Robert Harris's Broken 3rd Floor Daltex Window Theory Blown Out Of The Water

[Robin Unger]

Greer / Kellerman head turn.

[Chris Davidson]

Actually Chris.

Looking at this frame, and his body position, i think you may be right.

In your GIF Greer does look like he is pushing his body back into the seat, in a similar way as you would if your leg were extended pushing on the brake pedal. ?

This is as close as i can get to the "hand on the steering wheel" frames.

Robin,

Well put.

Extending the leg and lengthening the body.

Otherwise known as bracing one's self.

Take a look at Kellerman and JFK just after Greer's action's.

A sign of forward momentum by two people unhinged and unready for sudden braking.

In fact, JFK also rises up at that point, just as Bill Newman describes.

chris

Click on photo to view the video.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Chris Davidson

[Bill Miller]

What are you going to use to gauge the slowdown Chris? The only thing you have to compare the speed to is the blurred background.

If there is enough film to use ... something like the Nix film would be better.

Bill

[Bill Miller]

Actually Chris.

Looking at this frame, and his body position, i think you may be right.

In your GIF Greer does look like he is pushing his body back into the seat, in a similar way as you would if your leg were extended pushing on the brake pedal. ?

This is as close as i can get to the "hand on the steering wheel" frames.

Had Greer of been breaking hard enough to be pushing himself back into the seat, then wouldn't one expect the car to come to an abrupt decrease in speed all at once? I always thought Greer was slowing down so he could look rearward and not have to worry about running up on the car ahead of him.

In post #354 that Robin made ... Connally appears to be yelling out and my impression is that Greer and Kellerman were looking to see what the commotion was about.

In Greer's report he said, "The President's automobile was almost past this building and I was looking at the overpass that we were about to pass under in case someone was on top of it, when I heard what I thought was the backfire of a motorcycle behind the President's automobile. After the second shot, I glanced over my right shoulder and saw Governor Connally start to fall, I knew then that something was wrong and I immediately pushed the accelerator to the floor and Mr. Kellerman said, get out of here."

Greer's Commission testimony:

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down Elm Street at that time?

Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong.

So much for Harris thinking it bunk that no one would have not recognized gunshots because of motorcycle backfires. It appears that at least Nellie and Greer has mentioned this.

Bill

Edited November 23, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Robert Harris]

Robert,

Take a look at Greer's reaction after the governor gets hit.

Greer is reacting to that shot.

He hits the brakes, braces at least his right arm against the steering wheel, which propels his torso up and backwards toward his seat.

Which means the car should slow down tremendously or stop.

chris

Greer may or may not have been reacting to a shot when he repositioned his hand on the steering wheel, but no-one in the limo exhibited startle reactions then.

And this is not when the limo began to decelerate. Alvarez did a frame-by-frame analysis and concluded that the limo began to slow down in the mid-290's. This is from his paper,

"The heavy car decelerated suddenly for about 0.5 sec (10 frames), centered at about frame 299, reducing its speed from about 12 mph to about 8 mph."

Alvarez concluded that Greer slowed the limo in reaction to a loud noise at Zapruder frame 285 and speculated that the noise was a "siren", mainly because as a staunch WC defender, he knew that Oswald could not have fired shots at both 285 and 312.

We are not looking for reactions here. We are looking for startle reactions. It was at 291-292 that Greer began a turn to the front and back again, so rapidly that some alterationists thought his turns were physically impossible. (they were wrong) Those turns began at the same instant that the limo began to slow down. Look at him react, simultaneous with Roy Kellerman,

[Bill Miller]

Greer may or may not have been reacting to a shot when he repositioned his hand on the steering wheel, but no-one in the limo exhibited startle reactions then.

We are not looking for reactions here. We are looking for startle reactions.

Harris,

I thought we were looking for the truth ... even Greer indicates that he didn't recognize the shots as such and thought they were cycle backfires, so nothing to be startled about there. However, he did say that upon hearing the second noise that he turned and saw Connally looking like he was starting to fall.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down Elm Street at that time?

Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong.

Does it not make sense that Greer is trying to understand just what is wrong in the back while also making sure he doesn't run up on the car ahead of him which he guessed to be about 50'. (For reference ... the distance from the catcher to the pitcher's mound in baseball is 60')

Bill

Edited November 23, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Chris Davidson]

Bill,

Greer infers he hears 2 motorcycle noises, then looks back.

He also refers to a second shot. Where is his description of the first shot?

He makes no distinction between noises and shots.

In other words, at some point, is one of the cycle noises considered a shot by Greer?

Must be the one that hits Connally around 240, which would cause his reaction as seen on the Z film.

Greer knows it's a shot that hits Connally, so does everyone else in the plaza and he reacts accordingly.

If you replace Greer's description of the "acceleration pedal to the floor" with "brake pedal to the floor", you see what is seen in Z with regards to a bracing affect.

chris

[Bill Miller]

Bill,

Greer infers he hears 2 motorcycle noises, then looks back.

He also refers to a second shot. Where is his description of the first shot?

He makes no distinction between noises and shots.

In other words, at some point, is one of the cycle noises considered a shot by Greer?

Chris ... here is what Greer said ... he calls the shots "noises" as if he didn't know they were shots at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down Elm Street at that time?

Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast." (end)

It seems pretty clear to me what he has said.

Must be the one that hits Connally around 240, which would cause his reaction as seen on the Z film.

Greer knows it's a shot that hits Connally, so does everyone else in the plaza and he reacts accordingly.

One shot hit Connally in the back right shoulder between Z223 and Z224. The transfer of energy drives the Governor's shoulder forward and downward which as Nellie described it, 'John buckled and recoiled to his right'. So there was the hit to Connally's shoulder followed by his reaction of recoiling to his right.

If you replace Greer's description of the "acceleration pedal to the floor" with "brake pedal to the floor", you see what is seen in Z with regards to a bracing affect.

chris

Chris ... if you go out for a drive today ... while going about 5 to 10 mph ... press your brake pedal to the floor and see if you don't come to an abrupt halt. The car slows by lighting touching the brake pedal ... if it doesn't then I'd check the fluid and/or get new brakes.

Bill

Edited November 23, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Chris Davidson]

Bill,

You supplied this in post 357:

In Greer's report he said, "The President's automobile was almost past this building and I was looking at the overpass that we were about to pass under in case someone was on top of it, when I heard what I thought was the backfire of a motorcycle behind the President's automobile. After the second shot, I glanced over my right shoulder and saw Governor Connally start to fall, I knew then that something was wrong and I immediately pushed the accelerator to the floor and Mr. Kellerman said, get out of here."

Greer's Commission testimony:

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down Elm Street at that time?

Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong.

You put in bold "Greer's report" which cited the phrase second shot.

When did his report come out? When did his WC testimony occur?

I'm pretty sure he knew at least one of the noises as they appear from behind the Stemmons sign, is a shot.

According to the Life magazine article, Connally believed he was struck at frame 234.

There is a big difference between "pushing the brake pedal to the floor" and using the brake pedal as a brace as "you push it to the floor".

Greer's Z film action's speak louder than his words.

chris

Edited November 23, 2010 by Chris Davidson

[Robin Unger]

Bill,

Greer infers he hears 2 motorcycle noises, then looks back.

He also refers to a second shot. Where is his description of the first shot?

He makes no distinction between noises and shots.

In other words, at some point, is one of the cycle noises considered a shot by Greer?

Must be the one that hits Connally around 240, which would cause his reaction as seen on the Z film.

Greer knows it's a shot that hits Connally, so does everyone else in the plaza and he reacts accordingly.

If you replace Greer's description of the "acceleration pedal to the floor" with "brake pedal to the floor", you see what is seen in Z with regards to a bracing affect.

chris

It has always amazed me that with the sound of the 4- Motorcycles, all the other cars, and the crowd cheering and clapping, that any body was able to hear any shots. ?

From memory aren't the bikes Harley's, that make a considerable amount of noise.

Also, is it normal for those sort of bikes to backfire. ?

[Robert Harris]

Bill,

Greer infers he hears 2 motorcycle noises, then looks back.

He also refers to a second shot. Where is his description of the first shot?

He makes no distinction between noises and shots.

In other words, at some point, is one of the cycle noises considered a shot by Greer?

Must be the one that hits Connally around 240, which would cause his reaction as seen on the Z film.

Greer knows it's a shot that hits Connally, so does everyone else in the plaza and he reacts accordingly.

If you replace Greer's description of the "acceleration pedal to the floor" with "brake pedal to the floor", you see what is seen in Z with regards to a bracing affect.

chris

It has always amazed me that with the sound of the 4- Motorcycles, all the other cars, and the crowd cheering and clapping, that any body was able to hear any shots. ?

From memory aren't the bikes Harley's, that make a considerable amount of noise.

Also, is it normal for those sort of bikes to backfire. ?

You would not be amazed if you took a little time to comprehend what 130 decibels is. The HSCA experts who conducted listening tests in Dealey Plaza, brought in three motorcycles and concluded that the shots much louder. They totally drowned them out.

The high powered rifle shots that were fired during the assassination startled the limo passengers exactly as had to happen. Those reactions are highly visible and dramatic and occurred within a third of a second following 285 and 312.

[Robert Harris]

Bill,

You supplied this in post 357:

In Greer's report he said, "The President's automobile was almost past this building and I was looking at the overpass that we were about to pass under in case someone was on top of it, when I heard what I thought was the backfire of a motorcycle behind the President's automobile. After the second shot, I glanced over my right shoulder and saw Governor Connally start to fall, I knew then that something was wrong and I immediately pushed the accelerator to the floor and Mr. Kellerman said, get out of here."

Greer's Commission testimony:

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down Elm Street at that time?

Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong.

You put in bold "Greer's report" which cited the phrase second shot.

When did his report come out? When did his WC testimony occur?

I'm pretty sure he knew at least one of the noises as they appear from behind the Stemmons sign, is a shot.

According to the Life magazine article, Connally believed he was struck at frame 234.

There is a big difference between "pushing the brake pedal to the floor" and using the brake pedal as a brace as "you push it to the floor".

Greer's Z film action's speak louder than his words.

chris

Bill Greer ONLY referred to the first noise as sounding like a backfire. He called the second, a "shot". That's understandable, because he also talked about feeling the "concussion" of that shot which had to have been the shock wave of the passing bullet. This part of his testimony also provides an important clue as when he heard the shot that startled him and caused him to lift his foot from the gas (he did NOT hit the brake).

Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your ability to recollect and estimate, how much time elapsed from the first noise which you have described as being similar to the backfire of a motor vehicle until you heard the second noise?

Mr. GREER. It seems a matter of seconds, I really couldn't say. Three or four seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. How much time elapsed, to the best of your ability to estimate and recollect, between the time of the second noise and the time of the third noise?

Mr. GREER. The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other..

It is more than obvious that Greer is referring to the shots at 285 and 312, as did the large majority of other witnesses throughout Dealey that day who confirmed that the second and third were closely bunched.

And Alvarez's analysis proved that the slowdown began within a fraction of a second following 285. Greer would only have done such a thing if he had been severely startled. His reaction was in unison with every other nonvictim in the limo then, as well as with the startle reaction by Abraham Zapruder which caused the heavy blurring in frames 290 and 291.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Robert Harris

[Bill Miller]

According to the Life magazine article, Connally believed he was struck at frame 234.

There is a big difference between "pushing the brake pedal to the floor" and using the brake pedal as a brace as "you push it to the floor".

Greer's Z film action's speak louder than his words.

chris

To start with ... Connally said that he could see he was shot in Z234 ... Connally didn't have a stabilized in motion view to study and go by. I did not understand him to say which frame the bullet had struck him.

I thought everyone knew how to see peoples testimonies on the assassination ... here is the link http://mcadams.posc....du/russ/wit.htm You will find Greer's report and testimony there.

And Green never put the brake pedal to the floor on Elm Street in my view for if he had done so - the car would have come to a dead halt.

Bill

Edited November 23, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Also, is it normal for those sort of bikes to backfire. ?

Assassination witnesses said so. I have posted that at the 35th anniversary of the assassination that four such cycles flanked the replica car as it came down Elm and the noise was deafening.

Bill

[Bill Miller]

It is more than obvious that Greer is referring to the shots at 285 and 312, as did the large majority of other witnesses throughout Dealey that day who confirmed that the second and third were closely bunched.

So let's see, Harris ... So you are saying that Greer knew that he was hearing gunfire, but didn't know anything was wrong until after he turned around and saw Connally falling ... is that the story you wish to stick with?

Bill Greer after he has heard two noises and has turned to look at Connally to see him falling over said this: "Then I realized there was something wrong."

In other words - Greer heard noises but didn't know they were shots until he had seen Connally falling. Feel free to show the text to an English teacher of choice and see if they do not agree.

Bill