Evidence for the location of limo at moment first rifle shot is heard

[Chris Davidson]

Robert Prudhomme Quote: The reason for them wanting us to believe their version is obvious; the event had to be lengthened out in order to give one gunman the ability to effectively load and fire a bolt action rifle 3 times.

Mark Knight Quote: It shows that, the closer the WC came to the SBT, the more likely it was that any post-Z313 shots would "disappear.

Nice summations gentlemen.

If you combine these two quotes, you might get this result from start to finish.

Shot 1 2 3

Shot 1 2 3

Two groups of three shots with a common shot (witness descriptions) among them.

Or,

Shot 1 2 3

Shot 2 1

Two groups, 5 shots with a common shot (witness descriptions) among them.

Maybe James G. or Robert M. can chime in with some ballistics supporting earlier and/or later shots.

chris

[Robert Mady]

Mark, in other words, I can't tell researchers how the assassination occurred, they won't believe me.

They must discover the truth for themselves.

I am merely trying to point to evidence that can reveal the truth.

It is up to each researcher to analyze the pieces of evidence presented and understand what it means.

The biggest hurdle is cognitive dissonance which prevents us from leaving the comfort of conformity.

[Larry Hancock]

Well said Robert, Mark and Chris! Now it seems to be getting somewhere I can follow. Certainly its long been discussed that there were effectively two rounds of shooting, with some shots heard and some not by different witnesses. That also sits well with remarks about a "flurry" of shots and the thought of "lengthening" the shooting event fits well with the sort of subtle manipulation that could be done to make it appear that the shooting could be done by a single gunman.

A very interesting discussion.

[James R Gordon]

Chris,

you make a very good point.Researchers are inclined to describe X number of shots being fired in a particular sequence. However, the variance in the number and sequence of shots was a little more complex than just

1 2 3

1 2 3

As I have posted before the auditory features of Dealey Plaza allowed many versions of how many shots and what their sequence was.

East Plaza is up by Houston Street.

West Plaza is down by the tripple underpass.

Group 3 included around JFK's car.

Group 4 is widely dispersed throughout the plaza.

There is no universal account. Both groups 1 and 2 heard two shots close to each other. However those down by the underpass heard their single shot after the double whereas those up by Houston street hear the single shot before the double shot. Only group 4 heard two sets of two shots.

I would suggest that this variance in how many shots as well as what their sequence complicates matters a little.

James

[Robert Mady]

James, you are right that it has complicated matters but much of the confusion is deliberate due to propaganda.

In future thread I will cover myths in which I will present evidence showing that there was no confusion about the three rifle shots, other than a few people not discerning echoes from the sound of the rifle and a real possibility that the last two shots were so close together that some people honestly only registered hearing one shot not two, or they were busy ducking and did not register the third rifle shot. Also the FBI was not always truthful in their reports.

But the vast majority regardless of location heard three rifle shots.

Also there has been much confusion propagated by deceit or ignorance as to what people claimed to hear, such as the first shot was interpreted as a firecracker by some, not conceiving anyone could shoot at the President but after hearing three shots realizing they all sounded the same.

Also only 5 or 6 people were probably aware of the very first 'silent' shot, which the WC turned into just confused witnesses.

[Thomas Graves]

Interesting to read Jack Franzen's report to the FBI, from 24/11/63:

"He noticed the men, who were presumed to be Secret Service Agents, riding in the car directly behind the President's car, unloading from the car, some with firearms in their hands, and noticed police officers and these plainclothesmen [sic] running up the grassy slope across Elm St. from his location and toward a wooded and bushy area across Elm St. from him."

Interesting observation. Any other witness see this?

Maybe he confused Hill's jumping off the Queen Mary / cameramen jumping out of the press car / motorcycle policeman running up the grassy knoll for "Secret Service men running up the grassy knoll with guns in their hands."

--Tommy

Edited December 23, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Mark Knight]

Mr. Mady, I would remind you that those in agreement with you are probably LEAST likely to respond immediately. Those who disagree are usually "quick on the draw," because they are convinced you are wrong and want to show you "the error of your ways" ASAP.

If people DON'T respond to your posts, there are likely a couple of primary reasons: one, they have no idea what you're saying [although those responses would usually be right behind the ones from the people who are convinced you're wrong]; and two, they are weighing the evidence you have given them, have found no flaws to attack, and are waiting for further corroboration.

So the LACK of response SHOULD be ENCOURAGING, provided the readers are understanding what you're saying to begin with. So don't take that lack of response as criticism. The critics will gather like flies, and do so quickly. That's how forums such as this one seem to operate [reader-driven].

[James R Gordon]

Robert,

You have missed the point I am making.

First - assuming there were only three shots - three groups agree with you. However all three have a different understanding of the sequence. For one group it was three isolated shots. Another it was a single shot followed by a double shot. The third it was a double shot followed by a single. Then there is a fourth group that said there were two sets of two shots.

Basically, which I feel may be pertinent to this discussion, it is clear that depending where you were positioned in the plaza determined what you heard. If you were up by Houston street the first shot you heard was a single shot. However if you were down by the triple underpass you did not hear that shot. The first shots those by the triple underpass heard was a double shot. Possible the same double shot those up at Houston street heard after their first shot.

One problem is that - if both groups heard the same double shot - then there was a fourth shot. Because those down by the tripple underpass heard a single shot after their double shot. This shot, however, was not heard by those up by Houston street.

James

[Chris Davidson]

Chris,

you make a very good point.Researchers are inclined to describe X number of shots being fired in a particular sequence. However, the variance in the number and sequence of shots was a little more complex than just

1 2 3

1 2 3

As I have posted before the auditory features of Dealey Plaza allowed many versions of how many shots and what their sequence was.

East Plaza is up by Houston Street.

West Plaza is down by the tripple underpass.

Group 3 included around JFK's car.

Group 4 is widely dispersed throughout the plaza.

There is no universal account. Both groups 1 and 2 heard two shots close to each other. However those down by the underpass heard their single shot after the double whereas those up by Houston street hear the single shot before the double shot. Only group 4 heard two sets of two shots.

I would suggest that this variance in how many shots as well as what their sequence complicates matters a little.

James

James,

My reference would be to the 90ft distance laid out in CE560.

In other words, the WC determined the two shots within CE560 were 90ft apart and a missed shot (total of 3) among that mix.

Robert M. has a compressed matching set of 3 starting at Z313. I'm leaving out his described silent shot that occurred farther east up Elm, for now.

You do now know that the 1st and 2nd lamp-posts are 90ft apart.

I'm not trying to describe all shots, just what might set up a dual 3 shot scenario, within a certain time frame/distance span.

chris

Edited December 23, 2014 by Chris Davidson

[Chris Davidson]

I will further the CE560 (dual shot scenario) discussion in my topic.

chris

[Robert Prudhomme]

James and Chris

The breakdown you gentlemen have shown of what different groups of witnesses in different locations in Dealey Plaza heard during the assassination brings to light precisely what I have been attempting to say all along. I believe it is quite clear that a combination of suppressed and unsuppressed rifles was used by shooters in different locations, in order that each group of witnesses would hear something different than the next group. The confusion these conflicting eyewitness accounts generated has persisted for 51 years.

I only wish the members of this forum were wealthy enough to erect a mockup of Dealey Plaza in the desert somewhere, and we could hire a group of shooters to re-enact the assassination; crowd noise, motorcycles and all. I would dearly love to be standing on the sidewalk in front of the TSBD and learn for myself if it is possible to hear a bullet from a suppressed rifle in the Dal-Tex Building pass by, above the background noises.

[Robert Mady]

Robert and James, I posted a comprehensive analysis of witnesses experiences of shots heard on DTL thread, I am surprised that neither of you have taken the time to critique or comment on evidence posted since it completely debunks the statements that have been made on this thread concerning the sound of shots.

[Brad Milch]

Just as an argument can be made that earwitnesses were running PAST the pergola (and not TO it) and INTO THE RAIL YARDS behind the North pergola (as seen in the available amateur & newsmen videos), another argument can be made that the sounds they heard originated in the Rail Yards. At least 3 Pullman train cars connected together were parked behind the pergola & can be seen in numerous films & photos during & post-attack.

YouTube has several videos of trains running over 'railroad torpedoes' (rail road explosive signaling devices usually attached to a rail by 2 straps & detonated when the wheels of a train car run over it). They sound very similar to rifle shot(s) when detonated. The rail yards is where Sheriff Bill Decker directed his men, not to the pergola or the TSBD. Decker was in the white Ford lead car about to enter the TUP when the ambush took place (see Altgens7).

This is not to say the pergola housed no shooters. Shooters very easily could have run into the rail yards where a small sea of cars, trucks & campers were parked.

Focus should be on both the rail yards & the pergola IMHO. The late Jack White was working on his analysis that the Pullman cars moved during or immediately after the attack by someone releasing the brake. The cars could have run over railroad torpedoes placed to alert Lee Bowers (or the railroad detective on scene for some unexplained reason) that the Pullman cars were moving out of place. Railroad 'torpedoes' can be detonated by dropping a brick or heavy object on top of them. Recently a young person lost one of his hands by striking a railroad torpedo with a hammer.

The explosives used in railroad torpedoes produce smoke, gunpowder smell and a noise similar to a gun shot; the same items that ear & eyewitnesses reported.

I'm including this comment for those too timid to do so. I, like Pat Speer, believe a diversionary noise (or noises) similar to gunfire were a part of the ambush to allow rear building shooters to escape. It would not surprise me if the entire attack was carried out with silenced weapons & the 'gunfire' people heard was all diversionary sounds originating around the Pullman train cars behind the North pergola.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Jon G. Tidd]

One way to think about the assassination is that was the work of either inexperienced assassins or professional assassins.

Inexperienced assassins might have made mistakes professionals wouldn't have made. I don't perceive any mistakes in the assassination, so I believe it was the work of professionals. (I believe minor mistakes such as missed shots occurred but were easy to obscure.)

Professionals would choose their fields of fire carefully. They would exercise fire discipline. Someone or some persons (e.g., spotters) would need to signal the shooters when to begin and when to end shooting. There might have been a script. For example: FIRST ROUND OF SHOTS: one or more to the back of JFK's body, one or more to his side or front. SECOND ROUND OF SHOTS: If JFK appears other than surely dead after ROUND ONE, a second course of shots, same as the first.

I'm not asserting that was the script, only that there may well have been some such script.

A tight script isn't generally needed for Viet Nam jungle-type ambush. Typically in such an ambush, the ambushers sweep over the ambush field after the firing has ceased to collect weapons, documents, any prisoners. In Dallas, the ambushers would have a tougher job. They couldn't sweep over the limo on Elm Street to verify JFK was dead. Spotters, possibly a coordinator, would have to conduct and control the action. My guess is there was a script that began to play when the limo reached a certain point on Elm Street and that stopped playing when the limo reached another point.

The shooters, spotters, and coordinator would have been tightly focused. If there were diversionary sounds or other diversionary activities, they would have been created or carried out by persons not involved in the shooting itself.

The shooters would have had the weapons they needed. The weapons wouldn't necessarily have been the same. The shooters likely would not know each other in the sense of being a team. Each shooter likely would have a specific task according to script. It's easy for me to imagine one shooter had the task of shooting JFK in the back, with either a low-velocity or a frangible round, to establish shooting from behind the limo.

[Brad Milch]

I agree with you, Jon. It's obvious to a lot of people that something out of the ordinary was happening in the rail yards (this includes the stockade fence & North pergola structure IMO; both are on the Southern perimeter of the rail yards) just prior, during & after the attack. Out of state cars came into the area, people were noticed behind the stockade fence, a horde of spectators, police & newsmen were drawn to the area BEHIND the North pergola). Witnesses like Zapruder & the Newmans placed the 'gunfire' they heard from behind them. Something was going on back there.

One of the fallacies I believe some researchers & others interested in the case make is assuming what killers would or should have done or not done when the identity of the killers is not even known. Another fallacy is someone would have talked. A family psychologist taught her class in college that I attended years ago that the most common conspiracy involves family infidelity (particularly incest). at the time, she told us that his was a worldwide problem that often extends into participants marriages; sometimes even to the point of death. All the while repeating without anyone talking & revealing the conspiracy in all the years of involvement & post-activity.

For some, the yellow painted stripes on the south side of the Elm Street curb line is visual evidence of the actual kill zone the people that pulled this horrific crime off 51 years ago left for the ages to ponder.

Like you, Jon, I have no faith at all in the validly of the Zapruder film or any other visual evidence that passed thru the hands of those working for or with the Government of the time. As I recall, it was Life magazine calling the shots initially on how the shooting went down because it had bought the Zapruder film. For a long time, some of us older folks waited for visible proof that JFK had turned around in his seat & looked back at the TSBD at the moment he was shot in the throat. Why? Because Life magazine told us that was in the film. It wasn't.

New information is still developing on the rail yards: in a recent 6th Floor Museum interview (posted at YouTube), Deputy Eugene Boone describes running to & investigating the rail yards & encountering a porter outside one of the Pullman cars parked on a track. His name, what he saw & heard during the attack & what became of him later at this time is not known. Boone didn't hear Decker's call for his officers to report to the rail yards on the radio; Boone ran there because that's where the 'gunfire' sounded to him where it originated from.

Robert faces the challenge of explaining how shooters with high powered weapons could be shooting at JFK within feet or yards of the Hestors, Zapruder & Sitzman without causing them to literally 'jump out of their shoes'.

BM

Edited January 2, 2015 by Brad Milch