Len Colby Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Your desperation is showing. Nothing in your last post supports the notion there were excessive German POW deaths after the war, what was the point in posting it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Gaal Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Stephen Ambrose picks 7 other quisling historians to help him after he makes error of supporting/editing book that attacks his center at U of Orleans. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ BUT === Stephen Ambrose liked this book,above post . Gee Stephen Ambrose only dislikes Baque's work only when he gets close to Ambrose's wallet.....GEE Colby fights tooth and nail to defend CIA...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Colby Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Stephen Ambrose picks 7 other quisling historians to help him after he makes error of supporting/editing book that attacks his center at U of Orleans. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ BUT === Stephen Ambrose liked this book,above post . Gee Stephen Ambrose only dislikes Baque's work only when he gets close to Ambrose's wallet..... Yawn, so far you have produced no evidence that is the case and failed to address considerable evidence against it. BUT === Stephen Ambrose liked this book,above post . Gee Stephen Ambrose only dislikes Baque's work only when he gets close to Ambrose's wallet..... How ironic that you impugn the intelligence of others Ambrose “liked” Baque's less sensational claims, i.e. POWs were mistreated, those are backed by evidence but objected when he 'went rouge' and made almost certainly claims and abused evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Gaal Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 (edited) Lets do timeline Stephen Ambrose gets job Eisenhower Center,then helps edit book critical of Eisenhower, OOPPS !!!!, ( $$$$$ AMBROSE WALLET MIGHT TAKE A HIT) then he sets up commission/panel to Attack book he help edit.(?? WEIRD) This is revisionism Colby supports. COLBY'S BIGGEST COUNTER CLAIM TO OTHER LOSSES IS Stephen Ambrose and his panel. Colby's arguments are thus a house built on sand. Stephen Ambrose a man with more than one ethical problem (SEE below). ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Criticism Plagiarism controversy In 2002, Ambrose was accused, by Sally Richardson and others, of plagiarizing several passages in his book, The Wild Blue.[22][23] Fred Barnes reported in The Weekly Standard that Ambrose had taken passages from Wings of Morning: The Story of the Last American Bomber Shot Down over Germany in World War II, by Thomas Childers, a history professor at the University of Pennsylvania.[24] Ambrose had footnoted sources, but had not enclosed in quotation marks, numerous passages from Childers' book.[23][25] Ambrose and his publisher, Simon and Schuster, released an apology as a result.[citation needed] Ambrose asserted that only a few sentences in all his numerous books were the work of other authors. He offered this defense: I tell stories. I don't discuss my documents. I discuss the story. It almost gets to the point where, how much is the reader going to take? I am not writing a Ph.D. dissertation. I wish I had put the quotation marks in, but I didn't. I am not out there stealing other people's writings. If I am writing up a passage and it is a story I went to tell and this story fits and a part of it is from other people's writing, I just type it up that way and put it in a footnote. I just want to know where the hell it came from.[23] A Forbes investigation of his work found cases of plagiarism involving passages in at least six books, with a similar pattern going all the way back to his doctoral thesis.[26] The History News Network lists seven of Ambrose's works--The Wild Blue, Undaunted Courage, Nothing Like It In the World, Nixon: Ruin and Recovery, Citizen Soldiers, The Supreme Commander, and Crazy Horse and Custer--that copied twelve authors.[25] Factual errors and disputed characterizations WWII In the 1973 ITV television series, The World at War, episode 35, From War to Peace, Ambrose made basic factual errors. He said: "Manpower losses were almost insignificant; compared to the other combatants, insignificant. Only slightly more than a quarter of a million Americans died during the war. America was the least mobilized of all the nations, of all the major combatants in World War II. Altogether, we had an army and navy and air force of 12 million men out of a total population of 170 million. And of that 12 million, probably less than six million ever got overseas."[27] The population of the United States during the war was 131 million, of which nearly 16.6 million served in the armed forces during World War II, including 241,093 in the Coast Guard, and 243,000 in the Merchant Marine. Military deaths were 405,399, the most of any Allied country except the British Commonwealth, the Soviet Union and China.[28] According to U.S. census data, 73 percent of military personnel served abroad during World War II.[29][citation needed] Veterans of troop carrier units, who transported paratroopers in the American airborne landings in Normandy, have severely criticized Ambrose for portraying them as unqualified and cowardly in several of his works, including Band of Brothers and D-Day.[citation needed] Among the numerous errors he asserts in an open letter posted on the War Chronicle website, Randy Hils notes that Ambrose did not interview a single troop carrier pilot. This becomes highly relevant in light of Ambrose's assertion that the pilots sped up while the paratroopers were trying to jump. Hils hypothesizes that if Ambrose's only sources were inexpert witnesses whose only indication of airspeed were the sound of the engines, the maneuver of using the propellers as an airbrake would have sounded like power being applied.[30] In the HBO series, Band of Brothers, as well as Ambrose's book, a certain Private Albert Blithe is said to have been shot in the neck while scouting a farmhouse. Ambrose states that Blithe never recovered from his wound and died in 1948, when in actuality, Blithe recovered from a wound to his right shoulder and rejoined Easy Company for Operation Market Garden. Blithe appears to have left Europe shortly after that due to his wound but later continued a career in the Army until his death in 1967.[31][improper synthesis?] Two Ambrose accounts in D-Day, of alleged cowardice by British coxswains, have also been challenged as inaccurate. One, in which Sgt. Willard Northfleet is portrayed as drawing his gun on a coxswain when he tried to offload the men 400 yards from shore,[32] is corroborated by Sgt. John Slaughter (who was on the boat) in a C-SPAN video recording veterans' D-Day experiences.[33] It was disputed by Kevan Elsby, however,[34] on the basis of a contemporary debriefing which stated: "Four hundred yards from shore the British coxswain insisted that he could take the craft no farther so the men must swim for it. He started to lower the ramp but Platoon Sgt. Willard R. Norfleet blocked the mechanism and insisted that the boat was going farther."[35] The other, in which Capt. Ettore V. Zappacosta was portrayed as drawing his gun on a coxswain to make him go in when he protested he could not see the landmarks, was challenged by Pvt. Bob Sales as untrue.[36] Both Ambrose and Sales assert that Sales was the only survivor from that landing craft.[37] Ambrose asserts, in several works, that the German Panther tank used an 88mm gun. In fact, it used a 75mm gun. The German Tiger I and King Tiger tanks used the 88mm gun as did the Jagdpanther ("Hunting Panther"), a turretless tank destroyer version of the Panther.[citation needed][improper synthesis?] Pacific Railroad A front page article published in The Sacramento (CA) Bee on January 1, 2001, entitled Area Historians Rail Against Inaccuracies in Book,[38] listed more than sixty instances identified as "significant errors, misstatements, and made-up quotes" in Nothing Like It in the World: The Men Who Built the Transcontinental Railroad, 1863-1869, Ambrose's non-academic popular history about the construction of the Pacific Railroad between Council Bluffs, Iowa/Omaha, Nebraska and the San Francisco Bay at Alameda/Oakland via Sacramento, California, which was published in August, 2000. The discrepancies were documented in a detailed "fact-checking" paper compiled in December, 2000 by three Western US railroad historians who are also experienced researchers, consultants, and collectors specializing in the Pacific Railroad and related topics.[25][39][40] On January 11, 2001, Washington Post columnist Lloyd Grove reported in his column, The Reliable Source, that a co-worker had found a "serious historical error" in the same book that "a chastened Ambrose" promised to correct in future editions.[41] A number of journal reviews also sharply criticized the research and fact checking in the book. Reviewer Walter Nugent observed that it contained "annoying slips" such as mislabeled maps, inaccurate dates, geographical errors, and misidentified word origins,[42] while Don L. Hofsommer agreed that the book "confuses facts" and that "The research might best be characterized as 'once over lightly'."[43] The Eisenhower controversy In the introduction to Ambrose's biography of Eisenhower he claims that Eisenhower approached him after having read his previous biography of Henry Halleck, but Tim Rives, Deputy Director of the Eisenhower Presidential Center, says it was Ambrose who contacted Eisenhower and suggested the project,[44][45] as shown by a letter from Ambrose found in the Dwight D. Eisenhower Presidential Library and Museum.[46] After Eisenhower's death in 1969, Ambrose made repeated claims to have had a unique and extraordinarily close relationship with him over the final five years of the former President's life. In an extensive 1998 interview, for instance, Ambrose stated that he spent "a lot of time with Ike, really a lot, hundreds and hundreds of hours" interviewing Eisenhower on a wide range of subjects, and that he had been with him "on a daily basis for a couple years" before his death "doing interviews and talking about his life."[7] Rives has stated, however, that a number of the interview dates Ambrose cites in his 1970 book, The Supreme Commander, cannot be reconciled with Eisenhower's personal schedule. The former president's diary and telephone show that the pair met only three times, for a total of less than five hours.[16][44] Later, Ambrose was less specific when citing dates of interviews with Eisenhower.[44][45] see wiki Stephen Ambrose ####################Bacque took on the record of a beloved USA hero Eisenhower. If one had a pecuniary motovation to write a book ,even you (Colby) would admit that there would be eaiser book topics to take persue. ############## Edited October 4, 2012 by Steven Gaal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Colby Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 (edited) If all else fails attack the messenger, can you refute what he said about the book?And you still have at least seven other prominent historians who said Baqcue work was BS. No make that eight: Current academic consensus regarding the post-war death rate in Allied hands can—mainly based on work such as Ambrose's Eisenhower and the German POWs—be summed up in historian Niall Ferguson's words that Bacque's "calculations grossly exaggerate both the number of Germans the Americans captured and their mortality", although he also notes that "the mortality rate for German POWs in American hands was more than four times higher than the rate for those who surrendered to the British", but that the United States total mortality rate was under 1% and better than every other country in World War II except for the British.[44] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disarmed_Enemy_Forces#Controversy And you have yet to deal with: the lack of POWs who survived the camps saying many of their comrades died the lack of Germans complaining that their loved ones were missing the findings of the Maschke Commission Besides the Maschke Commission another German historian looked into POW deaths well before Baqcue: German POW expert Kurt W. Bohme noted that, of the 5 million prisoners in American hands, the European Theater of Operations provost marshall recorded a total of 15,285 prisoner deaths.[90] In 1974, the German Red Cross reported that about 41,000 German MIAs were last reported in western Germany, which is also the location of the prisoner camps.[91] It is reasonable to assume that some deaths in transit camps just before the end of the war went unreported in the chaos at the time.[91] Historian Albert Cowdrey estimates that the total figure is unlikely to be above the aggregate of the recorded deaths and the MIAs, which together total 56,285.[91] That maximum number would constitute approximately 1.1% of the 5 million total prisoners held by U.S. forces.[91] That figure also is close to Bohme's estimate of 1% for deaths of prisoners held by the Western powers.[91] http://en.wikipedia....rman_POW_deaths Bacque took on the record of a beloved USA hero Eisenhower. If one had a pecuniary motovation to write a book ,even you (Colby) would admit that there would be eaiser book topics to take persue. An ad hom and now a strawman, who said anything about him being in it for the money? He seems to really believe the BS that he spouts, so does Butz. But since you brought it up, Amazon lists almost 1600 books with 'Eisenhower' in the title published before 1989, it was a crowded field, it would have been easier to make money (and a splash) writing something totally different. Edited October 5, 2012 by Len Colby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Gaal Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 (edited) "client-academics" as part of a "cover up" of the deaths that Other Losses alleged occurred.[12] ##################################### PLEASE NOTE RED/BOLD BELOW Gee Colby's main ref a Army hack who writes fantasy .........yup real solid historian ....no AXE to grind re army ...... now thats fantasy Albert E. Cowdrey Albert E. Cowdrey is an American fantasy and science fiction author. He has published the science fiction novel Crux and a number of short stories. Much of his short fiction has appeared in Fantasy and Science Fiction and centers on his love for New Orleans. He was Chief of the Special History Branch in the U.S. Army, and wrote a number of nonfiction books about the history of the medical branches of the army. In 2003 Cowdrey's short story "Queen for a Day" won the World Fantasy Award. His novella "The Overseer" received a nomination in the 2009 World Fantasy Awards. _____________________________ American USSR An Extensive Archive of America's Hundreds of Lies, Treacheries, Wars, False Operations, Torture, and Murders American USSR:World War Two War Crimes By Americans And Allies WORLD WAR TWO WAR CRIMES BY AMERICAN FORCES Canicattì massacre: killing of Italian civilians by Lieutenant Colonel McCaffrey. A confidential inquiry was made, but McCaffrey was never charged with an offence relating to the incident. He died in 1954. This incident remained virtually unknown until Joseph S. Salemi of New York University, whose father witnessed it, publicized it.BIBLIOGRAPHYGiovanni Bartolone, Le altre stragi: Le stragi alleate e tedesche nella Sicilia del 1943–1944George Duncan, Massacres and Atrocities of World War II in the Axis Countries The Dachau massacre: killing of German prisoners of war and surrendering SS soldiers at the Dachau concentration camp.BIBLIOGRAPHYAlbert Panebianco (ed). Dachau its liberation 57th Infantry Association, Felix L. Sparks, Secretary 15 June 1989 In the Biscari massacre, which consist of two instances of mass murders, U.S. troops of the 45th Infantry Division killed roughly 75 prisoners of war, mostly Italian.BIBLIOGRAPHYWeingartner, James (November 1989). "Massacre at Biscari: Patton and An American War Crime". The Historian LII (1): 24–39. Operation Teardrop: Eight of the surviving, captured crewmen from the sunk German submarine U-546 are tortured by US military personnel. Historian Philip K. Lundeberg has written that the beating and torture of U-546's survivors was a singular atrocity motivated by the interrogators' need to quickly get information on what the US believed were potential missile attacks on the continental US by German submarines.BIBLIOGRAPHYLundeberg, Philip K. (1994). "Operation Teardrop Revisited". In Runyan, Timothy J. and Copes, Jan M. To Die Gallantly : The Battle of the Atlantic. Boulder: Westview Press. ISBN 0813388155. , pp. 221–226; Blair, Clay (1998). Hitler's U-Boat War. The Hunted, 1942–1945 (Modern Library ed.). New York: Random House. ISBN 0679640339. , p. 687. EISENHOWER MURDERS ONE MILLION GERMAN WAR PRISONERS VIA EXPOSURE TO WINTER RAINS, STARVATION, AND DISEASE AMERICAN CAMPS - 2.5 MILLION GERMAN PRISONERS EXPOSED NO CLOTHING, BEDDING, HOUSING & 300 CALORIES RATION EISENHOWER'S GERMAN PRISONER DEATH CAMP VIDEO Other Losses is a 1989 book by Canadian writer James Bacque, in which Bacque alleges that U.S. General Dwight Eisenhower intentionally caused the deaths by starvation or exposure of around a million German prisoners of war held in Western internment camps briefly after the Second World War. Other Losses charges that hundreds of thousands of German prisoners that had fled the Eastern front were designated as "Disarmed Enemy Forces" in order to avoid recognition under the third Geneva Convention, for the purpose of carrying out their deaths through disease or slow starvation. Other Losses cites documents in the U.S. National Archives and interviews with people who stated they witnessed the events. The book claims that there was a "method of genocide" in the banning of Red Cross inspectors, the returning of food aid, the policy regarding shelter building, and soldier ration policy. U.S. Army military historian Colonel Ernest F. Fisher, who wrote the book's foreword, argues that the claims are accurate. Other Losses The title of Other Losses derives from a column of figures in weekly U.S. Army reports that Bacque states actually reflects a body count of German prisoners that died of slow starvation or diseases. The book states that Colonel Philip Lauben, chief of German Affairs Branch at SHAEF (Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force), confirmed that "other losses" meant deaths and escapes, with escapes being a minor part.[1] Bacque dismisses claims from his opponents that "other losses" meant transfers or discharges, as these are accounted for in other columns in the same tables. Furthermore, there is no separate column in which deaths were recorded. The book refers to the Army Chief Historians report that was published in 1947; in the 20 pages dealing with the capture, transfer and discharge of prisoners, the report makes no mention of releasing prisoners without formal discharge. Furthermore, Bacque cites Army orders from Eisenhower himself (Disbandment Directive No. 1) stating that every prisoner leaving captivity had to have discharge papers.[2] Disarmed Enemy Forces designation Other Losses states that Eisenhower sought to sidestep the requirements of the Geneva Convention through the designation of these prisoners as Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEF), specifically stating that "in March, as Germany was being cracked ... a message was being signed and initialed by Eisenhower proposed a startling departure from the Geneva Convention (GC) — the creation of a new class of prisoners who would not be fed by the Army after the surrender of Germany."[3] The book states that, against the orders of his superiors, Eisenhower took 2 million additional prisoners after Germany's surrender that fell under the DEF designation.[4] Other Losses states that the million soldiers it alleges died had fled the Eastern front and most likely ended up in Rheinwiesenlager prisoner transit camps run by United States and French forces where many such prisoners died of disease or starvation under the cover of the DEF designation. The book cites orders from Eisenhower which stipulated that the Germans would be solely responsible for feeding and maintaining the DEFs, however he then prevented any aid from reaching them.[5] Number of prisoners who died Other Losses claims that nearly one million German prisoners died while being held by United States and French forces at the end of World War II. Specifically, it claims: "The victims undoubtedly number over 800,000, almost certainly over 900,000 and quite likely over a million. Their deaths were knowingly caused by army officers who had sufficient resources to keep the prisoners alive."[1] Other Losses contains an analysis of a medical record that it states supports the conclusion of a prisoner death rate of 30%.[6] Bacque also referred to a 1950 report from the German Red Cross which stated that 1.5 million former German POWs were still officially listed as missing, fate unknown. When the KGB opened its archives in the 1990s, Bacque's estimates for the number of missing POWs that died in Soviet camps was found to be correct. The book claims that approximately 15% of the deaths in the U.S. camps were from starvation or dehydration and that most deaths were caused by dysentery, pneumonia, or septicaemia, as a result of the unsanitary conditions and lack of medicine.[7] Other Losses further claims that officers from the U.S. Medical Corps reported death rates far higher than they had ever seen before.[8] The book further states that Eisenhower's staff was complicit in the scheme.[9] Other Losses also states that, in order to carry out his scheme, Eisenhower kept these prisoners in camps far longer than it was necessary[10] It claims that, by the end of 1945, only 40% of prisoners had been released.[11] Other Losses further characterizes the 22-volume German Maschke Commission report investigating the deaths of German prisoners as written by "client-academics" as part of a "cover up" of the deaths that Other Losses alleged occurred.[12] Treatment of prisoners Other Losses claims that the U.S. dismantled the German welfare agencies, including the German Red Cross, then dismissed the Swiss Government from its role as Protecting Power. No agencies were allowed to visit the camps or provide any assistance to the prisoners,[13] including delegates from ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross), which was a violation of the Geneva Convention.[14] It further states that the only notable protest against this was from William Lyon Mackenzie King, Prime Minister of Canada.[15] Bacque states that the press was also prevented from visiting the camps, and therefore was unable to report on the state of the camps and the condition of the prisoners. The book states that many of the U.S. camps consisted of open fields surrounded by barbed wire, with no shelter or toilet facilities. In these camps prisoners were forced to sleep on the ground in the open, though it claims that the U.S. Army had plenty of surplus tents which could have been issued.[16] No supplies such as blankets were supplied to the prisoners, even though these were in good supply at various locations such as the depot at Naples. In a letter General Everett Hughes stated that there were "more stocks than we can ever use; stretch as far as eye can see."[17] The book quotes Dr. Konrad Adenauer (later Chancellor of Germany) stating that "The German prisoners have been penned up for weeks without any protection from the weather, without drinking water, without medical care. They are being held in a manner contrary to all humanitarian principles and flagrantly contrary to the Hague and Geneva Conventions."[18] Both J. P. Pradervand (ICRC French Delegation) and Henry Dunning (American Red Cross) sent letters to the State Department condemning the poor treatment of the German prisoners.[19] Colonel Philip Lauben stated that "The Vosges was just one big death camp."[20] Prisoner totals The book claims that the U.S. Army employed a number of methods to reduce the number of prisoners officially on hand. One method was to accuse the Russians of taking far more prisoners than they reported.[21] Another was the "midnight shift", whereby the opening balance of a given week was less than the closing balance of the previous week.[22] The book claims that a "Missing Million" prisoners exist in the difference in totals between two U.S. army reports (the last of the daily reports and the first of the weekly reports) issued on June 2, 1945.[23] As a consequence of this, according to Quartermaster's reports the number of rations issued to the camps was reduced by 900,000.[24] After visiting many of the camps in August 1945, Other Losses states that General Robert Littlejohn (Quartermaster of the ETO) concluded that the U.S. Army was reporting 3.7 million prisoners while it actually possessed 5.2 million, thereby corroborating the conclusions made in a report three months earlier from General J. Lee (in charge of logistics for the ETO), which he had sent to SHAEF headquarters.[25] Other Losses states that Littlejohn subsequently wrote in a report to Washington that because requisitions for supplies were based on these faulty numbers, 1.5 million prisoners were getting no food.[26] Other Losses states that, three years later, in 1948 the ICRC formally requested documents confirming the total number of prisoners in the U.S. Zone and was eventually told that 3.5 million were there, which omitted approximately 1.7 million from the actual number of 5,224,000.[27][28] Food shortage Other Losses explicates the 1944–1949 German food crisis to support the claims for a high mortality rate.[29] Other Losses concludes that the 1945 food crisis in Europe was contrived by Allied forces by the use of restrictive food import policy, including restrictions on Red Cross food deliveries, and other means.[30] It claims that Eisenhower purposefully starved German prisoners given that "[t]here was a lot more wheat available in the combined areas of western Germany, France, Britain, Canada and the USA than there had been in the same year in 1939."[31] Other Losses states that, in May 1945, the ICRC had 100,000 tons of food in storage warehouses in Switzerland.[32] The book claims that, when they tried to send train loads of this food into the U.S. Zone, the U.S. Army sent the trains back, saying their own warehouses were full. Other Losses states that this prompted Max Huber, head of the ICRC, to send a strong letter of protest to the State Department, in which he described the difficulties placed by SHAEF in the way of the ICRC efforts to provide aid. He said "Our responsibility for the proper use of relief supplies placed in our care is incompatible with a restriction to the fulfillment of orders which render us powerless to furnish relief which we ourselves judge necessary."[33] U.S. Army warehouses had 13.5 million Red Cross food parcels taken from the ICRC, which were never distributed.[34] The book also states that German civilians were prevented from bringing food to the camps,[35] and that Red Cross food parcels were confiscated by SHAEF, and the War Department banned them from being given to the men in the camps.[36] The book states that Bacque found no evidence of a drastic food shortage in the U.S. Army — "We had so much food we didn’t know what to do with it." — Colonel Henry Settle, 106th division. "We are not in any desperate need of extra food." — Lt Colonel Bailey, SHAEF. "There is in this Theater a substantial excess of subsistence ... over 3,000,000 rations a day less than those requisitioned were issued." — General Robert Littlejohn, Quartermaster of the ETO.[37] Ambrose, Stephen (1992), "Eisenhower and the Germans", in Bischoff, Gunter; Ambrose, Stephen, Eisenhower and the German POWs, New York: Louisiana State University Press, ISBN 0807117587 Ambrose, Stephen (February 24, 1991), "Ike and the Disappearing Atrocities", The New York Times, http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/11/22/specials/ambrose-atrocities.html Bacque, James (1989), Other Losses: An Investigation into the Mass Deaths of German Prisoners of War at the Hands of the French and Americans After World War II Bischoff, Gunter; Ambrose, Stephen (1992), "Introduction", in Bischoff, Gunter; Ambrose, Stephen, Eisenhower and the German POWs, New York: Louisiana State University Press, ISBN 0807117587 Bischoff, Gunter (1992), "Bacque and Historical Evidence", in Bischoff, Gunter; Ambrose, Stephen, Eisenhower and the German POWs, New York: Louisiana State University Press, ISBN 0807117587 Bischof, Gunter; Villa, Brian Loring (2003), Was Ike Responsible for the Deaths of Hundreds of Thousands of German POW's? Pro and Con, History News Network, http://hnn.us/articles/1266.html Bohme, Kurt W. (1973), Die detschen Kriegsgefangemen in In amerikanischer Hand: Europa Cowdrey, Albert E. (1992), "A Question of Numbers", in Bischoff, Gunter; Ambrose, Stephen, Eisenhower and the German POWs, New York: Lousiana State University Press, ISBN 0807117587 Ferguson, Niall (2004), "Prisoner Taking and Prisoner Killing in the Age of Total War: Towards a Political Economy of Military Defeat", War in History 11 (2) Overmans, Rudiger (1992), "German Histiography, the War Losses, and the Prisoners of War", in Bischoff, Gunter; Ambrose, Stephen, Eisenhower and the German POWs, New York: Louisiana State University Press, ISBN 0807117587 Peterson, Edward N. (1977), The American Occupation of Germany: Retreat to Victory Peterson, Edward N. (1990), The Many Faces of Defeat: The German People's Experience in 1945 Ratza, Werner (1973), "Die deutschen Kriegsgefangenen in der Sowjetunion", in Maschke, Erich, Zur Geschichtte der deutschen Kriegsgefangenen des Zweiten Weltkrieges Steininger, Rolf (1992), "Some Reflections on the Maschke Commission", in Bischoff, Gunter; Ambrose, Stephen, Eisenhower and the German POWs, New York: Louisiana State University Press, ISBN 0807117587 Streit, Charles (1986), "The German Army and the Policies of Genocide", in Hirschfeld, Gerhard, Jew and Soviet Prisoners of War in Nazy Germany Tent, James F. (1992), "Food Shortages in Germany and Europe 1945-1948", in Bischoff, Gunter; Ambrose, Stephen, Eisenhower and the German POWs, New York: Louisiana State University Press, ISBN 0807117587 Villa, Brian Loring (1992), "The diplomatic and Political Context of the POW Camps Tragedy", in Bischoff, Gunter; Ambrose, Stephen, Eisenhower and the German POWs, New York: Louisiana State University Press, ISBN 0807117587 Primary James Bacque, Other Losses 1991 edition, Prima Publishing, ISBN 1-55958-099-2 James Bacque, Other Losses revised edition 1999, Little Brown and Company, Boston, New York, Toronto, London ISBN 1-55168-191-9 James Bacque. Crimes and Mercies: The Fate Of German Civilians Under Allied Occupation, 1944-1950 Little Brown & Company; ISBN 0-7515-2277-5; (August 1997) Gunter Bischof and Stephen E. Ambrose. Eisenhower and the German Pows: Facts Against Falsehood (1992) Secondary Richard Dominic Wiggers, The United States and the Refusal to Feed German Civilians after World War II pp. 274–288, In Várdy, Steven Béla and Tooly, T. Hunt (Eds.) Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth-Century Europe (year) ISBN John Dietrich, The Morgenthau Plan: Soviet Influence on American Postwar Policy Algora Publishing, New York (2002) ISBN 1-892941-90-2 On-Line Resources Other Losses online ebook. Lecture by James Bacque about Other Losses. Did the Allies Starve Millions of Germans? — This James Bacque article seems to be the main source for the genocide accusation New York Times Book Review of Other Losses (or here) by historian Stephen Ambrose. Bacque and U.S. Army historian Fisher's reply to Ambrose MORE ON WAR CRIMES AGAINST GERMAN SOLDIERS BY U.S. TROOPS In the aftermath of the Malmedy massacre a written order from the HQ of the 328th US Army Infantry Regiment, dated December 21, 1944, stated: No SS troops or paratroopers will be taken prisoner but will be shot on sight.[33] Major-General Raymond Hufft (U.S. Army) gave instructions to his troops not to take prisoners when they crossed the Rhine in 1945. "After the war, when he reflected on the war crimes he authorized, he admitted, 'if the Germans had won, I would have been on trial at Nuremberg instead of them.'"[34] Stephen Ambrose related: "I've interviewed well over 1000 combat veterans. Only one of them said he shot a prisoner... Perhaps as many as one-third of the veterans...however, related incidents in which they saw other GIs shooting unarmed German prisoners who had their hands up."[35] Near the French village of Audouville-la-Hubert 30 German Wehrmacht prisoners were massacred by U.S. paratroopers.[36] Historian Peter Lieb has found that many US and Canadian units were ordered to not take prisoners during the D-Day landings in Normandy. If this view is correct it may explain the fate of 64 German prisoners (out of 130 captured) who did not make it to the POW collecting point on Omaha Beach on D-Day.[37] According to an article in Der Spiegel by Klaus Wiegrefe, many personal memoirs of Allied soldiers have been willfully ignored by historians until now because they were at odds with the "Greatest Generation" mythology surrounding WWII, but this has recently started to change with books such as "The Day of Battle" by Rick Atkinson where he describes Allied war crimes in Italy, and "D-Day: The Battle for Normandy," by Anthony Beevor.[37] Beevor's latest work is currently discussed by scholars, and should some of them be proven right that means that Allied war crimes in Normandy were much more extensive "than was previously realized".[36]A PECULIAR CRUSADE American Massacres and War Crimes Against Germans Rivaling Malmedy's Massacre of Americans. This is a copy of relevant pages of this book on Google Books... http://books.google.com/books?id=7HhkSGLdMpAC&pg=PA118#v=onepage&q&f=false Edited October 5, 2012 by Steven Gaal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Colby Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 (edited) "client-academics" as part of a "cover up" of the deaths that Other Losses alleged occurred.[12] ##################################### PLEASE NOTE RED/BOLD BELOW Gee Colby's main ref a Army hack who writes fantasy .........yup real solid historian ....no AXE to grind re army ...... now thats fantasy Albert E. Cowdrey Albert E. Cowdrey is an American fantasy and science fiction author. He has published the science fiction novel Crux and a number of short stories. Much of his short fiction has appeared in Fantasy and Science Fiction and centers on his love for New Orleans. He was Chief of the Special History Branch in the U.S. Army, and wrote a number of nonfiction books about the history of the medical branches of the army. In 2003 Cowdrey's short story "Queen for a Day" won the World Fantasy Award. His novella "The Overseer" received a nomination in the 2009 World Fantasy Awards. Wow two logical fallacies, a strawman and an ad hom., in one sentence!! 1) he was NOT my “main ref” he was one of 10 historians cited, 2) Cowdrey is an award winning historian and former professor with a PhD from Johns Hopkins with various scholarly articles and history books from academic and major commercial publishers to his name who also happened to write fantasy. 3) If having worked as a historian for the Army makes one a “hack” of questionable credibility that is really bad news for Bacque because the only historian who backed his findings worked for them as well. 4) The phrase “axe to grind” did not make sense in this context, you meant 'bias' or something similar. Get back to us when you can refute the argument rather than the man. Albert E. Cowdrey was born in New Orleans, Louisiana, and received his education from the schools in that city and from Tulane and Johns Hopkins Universities. He served in the Army as an enlisted man during the years 1957–59. After teaching at Tulane University and at Louisiana State University, he joined the staff of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers historical office and, since 1978, that of the U.S. Army Center of Military History, from where he retired in 1993. His interest in southern history brought him the American Historical Association’s Herbert Feis Award in 1984, and his prizewinning history of Army medicine in the Korean war, The Medics’ War, has been widely adopted as a text in military medical schools. Dr. Cowdrey is the coauthor of The Medical Department: Medical Service in the European Theater of Operations and author of Fighting for Life: American Military Medicine in World War II. He also has published many articles on a variety of historical topics in American, British, Canadian, and international journals. http://www.history.a...Pub_10-24-1.pdf pg. x The Social Sciences Research Council's grants this spring [1956] included:... a first-year graduate study fellowship to Albert E. Cowdrey,TulaneUniversity, who will be at Johns Hopkins. http://www.jstor.org...=21101116878263 On several occasions, Albert E. Cowdrey, Ph.D., chief of the Special Histories Branch of the Center of Military History, U.S. Army, made documents filed in his office available to me. An Extensive Archive of America's Hundreds of Lies, Treacheries, Wars, False Operations, Torture, and Murders American USSR:World War Two War Crimes By Americans And Allies WORLD WAR TWO WAR CRIMES BY AMERICAN FORCES Canicattì massacre: killing of Italian civilians by Lieutenant Colonel McCaffrey. A confidential inquiry was made, but McCaffrey was never charged with an offence relating to the incident. He died in 1954. This incident remained virtually unknown until Joseph S. Salemi of New York University, whose father witnessed it, publicized it.BIBLIOGRAPHYGiovanni Bartolone, Le altre stragi: Le stragi alleate e tedesche nella Sicilia del 1943–1944George Duncan, Massacres and Atrocities of World War II in the Axis Countries[…] Not to excuse these incidents but 'xxxx happens' during war and men after long periods of stress including facing imminent death, seeing their buddies killed and liberating concentration camps etc. commit atrocities. I'm sure such acts are committed by all sides of all armed conflicts. However these incidents really torpedo your fantasy despite involving casualties at 1/10,000 – 1/100,000 the scale Bacque alleges all but one (the nature of which is disputed) ofthe incidents that involved fatalities were investigated at the time, Yet you would have us believe a million POWs were starved to death with nary a trace. EISENHOWER MURDERS ONE MILLION GERMAN WAR PRISONERS VIA EXPOSURE TO WINTER RAINS, STARVATION, AND DISEASE We aren't in the Land of Oz simply repeating something won't make it so. The book states that Colonel Philip Lauben, chief of German Affairs Branch at SHAEF (Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force), confirmed that "other losses" meant deaths and escapes, with escapes being a minor part. As previously noted Lauben said at least two times that Bacque misquoted him. You seem to be intentionally sending our 'debate' in circles. Bacque dismisses claims from his opponents that "other losses" meant transfers or discharges, as these are accounted for in other columns in the same tables. Furthermore, there is no separate column in which deaths were recorded. So says Bacque, are there over 1 million men listed as other losses? GAAL: "The book refers to the Army Chief Historians report that was published in 1947; in the 20 pages dealing with the capture, transfer and discharge of prisoners, the report makes no mention of releasing prisoners without formal discharge. Furthermore, Bacque cites Army orders from Eisenhower himself (Disbandment Directive No. 1) stating that every prisoner leaving captivity had to have discharge papers.[2]" Is any of this confirmed by anyone besides Bacque and his co-author? GAAL:"Bacque also referred to a 1950 report from the German Red Cross which stated that 1.5 million former German POWs were still officially listed as missing, fate unknown. When the KGB opened its archives in the 1990s, Bacque's estimates for the number of missing POWs that died in Soviet camps was found to be correct." And how many of them were in Western controlled areas? “In 1974, the German Red Cross reported that about 41,000 German MIAs were last reported in western Germany, which is also the location of the prisoner camps.[91]” GAAL:"Other Losses further characterizes the 22-volume German MaschkeCommission report investigating the deaths of German prisoners as written by "client-academics" as part of a "cover up" of the deaths that Other Lossesalleged occurred.[12]" Of course he'd say something like that because it totaly undermines his case. What evidence if any did he cite in support of this claim? Between a 12 year/22 volume 1962 – 1974 study by eminent German historians, the leader of whom was himself a POW and a book written by a Canadian novelist released in 1989 by a non-academic publisher, call me crazy but I'll put more faith in the former especially when numerous historians have said the latter is nonsense. GAAL:"We had so much food we didn’t know what to do with it." — Colonel Henry Settle, 106th division. "We are not in any desperate need of extra food." — Lt Colonel Bailey, SHAEF. "There is in this Theater a substantial excess of subsistence ... over 3,000,000 rations a day less than those requisitioned were issued." — General Robert Littlejohn, Quartermaster of the ETO.[37] Quotes without reliable citation or context prove nothing. GAAL:"Stephen Ambrose related: "I've interviewed well over 1000 combat veterans. Only one of them said he shot a prisoner... Perhaps as many as one-third of the veterans...however, related incidents in which they saw other GIs shooting unarmed German prisoners who had their hands up."[35]" LOL when Amrose says what Gaal likes he's reliable, when he contradicts Gaal's fantasies he is a xxxx. Edited October 6, 2012 by Len Colby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 You two are indefatigable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Clark Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 On 11/12/2012 at 1:48 AM, Paul Brancato said: You two are indefatigable. LOL, I saw a few reasonable posts, then BANG ZOOOOOM! And Colby and Gaal were off to the races! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Clark Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 What ever became of Gaal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 No idea Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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