A source for the film of Oswald going past Lovelady into Fritz's office

[Thomas Graves]

Thank you Joe, for your information, greatly appreciated....b

[...]

"... why was Lovelady at the DPD, prior to the arrival of Oswald? It now appears that he was brought there with "others" and I'd like to know by whom, and who conducted the interrogation. The hypothesis I posited is that the same "resemblance" which has caused so much trouble (vis a vis the issue of whether he was "the man in the doorway") may have caused him to be picked up early and brought in for interrogation, based on an incomplete and faulty profile of the pre-selected patsy. If Lovelady was brought in for an innocent reason, then that conjecture would be wrong. But its still not clear to me why Lovelady was in the Dallas Police "interrogation room" at that early hour. " (emphasis added by T. Graves)

[...]

David,

In the interest of being as precise as possibe, was Lovelady filmed in the "Interview Room", the "Interrogation Room", or in the hallway outside one of those two rooms?

Thanks,

--Tommy

[David Lifton]

Thank you Joe, for your information, greatly appreciated....b

[...]

"... why was Lovelady at the DPD, prior to the arrival of Oswald? It now appears that he was brought there with "others" and I'd like to know by whom, and who conducted the interrogation. The hypothesis I posited is that the same "resemblance" which has caused so much trouble (vis a vis the issue of whether he was "the man in the doorway") may have caused him to be picked up early and brought in for interrogation, based on an incomplete and faulty profile of the pre-selected patsy. If Lovelady was brought in for an innocent reason, then that conjecture would be wrong. But its still not clear to me why Lovelady was in the Dallas Police "interrogation room" at that early hour. " (emphasis added by T. Graves)

[...]

David,

In the interest of being as precise as possibe, was Lovelady filmed in the "Interview Room", the "Interrogation Room", or in the hallway outside one of those two rooms?

Thanks,

--Tommy

Fact is, I don't know. In my post(s), I passed on the information about the description of the area as furnished in an email from Gary Mack.

Other than the fact that, around 1972/73 (when working on Executive Action), I came across this footage of Oswald being brought into the DPD and being marched by Lovelay, this has really not been my "speciality." But. . I have always been intereted in understanding why Lovelady lied and said e was wearing a red and white striped shirt that day, when he obvioiusy was not. (The best I have been able to come up with is that he really wanted to distance himself from Oswald, and so did not tell the truth about the clothing he was actually wearing).

DSL

[Richard Hocking]

...

Anyway, my primary purpose in beginning this thread was to address the question: why was Lovelady at the DPD, prior to the arrival of Oswald? It now appears that he was brought there with "others" and I'd like to know by whom, and who conducted the interrogation. The hypothesis I posited is that the same "resemblance" which has caused so much trouble (vis a vis the issue of whether he was "the man in the doorway") may have caused him to be picked up early and brought in for interrogation, based on an incomplete and faulty profile of the pre-selected patsy. If Lovelady was brought in for an innocent reason, then that conjecture would be wrong. But its still not clear to me why Lovelady was in the Dallas Police "interrogation room" at that early hour. Perhaps its innocent, but I'd still like to see more information before the issue is entirely resolved in my own mind.

DSL

This part of your post brings to mind the questioning of Buell Frazier by Bugliosi in the mock trial. I don't have the transcript in front of me, but to paraphrase, Bugliosi asks Frazier if Oswald and Lovelady look similar. Frazier says not really, and adds that Lovelady is short and stocky and LHO is taller and thinner. He goes on to say the only similarity is they both have receding hairlines.

That observation throws a bit of a wrench into Lovelady being brought in due to similarity in appearance with the suspect.

Also, just from memory, Danny Arce said he was taken to the Police Dept. to make a statement, so he may have been one of the individuals that accompanied Lovelady.

[David Lifton]

...

Anyway, my primary purpose in beginning this thread was to address the question: why was Lovelady at the DPD, prior to the arrival of Oswald? It now appears that he was brought there with "others" and I'd like to know by whom, and who conducted the interrogation. The hypothesis I posited is that the same "resemblance" which has caused so much trouble (vis a vis the issue of whether he was "the man in the doorway") may have caused him to be picked up early and brought in for interrogation, based on an incomplete and faulty profile of the pre-selected patsy. If Lovelady was brought in for an innocent reason, then that conjecture would be wrong. But its still not clear to me why Lovelady was in the Dallas Police "interrogation room" at that early hour. Perhaps its innocent, but I'd still like to see more information before the issue is entirely resolved in my own mind.

DSL

This part of your post brings to mind the questioning of Buell Frazier by Bugliosi in the mock trial. I don't have the transcript in front of me, but to paraphrase, Bugliosi asks Frazier if Oswald and Lovelady look similar. Frazier says not really, and adds that Lovelady is short and stocky and LHO is taller and thinner. He goes on to say the only similarity is they both have receding hairlines.

That observation throws a bit of a wrench into Lovelady being brought in due to similarity in appearance with the suspect.

Also, just from memory, Danny Arce said he was taken to the Police Dept. to make a statement, so he may have been one of the individuals that accompanied Lovelady.

Richard. . .I agree. And as soon as I learned (from Backes, and Gary Mack, and another researcher) that there were actually DPD reports (Senkel, and Brown) reporting how several TSBD employees were brought in, I immediately reconsidered (and publicly retracted) my position that Lovelady was there merely because o a similarity of appearance. (Cinque then jumped back in and said I was "eating crow". Typical of him.)

But do note: those DPD reports (about bringing in employees) do not mention Lovelady. (Maybe there is such a report; but he's not mentioned in the report of Senkel or Brown).

One other matter: those interested in the various DPD employees should carefully examine the higher numbered Willis Slides .

Willis #8 shows Bonnie Ray Wiliams and Jarman.

Willis #11 shows at least 3 "men in suits" (what researcher William Weston used to call "The Calm Men").

There may be much more info tucked away in these slides, if one examines them carefully.

DSL

[Richard Hocking]

To followup on the TSBD employees who went to the Dallas Police Station:

In CE 1381, the following men state they went and gave statements. Each one gave a time reference as to when they left the TSBD or when they arrived at the Station.

Danny Arce: about 1:00

Jack Dougherty: Left at 1:30

Charles Givens: About and hour after the shooting [1:30]

Billy Lovelady: 1:45

William Shelley: about 1:30 [mentions he saw LHO at the police station]

BR Williams: shortly after 1:00

DPD Officer Senkel: Brown and I left the Texas School Book Depository with witnesses William Shelley, Bonnie Ray Williams, and Danny Garcia Arce.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1548-002.gif

That leaves Lovelady, Givens and Dougherty presumably getting a lift from someone else.

[Richard Hocking]

...

So which one do we think is Bill Shelley in the photograph linked below? Is it the guy opening the car door who Pat Speer pointed out a few days ago? Or is it the guy behind Arce?

http://1078567.sites...files/17068.jpg

Both are wearing ties and could be either the figure stood behind Lovelady in Altgens-6 or could be the guy shielding his eyes from the sun with his right arm...

Shelley was a WWII Vet. [William Weston suggests Shelley had an Intelligence Background during and after the War (The Spider's Web: The Texas School Book Depository and the Dallas Conspiracy).

Edit: Just checked. Shelley was only 37 in 1963, With that in mind he very well could be the guy behind Danny Arce...

2nd Edit: After reading some more reports, The Uniformed officer is probably Brown. The guy next to him in the plain clothes / suit reaching for the door is very likely Detective B. L. Senkel.

Williams, Arce, and Shelley are standing in line waiting to get into the car. The other officer wearing the helmet is likely a motorcycle officer helping out, ID unknown.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Richard Hocking

[Thomas Graves]

David,

What's so special about the Sheriff's Office?

It is not true that Mr. Shapiro was the first one to alert the FBI about the issue of "Doorway Man." Mr. Shapiro talks with the FBI on the 25th. Nor was he the first one to give the FBI a copy of the Altgens photo.

Altgens photo was on the AP wire within 40 minutes of the assassination, TV stations could have gotten it off the AP and showed it live. As recall, the NBC footage broadcasted on the A & E channel entitled "As it Happened," showed some photographs from Dallas and Dealey Plaza. Perhaps they showed this one from Altgens? It was certainly available for evening newspapers, and extra editions. By the 23rd it was in nearly every newspaper on earth, often, as the case with The Washington Post, on the front page.

The FBI knew of this issue and contacted Lovelady at his house and asked him about the Altgens photo the night after the assassination. So, that would be the 23rd. See CE 1408.

Weisberg writes that on November 25th, 1963 a Mr. Mike Shapiro, manager at WFAA-TV in Dallas brought the Altgens photo to the attention of local FBI agents. Shapiro tells them that an individual (perhaps an employee?) in the Associated Press office in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania noted a similarity between “Doorway Man,” and Oswald. Shapiro gives the agents an enlarged copy of the Altgens photo. (Whitewash II p. 154) However, this is not where the FBI obtains the photograph for the first time.

There is an FBI report dated March 3, 1964 ( CD 457a, reproduced on p. 188 of Photographic Whitewash). It states that the first time the FBI knew of the Altgens photo was when Mr. Mike Shapiro of WFAA-TV in Dallas showed FBI agents an enlarged copy of the Altgens photo. But, the report does not mention Altgens by name. The report says the photo was taken by “an Associated Press photographer,” even though the captions crediting him are refered to. (PW p.66) Weisberg believes that by not mentioning Altgens by name the FBI doesn’t draw attention to its failure to interview Altgens by this date.

This March 3, 1964 FBI report goes on, building on the (false) foundation that it had not acquired a copy of the photo until Nov 25th when FBI agents went to Mr. Lovelady who identified himself in the photo. But, this is all false. The FBI showed Lovelady a copy of the Altgens photo the night after the assassination.

Weisberg refers to a book called, “The Kennedy Assassination and the American People,” that mentions how Elmer Lower, an executive with ABC - TV wondered what to do with a photo that seems to suggest Oswald witnessed the assassination and was not the assassin. He worried it would cause a sensation. “We decided against using the picture immediately. Instead we informed the FBI about it.” ( Whitewash II p. 153 ) And so the FBI checked out the photo and soon declared it was not Oswald but another employee.

I’m not sure of the exact time frame here when the FBI talk to Elmer Lower but I believe this happens prior to November 25th because Weisberg mentions this Elmer Lower story (Whitewash II p. 153) prior to telling us about Mr. Michael Shapiro (Whitewash II p. 154) whose story happens on November 25th, 1963. I have ordered a copy of “The Kennedy Assassination and the American People,” that Weisberg quotes from, and if that gives a date for the Elmer Lower - FBI meeting I’ll make note of it.

Weisberg writes that the FBI had and used a copy immediately. (Whitewash II p. 154.) But, I don’t see exactly how, from who, or exactly when they got it. And I believe that making a mystery over when and from where the FBI got any copy of the Altgens photo is deliberately put into the record. Once it is on the AP wire they could have gotten it from that. Perhaps they just used a copy from a newspaper. They had evening newspapers back then. I’m inclined to believe that they got a copy from Elmer Lower with ABC, but even if so this may not have been the first one they got. Perhaps they got it from AP in New York City when the negatives went there. (Although there is controversy if the negative stayed in Dallas or was sent to NYC the night of the assassination.) They did get a copy from Mr. Shapiro, “The FBI solemnly borrowed the copy shown to it by Shapiro and made a copy of it.” (PW p. 67) But, that was on the 25th.

Weisberg believes the original negative remained in Dallas (Whitewash II p. 154). Richard Trask, in “Pictures of the Pain,” believes the original negatives were sent to AP HQ in New York on a commercial plane. (Pictures of the Pain p. 318) Trask writes that Altgens never saw prints made directly from his negatives before they were sent to New York. “Altgens had been so busy, that he had not gotten prints of his photos and had to request copies from New York, but apparently he never acquired a whole set of his pictures.” (Pictures of the Pain p. 318)

At no time prior to June of 1964 did the FBI go directly to the Dallas Associated Press office to obtain the original negative or ask questions of Mr. Altgens who worked there and lived in Dallas. As late as June 1, 1964 Hoover writes to Rankin that “efforts are being made to locate and interview him.” ( Whitewash II p. 155; this June 1, 1964 letter is reproduced on p. 200 of Photographic Whitewash.) For more than six months the FBI cannot find the Dallas Associated Press office? The FBI is not that incompetent. They were staying away from Altgens for some reason. Something else was going on. They "find" Altgens on June 2nd, 1964. See CE 1407.

We do know that the FBI had a copy by the 23rd because they showed it to Lovelady that night, and not two days later. How do we know this? We know it because of an article in The New York Herald Tribune dated May 24, 1964. This is CE 1408, (22H794) “The Picture With a Life of Its Own.”

It is written by Don Bonafede and apeared in The New York Herald Tribune, magazine section, May 24th, 1964. The whole article is not reproduced!

The Commission only reproduces the last two pages of the magazine article. (Whitewash II p. 187) They only reproduce a photocopy of page 9 and 10 of the magazine. Page 9, at the top, has a photo of Oswald with the shirt he had on the day he was arrested, then an enlargement of the Altgens photo highlighting “Doorway Man,” and then an even bigger enlargement showing the face of “Doorway Man.” So, The New York Herald Tribune did what the Warren Commission refused to do, namely give the reader appropriate photographic material to make a comparison. The article tells the story of how one guy, Jones Harris thought the man in the doorway was Oswald and how he tried to get a good copy of the photo. Once he got a good copy Harris tried to bring it to the attention of various officials.

I could go on, I'm working on an article to refute Fetzer's and Cincque's stuff, but think I've made the point I wanted to about Mr. Shapiro being the first to tell the FBI about this "Doorway Man" issue.

Joe

Joe,

On the matter of whether it could possibly be Oswald in the doorway. . . :

First I want to thank you for putting together that list of references to the Warren Commission Exhibits for the statements of Lovelady, Frazier, and Shelley.

I also want to thank Pat Speer for the reference that he provided, and also Gary Mack, for his informative email.

This morning, I have re-read and perused all of it--in other words, I have revisited that "rabbit hole." This is material I used to know like theb ack of my hand, but had really not examined in years, and it is all very important, because it is all "first day evidence."

My conclusions:

(1) I was wrong in positing the hypothesis that Billy Lovelady's presence at the Dallas Police Department is in any way suspicious. It now seems clear that a number of TSBD employees were brought to the police department simply because (a) the were Oswald's co-workers; (b ) one or more of them working on the 6th floor; and (c, in the case of Frazier), he had actually driven Oswald to work.

So there was nothing strange at all about Lovelady being brought there.

(2) There was nothing strange at all as to where Lovelady was sitting. As Gary pointed out to me in an email, on a chart of the building, it is referred to as an "interrogation room".

(3) Therefore (and in the spirit of "finally"): Lovelady was not the only one brought to the DPD. As I noted above, several people were brought there, because---as in "DUH"---the Dallas Police Department were the "first responders" and (again, "DUH") they were investigating the crime.

Hence, the notion that it is somehow "suspicious" that Lovelady was at the DPD is just plain wrong. As you (Joe) pointed out, Lovelady's own statement to the FBI says that he and others were brought to the DPD.

Because I was wrong, I am going to search out my oriignal post on this matter, and post a notice that I was wrong. (Because of Cinque's posts, which I will be much more skeptical about in the future, I falsely inferred that Lovelady was the "only" one brought to the DPD and secondly, that there was soomething truly suspicious about where Lovelady was seated (all of Cinque's "bowels" of the Police Department statements).

Other things I am reminded of: always (ALWAYS) go back to "first day evidence" to get a clear picture of the starting point in any issue. And take the time to examine the "first day evidence" yourself. Don't rely on what anyone else says about it. Read it yourself.

In this case, the "first day evidence"--that is, the original statements of Shelley, Lovelady himself, and Oswald-- makes very clear that there is no reason to believe that Oswald was on the front steps of the TSBD; and certainly no reason to subscribe to the proposition that Oswald was "with Shelley."

That's just plain ludicrous.

Here's what Lovelady says, in his 11/22/63 statement at the DPD:

“When the President came by Bill Shelley and I was standing on the steps in front of the building where I work.”

“After he had passed and was about 50 yards past us I heard three shots.There was a slight pause after the first shot then the next two was right close together.

“ I could not tell where the shots come from but sounded like they were across the street from us. However, that could have been caused by the echo.”

“After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers up to search the building. I did not see anyone around the building that was not supposed to be there. DPD affidavit (11/22); (CE 2003,p.59, or 24 WCH 226)

Here's what Shelley says:

"

I saw him periodically all morning with the exception of when we were on the sixth floor. At noon I started eating my lunch in my office and I went outside to see the President. After the Presidents accident (!!), I started checking around and I missed Lee. I asked Mr. Truly about him and He told me he had not seen him. I didn’t see Lee until the Police brought him into the Dallas Homicide Bureau.

(24 WCH 226; p. CE 2003, p60)

I re-checked the FBI interrogation reports of Oswald. At no point does Oswald ever say or even imply that he was standing out front watching the parade (or that he was with Shelley at the time the parade passed by). That all comes from Jim Fetzer's excited and highly inaccurate reading of Fritz' handwritten notes. Oswald says he was eating lunch (which I don't necessarily believe) and then he went to the coke machine, where the encounter with Baker occurred.

As far as I'm concerned, the hypothesis that Oswald was outside with Shelley is completely unwarranted and absurd. Its the result of Jim Fetzer having misread some lines of notes made by Captain Fritz (which I posted about yesterday), when he interrogated Oswald, and Oswald mentioned Shelley. Another point: If Oswald had said any such thing when interrogated by Fritz, it would have been in the FBI reports, because they were right there when Fritz interviewed Oswald.

This whole controversy is completely artificial, and results from Fetzer and Cinque's subjective interpretation of imagery that they claim to "see" in the Altgens photograph, but is not --in any way--supported by the record of the statements of people who were actually out front and watching the parade. Not by Shelley; not by Lovelady; not by anyone.

It is all subjective interpretation of photographs, coupled with the bizarre idea that, through photographica alteration, one person person has been made to appear in another person's clothing, etc etc. The result is an epistemological nightmare and, imho, just a silly circus of subjective interpretation.

Moreover, when shown the photograph(s) of Oswald being marched by Lovelady, Ralph Cinque then posited--falsely, in my opinion--that the photographic evidence was falsified,and that Lovelady had been "embedded" into those film frames. Absurd. There is no real evidence for any of that (either).

Further, and indicative of the rather inaccurate and excited way he went about the pursuit of this line of investigation, Ralph Cinque said that Lovelady was in the "bowels" of the DPD. ( More nonsense) and "what was he doing there? How did he get there?" he asked.

I'm sorry to say that, by not fully checking the record, I got drawn into this nonsense.

Lovelady was in an area clearly marked as an interrogation room and he was there because the DPD had brought in some of the fellow employees for interrogation--in Lovelady's case, he had actually been up on the sixth floor.

l cannot resist pointing, in connection with this absurd hypothesis, some of Fetzer's other beliefs", because they all go to the credibilty that should be accorded (or not accorded) to the various arcane and improbable hypotheses which he posits, and to which he dearly subscribes:

(a) That we didn't go to the moon --that all of that has been faked.

(b ) THat no planes hit the World Trade Center (it is all video fakery)

(c )That the buildings were all brought down by "controlled demolition"

(d) That a missile, not a plane, hit the Pentagon ; and later, that it was not a passenger jjet, but some other military aircraft

(e) That the debris outside the Pentagon was not from the aircraft that hit, but was rather "planted" there aftewards (a la bullet 399, only somehow deposited by a low flying aircraft. Sorry if I dont have all the details correct. I have trouble keeping track of all this nonsense).

(f) That the hijackers are still alive.

(g) That Isreal and its backers were really behind the 9/11 attacks

(h ) That Osama Bin Laden was actually killed in 2001, and the recent killing of Bin Laden was all a fake

etc etc etc and yadadada. . .

From recent postings, it is clear that Ralph Cinque is also a 9/11 truther, and a subscriber to one or more of these theses.

Anyway, Joe. . back to you and to reality.

I look forward to the piece you said you were working on.

One other point--a small one, but important: You asserted that Lovelady told reporter Dom Bonafede that he was visited by the FBI on Saturday night, and interviewed about his image in the Altgens photograph. Please note: there are NO FBI reports of any such interview. I'm not saying it didn't occur, but either (a ) the FBI deliberately omitted these "early Lovelady" interviws or (b ) it wasn't the FBI who interviewed him at that time or (c ) Lovelady is just plain mistaken.

I don't know which of the three it was. But in following your lead, I looked up CE 1403, and expected to find an FBI interview, and instead realized it was simply a Lovelady statement inside the Dom Bonafede 5/64 NY Herald Tribune article.

Well, as Winston Churchill used to say. . ."KBO". . .

This whole "Oswald was there . . . after all" business, imho, is a total side issue and has been an almost complete waste of time.

DSL

PS In answer to your question: the Sheriff's office is where "witnesses" were brought; the DPD (Harwood and Main) was the heaquarters for "the investigation". That's all I meant to imply. And again, many thanks for looking up all those citations. I know that took time to assemble.

David,

I admire your willingness to admit your mistakes. I wish everyone on this forum could keep an open mind, as you obviously have on this issue.

--Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

...

So which one do we think is Bill Shelley in the photograph linked below? Is it the guy opening the car door who Pat Speer pointed out a few days ago? Or is it the guy behind Arce?

http://1078567.sites...files/17068.jpg

Both are wearing ties and could be either the figure stood behind Lovelady in Altgens-6 or could be the guy shielding his eyes from the sun with his right arm...

Shelley was a WWII Vet. [William Weston suggests Shelley had an Intelligence Background during and after the War (The Spider's Web: The Texas School Book Depository and the Dallas Conspiracy).

Edit: Just checked. Shelley was only 37 in 1963, With that in mind he very well could be the guy behind Danny Arce...

2nd Edit: After reading some more reports, The Uniformed officer is probably Brown. The guy next to him in the plain clothes / suit reaching for the door is very likely Detective B. L. Senkel.

Williams, Arce, and Shelley are standing in line waiting to get into the car. The other officer wearing the helmet is likely a motorcycle officer helping out, ID unknown.

I totally agree, Richard.

Nice to know in my own mind what Bill Shelley looked like. After reviewing Altgens-6 I am 99% convinced that the figure wearing the shirt and tie who is stood behind Lovelady is Bill Shelley. Same jawline and body shape IMO...

http://upload.wikime...gens_blowup.jpg

http://1078567.sites...files/17068.jpg

Good work...

Looks like somebody filmed them getting into the police car. Notice the shadow of the photographer in the lower left corner of the photo.

--Tommy

[Richard Hocking]

...

Nice to know in my own mind what Bill Shelley looked like. ...

Yes, it is. I cannot remember seeing that specific picture before, so it was, for me, a timely find.

Unfortunately (as David Lifton earlier pointed out), none of the reports I read make any mention of Lovelady, Givens, or Dougherty being brought in, even though we know they must have been taken to the station within a few minutes of Shelley, Williams and Arce.

[Richard Hocking]

...

So which one do we think is Bill Shelley in the photograph linked below? Is it the guy opening the car door who Pat Speer pointed out a few days ago? Or is it the guy behind Arce?

http://1078567.sites...files/17068.jpg

Both are wearing ties and could be either the figure stood behind Lovelady in Altgens-6 or could be the guy shielding his eyes from the sun with his right arm...

Shelley was a WWII Vet. [William Weston suggests Shelley had an Intelligence Background during and after the War (The Spider's Web: The Texas School Book Depository and the Dallas Conspiracy).

Edit: Just checked. Shelley was only 37 in 1963, With that in mind he very well could be the guy behind Danny Arce...

2nd Edit: After reading some more reports, The Uniformed officer is probably Brown. The guy next to him in the plain clothes / suit reaching for the door is very likely Detective B. L. Senkel.

Williams, Arce, and Shelley are standing in line waiting to get into the car. The other officer wearing the helmet is likely a motorcycle officer helping out, ID unknown.

I totally agree, Richard.

Nice to know in my own mind what Bill Shelley looked like. After reviewing Altgens-6 I am 99% convinced that the figure wearing the shirt and tie who is stood behind Lovelady is Bill Shelley. Same jawline and body shape IMO...

http://upload.wikime...gens_blowup.jpg

http://1078567.sites...files/17068.jpg

Good work...

Looks like somebody filmed them getting into the police car. Notice the shadow of the photographer in the lower left corner of the photo.

--Tommy

There were several pictures and obviously at least one film of this group getting into the police car. Yet, with all the cameras and newsmen in Dealey Plaza around 1:30 pm, I have found no similar photos of Lovelady, Dougherty and Givens getting escorted into their ride to the station.

[Thomas Graves]

...

Nice to know in my own mind what Bill Shelley looked like. ...

Yes, it is. I cannot remember seeing that specific picture before, so it was, for me, a timely find.

Unfortunately (as David Lifton earlier pointed out), none of the reports I read make any mention of Lovelady, Givens, or Dougherty being brought in, even though we know they must have been taken to the station within a few minutes of Shelley, Williams and Arce.

Jack Dougherty is an interesting character, or should I say suspect? I believe he (or maybe even Billy Lovelady) is visible in a film, standing near the sixth floor window, talking with law enforcement types a few minutes after the assassination... My bet's on Dougherty. To my knowledge, there are no photos of him which are available to the public.

FWIW,

--Tommy

Edited May 25, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[Robin Unger]

This was my reply to Ralph Cinque

when he tried to claim yesterday that the opened door seen in this Chris Davidson GIF

opened up into Fritz's office.

In this Chris Davidson GIF we see that there are filing cabinets hard up against the wall as the door opens.

Also, this door opens outwards, Fritz's office door opens inward.

The same cop leading Oswald through the door as filmed from behind.

Cops standing outside the door

[Robin Unger]

My reply to Cinque continued:

Look at this image below Cinque

Do you see any filing cabinets with piles of paper and files stacked on top, sitting hard up against the right wall. ?

Original black and white photographic negative taken by a Dallas Times Herald staff photographer. The image shows Jack Ruby's sister Eva Grant seated inside the Homicide and Robbery Bureau at the Dallas Police Department headquarters on November 24, 1963. Jim Underwood of Channel 4, the local CBS affiliate known as KRLD-TV, is seated beside and in front of her; her friend Pauline Hall sits on her other side. A police officer's hat and left ear are visible in the foreground on the right.

[Robin Unger]

My reply to Cinque contunuied:

After my first sries of posts Cinque finally got it in his thick skull and posted this

I then posted this DPD map wich i recieved from Joe Backes

I then created this crop showing what i believed to be Oswalds movements from the elevator to the (squad room) where he was then paraded past Lovelady sitting down at the desk.

[Robin Unger]

My reply to Cinque continued:

passage way leading past Fritz's office into the squad room where Lovelady's desk was situated

Click on images to view FULL SIZE

Edited January 6, 2014 by Robin Unger