CE 567 to CE 569....Where is the rest of the bullet?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Robert,

I accept the best evidence (the photos and X-rays). Obviously, you do not.

What more needs to be said?

Mr. Von Pein

Accepting the "best evidence" as you do, what do you have to say about what Drs. Humes and Boswell had to say about the back of head fragment brought in to the autopsists that completed the bullet entrance wound to the back of JFK's head in the close vicinity of the external occipital protruberance? Surely, you cannot just ignore these learned gentlemen, can you?

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee363/Traveller111/imagesCARPHHG5_zps54665f67.jpg

Edited June 16, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[David Von Pein]

Mr. Von Pein

Accepting the "best evidence" as you do, what do you have to say about what Drs. Humes and Boswell had to say about the back of head fragment brought in to the autopsists that completed the bullet entrance wound to the back of JFK's head in the close vicinity of the external occipital protruberance [sic]? Surely, you cannot just ignore these learned gentlemen, can you?

Where do you think you're going with your arguments about the entry wound, Robert? As far as I can see, it appears you're merely going around in circles. Because regardless of the exact (to-the-inch) location of the entry wound, the autopsy doctors (all of them!) have always said that there was only ONE wound of entry in JFK's head -- and it was in the rear of the head....not the front of the head, not the temple.

Ergo, only one bullet hit JFK in the head--and it came from behind the President. Why would you choose to ignore this fundamental foundational fact?

You seem to think the autopsy doctors did, in fact, see an entry wound low in the President's head (very near the EOP), right? And since the autopsy report, which was signed by all three of those doctors who performed the President's autopsy at Bethesda, verifies the fact that there was only ONE wound of entry in JFK's head, then I ask again: where do you think you can go with this information?

How can you advance the theory of a multi-gun conspiracy via this information which says--clear as day--that President Kennedy had only one bullet hole of entry in his cranium?

Even if you wish to perpetually argue about the exact square inch on Kennedy's head where the wound was situated, at the end of this day (like all other days that preceded it) you're still going to end up facing an autopsy report and three autopsy surgeons who proved the following fact at Bethesda Naval Hospital on the night of November 22, 1963....

"In 1963, we proved at the autopsy table that President Kennedy was struck from above and behind by the fatal shot. The pattern of the entrance and exit wounds in the skull proves it, and if we stayed here until hell freezes over, nothing will change this proof. It happens 100 times out of 100, and I will defend it until I die. This is the essence of our autopsy, and it is supreme ignorance to argue any other scenario. This is a law of physics and it is foolproof--absolutely, unequivocally, and without question. The conspiracy buffs have totally ignored this central scientific fact, and everything else is hogwash. There was no interference with our autopsy, and there was no conspiracy to suppress the findings."

-- Dr. James Humes; JAMA interview; October 1991

MORE --- JFK Archives: DVP Vs. DiEugenio (Re: The Head Wounds)

Edited June 16, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

Mr. Von Pein

Accepting the "best evidence" as you do, what do you have to say about what Drs. Humes and Boswell had to say about the back of head fragment brought in to the autopsists that completed the bullet entrance wound to the back of JFK's head in the close vicinity of the external occipital protruberance [sic]? Surely, you cannot just ignore these learned gentlemen, can you?

Where do you think you're going with your arguments about the entry wound, Robert? As far as I can see, it appears you're merely going around in circles. Because regardless of the exact (to-the-inch) location of the entry wound, the autopsy doctors (all of them!) have always said that there was only ONE wound of entry in JFK's head -- and it was in the rear of the head....not the front of the head, not the temple.

Ergo, only one bullet hit JFK in the head--and it came from behind the President. Why would you choose to ignore this fundamental foundational fact?

You seem to think the autopsy doctors did, in fact, see an entry wound low in the President's head (very near the EOP), right? And since the autopsy report, which was signed by all three of those doctors who performed the President's autopsy at Bethesda, verifies the fact that there was only ONE wound of entry in JFK's head, then I ask again: where do you think you can go with this information?

How can you advance the theory of a multi-gun conspiracy via this information which says--clear as day--that President Kennedy had only one bullet hole of entry in his cranium?

Even if you wish to perpetually argue about the exact square inch on Kennedy's head where the wound was situated, at the end of this day (like all other days that preceded it) you're still going to end up facing an autopsy report and three autopsy surgeons who proved the following fact at Bethesda Naval Hospital on the night of November 22, 1963....

"In 1963, we proved at the autopsy table that President Kennedy was struck from above and behind by the fatal shot. The pattern of the entrance and exit wounds in the skull proves it, and if we stayed here until hell freezes over, nothing will change this proof. It happens 100 times out of 100, and I will defend it until I die. This is the essence of our autopsy, and it is supreme ignorance to argue any other scenario. This is a law of physics and it is foolproof--absolutely, unequivocally, and without question. The conspiracy buffs have totally ignored this central scientific fact, and everything else is hogwash. There was no interference with our autopsy, and there was no conspiracy to suppress the findings."

-- Dr. James Humes; JAMA interview; October 1991

MORE --- JFK Archives: DVP Vs. DiEugenio (Re: The Head Wounds)

Mr. Von Pein

Once again, you have artfully dodged the question put to you.

The cowlick is at the top of the back of the head, while the external occipital protruberance, as shown by the diagram below, is at the bottom of the back of the head. Even a first year medical student assisting in an autopsy would have difficulty confusing the two, but you would seriously have us consider the possibility Drs. Humes, Boswell and Finck, all experts in their fields, were so grossly incompetent they gave the location of the entrance wound as the EOP instead of the cowlick. Utter nonsense.

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee363/Traveller111/imagesCARPHHG5_zps54665f67.jpg

Speaking of nonsense, there are also degrees to which we tolerate nonsense. For the sake of argument, we have been discussing the location of the rear entrance wound and ignoring the fact there is a great deal of evidence showing JFK was struck in the head by two shots. I believe JFK was struck in the head almost simultaneously by two bullets; the first one in the rear of the head at the EOP and the second one in the right temple.

As pointed out by Mr. Gallup, Drs. Humes and Boswell gave testimony about a skull fragment arriving to the autopsy just after midnight, long after your sacred photos were taken. The fragment had half of a bullet hole to it and completed the other half of the bullet entrance hole at the EOP. As the fragment was a good deal larger than the half of a bullet hole it contained, we have evidence of an exit wound at the back of JFK's head in the vicinity of the EOP; corroborating early eyewitness reports from Parkland and Bethesda.

Why do the "official" autopsy photos show the back of JFK's head to be intact?

Edited June 17, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas H. Purvis]

At 12:30 P.M., Nov. 22, 1963, JFK was supposedly struck in the back of the head with a bullet fired from six stories up in the Texas School Book Depository, at a range of approximately 88 yards. The bullet was fired from a 6.5x52 mm Carcano M91/38 short rifle and was a full metal jacket bullet with an extraordinarily thick jacket about 1 mm thick, typical of 6.5 mm Carcano bullets.

What happened to that 6.5 mm Carcano bullet is so unusual, experts to this day can neither recreate it or explain it. As I pointed out in a previous thread, the walls of the 6.5 mm Carcano and the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer FMJ bullets are so thick, they were used for head shots to elephants as the strong bullets resisted deformation and breakup while travelling through the thick elephant skull bones.

So, what happened? Why didn't the 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet stay together, travel through JFK's head and exit his face, as one would expect this bullet to do?

Mr. Craig Lamson has tried to suggest that, out of four 6.5 mm Carcano cartridges (made by the Western Cartridge Co., USA) in Oswald's possession that day, one bullet had its nose drilled or scored deeply enough, prior to being fired, to make it into a fragmenting hollow point bullet. As luck would have it, according to Mr. Lamson, this just happened to be the bullet that made contact with JFK's head with such explosive results.

While it is highly unlikely that Oswald would only doctor the nose of one out of four bullets in this fashion, there is something else drastically wrong with this theory. It is something that has bothered me for years and it is now time to share with you what I believe actually occurred.

Below are links to two Warren Commission evidence photos, that of CE 567 and CE 569. According to investigators, these were the only two bullet fragments of any size or note found in the limousine.

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee363/Traveller111/Photo_naraevid_CE567-1_zps089fc93d.jpg

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee363/Traveller111/Photo_naraevid_CE569-2_zps7a247a7c.jpg

CE 567 is presumably the nose sction of the 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet that struck the rear of JFK's head, while CE 569 is the jacket base of the same bullet. Both were supposedly found in the front of the limousine, following the assassination. Noticeably absent are the lead and bullet jacket from that section of the bullet between CE 567 and CE 569.

Though badly deformed and split, the nose of the bullet (CE 567) was still in one piece. This fact alone tells me that the bullet that struck JFK in the head was not modified into being a fragmenting bullet in the normal fashion by drilling or slicing into the copper jacket of the nose until the lead core is exposed. If it had been altered in such a fashion, it would never have been found in one piece, as portrayed by CE 567, but would have been in many pieces; all quite small.

So, if the bullet that struck JFK's head was a fragmenting bullet (and I see no other possibility) and CE 567 precludes the alteration of its nose to make it a fragmenting bullet, how did it fragment? I'm delighted that you asked.

Pictured below is a rare 6.5 mm Carcano cartridge manufactured for the Italian military called a "multi-shot" cartridge. While I do not believe this type of round, which actually contained lead shot within a hollow jacket, was the type that struck JFK, I believe the method used to cause the jacket of this bullet to come apart was also used to facilitate the breaking up of the round that struck JFK's head. Little seems to be known about the multi-shot cartridge, and one can only assume it to be a response to complaints from Italian soldiers about the 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet's inability to seriously wound the people shot by it. Instead of making the "through and through" wound typical of 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullets, this thing would have made a horrendous wound typical of a shotgun wound, only worse. Not only would there be a spreading pattern of lead shot travelling through the victim, there would also be irregularly shaped bits of bullet jacket tearing things up, as well. It could only be worse if the nose of this "bullet" was capable of penetrating skull bone prior to the separation of the jacket. Note that records do not show that the Western Cartridge Company ever manufactured a 6.5 mm Carcano cartridge with a bullet resembling the multi-shot round.

Figure 5: Bottom is the “multi shot” round showing the cuts made on the projectile to facilitate it coming apart

The one funny looking projectile (with cuts on the side of the projectile) turned out to be a “multi shot” round. According to the Carcano website, the projectile actually is hollow and contains lead shot and it is not uncommon to run across these in surplus ammo.

Looking at the above photo, we can see that the "cuts" or scoring in the jacket wall do not begin until a point that is roughly 25% of the distance from the nose, leaving the nose intact. Although not visible, we can assume the scoring ends at about the point where the bullet enters the neck of the cartridge. I make this assumption for two reasons. 1) Scoring anything beyond what we see scored would be pointless, as the bullet jacket has been weakened more than enough (about 50% of the length of the jacket) to facilitate breaking up of the bullet 2) Scoring the bullet right to the base may weaken the jacket severely and deform it to the point it will not fly true to the target.

Looking again at CE 567 and CE 569, we have to ask the question; would a 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet, deeply scored on four sides in the fashion of the "multi-shot" round, be capable of penetrating JFK's skull and coming apart inside the skull? With the location of the scores, would it leave the nose of such a bullet in one piece, as seen in CE 567, and the jacket base in another piece, as seen in CE 569, yet cause the total disintegration of everything between the nose and the base?

"Failure to understand the evidence has no bearing on the validity of that evidence.

As a general rule, it merely means that one does not understand the evidence."

(Tom Purvis)

[Robert Prudhomme]

At 12:30 P.M., Nov. 22, 1963, JFK was supposedly struck in the back of the head with a bullet fired from six stories up in the Texas School Book Depository, at a range of approximately 88 yards. The bullet was fired from a 6.5x52 mm Carcano M91/38 short rifle and was a full metal jacket bullet with an extraordinarily thick jacket about 1 mm thick, typical of 6.5 mm Carcano bullets.

What happened to that 6.5 mm Carcano bullet is so unusual, experts to this day can neither recreate it or explain it. As I pointed out in a previous thread, the walls of the 6.5 mm Carcano and the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer FMJ bullets are so thick, they were used for head shots to elephants as the strong bullets resisted deformation and breakup while travelling through the thick elephant skull bones.

So, what happened? Why didn't the 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet stay together, travel through JFK's head and exit his face, as one would expect this bullet to do?

Mr. Craig Lamson has tried to suggest that, out of four 6.5 mm Carcano cartridges (made by the Western Cartridge Co., USA) in Oswald's possession that day, one bullet had its nose drilled or scored deeply enough, prior to being fired, to make it into a fragmenting hollow point bullet. As luck would have it, according to Mr. Lamson, this just happened to be the bullet that made contact with JFK's head with such explosive results.

While it is highly unlikely that Oswald would only doctor the nose of one out of four bullets in this fashion, there is something else drastically wrong with this theory. It is something that has bothered me for years and it is now time to share with you what I believe actually occurred.

Below are links to two Warren Commission evidence photos, that of CE 567 and CE 569. According to investigators, these were the only two bullet fragments of any size or note found in the limousine.

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee363/Traveller111/Photo_naraevid_CE567-1_zps089fc93d.jpg

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee363/Traveller111/Photo_naraevid_CE569-2_zps7a247a7c.jpg

CE 567 is presumably the nose sction of the 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet that struck the rear of JFK's head, while CE 569 is the jacket base of the same bullet. Both were supposedly found in the front of the limousine, following the assassination. Noticeably absent are the lead and bullet jacket from that section of the bullet between CE 567 and CE 569.

Though badly deformed and split, the nose of the bullet (CE 567) was still in one piece. This fact alone tells me that the bullet that struck JFK in the head was not modified into being a fragmenting bullet in the normal fashion by drilling or slicing into the copper jacket of the nose until the lead core is exposed. If it had been altered in such a fashion, it would never have been found in one piece, as portrayed by CE 567, but would have been in many pieces; all quite small.

So, if the bullet that struck JFK's head was a fragmenting bullet (and I see no other possibility) and CE 567 precludes the alteration of its nose to make it a fragmenting bullet, how did it fragment? I'm delighted that you asked.

Pictured below is a rare 6.5 mm Carcano cartridge manufactured for the Italian military called a "multi-shot" cartridge. While I do not believe this type of round, which actually contained lead shot within a hollow jacket, was the type that struck JFK, I believe the method used to cause the jacket of this bullet to come apart was also used to facilitate the breaking up of the round that struck JFK's head. Little seems to be known about the multi-shot cartridge, and one can only assume it to be a response to complaints from Italian soldiers about the 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet's inability to seriously wound the people shot by it. Instead of making the "through and through" wound typical of 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullets, this thing would have made a horrendous wound typical of a shotgun wound, only worse. Not only would there be a spreading pattern of lead shot travelling through the victim, there would also be irregularly shaped bits of bullet jacket tearing things up, as well. It could only be worse if the nose of this "bullet" was capable of penetrating skull bone prior to the separation of the jacket. Note that records do not show that the Western Cartridge Company ever manufactured a 6.5 mm Carcano cartridge with a bullet resembling the multi-shot round.

Figure 5: Bottom is the “multi shot” round showing the cuts made on the projectile to facilitate it coming apart

The one funny looking projectile (with cuts on the side of the projectile) turned out to be a “multi shot” round. According to the Carcano website, the projectile actually is hollow and contains lead shot and it is not uncommon to run across these in surplus ammo.

Looking at the above photo, we can see that the "cuts" or scoring in the jacket wall do not begin until a point that is roughly 25% of the distance from the nose, leaving the nose intact. Although not visible, we can assume the scoring ends at about the point where the bullet enters the neck of the cartridge. I make this assumption for two reasons. 1) Scoring anything beyond what we see scored would be pointless, as the bullet jacket has been weakened more than enough (about 50% of the length of the jacket) to facilitate breaking up of the bullet 2) Scoring the bullet right to the base may weaken the jacket severely and deform it to the point it will not fly true to the target.

Looking again at CE 567 and CE 569, we have to ask the question; would a 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet, deeply scored on four sides in the fashion of the "multi-shot" round, be capable of penetrating JFK's skull and coming apart inside the skull? With the location of the scores, would it leave the nose of such a bullet in one piece, as seen in CE 567, and the jacket base in another piece, as seen in CE 569, yet cause the total disintegration of everything between the nose and the base?

"Failure to understand the evidence has no bearing on the validity of that evidence.

As a general rule, it merely means that one does not understand the evidence."

(Tom Purvis)

Indeed. Might I point out that I have seen hollow point bullets that have travelled through the brains of deer that were more intact than the full metal jacket bullet that travelled through the brain of JFK?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

At 12:30 P.M., Nov. 22, 1963, JFK was supposedly struck in the back of the head with a bullet fired from six stories up in the Texas School Book Depository, at a range of approximately 88 yards. The bullet was fired from a 6.5x52 mm Carcano M91/38 short rifle and was a full metal jacket bullet with an extraordinarily thick jacket about 1 mm thick, typical of 6.5 mm Carcano bullets.

What happened to that 6.5 mm Carcano bullet is so unusual, experts to this day can neither recreate it or explain it. As I pointed out in a previous thread, the walls of the 6.5 mm Carcano and the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer FMJ bullets are so thick, they were used for head shots to elephants as the strong bullets resisted deformation and breakup while travelling through the thick elephant skull bones.

So, what happened? Why didn't the 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet stay together, travel through JFK's head and exit his face, as one would expect this bullet to do?

Mr. Craig Lamson has tried to suggest that, out of four 6.5 mm Carcano cartridges (made by the Western Cartridge Co., USA) in Oswald's possession that day, one bullet had its nose drilled or scored deeply enough, prior to being fired, to make it into a fragmenting hollow point bullet. As luck would have it, according to Mr. Lamson, this just happened to be the bullet that made contact with JFK's head with such explosive results.

While it is highly unlikely that Oswald would only doctor the nose of one out of four bullets in this fashion, there is something else drastically wrong with this theory. It is something that has bothered me for years and it is now time to share with you what I believe actually occurred.

Below are links to two Warren Commission evidence photos, that of CE 567 and CE 569. According to investigators, these were the only two bullet fragments of any size or note found in the limousine.

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee363/Traveller111/Photo_naraevid_CE567-1_zps089fc93d.jpg

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee363/Traveller111/Photo_naraevid_CE569-2_zps7a247a7c.jpg

CE 567 is presumably the nose sction of the 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet that struck the rear of JFK's head, while CE 569 is the jacket base of the same bullet. Both were supposedly found in the front of the limousine, following the assassination. Noticeably absent are the lead and bullet jacket from that section of the bullet between CE 567 and CE 569.

Though badly deformed and split, the nose of the bullet (CE 567) was still in one piece. This fact alone tells me that the bullet that struck JFK in the head was not modified into being a fragmenting bullet in the normal fashion by drilling or slicing into the copper jacket of the nose until the lead core is exposed. If it had been altered in such a fashion, it would never have been found in one piece, as portrayed by CE 567, but would have been in many pieces; all quite small.

So, if the bullet that struck JFK's head was a fragmenting bullet (and I see no other possibility) and CE 567 precludes the alteration of its nose to make it a fragmenting bullet, how did it fragment? I'm delighted that you asked.

Pictured below is a rare 6.5 mm Carcano cartridge manufactured for the Italian military called a "multi-shot" cartridge. While I do not believe this type of round, which actually contained lead shot within a hollow jacket, was the type that struck JFK, I believe the method used to cause the jacket of this bullet to come apart was also used to facilitate the breaking up of the round that struck JFK's head. Little seems to be known about the multi-shot cartridge, and one can only assume it to be a response to complaints from Italian soldiers about the 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet's inability to seriously wound the people shot by it. Instead of making the "through and through" wound typical of 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullets, this thing would have made a horrendous wound typical of a shotgun wound, only worse. Not only would there be a spreading pattern of lead shot travelling through the victim, there would also be irregularly shaped bits of bullet jacket tearing things up, as well. It could only be worse if the nose of this "bullet" was capable of penetrating skull bone prior to the separation of the jacket. Note that records do not show that the Western Cartridge Company ever manufactured a 6.5 mm Carcano cartridge with a bullet resembling the multi-shot round.

Figure 5: Bottom is the “multi shot” round showing the cuts made on the projectile to facilitate it coming apart

The one funny looking projectile (with cuts on the side of the projectile) turned out to be a “multi shot” round. According to the Carcano website, the projectile actually is hollow and contains lead shot and it is not uncommon to run across these in surplus ammo.

Looking at the above photo, we can see that the "cuts" or scoring in the jacket wall do not begin until a point that is roughly 25% of the distance from the nose, leaving the nose intact. Although not visible, we can assume the scoring ends at about the point where the bullet enters the neck of the cartridge. I make this assumption for two reasons. 1) Scoring anything beyond what we see scored would be pointless, as the bullet jacket has been weakened more than enough (about 50% of the length of the jacket) to facilitate breaking up of the bullet 2) Scoring the bullet right to the base may weaken the jacket severely and deform it to the point it will not fly true to the target.

Looking again at CE 567 and CE 569, we have to ask the question; would a 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet, deeply scored on four sides in the fashion of the "multi-shot" round, be capable of penetrating JFK's skull and coming apart inside the skull? With the location of the scores, would it leave the nose of such a bullet in one piece, as seen in CE 567, and the jacket base in another piece, as seen in CE 569, yet cause the total disintegration of everything between the nose and the base?

"Failure to understand the evidence has no bearing on the validity of that evidence.

As a general rule, it merely means that one does not understand the evidence."

(Tom Purvis)

Indeed. Might I point out that I have seen hollow point bullets that have travelled through the brains of deer that were more intact than the full metal jacket bullet that travelled through the brain of JFK?

Which, should indicate to a prudent person, that the factual evidence requires an absolute examination.

Tom

P.S. Asking the questions is relatively simple, it is conducting the research to answer these questions that certainly gives "fits" to many.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Considering the little evidence available to us, and how adulterated most of that evidence is, is it little wonder that so many have "fits" at the prospect of conducting research in this case?

[Evan Marshall]

so this is less contentious than Jim D?