James Richards Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 I realize the following is a difficult question, but does anyone know where in Dealey Plaza the following is? James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanet Clark Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 (edited) James My estimate would be around the Dallas Textile building, somewhere in the vicinity of the Elm/Houston/Main area. White granite corner building is a landmark. Does Robardeau have an orange firetruck being used for crowd control?-- that is the major landmark. Notes: Crowd of seventy people in twenty yard span--parade route. The Fire truck is visible, with a dallas [?] squad car and an unmarked white sedan. Three men with their back to the camera. The crew cut looks familiar...can't tell much though. Shanet Edited November 4, 2004 by Shanet Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted November 4, 2004 Author Share Posted November 4, 2004 Hi Shanet, It does indeed seem that the location is on Houston near the corner of Elm near the TSBD. Many thanks to yourself, Bernice Moore, Lee Forman and Jack White. Cheers, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Dankbaar Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 James, Why is the subject line "Three tramps"? Wim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted November 4, 2004 Author Share Posted November 4, 2004 I was informed by Gary Mack that the frames I used came from a film shot by Charles Mentesana. This would have been at about 1.30 from the corner of Main and Houston looking South West. Penn Jones claimed this section showed the 3 Tramps which apparently is not true. Gary said the Tramp photos were taken around 2.15 to 2.20. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted November 4, 2004 Author Share Posted November 4, 2004 A correction from Gary. The film was shot from the northeast corner of Elm & Houston. Thanks to all. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanet Clark Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 A correction from Gary. The film was shot from the northeast corner of Elm & Houston.Thanks to all. James <{POST_SNAPBACK}> James, so it is at Elm and Houston a good while after the shooting. Do you think the man in the jacket looks like the Harrelson/Sturgis figure? His jacket looks too short in this photo, and where are his buddies? So I agree with Wim, this isn't really a Three Tramps photo. Isn't the crowd there still lined up, wasn't that the corner that had tracy barnes and des fitzgerald "cognates" garry hemmings, you have makes on a bunch of known "miami/mexico city station" types right there at 12.30, on the turn between Main Elm and Houston, the fatal detour, don't you? Shanet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted November 5, 2004 Author Share Posted November 5, 2004 Hi Shanet, The guy in the bottom row of photos I had wrongly assumed was the 'Frenchy' tramp. Never mind, we move on. The corner where our look-a-likes positioned themselves is about a block away if I haven't confused myself completely. I guess this is an example of taking for granted identifcations made by others. I will try not to make that mistake again. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanet Clark Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Hi Shanet,The guy in the bottom row of photos I had wrongly assumed was the 'Frenchy' tramp. Never mind, we move on. The corner where our look-a-likes positioned themselves is about a block away if I haven't confused myself completely. I guess this is an example of taking for granted identifcations made by others. I will try not to make that mistake again. James <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Keep bringing on the good photo evidence...what do you thnk of Holt's story about being up in the railway car with a radio and the other two tramps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted November 5, 2004 Author Share Posted November 5, 2004 Shanet, I try to keep an open mind to all possibilities. My opinions on the Tramps has evolved over the years and one thing I will say is that I agree the Tall Tramp was Charles Harrelson. I do not believe Harrelson was a part of the assassination team itself but as an actor. Kind of an irony given what his son attempts to do with varying degrees of success. I do not believe the Old Tramp was Holt. FWIW. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanet Clark Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 (edited) Shanet,I try to keep an open mind to all possibilities. My opinions on the Tramps has evolved over the years and one thing I will say is that I agree the Tall Tramp was Charles Harrelson. I do not believe Harrelson was a part of the assassination team itself but as an actor. Kind of an irony given what his son attempts to do with varying degrees of success. I do not believe the Old Tramp was Holt. FWIW. James <{POST_SNAPBACK}> James Thanks for a straight answer on the three tramps identity. You think Charles Harrelson is strong, and Chauncey Holt less so. Wim has a lot invested in Holt, very committed to that, and he does look like the old bugger in the films...Howard Hunt resembles him less than Holt, but Holt's story ...not so compelling. Well, you know Woody Harrelson was a great National League shortstop, Cardinals or Cubs, I think...Charles named his kid (tv.cheers) after the baseball player...but Charles Harrelson confessed... What do you mean Look-alikes? I thought they were the principal players gathered to witness and participate...back on Main Street where it was safe and the parade was supposed to go through...we'll hear about the group gathering during the online conf....like mccord and barnes, lookalikes? shanet Edited November 5, 2004 by Shanet Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Carroll Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 (edited) My opinions on the Tramps has evolved over the years and one thing I will say is that I agree the Tall Tramp was Charles Harrelson.I do not believe Harrelson was a part of the assassination team itself but as an actor.... I do not believe the Old Tramp was Holt. FWIW. James <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree with James that Harrelson is the tall tramp; IMO brought to the Plaza under the guise of the gunrunning operation upon which the assassination team piggy-backed. Regarding Holt, he was the first to raise the Agatha Christie-type scenario of the Plaza being peppered with potential patsies and incriminatingly misleading witnesses. Holt's background as a counterfeiter on the West Coast, along with his legit business providing i.d. cards and badges for LE, dovetails very well with the presence of numerous men flashing SS credentials, which is the essential element of his story's stated purpose for his presence being to deliver these SS credentials. These facts, coupled with his strong resemblance to the older tramp makes him at least as likely as Harrelson as being one of the tramps. As one of Oswald's daughters has asserted in recent years, the DPD records of this gunrunning operation, and the assertion that the boxcar in which the tramps were hiding was filled with munitions, could provide an important lead as to the presence and purpose of these men. Dismissing Holt based on photo impressions is one thing, but there can be no reasonable dismissal of his assertion that his expertise in creating false credentials fits with the strong witness testimony of SS agents flashing credentials that could not have been legitimate. He was the logical man for that job. Tim Edited November 5, 2004 by Tim Carroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Dankbaar Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Hi James and all, First of all , I have not "invested a lot" in Holt's story. But even if I had it is totally irrelevant. But I will say this: Holt is the strongest witness a JFK researcher can dream of. There's just a lot of his story that the public (thus also you) does not know. I believe there is a reason for that. I think James, as a fair and honest researcher, would quickly turn around once he would see the evidence. James, do you believe that Holt was the man with the sunglasses on the far right of the New Orleans picture with Oswald before the Trade Mart? See halfway this page: http://jfkmurdersolved.com/holt1.htm Do you notice the other ID's by Holt ? Leroy Young and Bud Belcher (son of Frank Belcher of the Belcher Aircraft family)? Do these names mean anything to you, James? Do you think they were not real persons? Do you believe Chauncey made them up? Why the hell is no researcher looking into this? The names that Holt mentions that have never been heard before in connection to this case, goes on and on and on: George Reynolds, Philip Twombly, Joseph Ball, Frank Belcher, Lloyd Cobb, Warren de Brueys, Thomas Davis and on and on. BTW, I just found another (half) interview with Holt on the net: I think it's very interesting and would appreciate some help in locating the other part. Unfortuanltely ther's a lot of typos in it, but that doesn't really matter: http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Marsh/Jfk-conspiracy/HOLT.TXT Wim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted November 5, 2004 Author Share Posted November 5, 2004 James, do you believe that Holt was the man with the sunglasses on the far right of the New Orleans picture with Oswald before the Trade Mart? (Wim) No I don't. I believe the man photographed was a Brigade 2506 member and connected to Alpha 66 with tentacles into the DRE. I do not know his name which is why I have not said too much regarding him. When I get his name, I will present what I have and his connections to the events in New Orleans. Do you notice the other ID's by Holt ? Leroy Young and Bud Belcher (son of Frank Belcher of the Belcher Aircraft family)? Do these names mean anything to you, James? Do you think they were not real persons? Do you believe Chauncey made them up? (Wim) The name Leroy Young is known to me. I believe these are real people and not made up. In that circle with Young you can add Hector Varone, Juan Peron, Dick Whatley and a Guatemala training camp. Yes these names are important as they link solidly to Manuel Artime and Tony Varona. You may be surprised with what I know about Holt. I do believe his story regarding his involvement with the forged SS identifications which were ordered by Twombly. However, I believe that the ID's were delivered before Holt says they were. That aside, there is much to be learned from Holt. I have no interest in trying to discredit anyone. There are solid elements of truth out there but it is like a shell game. One thing I know about Agency assets and contract employees, they never tell the full story. IMO. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted November 5, 2004 Author Share Posted November 5, 2004 What do you mean Look-alikes? I thought they were the principal players gathered to witness and participate... (Shanet Clark) Shanet, I refer to this gathering as look-a-likes as the only evidence that they might be directly associated with the Dealey Plaza operatives is a collection of fuzzy photographs taken at the corner of Main and Houston. I guess a mathematician could come up with some odds against remarkable Conein, Hemming, Robertson and Barnes look-a-likes all being positioned within 15 feet of each other. Add the not so convincing resemblances to David Morales, Ted Shackley, Eddie Bayo and Grayston Lynch and things get downright spooky. Anyway, until clear photographic evidence emerges, I'm afraid they will be known as look-a-likes. FWIW. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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