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Lifton and Morningster, nice but no cigar.


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1) Houston Chronicle Reporter Bo Byers (rode in White House Press Bus) - twice stated that the Presidential Limousine "almost came to a stop, a dead stop"; in fact, he has had nightmares about this. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade" article by Sheldon Inkol]

2) ABC Reporter Bob Clark (rode in the National Press Pool Car) - Reported on the air that the limousine stopped on Elm Street during the shooting [WFAA/ ABC, 11/22/63]

3) UPI White House Reporter Merriman Smith (rode in the same car as Clark, above) - "The President's car, possibly as much as 150 or 200 yards ahead, seemed to falter briefly..." [uPI story, 11/23/63, as reported in "Four Days", UPI, p. 32]

4) DPD motorcycle officer James W. Courson (one of two mid-motorcade motorcycles) - "The limousine came to a stop and Mrs. Kennedy was on the back. I noticed that as I came around the corner at Elm. Then the Secret Service agent [Clint Hill] helped push her back into the car, and the motorcade took off at a high rate of speed." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 129]

5) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Joe Dale (one of two rear mid-motorcade motorcycles) - "After the shots were fired, the whole motorcade came to a stop. I stood and looked through the plaza, noticed there was commotion, and saw people running around his [JFK's] car. It started to move, then it slowed again; that's when I saw Mrs. Kennedy coming back on the trunk and another guy [Clint Hill] pushing her back into the car." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 134]

6) Clemon Earl Johnson - "You could see it [the limo] speed up and then stop, then speed up, and you could see it stop while they [sic; Clint Hill] threw Mrs. Kennedy back up in the car. Then they just left out of there like a bat of the eye and were just gone." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 80]

7) Malcolm Summers - "Then there was somehesitation in the caravan itself, a momentary halt, to give the Secret Service man [Clint Hill] a chance to catch up with the car and jump on. It seems to me that it started back up by the time he got to the car…"["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 104]

8) NBC reporter Robert MacNeil (rode in White House Press Bus)---"The President's driver slammed on the brakes - after the third shot…" ["The Way We Were, 1963: The Year Kennedy Was Shot" by Robert MacNeil (1988), p. 193]

9) AP photographer Henry Burroughs (rode in Camera Car #2) - "…we heard the shots and the motorcade stopped." [letter, Burroughs to Palamara, dated 10/14/98]

10) DPD Earle Brown - "…The first I noticed the [JFK's] car was when it stopped..after it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped." [6 H 233]

11) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---"…At that time [immediately before the head shot] the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say 'Get going.' I felt blood hit me in the face and the Presidential car stopped almost immediately after that." [6 H 294; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71.

6/26/95 videotaped interview with Mark Oakes & Ian Griggs: "That guy (Greer) slowed down, maybe his orders was to slow down…slowed down almost to a stop." Like Posner, Hargis feels Greer gave Oswald the chance to kill Kennedy.]

12) DPD D.V. Harkness - "…I saw the first shot and the President's car slow[ed] down to almost a stop…I heard the first shot and saw the President's car almost come to a stop and some of the agents [were] piling on the car." [6 H 309]

13) DPD James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---stated that the Presidential limousine stopped momentarily after the first shot (according to the testimony of Mark Lane; corroborated by the testimony of fellow DPD motorycle officer Marion Baker: Chaney told him that "…at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped…Now I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely." [2 H 44-45 (Lane)---refering to Chaney's statement as reported in the "Houston Chronicle" dated 11/24/63; 3 H 266 (Baker)]

14) DPD motorcycle officer B.J. Martin (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) - saw JFK's car stop "…just for a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

15) DPD motorcycle officer Douglas L. Jackson (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) - stated "…that the car just all but stopped…just a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

16) Texas Highway Patrolman Joe Henry Rich (drove LBJ's car) - stated that "…the motorcade came to a stop momentarily." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

17) DPD J.W. Foster - stated that "…immediately after President Kennedy was struck…the car in which he was riding pulled to the curb." [CD 897, pp. 20, 21; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

18) Secret Service Agent Sam Kinney (driver of the follow-up car behind JFK's limo)---indicates, via his report to Chief Rowley, that Greer hit the gas after the fatal head shot to JFK and after the President's slump to the left toward Jackie. [18 H 731-732]. From the HSCA's 2/26/78 interview of Kinney: "He also remarked that 'when Greer (the driver of the Presidential limousine) looked back, his foot must have come off the accelerator'…Kinney observed that at the time of the first shot, the speed of the motorcade was '3 to 5 miles an hour.'" [RIF#180-10078-10493; author's interviews with Kinney, 1992-1994]

19) Secret Service Agent Clint Hill (follow-up car, rear of limo)---"…I jumped from the follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile. I heard a second firecracker-type noise…SA Greer had, as I jumped onto the Presidential automobile, accelerated the Presidential automobile forward." [18 H 742; Nix film; "The Secret Service" and "Inside The Secret Service" videos from 1995]

20) Secret Service Agent John Ready (follow-up car) - "…I heard what sounded like fire crackers going off from my post on the right front running board. The President's car slowed…" [18 H 750]

21) Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett (follow-up car) - after the fatal head shot "the President's car immediately kicked into high gear." [18 H 760; 24 H 541-542]. During his 1/30/78 HSCA interview, Bennett said the follow-up car was moving at "10-12 m.p.h.", an indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF#180-10082-10452]

22) Secret Service Agent "Lem" Johns (V.P. follow-up car) - "I felt that if there was danger [it was] due to the slow speed of the automobile." [18 H 774]. During his 8/8/78 HSCA interview, Johns said that "Our car was moving very slowly", a further indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF# 180-10074-10079; Altgens photo]

23) Secret Service Agent Winston Lawson (rode in the lead car) - "…I think it [the lead car on Elm Street] was a little further ahead [of JFK's limo] than it had been in the motorcade, because when I looked back we were further ahead." [4 H 352], an indication of the lag in the limo during the assassination.

24) Secret Service Agent William "Tim" McIntyre (follow-up car) - "He stated that Greer, driver of the Presidential limousine, accelerated after the third shot." [RIF#180-10082-10454: 1/31/78 HSCA interview]

25) Mrs. Earle "Dearie" Cabell (rode in the Mayor's car) - the motorcade "stopped dead still when the noise of the shot was heard." [7 H 487; "Accessories After the Fact" by Sylvia Meagher (1967), p. 4; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

26) Phil Willis - "…The [Presidential] party had come to a temporary halt before proceeding on to the underpass." [7 H 497; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 24]

27) Mrs. Phil Willis - Marilyn - after the fatal head shot, "she stated the Presidential limousine paused momentarily and then sped away under the Triple Underpass." [FBI report dated 6/19/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 179]

28) Mrs. John Connally - Nellie (rode in JFK's limo) - JFK's car did not accelerate until after the fatal head shot. [4 H 147; WR 50; "Best Evidence" by David Lifton (1988), p. 122]

29) Texas Governor John Connally (rode in JFK's limo and himself a victim of the assassination) - "…After the third shot, I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, 'Bill, get out of line.' And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said 'Get us to a hospital quick'…at about this time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of line." [4 H 133; WR50; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 13];

30) Dallas Morning News reporter Robert Baskin (rode in the National Press Pool Car) - stated that "…the motorcade ground to a halt." ["Dallas Morning News", 11/23/63, p. 2; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

31) Dallas Morning News reporter Mary Woodward (Pillsworth) - "…Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt."; she saw the President's car come to a halt after the first shot. Then, after hearing two more shots, close together, the car sped up. [2 H 43 (Lane); "Dallas Morning News," 11/23/63; 24 H 520; "The Men Who Killed Kennedy," 1988]. She spoke forcefully about the car almost coming to a stop and the lack of proper reaction by the Secret Service in 1993. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade" article by Sheldon Inkol]

32) AP photographer James Altgens - "He said the President's car was proceeding at about ten miles per hour at the time [of the shooting]…Altgens stated the driver of the Presidential limousine apparently realized what had happened and speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [FBI report dated 6/5/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 203] "The car's driver realized what had happened and almost if by reflex speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [AP dispatch, 11/22/63; "Cover-Up" by Stewart Galanor (1998), Document 28]

33) Alan Smith - "…the car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the forehead…the car went about five feet and stopped." ["Chicago Tribune," 11/23/63, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

34) Mrs. Ruth M. Smith - confirmed that the Presidential limousine had come to a stop. [CD 206, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

35) TSBD Supervisor Roy Truly - after the first shot "…I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in the area…[it stopped] for a second or two or something like that…I just saw it stop." [3 H 221, 266]

36) L.P. Terry - "…The parade stopped right in front of the building [TSBD]." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 26]

37) Ochus V. Campbell - after hearing shots, "he then observed the car bearing President Kennedy to slow down, a near stop, and a motorcycle policeman rushed up. Immediately following this, he observed the car rush away from the scene." [22 H 845]

38) Peggy Joyce Hawkins - she was on the front steps of the TSBD and "…estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

39) Billy Lovelady - "I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped." [22 H 662];

40) An unnamed witness - from his vantage point in the courthouse building, stated that, "The cavalcade stopped there and there was bedlam." ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

41) Postal Inspector Harry Holmes (from the Post Office Annex, while viewing through binoculars) - "…The car almost came to a stop, and Mrs. Kennedy pulled loose of him and crawled out over the turtleback of this Presidential car." [7 H 291]. He noticed the car pull to a halt, and Holmes thought: "They are dodging something being thrown." ["The Day Kennedy Was Shot" by Jim Bishop (1967), p. 176]

42) Peggy Burney - she stated that JFK's car had come to a stop. ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97.

Interestingly, during the 11/20/93 C-SPAN "Journalists Remember" conference, Vivian Castleberry of the Dallas Times Herald made the claim that her first cousin, Peggy Burney, was Abraham Zapruder's assistant "and was next to him when he shot his famous film. She called and said, 'Vivian, today I saw the President die.'"! See Sheldon Inkol's article on this conference in the January 1994 "Fourth Decade"]

43) David Broeder - "…The President's car paused momentarily, then on orders from a Secret Service agent, spurted ahead." ["Washington Evening Star", 11/23/63, p. 8]

44) Sam Holland - stated that the Presidential limousine slowed down on Elm Street. [taped interview with Holland conducted in April, 1965]

45) Maurice Orr - noted that the motorcade stopped. [Arch Kimbrough, Mary Ferrell, and Sue Fitch, "Chronology," unpublished manuscript; see also "Conspiracy" by Anthony Summers, pages 20 & 23]

46) Mrs. Herman (Billy P.) Clay - "…When I heard the second and third shots I knew someone was shooting at the President. I did not know if the President had been hit, but I knew something was wrong. At this point the car President Kenedy was in slowed and I, along with others, moved toward the President's car. As we neared the car it sped off." [22 H 641]

47) Mrs. Rose Clark - "…She noted that the President's automobile came almost to a halt following the three shots, before it picked up speed and drove away." [24 H 533]

48) Hugh Betzner - "…I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped…then the President's car sped on under the underpass." [19 H 467]

49) John Chism - after the shots he saw "the motorcade beginning to speed up." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 29]

50) Bill Newman - after the fatal head shot "the car momentarily stopped and the driver seemed to have a radio or phone up to his ear and he seemed to be waiting on some word. Some Secret Service men reached into their car and came out with some sort of machine gun. Then the cars roared off…"; "I've maintained that they stopped. I still say they did. It was only a momentary stop, but…" ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 70; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 96]

"I believe Kennedy's car came to a full stop after the final shot." ["JFK: Breaking The Silence" by Bill Sloan (1993), p. 169]

"…I believe it was the passenger in the front seat [Roy Kellerman]---there were two men in the front seat---had a telephone or something to his ear and the car momentarily stopped. Now everywhere that you read about it, you don't read anything about the car stopping. And when I say "stopped" I mean very momentarily, like they hit the brakes and just a few seconds passed and then they floorboarded [sic] and accelerated on." [11/20/97 videotaped interview with Bill Law, Mark Row, & Ian Griggs, as transcribed in "November Patriots" by Connie Kritzberg & Larry Hancock (1998), p. 362]

"One of the two men in the front seat of the car had a telephone in his hand, and as I was looking back at the car covering my son, I can remember seeing the tail lights of the car, and just for a moment they hesitated and stopped, and then they floorboarded [sic] the car and shot off." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 96]

51) Charles Brehm - "Brehm expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move some 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot…After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of sight." [22 H 837-838]

52) Mary Moorman - "She recalls that the President's automobile was moving at the time she took the second picture, and when she heard the shots, and has the impression that the car either stopped momentarily or hesistated and then drove off in a hurry." [22 H 838-839]

53) Jean Hill - "…The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out and I would say it [JFK's limo] was just approximately, if not - it couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had been. It [JFK's limo] was just almost stunned." [6 H 208-209; Hill's testimony on this matter was dramatized in the Oliver Stone movie "JFK" (1991): "The driver had stopped - I don't know what was wrong with that driver." See also "JFK: The Book of the Film" (1992), p. 122. Therein is referenced a March 1991 conversation with Jean Hill.]

54) James Leon Simmons - "…The car stopped or almost stopped." [2/15/69 Clay Shaw trial testimony; "Forgive My Grief Vol. III" by Penn Jones, p. 53; "High Treason" by Groden & Livingstone (1990 Berkley Edition), p. 22]

55) Norman Similas - "…The Presidential limousine had passed me and slowed down slightly." ["Liberty" Magazine, 7/15/64, p. 13; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 233];

56) Presidential Aide Ken O'Donnell (rode in the follow-up car) - "…If the Secret Service men in the front had reacted quicker to the first two shots at the President's car, if the driver had stepped on the gas before instead of after the fatal third shot was fired, would President Kennedy be alive today? [as quoted in Marrs' "Crossfire," p. 248, based off a passage from O'Donnell & Powers' book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye"]. On page 40 of O'Donnell's book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye," the aide reports that "Greer had been remorseful all day, feeling that he could have saved President Kenendy's life by swerving the car or speeding suddenly after the first shots." Indeed, William E. Sale, an airman first class aircraft mechanic assigned to Carswell AFB and who was stationed at Love Field before, during, and after the assassination, stated that "when the agent who was driving JFK's car came back to Air Force One he was as white as a ghost and had to be helped back to the plane *[undated Sale letter, provided to the author by Martin Shackelford]

57) Presidential aide Dave Powers (rode in the follow-up car) - "…At that time we were traveling very slowly…At about the time of the third shot, the President's car accelerated sharply." [7 H 473-475]. On 11/22/88, Powers was interviewed by CBS' Charles Kuralt. Powers remarked about the remorse Greer felt about not speeding up in time to save JFK"s life and agreed with Kuralt that, if Greer had sped up BEFORE the fatal head shot instead of afterwards, JFK might still be alive today [CBS, 11/22/88---this is a very dramatic and compelling short interview]. If that weren't enough, the ARRB's Tom Samoluk told me that, during the course of an interview he conducted in 1996 in which the Board was in the process of obtaining Powers' film, Powers said that he agreed with my take on the Secret Service!

58) Texas Senator Ralph Yarborough (rode in LBJ's car) - "…When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop)…After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the Parkland Hospital."; "…The cars all stopped. I put in there [his affidavit], 'I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but for the protection of future Presidents, they [the Secret Service] should be trained to take off when a shot is fired." [7 H 439-440; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 482; see also "The Men Who Killed Kennedy," 1988: "The Secret Service in the car in front of us kind of casually looked around and were rather slow to react."]

59) First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy (rode in the Presidential limousine) - "We could see a tunnel in front of us. Everything was really slow then…[immediately after shooting] And just being down in the car with his head in my lap. And it just seemed an eternity…And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital," or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat…We were really slowing turning the corner [Houston&Elm]…I remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off…those poor men in the front…" [5 H 179-181] Mary Gallagher reported in her book: "She mentioned one Secret Service man who had not acted during the crucial moment, and said bitterly to me, 'He might just as well have been Miss Shaw!'" ["My Life With Jacqueline Kennedy" by Mary Barelli Gallagher (1969), p. 342---Secret Service Agent Marty Venker and Jackie biographer C. David Heymann confirm that this unnamed agent was indeed Greer ("Confessions of an Ex-Secret Service Agent", p. 25; "A Woman Called Jackie", p. 401)] Jackie also told Gallagher that "You should get yourself a good driver so that nothing ever happens to you" [ibid., p. 351]

I have marked in red those witnesses that thought the limo only slowed or the said the parade or motorcade came to a stop. (not the limo)

They are describing what we see in the photographic evidence and in this gif animation.

Some say it stopped and some say it slowed.

The limo slowed, the motorcycles came to a complete stop and the motorcade behind the SS car may have come to a complete stop.

zlimobrake4bikes183nisa.gif

Edited by Mike Rago
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The basic problem with your entire analysis, Mr. Rago, is that critical photographic evidence in this case has been forged

You really have got to stop saying that the critical photographic evidence has been forged. I see now you are saying critical evidence, I suppose because of the question I asked Mr. Gallup...how does he know that Toni Foster was running? (He did not answer that yet).

I asked you before if you think that the image of bone being ejected from the skull in Zapruder frame 313 is forged.

Which critical photographic evidence has been forged? The Moorman photo was that forged. That photo was published 2 days after the assassination.

Be specific , which critical evidence has been forged?

NEWBIES is what this case desperately needs Mr. Lifton. They have to correct the errors that the first and second generation researchers made. All they are asking is that the first generation researchers remain accessible and open.

Forgetting about you bizarre theories, which is different problem , there too many myths that have been propagated over the years.

A fatal flaw(there are many) in your argument, sir, is your requirement that the photographic evidence has to have been altered to justify your theory. That is not a winning argument.

How do you know that Toni Foster was running?

Toni Foster is known as the " running woman" because in the Z-film she is jogging toward the limosine. This is her standard title among researchers just to identify her. The issue is not, was she running, jogging, or walking quickly, but what did she see, and tell Debra Conway ? See the earlier post.

By the way, Mike, have you carefully read Best Evidence? I mean CAREFULLY. Because you haven't earned the right to criticize an author unless you understand him, and to understand Lifton you really need to read the book. It's very readable as it is extremely well-written, and , as sort of a historical narrative, has value that way as well.

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1) Houston Chronicle Reporter Bo Byers (rode in White House Press Bus) - twice stated that the Presidential Limousine "almost came to a stop, a dead stop"; in fact, he has had nightmares about this. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade" article by Sheldon Inkol]

2) ABC Reporter Bob Clark (rode in the National Press Pool Car) - Reported on the air that the limousine stopped on Elm Street during the shooting [WFAA/ ABC, 11/22/63]

3) UPI White House Reporter Merriman Smith (rode in the same car as Clark, above) - "The President's car, possibly as much as 150 or 200 yards ahead, seemed to falter briefly..." [uPI story, 11/23/63, as reported in "Four Days", UPI, p. 32]

4) DPD motorcycle officer James W. Courson (one of two mid-motorcade motorcycles) - "The limousine came to a stop and Mrs. Kennedy was on the back. I noticed that as I came around the corner at Elm. Then the Secret Service agent [Clint Hill] helped push her back into the car, and the motorcade took off at a high rate of speed." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 129]

5) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Joe Dale (one of two rear mid-motorcade motorcycles) - "After the shots were fired, the whole motorcade came to a stop. I stood and looked through the plaza, noticed there was commotion, and saw people running around his [JFK's] car. It started to move, then it slowed again; that's when I saw Mrs. Kennedy coming back on the trunk and another guy [Clint Hill] pushing her back into the car." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 134]

6) Clemon Earl Johnson - "You could see it [the limo] speed up and then stop, then speed up, and you could see it stop while they [sic; Clint Hill] threw Mrs. Kennedy back up in the car. Then they just left out of there like a bat of the eye and were just gone." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 80]

7) Malcolm Summers - "Then there was somehesitation in the caravan itself, a momentary halt, to give the Secret Service man [Clint Hill] a chance to catch up with the car and jump on. It seems to me that it started back up by the time he got to the car…"["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 104]

8) NBC reporter Robert MacNeil (rode in White House Press Bus)---"The President's driver slammed on the brakes - after the third shot…" ["The Way We Were, 1963: The Year Kennedy Was Shot" by Robert MacNeil (1988), p. 193]

9) AP photographer Henry Burroughs (rode in Camera Car #2) - "…we heard the shots and the motorcade stopped." [letter, Burroughs to Palamara, dated 10/14/98]

10) DPD Earle Brown - "…The first I noticed the [JFK's] car was when it stopped..after it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped." [6 H 233]

11) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---"…At that time [immediately before the head shot] the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say 'Get going.' I felt blood hit me in the face and the Presidential car stopped almost immediately after that." [6 H 294; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71.

6/26/95 videotaped interview with Mark Oakes & Ian Griggs: "That guy (Greer) slowed down, maybe his orders was to slow down…slowed down almost to a stop." Like Posner, Hargis feels Greer gave Oswald the chance to kill Kennedy.]

12) DPD D.V. Harkness - "…I saw the first shot and the President's car slow[ed] down to almost a stop…I heard the first shot and saw the President's car almost come to a stop and some of the agents [were] piling on the car." [6 H 309]

13) DPD James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---stated that the Presidential limousine stopped momentarily after the first shot (according to the testimony of Mark Lane; corroborated by the testimony of fellow DPD motorycle officer Marion Baker: Chaney told him that "…at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped…Now I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely." [2 H 44-45 (Lane)---refering to Chaney's statement as reported in the "Houston Chronicle" dated 11/24/63; 3 H 266 (Baker)]

14) DPD motorcycle officer B.J. Martin (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) - saw JFK's car stop "…just for a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

15) DPD motorcycle officer Douglas L. Jackson (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) - stated "…that the car just all but stopped…just a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

16) Texas Highway Patrolman Joe Henry Rich (drove LBJ's car) - stated that "…the motorcade came to a stop momentarily." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

17) DPD J.W. Foster - stated that "…immediately after President Kennedy was struck…the car in which he was riding pulled to the curb." [CD 897, pp. 20, 21; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

18) Secret Service Agent Sam Kinney (driver of the follow-up car behind JFK's limo)---indicates, via his report to Chief Rowley, that Greer hit the gas after the fatal head shot to JFK and after the President's slump to the left toward Jackie. [18 H 731-732]. From the HSCA's 2/26/78 interview of Kinney: "He also remarked that 'when Greer (the driver of the Presidential limousine) looked back, his foot must have come off the accelerator'…Kinney observed that at the time of the first shot, the speed of the motorcade was '3 to 5 miles an hour.'" [RIF#180-10078-10493; author's interviews with Kinney, 1992-1994]

19) Secret Service Agent Clint Hill (follow-up car, rear of limo)---"…I jumped from the follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile. I heard a second firecracker-type noise…SA Greer had, as I jumped onto the Presidential automobile, accelerated the Presidential automobile forward." [18 H 742; Nix film; "The Secret Service" and "Inside The Secret Service" videos from 1995]

20) Secret Service Agent John Ready (follow-up car) - "…I heard what sounded like fire crackers going off from my post on the right front running board. The President's car slowed…" [18 H 750]

21) Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett (follow-up car) - after the fatal head shot "the President's car immediately kicked into high gear." [18 H 760; 24 H 541-542]. During his 1/30/78 HSCA interview, Bennett said the follow-up car was moving at "10-12 m.p.h.", an indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF#180-10082-10452]

22) Secret Service Agent "Lem" Johns (V.P. follow-up car) - "I felt that if there was danger [it was] due to the slow speed of the automobile." [18 H 774]. During his 8/8/78 HSCA interview, Johns said that "Our car was moving very slowly", a further indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF# 180-10074-10079; Altgens photo]

23) Secret Service Agent Winston Lawson (rode in the lead car) - "…I think it [the lead car on Elm Street] was a little further ahead [of JFK's limo] than it had been in the motorcade, because when I looked back we were further ahead." [4 H 352], an indication of the lag in the limo during the assassination.

24) Secret Service Agent William "Tim" McIntyre (follow-up car) - "He stated that Greer, driver of the Presidential limousine, accelerated after the third shot." [RIF#180-10082-10454: 1/31/78 HSCA interview]

25) Mrs. Earle "Dearie" Cabell (rode in the Mayor's car) - the motorcade "stopped dead still when the noise of the shot was heard." [7 H 487; "Accessories After the Fact" by Sylvia Meagher (1967), p. 4; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

26) Phil Willis - "…The [Presidential] party had come to a temporary halt before proceeding on to the underpass." [7 H 497; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 24]

27) Mrs. Phil Willis - Marilyn - after the fatal head shot, "she stated the Presidential limousine paused momentarily and then sped away under the Triple Underpass." [FBI report dated 6/19/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 179]

28) Mrs. John Connally - Nellie (rode in JFK's limo) - JFK's car did not accelerate until after the fatal head shot. [4 H 147; WR 50; "Best Evidence" by David Lifton (1988), p. 122]

29) Texas Governor John Connally (rode in JFK's limo and himself a victim of the assassination) - "…After the third shot, I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, 'Bill, get out of line.' And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said 'Get us to a hospital quick'…at about this time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of line." [4 H 133; WR50; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 13];

30) Dallas Morning News reporter Robert Baskin (rode in the National Press Pool Car) - stated that "…the motorcade ground to a halt." ["Dallas Morning News", 11/23/63, p. 2; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

31) Dallas Morning News reporter Mary Woodward (Pillsworth) - "…Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt."; she saw the President's car come to a halt after the first shot. Then, after hearing two more shots, close together, the car sped up. [2 H 43 (Lane); "Dallas Morning News," 11/23/63; 24 H 520; "The Men Who Killed Kennedy," 1988]. She spoke forcefully about the car almost coming to a stop and the lack of proper reaction by the Secret Service in 1993. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade" article by Sheldon Inkol]

32) AP photographer James Altgens - "He said the President's car was proceeding at about ten miles per hour at the time [of the shooting]…Altgens stated the driver of the Presidential limousine apparently realized what had happened and speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [FBI report dated 6/5/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 203] "The car's driver realized what had happened and almost if by reflex speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [AP dispatch, 11/22/63; "Cover-Up" by Stewart Galanor (1998), Document 28]

33) Alan Smith - "…the car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the forehead…the car went about five feet and stopped." ["Chicago Tribune," 11/23/63, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

34) Mrs. Ruth M. Smith - confirmed that the Presidential limousine had come to a stop. [CD 206, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

35) TSBD Supervisor Roy Truly - after the first shot "…I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in the area…[it stopped] for a second or two or something like that…I just saw it stop." [3 H 221, 266]

36) L.P. Terry - "…The parade stopped right in front of the building [TSBD]." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 26]

37) Ochus V. Campbell - after hearing shots, "he then observed the car bearing President Kennedy to slow down, a near stop, and a motorcycle policeman rushed up. Immediately following this, he observed the car rush away from the scene." [22 H 845]

38) Peggy Joyce Hawkins - she was on the front steps of the TSBD and "…estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

39) Billy Lovelady - "I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped." [22 H 662];

40) An unnamed witness - from his vantage point in the courthouse building, stated that, "The cavalcade stopped there and there was bedlam." ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

41) Postal Inspector Harry Holmes (from the Post Office Annex, while viewing through binoculars) - "…The car almost came to a stop, and Mrs. Kennedy pulled loose of him and crawled out over the turtleback of this Presidential car." [7 H 291]. He noticed the car pull to a halt, and Holmes thought: "They are dodging something being thrown." ["The Day Kennedy Was Shot" by Jim Bishop (1967), p. 176]

42) Peggy Burney - she stated that JFK's car had come to a stop. ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97.

Interestingly, during the 11/20/93 C-SPAN "Journalists Remember" conference, Vivian Castleberry of the Dallas Times Herald made the claim that her first cousin, Peggy Burney, was Abraham Zapruder's assistant "and was next to him when he shot his famous film. She called and said, 'Vivian, today I saw the President die.'"! See Sheldon Inkol's article on this conference in the January 1994 "Fourth Decade"]

43) David Broeder - "…The President's car paused momentarily, then on orders from a Secret Service agent, spurted ahead." ["Washington Evening Star", 11/23/63, p. 8]

44) Sam Holland - stated that the Presidential limousine slowed down on Elm Street. [taped interview with Holland conducted in April, 1965]

45) Maurice Orr - noted that the motorcade stopped. [Arch Kimbrough, Mary Ferrell, and Sue Fitch, "Chronology," unpublished manuscript; see also "Conspiracy" by Anthony Summers, pages 20 & 23]

46) Mrs. Herman (Billy P.) Clay - "…When I heard the second and third shots I knew someone was shooting at the President. I did not know if the President had been hit, but I knew something was wrong. At this point the car President Kenedy was in slowed and I, along with others, moved toward the President's car. As we neared the car it sped off." [22 H 641]

47) Mrs. Rose Clark - "…She noted that the President's automobile came almost to a halt following the three shots, before it picked up speed and drove away." [24 H 533]

48) Hugh Betzner - "…I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped…then the President's car sped on under the underpass." [19 H 467]

49) John Chism - after the shots he saw "the motorcade beginning to speed up." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 29]

50) Bill Newman - after the fatal head shot "the car momentarily stopped and the driver seemed to have a radio or phone up to his ear and he seemed to be waiting on some word. Some Secret Service men reached into their car and came out with some sort of machine gun. Then the cars roared off…"; "I've maintained that they stopped. I still say they did. It was only a momentary stop, but…" ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 70; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 96]

"I believe Kennedy's car came to a full stop after the final shot." ["JFK: Breaking The Silence" by Bill Sloan (1993), p. 169]

"…I believe it was the passenger in the front seat [Roy Kellerman]---there were two men in the front seat---had a telephone or something to his ear and the car momentarily stopped. Now everywhere that you read about it, you don't read anything about the car stopping. And when I say "stopped" I mean very momentarily, like they hit the brakes and just a few seconds passed and then they floorboarded [sic] and accelerated on." [11/20/97 videotaped interview with Bill Law, Mark Row, & Ian Griggs, as transcribed in "November Patriots" by Connie Kritzberg & Larry Hancock (1998), p. 362]

"One of the two men in the front seat of the car had a telephone in his hand, and as I was looking back at the car covering my son, I can remember seeing the tail lights of the car, and just for a moment they hesitated and stopped, and then they floorboarded [sic] the car and shot off." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 96]

51) Charles Brehm - "Brehm expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move some 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot…After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of sight." [22 H 837-838]

52) Mary Moorman - "She recalls that the President's automobile was moving at the time she took the second picture, and when she heard the shots, and has the impression that the car either stopped momentarily or hesistated and then drove off in a hurry." [22 H 838-839]

53) Jean Hill - "…The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out and I would say it [JFK's limo] was just approximately, if not - it couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had been. It [JFK's limo] was just almost stunned." [6 H 208-209; Hill's testimony on this matter was dramatized in the Oliver Stone movie "JFK" (1991): "The driver had stopped - I don't know what was wrong with that driver." See also "JFK: The Book of the Film" (1992), p. 122. Therein is referenced a March 1991 conversation with Jean Hill.]

54) James Leon Simmons - "…The car stopped or almost stopped." [2/15/69 Clay Shaw trial testimony; "Forgive My Grief Vol. III" by Penn Jones, p. 53; "High Treason" by Groden & Livingstone (1990 Berkley Edition), p. 22]

55) Norman Similas - "…The Presidential limousine had passed me and slowed down slightly." ["Liberty" Magazine, 7/15/64, p. 13; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 233];

56) Presidential Aide Ken O'Donnell (rode in the follow-up car) - "…If the Secret Service men in the front had reacted quicker to the first two shots at the President's car, if the driver had stepped on the gas before instead of after the fatal third shot was fired, would President Kennedy be alive today? [as quoted in Marrs' "Crossfire," p. 248, based off a passage from O'Donnell & Powers' book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye"]. On page 40 of O'Donnell's book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye," the aide reports that "Greer had been remorseful all day, feeling that he could have saved President Kenendy's life by swerving the car or speeding suddenly after the first shots." Indeed, William E. Sale, an airman first class aircraft mechanic assigned to Carswell AFB and who was stationed at Love Field before, during, and after the assassination, stated that "when the agent who was driving JFK's car came back to Air Force One he was as white as a ghost and had to be helped back to the plane *[undated Sale letter, provided to the author by Martin Shackelford]

57) Presidential aide Dave Powers (rode in the follow-up car) - "…At that time we were traveling very slowly…At about the time of the third shot, the President's car accelerated sharply." [7 H 473-475]. On 11/22/88, Powers was interviewed by CBS' Charles Kuralt. Powers remarked about the remorse Greer felt about not speeding up in time to save JFK"s life and agreed with Kuralt that, if Greer had sped up BEFORE the fatal head shot instead of afterwards, JFK might still be alive today [CBS, 11/22/88---this is a very dramatic and compelling short interview]. If that weren't enough, the ARRB's Tom Samoluk told me that, during the course of an interview he conducted in 1996 in which the Board was in the process of obtaining Powers' film, Powers said that he agreed with my take on the Secret Service!

58) Texas Senator Ralph Yarborough (rode in LBJ's car) - "…When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop)…After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the Parkland Hospital."; "…The cars all stopped. I put in there [his affidavit], 'I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but for the protection of future Presidents, they [the Secret Service] should be trained to take off when a shot is fired." [7 H 439-440; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 482; see also "The Men Who Killed Kennedy," 1988: "The Secret Service in the car in front of us kind of casually looked around and were rather slow to react."]

59) First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy (rode in the Presidential limousine) - "We could see a tunnel in front of us. Everything was really slow then…[immediately after shooting] And just being down in the car with his head in my lap. And it just seemed an eternity…And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital," or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat…We were really slowing turning the corner [Houston&Elm]…I remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off…those poor men in the front…" [5 H 179-181] Mary Gallagher reported in her book: "She mentioned one Secret Service man who had not acted during the crucial moment, and said bitterly to me, 'He might just as well have been Miss Shaw!'" ["My Life With Jacqueline Kennedy" by Mary Barelli Gallagher (1969), p. 342---Secret Service Agent Marty Venker and Jackie biographer C. David Heymann confirm that this unnamed agent was indeed Greer ("Confessions of an Ex-Secret Service Agent", p. 25; "A Woman Called Jackie", p. 401)] Jackie also told Gallagher that "You should get yourself a good driver so that nothing ever happens to you" [ibid., p. 351]

I have marked in red those witnesses that thought the limo only slowed or the said the parade or motorcade came to a stop. (not the limo)

They are describing what we see in the photographic evidence and in this gif animation.

Some say it stopped and some say it slowed.

The limo slowed, the motorcycles came to a complete stop and the motorcade behind the SS car may have come to a complete stop.

zlimobrake4bikes183nisa.gif

Mike, the witnesses who said it came almost to a stop contradict the Z-film as well. The extant film shows some slowing but nothing which could be described as "almost to a stop."

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Toni Foster is known as the " running woman" because in the Z-film she is jogging toward the limosine. This is her standard title among researchers just to identify her. The issue is not, was she running, jogging, or walking quickly, but what did she see, and tell Debra Conway ? See the earlier post.

By the way, Mike, have you carefully read Best Evidence? I mean CAREFULLY. Because you haven't earned the right to criticize an author unless you understand him, and to understand Lifton you really need to read the book. It's very readable as it is extremely well-written, and , as sort of a historical narrative, has value that way as well.

So you accept it as true when the Zapruder film shows her running. You just pick and choose which things you want to believe and not believe from the Zapruder film.

I am not being critical of the man David Lifton. I am being critical of his theories as I have come to know them on this forum.

I consider the "myth" that the limo stopped and the Zapruder film was edited to remove the stop has have been "busted".

Edited by Mike Rago
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I am not being critical of the man David Lifton. I am being critical of his theories as I have come to know them on this forum.

Mike,

Forming your opinions from what you have found out on this, or any other forum, is no way to understand - let alone criticise - any researcher's work and ideas. Opinions generated on the Internet tend to be watered down versions of the original. If you want to be critical of David Lifton, at least do him the curtesy of reading his work. That way you might at least understand what it is he is saying.

James

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I am not being critical of the man David Lifton. I am being critical of his theories as I have come to know them on this forum.

Mike,

Forming your opinions from what you have found out on this, or any other forum, is no way to understand - let alone criticise - any researcher's work and ideas. Opinions generated on the Internet tend to be watered down versions of the original. If you want to be critical of David Lifton, at least do him the curtesy of reading his work. That way you might at least understand what it is he is saying.

James

Again, I am not critical of David Lifton. I think he is a very nice man. I am critical of his theories that he has stated in the forum. That is all.

I am happy that he is willing to engage with us in the forum.

My theory of the case is based on the validity of the photographic evidence. His theory of the case requires that photographic evidence to have been fabricated.

As I have stated before, I have read very few books on the JFK assassination. I did not want to be influenced by any opinions of the case stated by other authors. I wanted to study the evidence and come up with my own opinion. I was very surprised to find that there was a book out there that had a somewhat similar interpretation.( I have not read that book either)

When you read my opinion you can be sure it is my opinion, uninfluenced by the opinion of the author of any other book.

This approach has worked well. I have been able to identify several important errors. The severe cropping of the Towner #3 photo and the incorrect chronological ordering of that photo are two important examples.

Edited by Mike Rago
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We see jher but don't we to some extent forget what she can see?

She is not running towards the limo. She was, but she doesn't deviate from her path.

By the time things are seen consider her relative position and the movement of the outer left MC. If she is looking at the limo. ie JFK. What does it look like to her. In a relative sense the limo, or JFK, is near stationary. She moves, her head moves, vehicles move (against a pretty bland backdrop). Does that mean that from her perspective things are exactly as she describes them and in no way can be taken as a refutation of the Z film?

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replies in bold

I am not being critical of the man David Lifton. I am being critical of his theories as I have come to know them on this forum.

Mike,

Forming your opinions from what you have found out on this, or any other forum, is no way to understand - let alone criticise - any researcher's work and ideas. Opinions generated on the Internet tend to be watered down versions of the original. If you want to be critical of David Lifton, at least do him the curtesy of reading his work. That way you might at least understand what it is he is saying.

James

Again, I am not critical of David Lifton. I think he is a very nice man. I am critical of his theories that he has stated in the forum. That is all.

How can one be critical of "his theories" when you haven't taken the time to read and understand them yet?

I am happy that he is willing to engage with us in the forum.

Not as long as you keep talking out of your A$$ Mike... those here have been at it for 10, 20, 30 almost 50 years!! What he exposes are suppressed, historical FACTS related to the movement and alteration of JFK's body... refute this Mike... and please try not to forget that it was

Kellerman, Greer, Sibert & O'Neill who claim to WHEEL JFK into the morgue at 7:17.

and the MDW (Joint Casket Bearer Team) officially carries in the casket at 8pm... first incision at 8:15... Finck called at 7:30 after xrays and photos have already started being taken

When you can reconcile these three bits of FACT into a coherent theory, let us know... DSL did it in 1981 after 15 years of work. And you've done what, exactly?

BoyajianatBethesda6-630pm.jpg

My theory of the case is based on the validity of the photographic evidence. His theory of the case requires that photographic evidence to have been fabricated.

So why not go about AUTHENTICATING / VALIDATING this evidence? Your complete inability to grasp what DSL has offered is staggering...

As I have stated before, I have read very few books on the JFK assassination. I did not want to be influenced by any opinions of the case stated by other authors. I wanted to study the evidence and come up with my own opinion. I was very surprised to find that there was a book out there that had a somewhat similar interpretation.( I have not read that book either)

"study the evidence" - from where Mike? From which book or set of books will you be finding and authenticating this "evidence"

The WCR? HSCA? ARRB? Rush to Judgement? False Mystery? Accessories After the Fact? Reclaiming History? Case Closed? With Malice? Death of A President?

The Weisberg books, Harvey & Lee, Oswald and the CIA, LBJ: Mastermind, Who Kiled JFK?, Six Seconds in Dallas......

Where exactly are you going to find the evidence YOU LIKE?

When you read my opinion you can be sure it is my opinion, uninfluenced by the opinion of the author of any other book.

But like a$$holes, everyone has an opinion.... from what do you base this opinion Mike? What gives your opinion any value to others when you choose not to LEARN about the assassination?

This approach has worked well. I have been able to identify several important errors. The severe cropping of the Towner #3 photo and the incorrect chronological ordering of that photo are two important examples.

YOU were able to ID these errors?

Tell us Mike... what EXACTLY is your opinion related to the assassination and from where do you derive it?

Whose shoulders do you stand upon to come to your conclusions?

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I asked you a question yesterday that you never answered. In fact, you never answer any of my questions that is why you are still on my ignore list I will be honest with you, I do not read your posts, unless by accident. Your posts are meant to be hurtful. Once I detect that I do not read the posts and the poster ends up on my ignore list.

I consider the "limo stopped" but edited out in the Zapruder film "myth" to be "busted".

Edited by Mike Rago
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I asked you a question yesterday that you never answered. In fact, you never answer any of my questions that is why you are still on my ignore list I will be honest with you, I do not read your posts, unless by accident.

It appears that most of what you have done on this forum, and perhaps elsewhere, has been by accident.

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What YOU consider is of no consequence to anyone here Mikey...

You can IGNORE everyone if you like...

no one is going to put up with your repeated reluctance to LEARN SOMETHING HERE as opposed to climbing up your little ant hill and proclaiming yourself "King"

So no more worries Mikey... like Paul May and Brian Walker before you... stoopid is as stoopid does....

You want to get your jollies sounding ignorant and offering uninformed opinions - have at it.

Another fly by night xxxxx in the process of losing steam...

bu-bye now... :peace

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Toni Foster is known as the " running woman" because in the Z-film she is jogging toward the limosine. This is her standard title among researchers just to identify her. The issue is not, was she running, jogging, or walking quickly, but what did she see, and tell Debra Conway ? See the earlier post.

By the way, Mike, have you carefully read Best Evidence? I mean CAREFULLY. Because you haven't earned the right to criticize an author unless you understand him, and to understand Lifton you really need to read the book. It's very readable as it is extremely well-written, and , as sort of a historical narrative, has value that way as well.

So you accept it as true when the Zapruder film shows her running. You just pick and choose which things you want to believe and not believe from the Zapruder film.

I am not being critical of the man David Lifton. I am being critical of his theories as I have come to know them on this forum.

I consider the "myth" that the limo stopped and the Zapruder film was edited to remove the stop has have been "busted".

Mike, I want you to read, and read very carefully (that's the teacher me speaking, sorry). Go back and read what I said. I did not commit to the form of movement of the "running woman," Toni Foster. Did you catch that? The omission was quite deliberate, because I wanted to avoid the very point you thought I was making. Now, read my post again. You will see that what I considered important is not her manner of movement but what she told Debra Conway in the 1998 interview which became part of the Kennedy Assassination Chronicles in the summer of 2000. It was brave of Debra Conway to give Toni Foster a voice because Foster is a witness to the limo stop and hence to the fraudulant nature of the extant Z-film. I think Debra Conway broke open that part of the case for me, and she deserves recognition for this. Mike, you missed the main point of my post, and I wrote quite clearly, at least I thought I did. Your avoiding well-written books, like Best Evidence, may stem in part from an inability to follow an author's line of thought. I hope that this is not the case, and that here you just read too quickly and reacted.

I think it all the more important for your own well-being and knowledge of the case to take on Best Evidence and follow the author's line of thought to the bitter end. If you can do that, you'll have no trouble following a two or three sentence post, and you will certainly learn quite a lot about the case.

Edited by Daniel Gallup
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The limo did not stop and over half of the 59 witnesses said it did not stop.

I would suggest to you that you stop reading the books and concentrate on the evidence.

There is a part of me that thinks that because you read Best Evidence you have no desire to do your own investigation of the evidence. If that is the effect of reading Best Evidence then I do not agree with it.

You should know the evidence before your read the books so you can be in a position to correct errors that are made in the books, in fact, I think that is one of the major jobs of a researcher today, correct the books and the myths that those books have created.

Edited by Mike Rago
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