Where did CE 399 come to rest during the Shooting?

[Robert Prudhomme]

While there is much discussion about CE 399 travelling through JFK and striking JBC under the right armpit, I find there is not much discussion about just what happened to CE 399 after it exited just below JBC's right nipple.

Would anyone like to explain the path it took through JBC's right forearm, how it ended up in JBC's left thigh and how it was subsequently found intact outside of JBC's body?

[Chris Newton]

Robert,

It's a magic bullet. JBC's Surgeon stated during his press conference that it was still in his leg and had yet to have been removed but that it posed no danger to him at that time. DVP and the rest of the LN'ers have revealed that the surgeon had to have been mistaken because in "reality" the bullet must have already worked it's way out and fallen beneath the stretcher. Never mind that there were more fragments in his wrist that were not removed - magic bullets can reconstitute themselves (but only apparently for a short time because the fragment removed from the nose for testing is still missing).

Please get with the "program"

P.S. A magic bullet fragment of unknown size has probably gone to the grave with JBC in his femur.

edited to remove former "P.S." which was inaccurate - and had stated a magic fragment had been removed from JBC thigh.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Chris Newton

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Chris

So, just to be clear, was it stated by the WC that the entire bullet (CE 399) passed between the ulna and radius bones of JBC's right wrist and came to rest embedded in JBC's left thigh?

[Chris Newton]

Robert,

Yes and No.

The actual WC report itself doesn't describe the wound in any detail. The report merely obfuscates and discusses wether the projectile entered the front or back of the wrist and explains how the "Parkland Doctors" and ballistics tests determined that it had to be a non-pristine bullet based on cloth and tissue carried into the wound and velocity.

There is a footnote which leads the reader to the Index and subsequently the report of Dr. Charles Gregory who performed the wrist surgery:

"...rather oblique entry wound of approx. 2 cm along the dorsal aspect of the right wrist over the junction of the distal fourth of the radius and shaft..."

"... from the radial side of the bone to the bone itself where the fracture was encountered..."

"...two small fragments of bone removed.."

"...small bits of metal were encountered at various levels..."

"...wound of exit along the volar surface of the wrist about 2 cm above the flexion crease..."

Dr Shires Operative Record in the same Index indicates that x-rays revealed "...a bullet fragment which was embedded in the femur in the distal third..." and although the missile tract was explored and debrided there is no indication that this fragment was removed or how big or small it was.

So... the "entire bullet" didn't pass through the wrist (because it left a bunch of fragments) but technically you could say it "came to rest in the thigh" because it is embedded in the femur.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Chris Newton

[Chris Newton]

One interesting aspect, I checked Dr. Gregory's testimony and Specter points to the X-rays and claims the bullet fragment "is just below the surface" instead of embedded in the femur. Dr. Gregory never corrects him. In fact, every time Arlen brings up any aspect of his theory, Dr. Gregory just says "it's possible". I'm not shocked, there were no adversarial attorney's to cross or object to Specter's leading of witnesses. But I was thinking "yea, pigs could fly too, if you grafted wings big enough and raised them with eagles". The only way that Dr. Gregory could resolve 399 is to suggest it could have entered the wrist backwards (while tumbling). It's possible, Arlen!

[Robert Prudhomme]

As much as the WC counsels attempted to obfuscate the facts regarding JBC's wounds, in their zealous efforts to push the SBT, there are certain inarguable realities that cannot be dismissed. Chief among them is the x-ray of JBC's right forearm, wrist and hand, taken on 22/11/63, just prior to surgery.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/9/97/Photo_hsca_ex_85.jpg

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/9/90/Photo_hsca_ex_84.jpg

Take a good look at these x-rays and I will explain later today why I feel these x-rays are capable, by themselves, of totally debunking the SBT.

Note: In the second x-ray, we are looking at the underside of JBC's right forearm. His right thumb is on the right side of the x-ray and his palm is facing towards us.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Chris Newton]

Robert,

The "tumbling" aspect should prove the SBT impossible in of itself.

Consider this: If Dr. Gregory were correct and 399 was in fact tumbling when it entered the wrist, thereby allowing the fragments found to be left behind (which is the whole point of suggesting it entered backward), then it would have continued to tumble destroying the entire wrist and causing massive damage.

Dr. Gregory was examining 399 when he offered the supposition that the ONLY way the bullet could have remained pristine and deposited fragments was the "backward entry" aspect. The condition of 399 didn't allow for any other possibility.

What Specter wasn't about to do is blow his own theory away by asking if PHYSICS would allow the trajectory to alter again from a "tumbling" to a "linear" path.

Also consider that it wasn't tumbling when it hit the thigh or those wounds would have been more serious as well.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Chris Newton

[Robert Prudhomme]

Robert,

The "tumbling" aspect should prove the SBT impossible in of itself.

Consider this: If Dr. Gregory were correct and 399 was in fact tumbling when it entered the wrist, thereby allowing the fragments found to be left behind (which is the whole point of suggesting it entered backward), then it would have continued to tumble destroying the entire wrist and causing massive damage.

Dr. Gregory was examining 399 when he offered the supposition that the ONLY way the bullet could have remained pristine and deposited fragments was the "backward entry" aspect. The condition of 399 didn't allow for any other possibility.

What Specter wasn't about to do is blow his own theory away by asking if PHYSICS would allow the trajectory to alter again from a "tumbling" to a "linear" path.

Also consider that it wasn't tumbling when it hit the thigh or those wounds would have been more serious as well.

While I agree wholeheartedly with you that the tumbling-no tumbling magical path of CE 399, as presented by Arlen Specter, is an impossibility, I do not believe it possesses the SBT debunking properties of the x-rays of JBC's right wrist and forearm. While we cannot see what the bullet did between JBC's chest and his forearm, and it can be argued by WC supporters that "bullets do strange things", the x-rays are a capture in time and offer inarguable proof of what a bullet did to JBC.

Once again, the x-rays of JBC's forearm:

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/a/a0/Thumb_hsca_ex_84.jpg

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/c/c3/Thumb_hsca_ex_85.jpg

Looking at the second set of x-rays we see, on the right, a view of the back side of JBC's right hand (thumb on right side of x-ray) and forearm with the radius bone, as always, on the thumb side of the arm. This x-ray shows us quite clearly that CE 399 (or likely a completely different bullet) struck JBC's radius bone square on at what is likely the widest and thickest section of the distal end of the radius. If CE 399 did not penetrate and pass through the radius, and no one from the WC ever claimed it did, how did CE 399 manage to still pass between the radius and the ulna? Did it back up, move over an inch, and take another run at it? If the bullet did not go all the way through, then the only logical conclusion we can draw, from what is obviously such a square on strike, is that the radius bone stopped the bullet and it should have been found on the floor of the limousine.

The second problem these x-rays present is that the back side of JBC's forearm had to be 90° to the path of CE 399 to allow CE 399 to strike the radius as we see it in the x-rays. In fact, JBC's forearm had to be in this position even to allow CE 399 to pass cleanly between the radius and the ulna. Unfortunately, the human elbow does not rotate backwards far enough to allow anything remotely close to this alignment. Try this yourself. Place your forearm before you as if you were holding a Stetson in your lap, with your wrist just below your right nipple. Now, try to rotate your forearm backwards to present the back side of your wrist to the path of a bullet exiting below your right nipple. If you are like me and 99% of the people on this planet (conservative estimate), you can't do it.

Conclusion: The SBT is a myth. CE 399 could not have done the damage shown in the x-rays and still have been able to pass through JBC's wrist. It did not happen.

P.S. If JBC never let go of his Stetson, and CE 399 exited the palm side of his right wrist and went on to end up in his left thigh, shouldn't there be a bullet hole through the Stetson? It definitely would appear to be in the path of the bullet.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

Bump

[Blair Dobson]

"DVP and the rest of the LN'ers have revealed that the surgeon had to have been mistaken because in "reality" the bullet must have already worked it's way out and fallen beneath the stretcher."

LN'rs ( and some CT'rs ) suffer from a type of cognitive dissonance not uncommon with born again christians which I call "Toast Pareidolia" where they can see Jesus in the Wonder Bread.

You can't see Jaybus because you just aren't devout enough...or some other delusional rationale...it's probably your typos or something in your profile pic for example that precludes you from seeing what they see..

You simply don't spend enough time in your granmothers basement on the 486, surfing usenet on a 14.4 and arguing that it was a commie symp with a grudge to KNOW what they know in their hearts...

That facts are frangible...depending...

Interesting to note, if you have the patience to follow along with these types, you will see that they flip and flop on what evidence is evidence and what is "un-knowable conjecture".

One thread they are prosletyzing witness "A" until it is pointed out that they missed the part where witness "A" recanted....or was misqouted...then of course, they move on...

That is why you can't sit them down, set some rules and test their superior intellect in experiments like "the double blind test" or the like. They only understand being rewarded for bad behaviour. They don't understand a bounded debate or "rules" of conduct..

"That's my little David...my precious snowflake...what do those pesky teachers know anyway..." says mommy, handing out a cookie...

They are too impatient to be "right" instead of "correct" and as such are prone to fits of childish behaviour...

More LN'rs need to volunteer to sit in the Kennedy car while someone tries to prove their theory "correct".

That way, we will know for sure...

It's the only way....

Edited November 21, 2013 by Blair Dobson

[Chris Newton]

More LN'rs need to volunteer to sit in the Kennedy car while someone tries to prove their theory "correct".

Blair,

That'd make a great interactive Disney Ride. If I ever win the big one, I'll build a set with the TSBD, the overpass and the knoll in Orlando; run a limo past it on a rail and let the kiddies see if they can hit a LNer sitting in the JFK seat just once from the window. -For a chance to win an Uncle Cornpone doll, of course.

Robert,

P.S. If JBC never let go of his Stetson, and CE 399 exited the palm side of his right wrist and went on to end up in his left thigh, shouldn't there be a bullet hole through the Stetson? It definitely would appear to be in the path of the bullet.

That's very insightful! Where is the Stetson? I've never seen an evidence picture of it and, although it's been included in the debate many times, you're the first person that I know of that has pointed out it must have been damaged. Is it possible that the fibers purportedly found in the wound came from it and not the "Mohair" suit?

One more thing about 399:

If one shot missed and subsequently it's ricochet wounded Tague...

and 399 caused all the wounds other than the headshot...

How does the Limo get the obvious impact damage above the visor that seems to be caused by a whole bullet (the impact point being too "round and deep" to have been a fragment)?

Edited November 21, 2013 by Chris Newton

[Robert Prudhomme]

More LN'rs need to volunteer to sit in the Kennedy car while someone tries to prove their theory "correct".

Blair,

That'd make a great interactive Disney Ride. If I ever win the big one, I'll build a set with the TSBD, the overpass and the knoll in Orlando; run a limo past it on a rail and let the kiddies see if they can hit a LNer sitting in the JFK seat just once from the window. -For a chance to win an Uncle Cornpone doll, of course.

Robert,

P.S. If JBC never let go of his Stetson, and CE 399 exited the palm side of his right wrist and went on to end up in his left thigh, shouldn't there be a bullet hole through the Stetson? It definitely would appear to be in the path of the bullet.

That's very insightful! Where is the Stetson? I've never seen an evidence picture of it and, although it's been included in the debate many times, you're the first person that I know of that has pointed out it must have been damaged. Is it possible that the fibers purportedly found in the wound came from it and not the "Mohair" suit?

One more thing about 399:

If one shot missed and subsequently it's ricochet wounded Tague...

and 399 caused all the wounds other than the headshot...

How does the Limo get the obvious impact damage above the visor that seems to be caused by a whole bullet (the impact point being too "round and deep" to have been a fragment)?

The cartoons made by the Lame Nuts tend to show the Stetson being held, by its brim, in the very tips of JBC's fingers and thumbs. This conveniently places the Stetson well out of the way of the path of CE 399 on its way from JBC's right wrist to his left thigh. I believe this to be pure imagination on the LN part as, having known a few cowboys in my time, I know it is customary to hold a Stetson in one's lap by the crown, as holding it by the brim will let its weight bend the brim and ruin the hat. Of course, though, if JBC had held his Stetson by the crown, there would have been a bullet hole through it.

Two questions:

Does anyone know what became of JBC's Stetson?

Has anyone analyzed the Zapruder film carefully enough to determine how JBC was holding his Stetson?

[David Josephs]

Can we PLEASE stop talking as if CE399 was ever in Dallas... it was not... unless someone can provide ANY EVIDENCE to that effect.

CE399 was fired either into water or cotton and given to Frazier by Todd....

Where did TODD get it?

Rowley cannot ID the bullet as the one he got from Johnson, Johnson cannot ID the bullet as the one he GAVE to Rowley...

It was not at Parkland, it was NOT in Tomliinsons's hands, NOT with Wright, NOT with Johnson, NOT the one given to Rowley by Johnson...

and NOT the bullet Rowley gives Todd.... yet IS the bullet Todd and Frazier's team initials... and IS the bullet that required no cleaning

Mr. EISENBERG - Did you prepare the bullet in any way for examination? That is, did you clean it or in any way alter it?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it was not necessary. The bullet was clean and it was not necessary to change it in any way.
Mr. EISENBERG - There was no blood or similar material on the bullet when you received it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not any which would interfere with the examination, no, sir. Now there may have been slight traces which could have been removed just ,in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually clean blood or tissue off of the bullet.

Are we also aware that the WCR tells us in order for fragments to have been left in JC at all, these fragments could ONLY come from the rear of the bullet..... which in turn means it would have to come in contact (the rear of the bullet) with these surfaces to have left anything...

My understanding of the wrist injury is that that injury would actually cause the hand to clinch and stay clenched... not fly open... THAT is why JC holds his hat thru the entire thing... they had to pry it from his hands...

I am sorry I don't have a source at my fingertips... but know I looked into it a while back... in most cases traumatic injury casues the contraction of muscles not the expansion or opening of them...

On the flip side... has there been any corroboration that the injury would cause him to open his hand ??

Robert - I've checked the testimonies of Mr and Mrs, and the nurses who brought him in... no mention of the hat....

When the time finally arrives when the JFK community finally accepts that NONE OF THE EVIDENCE OFFERED IS ACCURATE we can stop pretending to fit the square peg in the round holes.

one last time for those who missed it: this is much worse than the Katzen bach memo... this is AFTER they have already collected quite a lot of info...

Needless to say, the FBI reports are taken basically verbatim and becomes the core of the WCR... and the SS report is just a joke.

April 27, 1964

MEMORANDUM

TO: J. Lee Rankin

FROM: Norman Redlich

<snip>

We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine

whether the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to

frame 190. We could locate the position on the ground which

corresponds to this frame and it would then be our intent to establish

by photography that the assassin would have fired the first shot at the

President prior to this point. Our intention is not to establish the

point with complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the

hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole

assassin.

I had always assumed that our final report would be

accompanied by a surveyor's diagram which would indicate the

approximate location of the three shots. We certainly cannot prepare

such a diagram without establishing that we are describing an

occurrence which is physically possible. Our failure to do this will,

in my opinion, place this Report in jeopardy since it is a certainty

that others will examine the Zapruder films and raise the same

questions which have been raised by our examination of the films. If

we do not attempt to answer these observable facts, others may answer

them with facts which challenge our most basic assumptions, or with

fanciful theories based on our unwillingness to test our assumptions

by the investigatory methods available to us.

I should add that the facts which we now have in our

possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and

Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will

present a completely misleading picture.

Edited November 23, 2013 by David Josephs

[Blair Dobson]

"My understanding of the wrist injury is that that injury would actually cause the hand to clinch and stay clenched... not fly open... THAT is why JC holds his hat thru the entire thing... they had to pry it from his hands..."

an aside, a coworker of mine shot a hilti nail through his wrist at roughly the same point as Connallys injury...his hand went limp.

not arguing, but just pointing out it's different in each case.

I have had boxers break for example in both my hands..

the last time, my hand went into a deathgrip and in order to put a splint on it, i had to pry my other fingers open..like it was cramped in place..painful too...

but with the other hand, outside of swelling and pain, it remained mosly useable so...

just sayin...

Edited November 23, 2013 by Blair Dobson

[Robert Prudhomme]

Quote from David Josephs:

"Are we also aware that the WCR tells us in order for fragments to have been left in JC at all, these fragments could ONLY come from the rear of the bullet..... which in turn means it would have to come in contact (the rear of the bullet) with these surfaces to have left anything... "

This is not actually a fair statement, Dave. Full metal jacket bullets are designed to wound and not necessarily kill. Whether this is for humanitarian reasons or whether it takes more resources to deal with a wounded soldier than a dead one, it is hard to say.

Nevertheless, FMJ bullets are designed to resist expanding or coming apart and, thus, causing great grievous wounds. One of the features that make this possible is the hard copper nose, as opposed to a soft lead nose, that prevents the FMJ bullet tip from expanding as it travels through flesh. Another feature is the open base of the FMJ bullet that exposes the lead core.

Think of an FMJ bullet as a tube of toothpaste, with the soft malleable lead core being the paste. As FMJ bullets travel through flesh and begin to flatten and deform, the space inside of the jacket begins to get smaller. The lead "paste" inside the jacket, being incompressible, needs somewhere to go or pressures inside the jacket will elevate until the jacket ruptures and the bullet comes apart, making a very large mess. If the jacket completely encapsulated the lead core, FMJ bullets would come apart completely when shot into people. The open base of the jacket acts a "pressure relief valve". Instead of internal pressures elevating, lead is squeezed out the base and shed in flakes behind the bullet. Several of these flakes can be seen in x-rays of JBC's wrist.

The bigger question to me is how the bullet hit the radius bone of JBC's right wrist square on when it is physically impossible for a man to turn his forearm back to this position, if we are to entertain that the Magic Bullet exited JBC's chest where it did.

Even more puzzling is, how did the Magic Bullet hit the back side of JBC's radius bone in his right forearm square on, not penetrate the radius bone, and still somehow manage to pass between the radius and ulna bone? The bullet had to have come to a complete stop and fallen from JBC's wrist; there is no other possibility.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme