Evidence for the location of limo at moment first rifle shot is heard

[Mark Knight]

The yellow marks on the curb, I believe,were key markers in the assassination.

[Robert Prudhomme]

"Robert faces the challenge of explaining how shooters with high powered weapons could be shooting at JFK within feet or yards of the Hestors, Zapruder & Sitzman without causing them to literally 'jump out of their shoes'."

I'm not sure which Robert you are referring to, Brad, but, yes, that is an excellent point you make.

[Brad Milch]

Oops! I sincerely apologize for the confusion I caused. I meant Robert Maddy....His focus in this thread is on the pergola as a shooting platform. I forgot about Emmett Hudson & the other 2 fellows on the pergola steps. All of them literally would have 'jumped out of their skin' had something like a 30-30 been fired unexpectedly several feet behind them IMHO. It's different when weapons are known to be in the vicinity, shots are expected (as per a military firing line at small arms qualifications) and hearing protection is in place IMHO. for those requiring verification,ask anyone who has had a small arms weapon discharged unexpectedly near their unprotected ears how long they suffered a 'ringing' in their ears & hearing loss & what their reaction was when the shot was unexpectedly fired.

I believe Robert Prudhomme & others interested in small arms weapons would enjoy the YouTube videos posted on different train components detonating railroad torpedoes. It's amazing how similar they sound to a rifle shot. With enough of them placed in sequence it sounds like a machine gun spraying bullets as a train component rolls over them continuously. I believe some, if not all the 'gunfire' witnesses heard originated from such devices in the railyards. I can't prove it, but that's what I believe went down that day.

The YouTube videos can be found quickly by typing 'train torpedoes' or train detonators' into Y/T's search engine & activating it. I've emailed one of the JFK assassination channel contributors & encouraged him to put together a visual on the Pullman trains to visually explain what the late Jack White was working on when we lost him.

BM

Edited January 2, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Brad

Coincidentally, I worked as a railroad brakeman for a couple of years way back in the early 1970's, for both the Canadian Pacific Railroad and the British Columbia Railroad.Torpedoes are part of the brakeman's flagging kit, and are clipped onto the rails in two pairs 50 yards (or is it feet? Been a while) out a good distance from where the flagman has taken up his position to stop a train.

Yes, indeed, they are loud. I was in the locomotive of a northbound train just south of Williams Lake on the BCR. We were going through a 10 mph slow order, just crawling along in the summer heat on a hot locomotive (I was damn near falling asleep, to be honest LOL), when our lead wheels right under the cab rolled over a pair of torpedoes. The engineer had spotted them and was ready for them, but thought it would be amusing to watch his dozy brakeman go through the roof. Well, just like you said, I nearly jumped out of my skin when they went off, and the hogger had a good laugh at my expense.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Brad Milch]

duplicate post deleted.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Brad Milch]

I envy you, Robert. If I could live my life over I would find an avenue that got me into railroad employment. There's just something about trains that appeals to me, starting with my first Lionel train set many moons ago. Many words in the English language (such as 'deadbeat' & 'mule skinner') are attributed to railroad terminology (lingo). The railroads helped build America & provided employment for minorities at a time when little else was available.

You are in an elite group that is familiar with the sounds of train activity & I'm sure you are well accustomed to loud noises that occur regularly around train stations as locomotives hook up to railcars as well as the sound of 'torpedoes'. Many people are not that familiar with the sounds of train activity other than the sound of its horns or how similar the tornado sounded to it (LOL). It's often glossed over or ignored that JFK was driven past such a train station & I believe it's important to the story to focus on the rail yards as an important part of the overall scenario.

I hope Robert Maddy does not find fault with my comments; I didn't present them in an argumentive spirit or try to 'derail' his theory of pergola shooters. I'm merely pointing out that the pergola & the stockade fence are both on the Southern & Western perimeters of the rail yards. When Sheriff decker ordered his men into the rail yards, had he gotten out of Jesse Curry's white Ford Galaxie lead car following traversing the TUP & gone up the bridge embankment he would have been in the rail yards he ordered his men to report to. Decker was that close it. What he heard that impressed him the sounds of 'gunfire' originated in that area is important to understanding what happened IMHO. Decker might have even noticed Dan Rather standing nearby waiting to make his film drop.

I hope Robert Maddy doesn't take issue with anything I stated; I presented what some people are thinking but too timid to post about (perhaps?).

As you,know, I am an admirer of your work in the area of small arms, ballistics & ammo, Mr. Prudhomme. Everyone stands to learn a great deal from you.

Sincerely,

BM

Edited January 2, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Robert Mady]

Robert, why don't you first try to explain why almost everyone in this picture are on the ground AND looking toward the monument area?

Brad, are you going to defend that all these bystanders on Elm street are on the ground because of rail road torpedoes being ignited in a rail yard by someone with a brick?

[Robert Mady]

Robert, again I will ask you, the evidence posted on DTL thread provides proofs that the majority of witnesses located through out DP as well as outside of DP heard three rifle shots. Do you understand that your contention that witnesses heard different sounds as well as number of shots depending on where they were located is without foundation?

The evidence posted proves there were three rifle shots fired.

Evidence posted previously provides the proofs that the three rifle shots occurred starting at Z-313

Evidence posted previously provides the proofs that at least one 'firecracker' sounding shot occurred at about Z-189 in which only a few witnesses became aware of this noise and that no witnesses or SSA became alarmed by it or comprehended that KENNEDY had been wounded by it.

[Brad Milch]

I wasn't there, Robert (Maddy). Probably about the same time this Wilma Bond slide was snapped Sheriff Decker was ordering his men to the rail yards on the radio. Eugene Boone was also running towards the rail yards from where he was near the Main/Elm intersection. Newsman such as Darnell also would run past the pergola & film police & spectators around the Pullman cars in the rail yards. Murray & Beers would be snapping photos back there. A lot of people ran past the pergola and into the rail yards. I can say that because there is visual & audio evidence to support it & makes Lee Bowers & the porter Eugene Boone encountered by the Pullman cars that more important to getting a grip on what the heck happened in the rail yards when JFK was murdered on Elm Street.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Robert Mady]

Brad, where exactly were the shooters from behind, in which building or buildings were they and do you have compelling evidence to support the contention that a shot came from behind?

Brad, do you understand that there were at least 17 people in the TSBD during the shooting. No one reported seeing any strangers in the building.

The elevators were stuck on the 5th floor and the stairs were occupied by ADAMS and STYLES going down and BAKER and TRULY going up.

The connection to the roof was locked from the inside, meaning that a sniper shooting from within the TSBD could not have escaped via the roof.

NORMAN, WILLIAMS and JARMAN testified they did not hear ANY noise from movement on the sixth floor after the assassination.

[Robert Mady]

Brad, it is Mady with one d

How could three rifle shots come from the rail yards and hit the motorcade?

How did 'they' so perfectly time a rail road torpedo explosion with a fatal head shot from a silent weapon?

You do understand that there was a monument in between, trees, parked cars and the street slopped down and the limo was likely out of line of sight to the rail yards when the shots occurred?

Maybe DECKER was ordering his men to the rail yards because this would have been the perceived route for escape.

Also SORRELS riding in the same car as DECKER claimed the shots came from the monument area or 'terrace'.

[Brad Milch]

Sorry for the extra 'd' I accidentally gave you, Robert (Mady). I'm old, sometimes my fingers don't cooperate with this tired old brain I own.

I risked your possible wrath by posting what I did solely because I didn't see anyone else mentioning the rail yards. Something occurred in that area that drew the attention of a lot of people (some on police radios, some not).

As for rear shooters, I believe Pat Speer covers that nicely in his analysis posted on his website. Sherry Fiester has South Knoll shooter(s) posted in her analysis at her website. Other researchers have their opinions online & in books. Some believe Lee Oswald did it all solo. I simply draw a 360 degree circle around JFK's parade car on Elm Street & state with confidence that within that circle someone shot & killed him from somewhere in Dealey Plaza. That's the best I can do for not being present when the crime occurred & not seeing & hearing it happen myself.

Those viewing old film footage of Warren Commission members visiting Dealey Plaza in 1964 might notice some members visited portions of the rail yards. Some might notice Pullman train cars were still on site. It never occurred to the WC or HSCA or any of the TV re-enactments to position the Pullman cars as they were initially photographed during the ambush & determine if a shooter there had a line of sight to JFK on Elm Street. This is not unusual when so many 'experts' crowd the kettle in any subject. It is not too late to do such an inquiry now, 51 years after the fact.

I sometimes forget to follow Doug Horne's advise to 'steer clear of Dealey Plaza' & focus on what happened at Parkland & Bethesda & avoid the clash of opinions as to how the ambush went down when so many living witnesses that WERE there can't agree on exactly what happened.

I simply posted for the quiet ones, Robert.

BM

Edited January 2, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Robert Prudhomme]

I envy you, Robert. If I could live my life over I would find an avenue that got me into railroad employment. There's just something about trains that appeals to me, starting with my first Lionel train set many moons ago. Many words in the English language (such as 'deadbeat' & 'mule skinner') are attributed to railroad terminology (lingo). The railroads helped build America & provided employment for minorities at a time when little else was available.

You are in an elite group that is familiar with the sounds of train activity & I'm sure you are well accustomed to loud noises that occur regularly around train stations as locomotives hook up to railcars as well as the sound of 'torpedoes'. Many people are not that familiar with the sounds of train activity other than the sound of its horns or how similar the tornado sounded to it (LOL). It's often glossed over or ignored that JFK was driven past such a train station & I believe it's important to the story to focus on the rail yards as an important part of the overall scenario.

I hope Robert Maddy does not find fault with my comments; I didn't present them in an argumentive spirit or try to 'derail' his theory of pergola shooters. I'm merely pointing out that the pergola & the stockade fence are both on the Southern & Western perimeters of the rail yards. When Sheriff decker ordered his men into the rail yards, had he gotten out of Jesse Curry's white Ford Galaxie lead car following traversing the TUP & gone up the bridge embankment he would have been in the rail yards he ordered his men to report to. Decker was that close it. What he heard that impressed him the sounds of 'gunfire' originated in that area is important to understanding what happened IMHO. Decker might have even noticed Dan Rather standing nearby waiting to make his film drop.

I hope Robert Maddy doesn't take issue with anything I stated; I presented what some people are thinking but too timid to post about (perhaps?).

As you,know, I am an admirer of your work in the area of small arms, ballistics & ammo, Mr. Prudhomme. Everyone stands to learn a great deal from you.

Sincerely,

BM

I sometimes wish I'd been born early enough to have worked on steam locomotives. There's just something beautiful about them and their whistles that I never found in diesel locomotives.

[Brad Milch]

I agree, Robert (Prudhomme). Steam trains are fascinating, they take me back to the '60's TV show ‘Petticoat Junction’ & the rags to riches story of railroad baron Cornelius Vanderbilt (this led to the creation of Gloria Vanderbilt & her son, CNN's Anderson Cooper). My dad noticed my interest in Petticoat Junction; I tried to explain it was all about the little steam locomotive but he wasn't buying it at all. Several 'dating too young' lectures followed (lol). He need not worry, all my pre-teen buddies were warning me that girls had something mysterious called 'cooties'.

There are still unanswered questions about the Dealey Plaza train yards activity on 22 Nov 1963. In Mark Lane's film 'Rush To Judgment', one of the railmen on top of the TUP describes rounding the stockade fence corner after the shots & encountering a railroad detective. Lane didn't inquire as to what his name was nor interviewed him. Reference to this detective appears in witness testimony published in the WC & small TV interviews over the years. I've not read anything as to who this person was & why he was on the scene during JFK's ambush, have you? Did he file any after action reports with the railroad company? No one seems to know. He seems to be another person that witnessed the ambush that fell through the cracks afterwards.

The testimony of one of the two DPD officers stationed on top of the TUP stating a noisy train crossing the TUP during the shooting blocked his view of the ambush & the sounds of it is still published in the WC. No follow-up to verify this account was ever performed in Government investigations that I know of, do you? It's still 'hanging in the air' as far as I can tell.

I'm not certain of the proper description of the rail yards at Dealey Plaza at the time of the ambush. I've read it being described as a 'switching station' and also as a 'sub-station'. Do you have a better description of it (having worked for the railroads)?

The death of Lee Bowers after he left railroad employment still continues to intrigue. Now Eugene Boone tells of a Pullman car porter he encountered while investigating the rail yards after the ambush in his recent 6th Floor Museum interview posted at Y/T (Boone doesn't mention seeing the mud scrapings on the stockade fence or a car bumper that Sam 'Skinny' Holland told Mark Lane & Josiah Thompson about in interviews with both authors). This train porter is another person who has not been interviewed as to what he saw & heard during the attack of President Kennedy's life.

There is still much to learn about what went down in & around the railyards when JFK lost his life. Robert Mady's pergola shooters most likely would have made their escape via the rail yards. I've read comments that some people believe such shooters escaped via the motorcade itself.

BM

Edited January 3, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Robert Prudhomme]

I'm intrigued by the WC testimony of the DPD officer on the TUP who testified his view of the assassination was blocked by a train on the TUP. What was his name?