friedmans and John B. Hurt. I am wondering if Hurt and McCloy could be deeply involved in a plot against JFK without either of them being concerned about William or Elizebeth Friedman noticing. Even if William Friedman was supporting Hurt and McCloy, neither man could count on what Friedman had, or had not passed along over the years to his wife, especially concerning Edwin Walker.

Aside from Edwin Walker's visibility and his strange, public behavior, I could accept that your theory, Jim, is about the participation of the parties you named, in a series of activities vital to carrying out a complex plot in a manner subtle enough that even some of the more prominent players might not be aware of the ultimate goal.

We also know Elizebeth had a passion for the study of the origins of the works of

Shakespeare. I picked this out of the Friedman items referenced in the file linked in the quote box above.:

Item 929

Anonymous, A Brief Account, The Folger Shakespeare Memorial Library, Published for the Trustees of Amherst College, n.d. 20 pp.

An interesting brochure about the repository of the greatest collection of Shakespeare First Folios (79 copies) in the world, as well as thousands of other books of the Elizabethan period. Gift of the Folger Library. Of the 238 first folios known to exist, the Folger has 79. Only 2 are in the original binding.

I recently posted about George Plimpton's father Francis Plimpton's lawfirm; about

Francis's law partner Eli Whitney Debevoise being the counsel to the High Commissioner of Germany and the Assistant HICOG during the same period McCloy was HICOG. I also posted that McCloy, in his capacity as Chariman of the Board of Trustees at Amherst College, had appointed Francis's brother as Amherst president.

I posted that the brother of John and David Lindsey, twins who were two of the ushers at the 1946 wedding of Nancy Bush, (William B. Macomber, Jr., was the best man, and later the best man of Thomas Devine.) George N Lindsey was a career partner at the Plimpton, Debevoise lawfirm and became the managing partner.

This is why the above information might be relevant.:

http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&q=trustees+shakespeare+library+washington%2C+dc+francis+plimpton+john+mccloy&btnG=Search+Books

Report: Volumes 1933-1934

1933 -

The Trustees of Amherst College and of The Folger Shakespeare Library Chairman of the Board: Honorary Chairman of the ... Jr. Trustees Emeriti: J. Seelye Bixler Walter Gellhorn Arthur Lee Kinsolving John J. McCloy Francis TP Plimpton ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=00kXAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR22&dq=trustees+shakespeare+library+washington,+dc+francis+plimpton+john+mccloy&hl=en&ei=JR-HTNvaM4e09gTF2-ziDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

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Jim, A 1997 Book by Maria Emilia de Paz Salinas, used two articles? documents John B Hurt wrote

in a history of Mexico and The United State's..It is on google books.....

I don't know if she is citing documents that you already have.

It is called "Strategy, Security and Spies: Mexico and the US as Allies in World War II.

BTW The material is fascinating it gives a look at the whole military/interaction between the Mexican Government and the US Military, and explains

the cryptological link regarding pre Pearl Harbor codebreaking......And if your interested in Mexico before the JFK Assassination era, it is not exactly dull reading....

Unfortunately, circa 1963 is the ultimate area of interest, and of course, that's the rub re the Hurt/Oswald connection.

However, one cannot understand the possibilities in that area without a broad picture of just who we are dealing with regarding those possibilities....

To further supplement that area it might be helpful to understand one key fact.

In World War II, while OP-20-G aka ONI, the Army Signal Corp, later the Signal Intelligence Service and specifically Bletchley Park, Hut 3 Capt. William Bundy was there,

and Kullback, Sinkov and Friedman were all working together, General MacArthur and Willoughby had their own crypto section independent of the aforementioned

"codebreakers." That is important and of course, the postwar Japanese occupation was MacArthur's turf, someone important left MacArthur's staff to go solo.....

Do you remember who it was?

At any rate the information below is also significant, especially when you consider whom, Edward P Morgan later went on to work with.....

Below Edward P. Morgan and his involvement in the Pearl Harbor controversy

No Title

http://www.maryferre...do?docId=136735

It is safe to say that had Mr Morgan's recommendations been followed upon by the Army and Navy departments prior to Pearl Harbor,

the greatest naval disaster in the history of the country would never have occurred and Japan's striking force would probably have been

ambushed en route to Pearl Harbor rather than completing a successful surprise attack.

NO TITLE, SUBJECTS: EPM, CONFIDENTIAL RPT, PEARL HARBOR DISASTER

http://www.maryferre...262&relPageId=2

Robert: A letter from J Edgar Hoover to Edward P Morgan, dated Sept. 25, 1946 thanking him for the "very kind expressions which you placed

in my copy of, "the confidential report on the attack on Pearl Harbor." He goes on to say that "I take pride in the outstanding ability displayed by one of my

associates in the preparation of this report."

It might do well to recall that one of LBJ's attorneys, stated, according to his son that his father

J Waddy Bullion "knew all about MAGIC."

Also although it is just a possibility, Hoover's "associate"

may possibly have been......Morris and or Jack Childs, [but it may have been someone else, I am probably jumping the gun]

See Bobby and J Edgar

For 27 years, Morris Childs, code name "Agent 58" made 57 clandestine missions into the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, China and Cuba.

Through first-hand accounts, "Operation Solo" tells the story of the conflicts within the FBI and American intelligence about the operation,

and how the FBI, through extraordinary measures, managed to keep that operation hidden from everyone, including the CIA.

Operation Solo: The FBI's Man in the Kremlin

By John Barron

Edition: illustrated

Published by Regnery Publishing, 1997

ISBN 0895264293, 9780895264299

368 pages

See

http://books.google....2sXGvTEZqkC&dq=

Robert......There is something about this book I am suspicious of, example there is a passage in the book where they are talking to Castro,

and they quote Castro as saying "Oswald was involved," Castro said. "Our people in Mexico gave us the details in a full report of how he

acted when he came to our Embassy. He stormed into the Embassy, demanded a visa, and when it was refused him, he headed out saying

"I'm going to kill Kennedy for this"....page 113......I don't trust the quote, or should I say the writer allegedly quoting Castro...

FEDORA, in reality was Victor Lesiovsky who according to Burton Hersh was an FBI informant...see Bobby and J Edgar page 441

Also See

page 204 Wedge: from Pearl Harbor to 9/11 : how the secret war between the FBI and.....Mark Riebling

Certainly a maze to wade through...Robert

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Jim, a few things.... I read a post in the last day or two, on another thread on this forum authored by you or by Robert Howard. My impression is that John B. Hurt and Col. William Friedman and his wife, Elizebeth Smith Friedman were like family.:

From this William Friedman collection. (it's a file of 657 .pdf pages, for anyone inclined to click on this link.)

http://www.marshallfoundation.org/library/documents/FriedmanCollectionGuide.pdf

Item 936

Hurt, John B., Rationale of the Japanese Written Language, (Subtitle: The Japanese and their Classical Languages). Mimeographed pamphlet of 75 pp., probable date 1946.

A historical approach to the study of the development of the Japanese and their speech from remote times. Autographed by the author: ―To my friend who has been with me longest through unutterable circumstances.‖ This associate, Mr. Hurt, was deceased in 1966.

The post I read on the other thread referred to John B. Hurt's negative opinion of Joseph P. Kennedy. Could

this opinion have been influenced by Elizebeth's great effort to apprehend prohibition era bootlegger kingpins?

I don't think it even requires Elizebeth to have direct knowledge of involvement by Joseph Kennedy in specific

bootlegging operations for the Friedman's and John Hurt to resent Kennedy based on suspicions at the time about

how he made his fortune.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizebeth_Friedman#Government_service

John B. Hurt's reference above to William Friedman about "unutterable circumstances" influences me to suspect that Friedman, his wife, and John B. Hurt forged a bond of necessity over the years. Their top secret work was their lives and who could they share their lives with, outside of work, but with each other?

Tom: Both Friedman and Hurt suffered mental breakdowns while doing their high pressure jobs. Imagine working 16 hour days seven days a week at a job were literally 1000's of lives were on the line on a daily basis. The phrase "unuterable circumstances" was most likely deeply felt by both.

JR

These were three briliant people, the two Friedmans and John B. Hurt. I am wondering if Hurt and McCloy could be deeply involved in a plot against JFK without either of them being concerned about William or Elizebeth Friedman noticing. Even if William Friedman was supporting Hurt and McCloy, neither man could count on what Friedman had, or had not passed along over the years to his wife, especially concerning Edwin Walker.

I do not believe that Hurt was in any way involved in the plot to kill Kennedy. Rather it is my belief that the mere mention of his name by the accused assassin of Kennedy would send cold shivers up the backs of any person in the intelligence community that knew who John B. Hurt was. I believe that an immediate reaction would be a desire to silence Oswald as quickly as possible. But this line of thought would require that the actual conspirators would have to have knowledge of John B. Hurt, the work that he did and the impression it would have on the intelligence community if the accused assassin of Kennedy uttered his name.

We do know that two associates of Hurt were assigned to the Oswald case, Rowlett and Gardner. We also know that whatever Hurt was working on throughout the cold war is still classifies. It seems to make sense that an accused assassin that may or may not of had knowledge of Hurt would be a danger to US Intelligence. JOhn J. McCloy would have known that piece of information!

JR

Aside from Edwin Walker's visibility and his strange, public behavior, I could accept that your theory, Jim, is about the participation of the parties you named, in a series of activities vital to carrying out a complex plot in a manner subtle enough that even some of the more prominent players might not be aware of the ultimate goal.

Agreed. I do not believe that Walker was involved per se. I do believe that he would have knowledge of exactly who Lee Harvey Oswald was, especially if he had provided information to Oswald as he traveled from London to Helsinki in October of 1959. Walkers immediate reaction following the assassintion (interview with German magazine from a hotel in Sherveport, LA) is, in my opinion consistant with this belief. More importantly the letter from McCloy to Walker, that I uncovered, which was written in June of 1963 coincides exactly with McCloy's break with Kennedy and the Limited Test Ban Treaty and the decision on the Kennedy visit to Dallas the following November. If Walker was the one man who had had personal contact with Oswald and knew who he was and that Oswald was a US Intelligence asset (as Walker himself suggested) then Walker had to be nutralized. What better way than for the major conspirator, McCloy, to plant a letter that, under close inspection, could implicate Walker as a co-conspirator? Easy to believe since Walker was an outspoken critique of Kennedy and the assassination took place in Dallas, Walker's home turf.

JR

We also know Elizebeth had a passion for the study of the origins of the works of

Shakespeare. I picked this out of the Friedman items referenced in the file linked in the quote box above.:

Item 929

Anonymous, A Brief Account, The Folger Shakespeare Memorial Library, Published for the Trustees of Amherst College, n.d. 20 pp.

An interesting brochure about the repository of the greatest collection of Shakespeare First Folios (79 copies) in the world, as well as thousands of other books of the Elizabethan period. Gift of the Folger Library. Of the 238 first folios known to exist, the Folger has 79. Only 2 are in the original binding.

I recently posted about George Plimpton's father Francis Plimpton's lawfirm; about

Francis's law partner Eli Whitney Debevoise being the counsel to the High Commissioner of Germany and the Assistant HICOG during the same period McCloy was HICOG. I also posted that McCloy, in his capacity as Chariman of the Board of Trustees at Amherst College, had appointed Francis's brother as Amherst president.

I posted that the brother of John and David Lindsey, twins who were two of the ushers at the 1946 wedding of Nancy Bush, (William B. Macomber, Jr., was the best man, and later the best man of Thomas Devine.) George N Lindsey was a career partner at the Plimpton, Debevoise lawfirm and became the managing partner.

This is why the above information might be relevant.:

http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&q=trustees+shakespeare+library+washington%2C+dc+francis+plimpton+john+mccloy&btnG=Search+Books

Report: Volumes 1933-1934

1933 -

The Trustees of Amherst College and of The Folger Shakespeare Library Chairman of the Board: Honorary Chairman of the ... Jr. Trustees Emeriti: J. Seelye Bixler Walter Gellhorn Arthur Lee Kinsolving John J. McCloy Francis TP Plimpton ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=00kXAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR22&dq=trustees+shakespeare+library+washington,+dc+francis+plimpton+john+mccloy&hl=en&ei=JR-HTNvaM4e09gTF2-ziDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Tom

Hope the above comments (hopefully they came out in red) help you understanding some of my thoughts on the subject.

Richard Helms, the man who was following the movements of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the assassination, would seem to have a good reason to fear being named as a co-conspirator in the assassination and as such would be very useful in orchestrating a cover up in any areas as needed.....would you agree?

Jim Root

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Robert

Thanks for the info.

You wrote:

"To further supplement that area it might be helpful to understand one key fact.

In World War II, while OP-20-G aka ONI, the Army Signal Corp, later the Signal Intelligence Service and specifically Bletchley Park, Hut 3 Capt. William Bundy was there,

and Kullback, Sinkov and Friedman were all working together, General MacArthur and Willoughby had their own crypto section independent of the aforementioned

"codebreakers." That is important and of course, the postwar Japanese occupation was MacArthur's turf, someone important left MacArthur's staff to go solo.....

Do you remember who it was?"

I do know that as Asst. Secretary of War John J. McCloy was sent to Japan after the War to have a "come to Jesus" meeting with MacArthur who was preceived at the time to be running his own show. If my memory serves me correctly the meeting was held in private and MacArthur exited the meeting looking rather sheepish. Seems McCloy was able to handle MacArthur better than President Truman would be able to at a later date.

More importantly I think you are right on point by directing attention to the multitude of different agencies that were all dealing with crypto intelligence. No one agency had exclusive control over the whole....or did some agency or person? Only recently we have learned of SI (Secret Intelligence) that was implimented during WWII to watch over our own OSS. Originated by McCloy and directied by Shepardson and Grombach we now know that it existed and that its existance was kept from the general public for 60 years.

Is it to much to suggest that, just as the British had "C" who coordinated all the various intelligence agencies in England, that the US would have their own "C"? If John J. McCloy's primary assignment (early in his tenure) as Asst. Sec. of War under Stimson was to travel to England to learn how to and then revamp the US Intelligence apparatus based upon the British system would not have created a "C" to coordinate the various US intelligence agencies?

Is it to much to suggest that John J. McCloy was America's "C" and as such would understand exactly the reaction of US Intelligence Agencies to the knowledge that the accused assassin of John F. Kennedy had even just uttered the name "John Hurt"?

Jim Root

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Guest Robert Morrow

Do you think that the CIA Pegasus counter-intelligence group, of which Chip Tatum and Trenton Parker were agents - do you think it is a descendent of "Secret Intelligence?"

Meaning an ultra-high level, ultra-secert, operates on its own with no oversight - run by the powers that be in both the government and shadow government? Do you think it was/is tied into the Rockefellers and the elite of the CIA/CFR which Nelson Rockefeller, Allen Dulles and John J. McCloy "the Chairman of the American Establishment" all were?

http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MENA/TATUM/tatum.html

From Defrauding America, Rodney Stich, 3rd edition 1998 p. 638-639]:

“The Role of deep-cover CIA officer, Trenton Parker, has been described in earlier pages, and his function in the CIA's counter-intelligence unit, Pegasus. Parker had stated to me earlier that a CIA faction was responsible for the murder of JFK … During an August 21, 1993, conversation, in response to my questions, Parker said that his Pegasus group had tape recordings of plans to assassinate Kennedy. I asked him, "What group were these tapes identifying?" Parker replied: "Rockefeller, Allen Dulles, JOHNSON of Texas, GEORGE BUSH, and J. Edgar Hoover." I asked, "What was the nature of the conversation on these tapes?"

I don't have the tapes now, because all the tape recordings were turned over to [Congressman] Larry McDonald. But I listened to the tape recordings and there were conversations between Rockefeller, [J. Edgar] Hoover, where [Nelson] Rockefeller asks, "Are we going to have any problems?" And he said, "No, we aren't going to have any problems. I checked with Dulles. If they do their job we'll do our job." There are a whole bunch of tapes, because Hoover didn't realize that his phone has been tapped. Defrauding America, Rodney Stich, p. 638-639]:

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Jim, regarding the premise of this thread, my response

would be, No it is definitely not too much to suggest.

I tend to believe, that is a rather logical line of inquiry.

Not to go south on you, or sound defeatist, but when I think of all, [and there are a lot]

the missing, destroyed and still-classified documents,

over the last 45 odd years, I have come to the conclusion that a great many of the questions

we are asking, have/had the answers, every day

in the grand scheme of things, public interest in "the how's and the why's" of the JFK

assassination become diminished while the old list of players

decreases by deaths, now caused by simple old age.

While some forum members may question the importance of the following some of the

principals being studied are important for their Pearl Harbor era activities and contrasting

that with JFK era connections.

TOP SECRET UMBRA

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Jim, regarding the premise of this thread, my response

would be, No it is definitely not too much to suggest.

I tend to believe, that is a rather logical line of inquiry.

Not to go south on you, or sound defeatist, but when I think of all, [and there are a lot]

the missing, destroyed and still-classified documents,

over the last 45 odd years, I have come to the conclusion that a great many of the questions

we are asking, have/had the answers, every day

in the grand scheme of things, public interest in "the how's and the why's" of the JFK

assassination become diminished while the old list of players

decreases by deaths, now caused by simple old age.

While some forum members may question the importance of the following some of the

principals being studied are important for their Pearl Harbor era activities and contrasting

that with JFK era connections.

TOP SECRET UMBRA

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Robert, you might be having some probs I've encountered at times. Some websites seem to have a feature that 'disables' copy paste ( perhaps there are some invisible formatting in the text that conflicts with board features?). In such instances saving the page as a text file and then copying pasting the relevant sections from that works. There are other ways that copy pasting doesn't work as well. There are sites with features that makes snapshotting the pages seemingly impossible. There are ways around that too.

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Robert, you might be having some probs I've encountered at times. Some websites seem to have a feature that 'disables' copy paste ( perhaps there are some invisible formatting in the text that conflicts with board features?). In such instances saving the page as a text file and then copying pasting the relevant sections from that works. There are other ways that copy pasting doesn't work as well. There are sites with features that makes snapshotting the pages seemingly impossible. There are ways around that too.

Thanks John, All I know is the last couple of times I have posted on the Forum, I have encountered difficulties, that are beyond exasperating, and have never previously encountered. Do you save the page as a text file, when you post on the Forum. Thanks for your help.

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No worries Robert. Yes, sometimes when I can't do a straight copy paste then I save the page as a text file first from the browser ''save page as'' and choose as ''text file'', deselect or delete any html formatting from that and copy paste from the text file the bit/s i want to post.

Also, I'm always cautious of infections that might interfere, plus recent updates and installs that may cause system internal conflicts.

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No worries Robert. Yes, sometimes when I can't do a straight copy paste then I save the page as a text file first from the browser ''save page as'' and choose as ''text file'', deselect or delete any html formatting from that and copy paste from the text file the bit/s i want to post.

Also, I'm always cautious of infections that might interfere, plus recent updates and installs that may cause system internal conflicts.

Thanks sounds like good info...I suppose I didn't keep up enough when the Forum underwent some changes recently.....

Oh well, if I have over 1,800 posts, and I have had only a minimal amount of trouble over the years, I guess I shouldn't feel like too much of a sap...lol

John, Some of the material I am going to be posting I know will be of interest.....

Once I get the gremlins figured out......Thanks Again

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Robert,

The new board allows formatting to be retained, such as if I copy and paste a section from another page, the original formatting is retained. This can cause a few problems on occassion.

I'll have a look around the board settings and see if there is anything that could help, but in the meantime I might suggest you type up your posts in Word or similar, then copy and paste into the Post field.

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