LBJ's War: Vietnam

[Greg Burnham]

LBJ's War: Vietnam -- 50 Years Ago This Day

by Greg Burnham

[Jon G. Tidd]

Greg,

I saw Viet Nam up close and personal. In the past, I had PTSD or whatever when a helicopter flew over.

The Viet Cong weren't communist? All I can say from my knowledge is, wrong.

[Tom Hume]

Jon,

I was there too, for a couple of hundred air combat missions in country, and I regard my service as a disgraceful period of my life. I came away believing that we, the United States, perpetrated an immoral capitalist travesty, turning a paradise into a wasteland strewn with dead and maimed little brown people so that rich white guys could sit around the pool and open their fat dividend checks.

Who were the Viet Cong? In some ways, people like me.

Tom

Edited March 10, 2015 by Tom Hume

[Cliff Varnell]

Not to nitpick, but...

Burnham:

<quote on>

It should be noted that President Diem (the first President of SOUTH Vietnam) was a Roman Catholic and was a native of NORTH Vietnam, born in Tỉnh Quảng Bình. Indeed, one of his brothers (Thuc) was a Roman Catholic Bishop in North Vietnam!<quote off>

Ngo Dinh Thuc was a Roman Catholic Bishop in Hue, SoVN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ng%C3%B4_%C4%90%C3%ACnh_Th%E1%BB%A5c

[Cliff Varnell]

Burnham:

There was NO connection between the Communist GOVERNMENT of North Vietnam and the Viet Cong “underground” of South Vietnam.

Me: What about the traffic on the Ho Chi Minh Trail?

[Greg Burnham]

Thanks Cliff.

A better descriptor would have been: Central Vietnam -- it sits nearly on top of the 17th parallel-- but technically it is south.

[Greg Burnham]

Burnham:

There was NO connection between the Communist GOVERNMENT of North Vietnam and the Viet Cong “underground” of South Vietnam.

Me: What about the traffic on the Ho Chi Minh Trail?

Thanks for catching the word I omitted. It should read "There was no ideological connection..." -- I made the correction.

[Harry J.Dean]

VIETNAMESE

We have seen the endless blaze

Emitting from your land

Watched you crouch in fear

Of your countrymen and mine

Not French or Yank turned willing tread

To slay you or to die

The greed of Godless men planned your fate

And our own

"Our brothers" they oft proclaim it

Ensnared us in that lawless horror

Your fear is our fear-your death our death

We are the people!

© H. J. Dean

[Greg Burnham]

Greg,

I saw Viet Nam up close and personal. In the past, I had PTSD or whatever when a helicopter flew over.

The Viet Cong weren't communist? All I can say from my knowledge is, wrong.

Jon,

Thank you for your service--notwithstanding the immorality within the hearts of those who fomented the war.

As Tom Skerritt's character, "Viper," opined to the pilots in the movie, Top Gun: "Now, we don't make policy here, gentlemen. Elected officials, civilians, do that. We are the instruments of that policy."

I mean no disrespect toward those who answered the call to duty. I acknowledge that the bullets you and others who served with you faced posed a grave danger.

However, the pajama clad, slant eyed men pulling the triggers were not Communists. They were farmers by heritage, underground freedom fighters by duty, and saboteurs by last resort.

Unfortunately, the PTSD from which you suffered--and I am sorry to hear of your pain--appears to be associated with helicopters piloted not by Viet Cong, but by Americans who, through no fault of their own, shouldn't have been forced to be there to begin with.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Greg Burnham

[Greg Burnham]

VIETNAMESE

We have seen the endless blaze

Emitting from your land

Watched you crouch in fear

Of your countrymen and mine

Not French or Yank turned willing tread

To slay you or to die

The greed of Godless men planned your fate

And our own

"Our brothers" they oft proclaim it

Ensnared us in that lawless horror

Your fear is our fear-your death our death

We are the people!

© H. J. Dean

Thanks for sharing that, Harry.

"When power corrupts, poetry cleanses." -- JFK

[Greg Burnham]

I encourage those interested in the subject to read JFK's speech, of 1954, while he was yet a Senator. Revisionist history has often erroneously cited his administration as having started the Vietnam war. And likewise, following his assassination, revisionist "secret" history sought to place the blame for escalation of that war on JFK. Yet, truth be told, JFK was always opposed to our presence in Indochina. He spoke rather forcefully against it, first while a member of the House of Representatives, and again later, while he was a Senator, he laid out one of the best cases AGAINST our becoming entrenched in Vietnam that was ever written BEFORE the fact.

In part he said the following:

"I am frankly of the belief that no amount of American military assistance in Indochina can conquer an enemy which is everywhere and at the same time nowhere, “an enemy of the people” which has the sympathy and covert support of the people. As succinctly stated by the report of the Judd Subcommittee of the House Foreign Affairs Committee in January of this year:

“Until political independence has been achieved, an effective fighting force from the associated states cannot be expected. … The apathy of the local population to the menace of the Viet Minh communism disguised as nationalism is the most discouraging aspect of the situation. That can only be overcome through the grant of complete independence to each of the associated states. Only for such a cause as their own freedom will people make the heroic effort necessary to win this kind of struggle.”

This is an analysis which is shared, if in some instances grudgingly, by most American observers. Moreover, without political independence for the associated states, the other Asiatic nations have made it clear that they regard this as a war of colonialism; and the “united action” which is said to be so desperately needed for victory in that area is likely to end up as unilateral action by our own country. Such intervention, without participation by the armed forces of the other nations of Asia, without the support of the great masses of the peoples of the associated states, with increasing reluctance and discouragement on the part of the French – and, I might add, with hordes of Chinese Communist troops poised just across the border in anticipation of our unilateral entry into their kind of battleground – such intervention, Mr. President, would be virtually impossible in the type of military situation which prevails in Indochina.

This is not a new point, of course. In November of 1951, I reported upon my return from the Far East as follows:

“In Indochina we have allied ourselves to the desperate effort of a French regime to hang on to the remnants of empire. There is no broad, general support of the native Vietnam Government among the people of that area. To check the southern drive of communism makes sense but not only through reliance on the force of arms. The task is rather to build strong native non-Communist sentiment within these areas and rely on that as a spearhead of defense rather than upon the legions of General de Lattre. To do this apart from and in defiance of innately nationalistic aims spells foredoomed failure.”

Edited March 10, 2015 by Greg Burnham

[Jon G. Tidd]

Tom Hume,

Thanks for your comment.

Where and when were you in country? With what unit? What was your job (sounds scary)?

I served in III Corps, 15 Sep 71 - 14 Sep 72, with the 525th Military Intelligence Group. Got to Saigon quite often. Also visited some interesting places -- An Loc, Loc Ninh, Xuan Loc, Vung Tau, etc. Was stationed for awhile in Tay Ninh. Beautiful country. Relatively safe during daylight until the Easter Offensive, launched on 30 April 72. Then things got hairy around Tay Ninh and definitely in and around An Loc (where there was a huge, prolonged battle) and Loc Ninh (which was overrun).

Part of my job part of the time I was there was to keep tabs on the 5th VC Division. It was called the 5th VC Division for historical reasons. When I was tracking it, it was basically all-NVA. Also received information on the 7th and Ninth Divisions and the 101st Independent Regiment, which operated in and around Cu Chi (site of the now well-known Cu Chi tunnels).

By the time I arrived in country, most of the VC had been wiped out, principally in Tet 1968. But there was still plenty of VC activity in the villages and countryside, especially at night. A guy in my unit was recruited, voluntarily, by the CIA to participate in activities aimed at getting information about and from the VC in certain villages. He was a good NCO, a lifer, who had some interesting tales to tell when I accidentally encountered him here back in the States in December 1972.

[Cliff Varnell]

Greg, this section might give a student new to the subject the impression Diem was in power in 1965. See if this couldn't use a tweak:

<quote on, emphasis added here* and here*>

The official history, reported on events toward the end of 1965, includes the following:

December 25, 1965 – The second pause in the bombing of North Vietnam occurs. This will last for 37 days while

*the U.S. attempts to pressure North Vietnam into a negotiated peace

. However, the North Vietnamese denounce the bombing halt as a “trick” and continue Viet Cong terrorist activities in the South.

As a point of fact, the Viet Cong were not comprised of “North Vietnamese” natives nor were they “operatives” from Hanoi nor did they “take orders” from the “Government” of North Vietnam.

Therefore, the continued attacks by the Viet Cong were wholly separate from the alleged “suspicions held by Hanoi that it was being tricked by our ceasing the bombings in the North.” There was no ideological connection between the Communist GOVERNMENT of North Vietnam and the Viet Cong “underground” of South Vietnam.

*Moreover, even if the Government of North Vietnam had agreed to a negotiated peace with both the US and with the Government of South Vietnam (Diem) — the Viet Cong would still have continued their resistance against the Diem Regime and against US troop presence in their country! The Viet Cong were not Communists. They were anti-Diem due to his oppression; anti-Northern (Catholic) “refugee” invaders (due to the displacement their presence caused); and anti-US troops (as we were viewed as supporting Diem). They NEVER were “pro-Communist” notwithstanding US propaganda to the contrary.<quote off>

See whatta mean?

Edited March 10, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Greg Burnham]

Thanks again, Cliff. Another good catch!

[Cliff Varnell]

Thanks again, Cliff. Another good catch!

Let's talk about the Bay of Pigs...I gotta million of 'em!