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Fritz ADDED the part about the photos afterward...


David Josephs
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In his notes of Oswald's interrogation, Fritz had his notes typed up and then it SEEMS as if he edited them with a stenographer who added text as needed..

The BIG DEAL over Fritz asking Oswald about the BY photos on Saturday, 4 hours BEFORE they were found, has always bothered me since the standard reply has been that this was

after the fact and not necessarily remembered correctly...

I found this page of notes from Fritz' report in the Dallas Archives and had someone finally transcribe the shorthand... it is virtually verbatim of the final reports typed text...

"

...when the picture was made of him holding the rifle...."

Box 1: Folder 15

1. Interrogation, by an unknown author. Typed rough draft with handwritten corrections pertaining to the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), date unknown. 12 pages 00000412 01 15 001 0412-001.gif 0412-002.gif 0412-003.gif 0412-004.gif 0412-005.gif 0412-006.gif 0412-007.gif 0412-008.gif 0412-009.gif 0412-010.gif 0412-011.gif 0412-012.gif

To me this proves that Fritz had the opportunity to think about what he was writing and make additions... he decides to add the fact that he asked Oswald about where he lived SPECIFICALLY to find out where the photo(s) were made... at the 12:35 interrogation.

Strange thing though is that the next page of the rough draft INCLUDES the shorthand written passage? I STILL think this whole little "episode" is very strange indeed.

DJ

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This is a bit of a surprise to me... no comments at all?

The section as written was completely UNNECESSARY to the discussion of the interrogation...

Adding that he was asking BECAUSE he wanted to determine where the photo was taken is a dead giveaway.

He ends page 8 with "...where he was living." yet goes on to add the part about the photo knowing full well that it had not been found by then.

Does anyone know who the stenogragher was who helped Fritz with this and whether it was Fritz who added this part...?

Was he that smart to leave a clue in his report days later?

And why add MORE detail...

thanks

DJ

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This is a bit of a surprise to me... no comments at all?

The section as written was completely UNNECESSARY to the discussion of the interrogation...

Adding that he was asking BECAUSE he wanted to determine where the photo was taken is a dead giveaway.

He ends page 8 with "...where he was living." yet goes on to add the part about the photo knowing full well that it had not been found by then.

Does anyone know who the stenogragher was who helped Fritz with this and whether it was Fritz who added this part...?

Was he that smart to leave a clue in his report days later?

And why add MORE detail...

thanks

DJ

I'll have something to say about this at some point tomorrow, David.

I want to read up on a few things first.

Thanks Lee... would be very interested in what you have to say on the subject.

DJ

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  • 5 years later...

I have read about this 'anomaly' before and I find it very intriguing indeed. At first I thought that it might have just been a case of adding information at the later time as way of explanation/answer for what was being asked at the time, but there seems to be some ambiguity that could be attributed to it.

If it was a case of adding in information that was later found out it should have been stated clearly... for example, on page 6 it reads "He said he had a brother, Robert, who lived in Fort Worth. We found later that this brother lived in Denton"... that makes that very clear.

Looking at the end of page 8 and start of page 9...

"I talked to Oswald about the different places he had lived in Dallas in an effort to find where he was living when the picture was made of him holding a rifle which looked to be the same rifle we had recovered"

On reading that it seems clear that the picture had already been found by that time, yet that doesn't fit in with the 'official' story... (hope it's ok if I 'skip' over the who, what and when and how of the 'official' story so as not to overly elongate this post more than it needs be. (Happy to delve more in to it at some point) Suffice to say it isn't until after this point that the 'backyard photos' are found, returned and then blown up to be shown to Oswald at the first time at approx. 6:30pm.

Quite a big anomaly there then. How to explain the apparent knowledge of the photos before the photos were found!

On 29/11/2011 at 1:16 AM, David Josephs said:

The BIG DEAL over Fritz asking Oswald about the BY photos on Saturday, 4 hours BEFORE they were found, has always bothered me since the standard reply has been that this was

after the fact and not necessarily remembered correctly...

 

I agree those would be the standard reply (and not just for this tidbit of info. lol). Personally though I don't think it would be a case of not remembering correctly, the Fitz would mix up the time line of it so badly. As for after the fact - as I have noted earlier it would seem that if it had been an 'after the fact' thought/explanation etc then it would be more clear.

So what could the explanation (or at least 'an' explanation)... perhaps it's just bad wordage!

One thing that stands out to me is that on the top of page 9 the w of 'when' looks like it is meant to be changed to either be 'When' or changed to 'Then' or even perhaps it could be that the W has been put there and then crossed out. (hope that makes sense). Still seems bothersome though. The more I think about it as I type this the more confused I am by it all...

 

I created an image showing the bottom of page 8 and start of page 9 together that shows all the 'relevant' bits...

pg89.JPG

It does seema bit 'jumpy' the way it is worded, I really don't know if I can make sense of it or reconcile it either way... certainly a topic that would seem to merit more discussion.

Just to ask, what kind of shorthand is it in use?

Regards

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I'm fairly sure it's just plain shorthand Alistair...  and the corroboration is Michael being asked to ID the location Friday night...

Mr. LIEBELER - Did the FBI or any other investigatory agency of the Government ever show you a picture of the rifle that was supposed to have been used to assassinate the President? 
Mr. PAINE - They asked me at first, the first night of the assassination if I could locate, identify the place where Lee was standing when he was holding this rifle and some, the picture on the cover of Life. 

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Cheers for the response David :) (hope you weren't too shocked to see the resurrection of a thread from 5 years ago. lol)

*When I was at college many years ago part of the journalism course was to learn Teeline Shorthand (which is pretty much the standard one used by journalisms in the UK) - I haven't used it pretty much since learning it so extremely rusty with it. I did try and decode the above shorthand but didn't get anywhere with it. I now realise that is probably because it is a different shorthand from what I know, and it is more likely to be either the 'Pitman shorthand' method or the 'Gregg shorthand' method (both more popular in the US)

Regards

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Old topics never die they just need a new POV...  :lol:

I remember looking into the different shorthand styles - luckily here at the state we have many who were able to decipher it for me.

Add now that Frasier gets ce399 at 7:30 from Elmer Todd yet Todd does not get ce399 from Rowley until 8:50pm and we begin to see how the FBI and SS worked together to create the lone nut story.  ce399 was, imo, fired from the Carcano in DC... whether that night or well prior, probably prior since the FBI experts did not test to see if the Carcano was fired that day...

I've done a few things on Kennedys and Kings (ctka.net)  related to the rifle & BYP evidence...  check them out if interested...

 

DJ

 

 

 

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On 11/28/2011 at 7:16 PM, David Josephs said:

In his notes of Oswald's interrogation, Fritz had his notes typed up and then it SEEMS as if he edited them with a stenographer who added text as needed..

I found this page of notes from Fritz' report in the Dallas Archives and had someone finally transcribe the shorthand... it is virtually verbatim of the final reports typed text...

"

...when the picture was made of him holding the rifle...."

Box 1: Folder 15

1. Interrogation, by an unknown author. Typed rough draft with handwritten corrections pertaining to the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), date unknown. 12 pages 00000412 01 15 001 0412-001.gif 0412-002.gif 0412-003.gif 0412-004.gif 0412-005.gif 0412-006.gif 0412-007.gif 0412-008.gif 0412-009.gif 0412-010.gif 0412-011.gif 0412-012.gif

To me this proves that Fritz had the opportunity to think about what he was writing and make additions... he decides to add the fact that he asked Oswald about where he lived SPECIFICALLY to find out where the photo(s) were made... at the 12:35 interrogation.

Strange thing though is that the next page of the rough draft INCLUDES the shorthand written passage? I STILL think this whole little "episode" is very strange indeed.

DJ

David,

 

You can also find this interrogation report rough draft in Box 15, Folder# 1, Item# 111. This version is before the corrections and stenogropher's writing.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm

 

It wasn't unusual for the police officers (and probably representatives of other other government agencies like the FBI and Secret Service) to review and correct their statements multiple times before submitting them. As Kenneth Croy told the Warren Commission in his testimony regarding his Report to Curry on his duties on the 24th:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/croy.htm

 

Mr. CROY. No; well, I will put it this way, that it took us 8 hours to get that up. That is how interested they were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked with them for 8 hours?
Mr. CROY. On 2 different occasions. That day and the next day, for 4 hours each day. That is pretty interesting.

Mr. CROY. No; we talked the entire thing over, and after we talked everything over and they brought the stenographer in and we went back over it again, then I left and she typed it up, and I came in the next day and we went back over it again and back over it and so on.

 

I found three things in Fritz's Interrogation Report that were interesting to me:

1) On page 4 of the Notes, he wrote that Tippit was arraigned before Judge Johnston at 7:10 PM. What was interesting is that Fritz didn't catch that in the Report in Box 15 when he corrected and changed the Report that you find in Box 1.

2) On Page 2 of that Report, Fritz said he got a call from Shanklin that Shanklin wanted Hosty in on the interview, because Hosty "knew about these people and had had been investigating them before".

What's that all about?

3) Also on Page 2, Fritz wrote that in addition to Sims and Boyd of the Homicide Bureau being present at Oswald's first interrogation, there were also "possibly some Secret Service men". This was corroborated by Sims, Boyd, M.W. Stevenson, and Chief Curry of the DPD. I have searched for this Secret Service agent, or agents and I don't know who this could be. I wrote a piece on this a while back called, Secret Service, On the Knoll and Beyond that you can find here if you're interested:

 

Steve Thomas

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On 12/28/2016 at 3:38 AM, Steve Thomas said:

David,

 

You can also find this interrogation report rough draft in Box 15, Folder# 1, Item# 111. This version is before the corrections and stenogropher's writing.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm

 

It wasn't unusual for the police officers (and probably representatives of other other government agencies like the FBI and Secret Service) to review and correct their statements multiple times before submitting them. As Kenneth Croy told the Warren Commission in his testimony regarding his Report to Curry on his duties on the 24th:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/croy.htm

 

Mr. CROY. No; well, I will put it this way, that it took us 8 hours to get that up. That is how interested they were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked with them for 8 hours?
Mr. CROY. On 2 different occasions. That day and the next day, for 4 hours each day. That is pretty interesting.

Mr. CROY. No; we talked the entire thing over, and after we talked everything over and they brought the stenographer in and we went back over it again, then I left and she typed it up, and I came in the next day and we went back over it again and back over it and so on.

 

I found three things in Fritz's Interrogation Report that were interesting to me:

1) On page 4 of the Notes, he wrote that Tippit was arraigned before Judge Johnston at 7:10 PM. What was interesting is that Fritz didn't catch that in the Report in Box 15 when he corrected and changed the Report that you find in Box 1.

2) On Page 2 of that Report, Fritz said he got a call from Shanklin that Shanklin wanted Hosty in on the interview, because Hosty "knew about these people and had had been investigating them before".

What's that all about?

3) Also on Page 2, Fritz wrote that in addition to Sims and Boyd of the Homicide Bureau being present at Oswald's first interrogation, there were also "possibly some Secret Service men". This was corroborated by Sims, Boyd, M.W. Stevenson, and Chief Curry of the DPD. I have searched for this Secret Service agent, or agents and I don't know who this could be. I wrote a piece on this a while back called, Secret Service, On the Knoll and Beyond that you can find here if you're interested:

 

Steve Thomas

Interesting thoughts Steve...  I am still amazed how every single change removes a problem for the conspirators and makes Oswald look more guilty.

This is the page - draft p9 which claims Oswald was returned to his cell at 11:33 am with another interview starting at 12:35.

2965-009.gif 

This must be a revised page, still rough draft, that places him back in his cell at 1:10pm on the 23rd.

 

0412-009.gif 

 

Yet his notes tell yet a different story.  Note #2 on the below composited page states:

2nd interview 23rd
Present 10:35-11:34

So what do you suppose happens between 11:35 and 1:10 that Fritz first recalls a 3rd interview at 12:35 pm which needs to be changed to 6:00 pm while 11:35 is changed to 1:10... when does Fritz recall the photo (negatives) did not arrive at DPD until around 4pm?

This is Box 1 Folder 15 where the archives say the rest of the "typed draft"   Steve, do we know where the final report is?

8. Statement typed, by J. W. Fritz. Page 12 of typed draft of the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald. See box 01 for other pages of this draft, (Original), date unknown. 00001011 1 page 03 18 008 1011-001.gif

1. Interrogation, by an unknown author. Typed rough draft with handwritten corrections pertaining to the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), date unknown. 12 pages 00000412 01 15 001 0412-001.gif  0412-002.gif  0412-003.gif  0412-004.gif  0412-005.gif  0412-006.gif  0412-007.gif  0412-008.gif  0412-009.gif  0412-010.gif  0412-011.gif  0412-012.gif

The other thing to notice is the notes say "6:35"  not 6 pm like the correction states, but 6:35  from what was originally "12:35".  Only a slight coincidence here...  now let's look at the note itself.    11:25?  Since we have little history for these documents, changing 11:25 to 6:35 on this page doesn't seem to be to difficult a task.  Wouldn't we expect to see "11:25 am" on the 1st draft? 

So one wonders where the 12:35 pm time comes from.


Your next point #2 about Hosty...  Wasn't it Hosty who told Levelle about Oswald and in turn got sent to Siberia by Hoover?  Wasn't Hosty in charge of keeping tabs on "them" the Oswalds?

 

#3 then ...  I've read that the ATF men would be considered Secret Service men to many who they showed ID and they were the first ones on the scene in addition to DPD and the Sheriffs (who were told not to help at all, so one wonders why Boone and Montgomery are in such a rush taking care of assassination related investigation AND were involved with the finding of the rifle and shells...)   Then we also have the potential impostors in DP on the conspiracy side maybe there to insure chaos.


Mr. BELIN - Was anyone around in the back when you got there?
Mr. HARKNESS - There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service.

 

"...[FBI Agent James] Hosty told the [House] Select Committee that at the time of the assassination 'Frank' Ellsworth...had indicated that he had been in the grassy knoll area and for some reason identified himself as a Secret Service Agent.' 8 Ellsworth, deposed by the Committee, denied Hosty's allegation. We know, however, that he was in the immediate area.9 Interestingly, he and seven other ATF agents were among the first law enforcement personnel of any description to reach the sixth floor of the TSBD. If Ellsworth was in the vicinity, it remains to be asked how Hosty knew about it. (Peter Dale Scott, "Deep Politics," pg. 274)

"In 1963, if you would have asked me if I was a Secret Service agent, I most likely would have answered yes-our roles overlapped that much." (Frank Ellsworth to author Gus Russo in 1994, "Live By The Sword," pg. 473)

 

 

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11 hours ago, David Josephs said:

 

 

This is Box 1 Folder 15 where the archives say the rest of the "typed draft"   Steve, do we know where the final report is?

David,

 

You can find one copy in Volume XI of the Warren Report itself here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=623&tab=page

and another copy in the Papers of Will Fritz here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29104

 

I have not sat down and compared these line by line to what you find in Box 15 Folder@ 1, Item#111 of the DPD Archives.

 

Steve Thomas

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12 hours ago, David Josephs said:

 

 

 

#3 then ...  I've read that the ATF men would be considered Secret Service men to many who they showed ID

Maybe to many, but not to Sims and Boyd of the DPD.

Following the assassination, Detectives Richard M. Sims and Elmer L. Boyd of the Homicide and Robbery Bureau filed a joint after-action report with Police Chief Jesse Curry. In their undated report, Sims and Boyd wrote, “Detective Studebaker and Lieutenant Day took pictures of the rifle. Mr. Pinkston of the F.B.I. and a Secret Service Agent were there at the time the pictures were being made. We don’t know the Secret Service agent’s name. Mr. Ellsworth and another officer from Alcohol Tax Department were also there.

They knew enough to distinguish between the FBI, Secret Service and ATTU.

"Report on Officer's Duty in Regard to the President's Murder, R. M. Sims. No. 629, and E. L. Boyd, No, 840. Dallas Police archives Box 3 Folder # 4, as cited in the City of Dallas Archives – JFK Collection, http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm

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On 12/29/2016 at 2:44 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Maybe to many, but not to Sims and Boyd of the DPD.

Following the assassination, Detectives Richard M. Sims and Elmer L. Boyd of the Homicide and Robbery Bureau filed a joint after-action report with Police Chief Jesse Curry. In their undated report, Sims and Boyd wrote, “Detective Studebaker and Lieutenant Day took pictures of the rifle. Mr. Pinkston of the F.B.I. and a Secret Service Agent were there at the time the pictures were being made. We don’t know the Secret Service agent’s name. Mr. Ellsworth and another officer from Alcohol Tax Department were also there.

They knew enough to distinguish between the FBI, Secret Service and ATTU.

"Report on Officer's Duty in Regard to the President's Murder, R. M. Sims. No. 629, and E. L. Boyd, No, 840. Dallas Police archives Box 3 Folder # 4, as cited in the City of Dallas Archives – JFK Collection, http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm

Considering we know that no SS agents were in the TSBD at this time either they are reassigning someone to the SS who they do not want to name, someone NOT SS pretended to be with credentials via Holt's story, or there really was a SS agent there... again, it seems to me that anyone who could cause a problem later had their name conveniently forgotten and by officers who appear to know the names of just about everyone else.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=631&tab=page 
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29104#relPageId=9&tab=page

Both of these state the time for the 3rd interview as 12:35pm so if these are the corrected version they dropped the 6pm 3rd interview time... OR those with the corrections were done well after the fact.  Fritz's notes reflect a 6:35pm time as I posted yet I feel that the 11:25 scratched out would have been to account for the hour before he was questioned again.

Do you know if anything is recorded for what happened between 11:30 and 12:30 on Saturday?

 

img_946_631_300.png img_29104_9_200.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Considering we know that no SS agents were in the TSBD at this time either they are reassigning someone to the SS who they do not want to name, someone NOT SS pretended to be with credentials via Holt's story, or there really was a SS agent there... again, it seems to me that anyone who could cause a problem later had their name conveniently forgotten and by officers who appear to know the names of just about everyone else.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=631&tab=page 
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29104#relPageId=9&tab=page

Both of these state the time for the 3rd interview as 12:35pm so if these are the corrected version they dropped the 6pm 3rd interview time... OR those with the corrections were done well after the fact.  Fritz's notes reflect a 6:35pm time as I posted yet I feel that the 11:25 scratched out would have been to account for the hour before he was questioned again.

Do you know if anything is recorded for what happened between 11:30 and 12:30 on Saturday?

 

img_946_631_300.png img_29104_9_200.jpg

 

 

 

 

FBI Agent PINKSTON claiming years later to have been 1st on the TSBD scene and spoke with Day about the rifle.jpg

David,

 

Thanks for discussing this with me. I've learned a lot.

 

I'm not ready to knowledgeably (is that a real word?) discuss this yet, because I'm still researching it, but for what it's worth, I've come to believe that the Fritz Interrogation notes are a fraud. Not so much a fraud, as fraudulent; because I believe that a page has been removed between pp. 4 and 5 of those notes in an effort to hide the Interview at 12:35. I can't say positively what was discussed, but from what I surmise, only Fritz and Thomas Kelley were there. For example, the two DPD Detectives who were supposed to be there, Senkel and Turner, make no mention of attending an Interrogation on the 23rd in their after-action Reports. Neither does James Bookhout of the FBI. I'll be writing more about this later.

 

You mentioned Nat Pinkston of the FBI getting information about Kleins. Turner's after-action Report makes interesting reading. Look at the bottom of page 4 and the top of page 5 about him receiving an anonymous phone call about Kleins.

DPD Archives Box 15, Folder# 2, Item# 55

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm

 

Somebody was pushing Kleins pretty hard that day.

 

I don't know what was going on between 11:30 and 12:35. Maybe Fritz was out in the hall giving interviews?

 

What do you make of the bottom on page 5 of Fritz's Interrogation notes where he says that Oswald was complaining on Saturday night about wanting a jacket for a lineup? There was no lineup on Saturday night.

in the DPD Archives Box 6, Folder# 1, Item# 73, there is a list of the lineups and when they took place. The only line-up on Saturday took place at 2:15 in the afternoon. If Oswald was complaining about wanting a jacket, he couldn't have been doing that at 6:30 in the evening.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box6.htm

 

PS. BTW, this list of the lineups that you find in Box 6 is the only place you will find Howard Brennan listed.

 

Steve Thomas

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David & Steve, I must admit I am 'out my depth' a bit on everything that is being discussed here (I need to spend more time getting up to speed) but am really interested in the topic. :)

Not sure how relevant this may be really, but in Bugliosi's book Four Days In November, what is mentioned for the time of 12:35 is...

vbfull.JPG

(Sorry for my awful camera skills)

The note references are;

1121 Kelley Exhibit A,20 H 442
1122 Kelley Exhibit A, 20H 442; 7 H 230-231, WCT Guy F.Rose; CE 2003, 24 H 268-249
1123 CE 2003, 24 H 394; Oswald with Land and Land, Lee, p.139

As I said, I do feel a bit out of my depth on this discussion, but hopefully the above may be of some interest(?)

Regards

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Thank Alistair!

That's the trouble with lies, a few little mistakes in the retelling of them makes them stand out like a sore thumb.

I'm convinced those images the photos that is, were already at the DPD.  After the fact we learn from the CSSS reports that no photos were brought in when if they had actually found negatives and matching photos they would have kept them together on a single CSSS form.

I believe it is Stovall who claims that these were included in the BLUE SUITCASE as "Misc photos and maps" yet when the FBI's HOSTY recaps what was in that suitcase, the lists do not even come clse to each other...  200 circulars?

Anyway, the ONLY reference to evidence that calls out found PHOTOS is that reference.  I personally believe Rose/Stovall brought the negatives with them.

 

Steve - you make a great point about the jacket for a line up that never happens but DOES happen at 2:15.  Makes sense that the 12:35pm interview which lasts a while would include this comment...as they transition to this line-up.  makes perfect sense - yes?

Regarding Klein's and Waldman...  I did quite a bit of work published at ctka on the Rifle evidence*.  I found that there exists both a report stating the film was given to DOLAN of the FBI, signed only by Dolan...  and another 2 pages earlier with all 3 FBI agents who investigated at Kleins, signing that WALDMAN kept the film in his own safe (last attachment).  The other document reports Waldman making a comment about the Dodd committee "on his back". 

I'd theorize that the connection of Dodd's committee and Kleins and the FBI is well more than a coincidence. Waldman could only have been the right guy from Kleins to subpeona if they needed to stay away from the truth.  Michael Scibor was also at Kleins that night with Waldman.  The most unique night in his life with his assisting the FBI catch the killer of POTUS  and he "was very uncooperative and evasive".  ??

Add in the US Postal Inspector Holmes whose story of that day conflicts with virtually every bit of evidence and yet again we have a corner of the conspiracy which is FUBAR....  

... enough of that, Happy Holiday and New Years to everyone...  healthy happy New Year.
DJ

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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